Twosome Troubles of Troublesome Two

gymnosophist #23

Glad to learn one of your cousins is married to a Dalit lady, and here`s wishing them happiness and prosperity. I wonder what she would have to say though about your going around daring us Pakistanis to marry Dalit girls (as if Dalit girls have some kind of a handicap).

Re: sadna #111

I very much agree that the Indian government is doing quite a lot more for the Dalits than the Pakistan government is doing for the Ahmadis. And I am fully aware of all that you just mentioned. However, one must not oversee the fact that the reason I brought it up was to equate the injustice brought down on a certain sect. Ahmadis are a very small minority in Pakistan and unfortunate as it is, their voices can be overpowered by much larger fraction. I, myself being a Shia, know the brunt of it, but am still very happy and proud to be part of Pakistan, as do many other Shias. For the record, most of the educated lot in Pakistan does not agree with the treatment inflicted upon Ahmadis, the same way they do not agree with the way governements have bungled up the constitution.

What I can`t understand is this whole ``people living in greenhouses shouldn`t throw stones`` principle. If you notice, the Dalit note was a response to syjam`s initial comment on how Ahmadis are mistreated in Pakistan. Perhaps syjam needs to know that the term `Dalit` in itself means `opressed`.

Re: sadna #113

What you might term as ``contradictory`` could also be interpretted as self-critical, couldn`t it? Now, if the `logic` follows a straight line in the Indian press, and the straight line is itself heading into a wrong direction, is that a better place to be?

Re: syjam #115

(``it is the same Iqbal who did the about turn (as did Jinnah)``)

M.K.Gandhi officialy served with the British army, recruiting officers for war quite diligently.

Within a few years, Gandhi then came up with his famous and idealistic non-violence concept, which - in essence - rated higher on a moral ground. There is nothing wrong with an individual seeing the light after a while, as did Iqbal and Jinnah.

Re: syjam #112

(``Gandhiji is the norm``)

In keeping with Gandhiji`s non-violence principles, India in the past few months has purchased new equipment for the army, with the total cost - excluding the much-touted T-90 Russian Tanks - being US$2-3 billion.

(``Come down and see how many Hindus work for my father`s factory.``)

Likewise, scores of Pakistanis and Indians work for English companies in the UK, where most of them get paid considerably more than what they would if they were employed back home. Does that, by your same logic then, suggest that the British should never have left India?

(``Please, stop worrying about the Indian Muslims.``)

I might remind you that if you trace your comment thread, it is you who is worrying about the Ahmadis in Pakistan.

(``In India the richest Indian is a Muslim``)

The following is from an article called ``India: Growth and Inequity: 1997`` by Sonalde Desai and Katherine Sreedhar:

``Research suggests that the minority Muslims are worse off in several measures of well-being than the dominant Hindus, particularly in Urban areas. About 25 percent of urban Hindus have a secondary school education or better, but only 15 percent of Muslims do. Many more Muslims than Hindus in urban areas are poor, spending only Rs.160 per month or less - 53 percent of Muslims compared to 39 percent of Hindus. In another example, Hindu police officers during the Bombay religious riots of 1992-93 were observed watching atrocities by Hindu mobs against Muslim slum residents without intervening to stop them.``

When you present things through rose-tinted glasses and only concentrate on the beautiful events surrounding a few members of a larger community, you often miss relaity. It seems surprising to me that you yourself speak up against atrocities upon Ahmadis in Pakistan, but when it comes to facing up to problems Muslims have encountered in India, it`s a totally different picture. Please take a visit to the Amnesty International site, where, along with the Ahmadi problems in Pakistan, and perhaps you will find understand the only Muslim-majority state in India wants to break away from India. Premji/Wipro would make for a good argument, but then so would a seven-year old Muslim girl molested by an Indian soldier.

Good Bye!

Thanks everyone. This is the last post! It was fun to read from some of the very learned and balanced Pakistanis that ever are! and lastly another 2cents of mine

Religion practiced in heart is a great source of peace.

Religion practiced in politics destroys it all

May every one prosper and all ill wills perish

Amen

Allah Hafiz

Matin ( SyJam)

Amit

I appreciate the spirit of your post but there is something I would like to caution you about. A subtle trap that the Hindu community falls into.

You tend to be ``patronizing`` to compensate for the Thakreys.

You write:

``The country will be indebted to the muslim community if that happens.``

What on earth does that mean. It is as much the duty of a ``Muslim`` Indian citizen as it is of a Hindu or Christian or whatever. There is no question of debt here. Every citizen as per Indian constitution; (letter and spirit)has the same rights and responsibilities. Muslims should be held to the same standards as Hindus.The Param Veer Chakra citation of ``Abdul Hamid`` does not say ``Thanks for laying your life down for the country despite being a Muslim``

And on the other hand, if some one fails, say ``Salim`` failed or ``John`` failed or ``Ram`` failed not the ``community``. It is hard to do but will be worth trying.

Alireza:

I forgot to add one more thing

Our Iqbal says

``Majahab nahi sikhata aapas mai bair rakhana; Hindi hai hum watan hai Hindosta humara``

Your Iqbal says

``Chino Arab humara, Hindosta humara, Muslim hai hum watan hai saara jahan humara``

(For some readers who may not be aware; it is the same Iqbal who did the about turn (as did Jinnah) and one India`s most beloved songs is penned by him )

My post #108

Read the first line as ``Some Pakistanis wanting it all ways`` meaning making self-contradictory arguments. A lot of this is seen in the Pakistani opinion pieces in the English press available on the web. I have seen plenty of stuff I don`t agree with in the Indian press which looks partisan or simply not credible, but at least the logic follows a straight line and is not self-contradictory.

Another item to add to my list:

17. Pakistan had a moral right to fight armed battles with the Indian occupation forces across the LOC in Kargil resulting in more than 1000 deaths overall and will do so again but India is the one who is irresponsibly war-mongering by refusing to talk about a peaceful settlement.

Sadhana

Tahmed321

Thanks for your good wishes. I hope the majority in the Nation of Pakistan realizes one day like you do.

Alireza:

Yes, Thakrey is a moron but there is a basic difference

In India, Thakrey is an exception and Gandhiji is the norm. In Pakistan Chowkwallahs are exceptions and mullahs are the norm.

In India the richest Indian is a Muslim ( Premji/Wipro) In Pakistan my cousin is not fit to get a bank loan because he is slightly different.

(Come down and see how many Hindus work for my father`s factory. It may just make you happy to see them working for a Muslim (Oops, I forgot. we are not quite Muslims are we?))

In India, Ambedkar burns ``Manusmriti`` and gets applauded for it. In Pakistan a 6-year-old Christian boy gets punished with lashes from the court for allegedly writing something ``anti-islamic`` on a wall

In India, we still have Jamaat-e-Islami-Hind. Tell me, honestly, can RSS-Pak exist in your country?

Please, stop worrying about the Indian Muslims. We will deal with the Thakreys and the RSS. We don`t need your pity.



As far as the dalits go, we are taking care of the injustices. There in fact, is a huge affirmative action program. Show me one positive thing your government has done to protect the Ahmadis. or for that matter any minority. (Oops again! I forgot, you have rarely had any real government. Should I then say military?)

One more reality check. The whole ruling coalition is essentially supported by the lower caste parties.

alireza #109

You say

``Ever heard of Dalits?``

Just interested, tell me, have you heard of Dalit Panthers, an active political party in India? Have you heard of Dalit sahitya and Dalit poetry, have you read any? Have you heard of the Dalit Sahitya Akademi? Also the newly constituted Dalit Human Rights Commission? Also, have you heard of BR Ambedkar the architect of the Indian Constitution?

I think Mayawati, former Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh, India`s most populous state is of Dalit origins, though I am not very sure.

Much needs to be done to erase centuries of injustice. However, the nation is not responding by exclusion, it is making efforts at inclusion. Doesnot the term `Kafir` denote exclusion in an Islamic state?

Sadhana

(``The gutter of pakistan will be no different from that in india``)

Actually, it will.

An Indian gutter, in the event of getting clogged, would immediately accuse Pakistan of helping ISI to infiltrate into its part of the gutter, would term the infiltrator as an Islamic militant, then an Afghan mercenary, then a Pakistan army regular and finally a Pakistan SSG commando in an undercover operation and would present identity cards to prove that it indeed is a Pakistan army person in an undercover operation to change the status of the LOC, and then vow to defend every inch of its gutter.

Re: syjam #105

(``Thank Allah that my grandfather decided to stay back with those ``Hindus`` in India``)

Aside from being very happy for your grandfather that his decision to stay back in India is vindicated by a newspaper article in The Frontier Post, here`s an idea of how even the press in India works:

``US nails Pakistan on hijack charge.``

- Chidanand Rajghatta, The Indian Express

1/25/00

``U.S. Finds No Pakistani Government Link

to India Hijacking.``

- Norman Kempster, Los Angeles Times

1/26/00

``We do not have evidence that the Pakistan government was in any way involved in that hijacking``

- Bill Clinton, 1/25/00

(``He is essentially asking any one who does not agree with him to go to India!``)

Please try to look up some of Bal Thackeray`s speeches. They are always very clear about where Indian Muslims should move to.

(``cousins are deemed ``Kafirs`` in the ``Muslim Land`` because they are Ahamadis``)

Ever heard of the Dalits?

Some Pakistanis wanting in all ways, Brig(R) Usman Khalid included:(due apologies to all others)

1. We are among the most refined, well-informed and sophisticated citizens of the world and open to all ideas of the world, but we can find nothing good in anything Indian, even Indian people particularly Brahmins and banias.

2. Islam in Pakistan was always meant to be tolerant, all-embracing and secular and Pakistani national ideology is clearly more equitable and modern than any other system, particularly the caste-system or that prevailing in the immoral West, but in practice and as a people we refuse to tolerate Indians of all shades and Muslims of some shades. Also, unlike Indians who oppress all the subnationalities in their midst, we are free of parochialism and ethnic divisions in the true Pakistani tradition. But in any discussion among ourselves, we can instantly identify the ethnic origin of the participants and our replies must always reflect this recognition.

3. We teach our children that we have always dominated Indians culturally, politically, militarily but also teach our young ones to hate Indians as enemies denying us our just due.

4. We lay claim to the Machiavellian Chanakya and the many pre-Islamic greats who were after all based in Pakistan but all the cunning statecraft and masterful trickery is currently shown by Indians which is consistent with their different and inglorious ancestors` actions when we were ruling them.

5. The idea and the ideology of Pakistan is many centuries old, India is a misbegotten state with no good reason to exist. However, if it wasn`t for many treacherous and inflexible Hindu leaders like Nehru, Md.Jinnah wouldnot have had to insist on Partition.

6. Pakistan`s role in the Kashmir conflict is nothing to do with Islam, its purely a matter of self-determination in the best traditions of human rights, but India ought not have gotten Kashmir during Partition as it was majority Muslim and that gives us a right to it today.

7. Pakistan`s role in the Kashmir conflict is nothing to do with Islam, but we worry about the plight of Muslims. Other Kashmiris we will naturally call back later. Muslims suffer under non-Muslim rule. On a personal level we feel concerned for the 130 million Muslims in India; as for those numbering 148 million in our country, well, their problems are not so systemic.

8. Years of misgovernance and corruption in Pakistan, looting of state resources by Pakistanis and rigged and sham elections justifies armed takeover and suspension of democracy by the military. The Prime Minister and Foreign Minister can be imprisoned and tried for sedition and Pakistanis ought be accept all this patiently and passively as they just at present incapable of choosing who should govern them.

Years of misgovernance by Indian leaders at the center and Kashmiri leaders in the state, corruption and looting of state resources by Kashmiris justifies armed war and violence against India and Indians. Hence, we can condone sabotage of national, state and panchayat elections in Kashmir and elimination by assasination of Kashmiri political party activists. On the other hand, those supporting us and pursuing seccession ought not be tried even for sedition, Indians ought to accept all this violence passively as Pakistanis deserve a say in which Kashmiris ought to govern.

9. China is a great ally, and an old friend while India is an enemy. Lack of self-determination in Communist Chinese Kashmir is morally justified by our supreme national interest. War with India over Indian Kashmir is morally justified even if we destroy ourselves.

10. We donot have human rights assurances for political activity in our own country but India is infringing on human rights by denying people their right to seccede to us and we reserve the right of our citizens to go there and participate in their struggle.

10. Islamic fundamentalism can never gain ground in our country, but if the American President doesnot visit or Western money doesnot come through on time, then the resulting swell in support for extremists will send Pakistan irrevocably down the path to fundamentalism.

12. We don`t support fundamentalism in our own country, but we condone our citizens training for and supporting armed jihad as a moral cause in Kashmir, Kosovo, Chechnya and other places.

13. Its OK for our citizens to get involved in wars far from our borders due to our moral and religious imperatives, but Indians are looking to further their hegemonistic designs when they fight us on their borders with us or even threaten to do so.

14. Islamic extremists only fight just wars for `human rights` and `freedom` and we support them ideologically and materially even though these warriors of human rights tolerate no dissent on any matter, religious, ideological political or sartorial.

15. Also, many such extremists have acquired religious education and spent their student days here, however neither can Pakistan be held accountable for these extremists` actions nor do such extremists exist in Pakistan.

16. We havenot yet agreed among ourselves on a stable paradigm of governance and we are steeped in debt and corruption. India is struggling with these severe and threatening problems, too. Also there is this apparent potential for socio-religious tension in Pakistan which is daunting us and our rulers and preempting bold corrective actions. However, India considers us a prize catch and is waiting to take us over.

Sadhana

syjam #105

sattar2 #105 (Pakistan in the year 3000)

Excellent postings. Is it possible for one of you gentlemen to educate a non-Muslim about differences between Sunni and Ahmadia branches in general and why Sunni fundamentalists in Pakistan would consider Ahmadias as non-Muslims?

Thanks.

Quality of press in Pakistan!

Here is an article in a reputed daily `The Frontier Post` today as a testimonial to the great rational journalistic minds in Pakistan.

He is essentially asking any one who does not agree with him to go to India! Thank Allah that my grandfather decided to stay back with those ``Hindus`` in India and not follow his sister and Brother in law to Pakistan.

SyJam

BTW, we are working and propsering as citizens of a secular country whereas my cousins are deemed ``Kafirs`` in the ``Muslim Land`` because they are Ahamadis



Discrediting the military

Brig. (R) Usman Khalid

An important piece of news was released by a news agency last week. The title of the news was, ``The real target of Pakistan`s enemies is its armed forces.`` The gist of the news was that the chiefs of three armed services of India had proposed the formation of a secret service more potent than the infamous RAW to confront the ISI of Pakistan. Its task would be to discredit and bring into disrepute the ISI and the armed forces of Pakistan; undermine public support for Pakistan`s nuclear deterrent, for Jihad in Kashmir and to Taliban rule in Afghanistan. It was also reported that India has decided to mobilise its old contacts and friends in Pakistan to pursue its goals. The news is not surprising.

Our nuclear deterrent, the Jihad in Kashmir and Pakistan`s close brotherly relations with Afghanistan are the three pillars of our security and that if any one of these is knocked down, India would exploit the situation by an invasion. I reiterate that India sees in the accession of military to power in Pakistan as another opportunity to demonise, isolate and invade Pakistan. The friends of India have begun their work in Pakistan as well in USA and Europe.

The MQM (Altaf) released the canard that the ISI had a hand in the aircrash in which General Ziaul Haq was killed. Foreign Minister Abdus Sattar launched his crusade to undermine the credibility of Pakistan`s nuclear deterrent by fallacious arguments in support of Pakistan signing the CTBT. He attacked the critics of CTBT viciously going as far as chiding Qazi Hussain Ahmed as leader of a party that opposed Pakistan. That slur was particularly abominable because Qazi Sahib has been in the forefront in supporting Jihad in Kashmir and Afghanistan while the leader of the party that led the Pakistan Movement was ready to knock down all the three pillars of our national defence and is now under trial for offences including treason.

I was alarmed that the English language press in Pakistan gave out full details of ranting by the foreign minister in support of the CTBT but the counter-arguments that drew his wrath were hardly even mentioned. An English daily in particular, appears to have taken it upon itself to promote the themes of Indian propaganda against our armed forces on regular basis. In its editorial titled ``Confidence is the key`` (London issue of 13 January) it blames the heavy defence expenditure for Pakistan`s economic problems.

Before falsehood and slander of the armed forces become routine, it is necessary to put the defence budget into perspective.

At present, the annual defence expenditure is 145 billion rupees. The amount earmarked in the budget for debt servicing is 300 billion rupees. The defence budget provides livelihood for more than half a million service families and a similar number of civilian families in support services, staff and military industry. The defence budget feeds, directly and indirectly, about 5 million mouths in Pakistan. The defence services are the biggest employer of educated persons selected on merit rather than sifarish. The salaries of service personnel support the economy of many towns where the military have their bases. The food, fuel and fodder; weapons, wireless and vehicles; apparel, accommodation and accessories needed by the military are the only stable source of orders for a number of industries. Almost all of the money spent on defence circulates in Pakistan and supports its economic health.

In contrast, the money spent on servicing loans is taken out of circulation and is recessionary in its economic impact. It is true that some of the money spent on defence could be spent on health and education. But that transfer would have little impact on the economy although it could have impact on health and education standards. But the money transferred from loan servicing to health and education would benefit the economy and improve health and education yielding economic benefit as well as positive social impact.

What is infinitely more damaging than even the debt-servicing budget is the figure of 300 billion rupees estimated by experts to represent taxes not collected and money wasted or embezzled. It is quite apparent that the target for budget reform and economy should lie elsewhere rather than in the defence budget. The impact of defence expenditure on our economy is benign because it goes to those who serve their country honestly in tough, dangerous and demanding work in contrast with twice the amount that remains uncollected from the rich and powerful or goes into the pockets of corrupt officials. Three hundred billion rupees are the bills we pay for the theft, embezzlement, cuts and commissions. The argument of defence versus development is farcical.

Our country is corrupt. It steals rather than spends in the name of development. We have very little to show for our public sector investment for which we have accumulated 32 billion dollars of foreign debt and we pay 300 billion rupees every year to service. The defence forces, in contrast, are the only public sector where high level of motivation and sacrifice, and admirable sense of duty have been sustained in very difficult circumstances. We have an expansionist and aggressive country eight times our size in forces and resources as our neighbour. We are fortunate that we have a cost-effective nuclear deterrent and armed forces we can be proud of. The performance of our boys during Kargil operation made that point convincingly.

Our country has a lot to show for the investment we have made in the defence of our country over the years. The enemies of Pakistan do not only attack the defence budget; the Indian lobbies and their agents have become bold enough to attack the armed forces directly. The editorial attack in the newspaper in question on the defence budget was followed a day later (on 14 January) by an article by Dr Inayatullah, under the title ``Five traumas and the military.`` He said, ``the five traumas are the birth, isolation, bisection, humiliation and encirclement of Pakistan.`` A patriotic Pakistani would not dismiss the entire history of Pakistan as that of traumas and justify Indian invasion and efforts to hurt and harm Pakistan as inevitable. Only a Hindu or an implacable enemy of Pakistan would describe our history in those terms. Is it not astonishing that he describes the birth of our country as a trauma? Even human birth is attended by pain; but it is a source of joy to those to whom the baby belongs. The birth of Pakistan was an ecstatic experience for the Muslims of India. Those who felt different, like L.K. Advani, migrated to India. So should Inayatullah who attacks the military and wrote, ``The military keeps the memory of the traumas alive to sustain its power.``

That this person taught our children at our national university at Islamabad gives a measure of the extent to which detractors of Pakistan have infiltrated our academic establishment. Bad-mouthing Pakistan is not just acceptable; it has become a sort of badge of honour. In any case, how does the military keep the memory of traumas alive? And why should we forget the chapters of history particularly when they have been traumatic? We should remember and learn from them! There is neither logic nor truth in what he wrote. Yet, a national daily prints the trash. We seem to have learnt nothing from the part played by university teachers as vehicles of Indian propaganda to create ethnic polarisation and hatred that led to the `bisection` of Pakistan in 1971. If we took no action to deal with the likes of Sheikh Mujib and his professorial Goebbels that continue to flourish even in the remaining Pakistan, there will be more traumas, whether we forget the old ones or remember them.

alireza,

An example of what i am taliking about. Show me a report , even pak news report, which says that the three were interrogated to find the indentity of the hijackers.

‘Zargar back in Kashmir’

Muzaffarabad (PoK), January 24 (AFP)

MILITANT GROUP Al-Umar said on Monday that its leader, Mushtaq Ahmad Zargar, had reached Kashmir following his release last month by India in exchange for hostages on hijacked IA flight IC 814.

Zargar was freed on New Year’s eve, along with two other Kashmir militants, at Kandahar in Afghanistan, ending the eight-day hijacking drama. He later arrived in Muzaffarabad, capital of the Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, early this month. “Our chief has now arrived in Kupwara district in Kashmir,” the outfit said in a statement.

A Pak cleric, Maulana Masood Azhar, who had also been released by India in the swap deal, arrived in Pakistan after Zargar. The third man freed was Ahmed Omar Sayyed, a British Islamic militant. His whereabouts are not known.