Twosome Troubles of Troublesome Two

Dear Ali1(#80): I actually agree with most of the point you made except that I was looking 10, 20 or 50 years down the road. The Lashkars are manageable now, to some extent, but you never know if they pick up momentum due to economic termoil and lot more people might think as a viable alternative, or due to some strong anti-american feeling in the future. One should never take their opponents lightly like the Mogul king Mohd. Shah Rangeela who said,”hanooz Dilli door ast” while the forces of Nadir Shah were on the move.

You are right about the natural resistance from MQM, Jaye Sindh, Ahle-Sunnat, pirs, feudals and liberals in Sindh, Balochistan and Punjab but I was really pointing out NWFP when I talked about the possibility of disintegration and I did not mean that Lashkars winning the election. The nationalist and leftist Pathans have started to side with the Taliban who already wield great influence on the rural Pashtun population and a new brand of Pashtun nationalism is in the making. The nationalists will provide the bulk of the intellegentia necessary to run Afghanistan with overlordship of Taliban Mullahs. Imagine yourself a Pathan, and see what you have gained from Pakistan’s support for Hekmatyar and then pulling the plug in favor of Taliban; only deaths, destruction, misery, hunger and famine. It is unthinkable that Pakistan will ever allow this much destruction of Punjabis or UP Muslims in India. A Pathan may think, Pakistan being controlled by Punjabi-Mohajir elites with no concerns for Pathans, similar to Bengalis before.

It is right that SSP leadership was killed by Shias but kiling of Shia govt. officials, poets and intellectuals is different. Sorry to say, but for me murder of a doctor is more painful than a hateful war-mongering angry mullah. The Shias are no match for Lashkars, only Ahle-Sunnat and Pirs can match their strength.

Regards,

Sameer

To rajanjua #

``It is a pretty funny story, but I think the one with ISI are more interesting, especially when the author is L.K. Advani. ``

I guess the Advani ones donot have as much masala as this one - they are pretty matter of fact type.. Not at all intersting compared to this one...:)

``I wonder if Naqvi Sahib knows that Chanakya is a Pakistani. Probably not. I forget, he`s pre-712AD. It does`nt matter

that he makes Machiavelli look like a little kid-Anyone with a pagan-sounding name is unacceptable.``

Sorry Rajanjua... You cannot calim he was a Pakistani- You guys lost that right when those academecians wrote your history books...

But, Amir Khusro, Akbar, ShahJehan , Aurangzeb and Jinnah are still Indians......Only recently in Rediff, one historian included Jinnah among the greatest Indians of the century...We care for our heritage..

Satyavadi

To Ali # 77

You say

``I hope you will also find the time and courage to pity the standard of journalism in your native India and the psyche of

Hindu Indians.``

Well I have the courage and the time, but the problem is the standard is nowhere as bad as that in Pakistan, though the papers toe the givt line on foreign relations and specially Pakistan...

Pathetic standards , like in Pakistan, are to be pitied.. But comparitively lower standards (compared to Western newspapers -though they also follow their govt`s lead when it comes to villains and Pakistan is one for India) like in India, are to be upgraded by encouragement and exhortation, which I should do, but dont have the clout to..

I am amused that you have singled out Hindu Indians for your criticism - the tnt applies here too..Good for you, but it only betrays your prejudiced mind..

On a side note: Most Pakistanis make it a point to show that they empathize with the pains of all non -Hindu, even non-Uppercaste Indians, for very obvious reasons..``Aur to Aur`` even Sikhs are their friends afterthey fell apart with the Indian Central gove for a while.. How about some reminder about the burning of one of the Gurus (Teghbahadur ?)by your icon Aurangzeb, how about the partition riots in Punjab (worst in all of India), and many other things..

One last thing on this, you are not alone in this.. Everyone would rememebr that stubborn lawyer OMAR MIRZA, who after once openly proclaiming that he would kill any Sikh if he got an opportunity, to avenge for the partition time deaths of his family members, actually pretended to be the biggest admirer of the ``valiant Sikhs`` just because an young British Sikh expressed some reservations abut the Indian system on this forum, and patronisingly tried to instigate him to harm India in whichever way he could...

You betray a similar mentality, dude!!..

`` Remember when *ALL * Indian newspapers reported that Ganesh bhagwan`s idols are drinking milk and *NONE *

of the reporters, op-ed writers and letters to the editors questioned the validity or pointed to the absurdity of this claim. ````````

I was in India at that time and believe me, I myself ``pilaofied`` milk to Ganesh idols in the Mandir, and they did seem to drink :)

That same day Doordarshan had a 5-7 clip explaining how surface tension (and other phenomena) caused the illusion and also showed the drain of a Mandir in Delhi from where all the milk was flowing out.. The newspapers also did similar things.. I know because I was there!!!



``Similar is the case when your Capt. Gupta, while climbing up, killed 50 well-entrenched infiltrators before dying and after

taking bullets in his chest. All your pitiful newspapers reported this, and your entire pitiful Hindu population believed it!! ````````

I dont know about this one, but do you have a source to verify whether this was correct or not...

Again, I am abit more amused this time , again ``hindu population``.. Our entire Indian population believed it, believe me...Dont try the Hindu Muslim thing here, it only uncovers your hatred filled mind...We would never go to the level of saying ``Muslim Terrorsists`` for ``Pakistani Terrrorists``, because we care for the 13% of our population.. I guess there are some Hindu people in Pak too, but they are just 1% and any way who cares about those pagans, never mind if they happen to be Pakistanis!!!

Satyavadi

alil #80

``2) Pakistan Army acted swiftly and mercilessly against the over-ambitious Lashkaris in its midst, recall Gen Abbasi, Brig Billah et. al. Although a substantial number of potential Lashkaris were inducted in the army in Zia`s time, that trend has been reversed and those inside will retire in due course without getting much higher in the ranks. Most of them will retire at Maj./Lt. Col level I think.``

Its interesting that many analysts, Western and Pakistani, hold up the threat of the Pakistani polity sliding into religious fundamentalism as a reason for supporting the present miltary regime and against isolating Pakistan for its support of terrorists. I have seen a number of opinion pieces written by retired army personnel in Pakistani newspapers pushing this argument. Is all that `milli bhagat` or coordinated double speak? `Wanting it all ways`, I think. I don`t recall any such argument ever being made about fundamentalism in India.

The following articles may throw some light.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/jan/15pak.htm ``Vanguard of the jihad``, Yahya Durrani in Karachi

A small hopeful sign is an article in The Nation, January 18, 2000 ``Why fight everyone?`` by Dr Ijaz Ahsan

Excerpt:

``The Harkat-ul-Mujahideen have said that Kashmir is just their base camp and that soon they are going into Himachal Pradesh to start liberating India and hoist the Islamic flag on Delhi`s Red Fort. One fails to see what they hope to gain by such statements. If they want to serve the cause of Islam, why don`t they try to make Pakistanis better Muslims first?``

Sadhana

RE: Pardesi # 75 Sameer # 78

I didn`t ask for a comparision between Taliban and the BJP. I really don`t care if BJP is less facist (overtly, right now) as compared with Taliban. Fanaticsm and facism should not be acceptable regardless of degree. It is heartening to note though that you consider BJP a menace and something that all right thinking Indians should worry about.

Sameer # 76

You have way overestimated the Lashkars. I think Pakistan will never have a ``Taliban``/``Deobandi-Wahabi``/``Lashkari`` govt. I am sure you`ll agree that these folks can never win an election if and when that occurs, so they have to use the backdoor to capture power. Here are a few roadblocks to their backdoor entry.

(1) State/Establishment which has dealt firmly with earlier jehadis who strayed too far from its agenda. Remember Hekmatyar, Mujaddadi, Sayaf, Rabbani, Hezbul Mujahideen, JKLF etc etc?

(2) Pakistan Army acted swiftly and mercilessly against the over-ambitious Lashkaris in its midst, recall Gen Abbasi, Brig Billah et. al. Although a substantial number of potential Lashkaris were inducted in the army in Zia`s time, that trend has been reversed and those inside will retire in due course without getting much higher in the ranks. Most of them will retire at Maj./Lt. Col level I think.

(3) vast majority of Pakistanis, especially in Punjab, Sindh and Karachi are Ahl-e-Sunnat (followers of Sufi Islam, if you like) and there is no way that they will accept a government with wahibi orientation. And they are not as pacifist as the Sufi followers of the previous centuries; recall what ATI did to these ``Lashkaris`` after winning college union elections in Punjab in 1989.

(4) Contrary to your assertion, Shias are perfectly capable of defending themselves. Yes a number of prominant shias have been killed, but they are still very well entrenched in civil/military hierarchy. BTW, Shias have also killed every single SSP (Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan) president starting from its founders.

(5) Ethnic groups, specially MQM and to some extent Jeay Sindh can resist lashkari presence in the terms that these guys understand.

Finally, Pakistanis generally do not care much about the narrow sectarian political agenda of the Lashkaris. Jinnah, Iskandar Mirza, Yahya Khan, Bhutto and Benazir were all Shias and all of them were judged by their deeds rather than faith.

Ali

PEACE IN THE NEW YEAR,

Amit,

It is very heartening to see that you have achieved some semblence of understanding with a few pakistanis on the chowk, which in itself is remarkable. To continue on this noble path, at some stage you may come across these minor rough patches. The soldiers of Kargill were the highly trained and religiously motivated jihadic forces, of whom even the then pak prime minister described autonomous and all that he could do is request co-operation. Govt of pakistan has an increasingly minor role.

Kashmere is a jihadic frontier, soldiers from a dozen countries, thousands of them have reached heaven in Kashmere. Even the hijackers wanted a pakistani and a british. Amit, you may have to work with all of the islamic states.

There has never been any criticism of the jihadic forces by any pak govt officials, jihad is the central element of islam. One should realise that in the National security Council of the Parvez Muzz did not contain a religious scholar initially, a few rockets at the US embassy ensured it overnight. Hence the methods including hijacking could be `ligitimate`. Watch out.

One should realise that Lashkar e- toiba and other jihadic organisation have relieved the govt of significant budgetary obligations. War in Kashmir is sponsored by the people of pakistan, in the highest traditions of democracy. They even took on and `won` against the indians. The need of the hour is to further develop this tradition. `` Democracy starts from the barrel of an AK47 aimed at a kafir``, that is Mohamed Asghar.

After the `basic democracy` of Ayub, `non party democracy` of zia and the `sham democracy` as described by PM of NS govt, stay tuned for non provocatively named `pak democracy` no let me call it ji... democracy.

Ali1 (#70): I am sure your buddy will respond to your post. From top of my head, here are some differences between Saffronization and Talibanization.

Talibanization means exporting their brand to the rest of the Islamic world; Saffronization means imposing their brand on India.

Talibanization threatens Pakistan`s integrity and Pakistani way of life. Saffronization threatens Pakistani (Azad) Kashmir.

Talibanization, terrible for women; Saffronization, no stand on women`s issues.

Talibanization threaten to destroy Bamyans historical Buddha statues; Saffronization, destroyed the Babri mosque.

Taliban, killed more Muslims; Saffron, killed Muslims during riots following Babri...

Tailban leadership, illiterate and fiercely religious (their brand); Saffron leadership, educated and fiercely nationalistic.

Taliban source of income--drugs; Saffron-- donations?

One is more nasty than other!!!

RE satyavadi # 73

I hope you will also find the time and courage to pity the standard of journalism in your native India and the psyche of Hindu Indians.

Remember when *ALL * Indian newspapers reported that Ganesh bhagwan`s idols are drinking milk and *NONE * of the reporters, op-ed writers and letters to the editors questioned the validity or pointed to the absurdity of this claim. Similar is the case when your Capt. Gupta, while climbing up, killed 50 well-entrenched infiltrators before dying and after taking bullets in his chest. All your pitiful newspapers reported this, and your entire pitiful Hindu population believed it!!

Ali

Dear Pardesi (#68): I agree with your very sensible point of view with regards to Pakistan and Lashkars. There is no doubt that Lashkars are much more harmful to Pakistani society than anything else. I am actually much more worried about their long-term impacts. Like every other umbrella terrorist organizations by the world`s intellegence organization, they became out of hand and uncontrolable, e.g., Tamil Tigers and Bhindranwale`s Punjabi Movement.

It all started with the Pakistani involvement in Afghanistan, at the behest of USA, after Russian invasion. They were emotiional times among Pakistanis and I was thoroughly criticized by my friends for suggesting a neutral stand. I was right in thinking about the long-term effects of such involvement, likes the growth of fundamentalism, guns and drug culture leading to the creation of Talibans and then Lashkars. The Lashkars involvement in Kashmir is only part of their plan. They are getting out of the hands of ISI and have killed practically every assist. commissioner, SP, SSP and many other doctors, writers and lawyer of Shia faith in Punjab. The police is absolutely helpless against them. Their ultimate plan is to take over all, or part of Pakistan, by hook or by crook and impose their brand of Talibanization. Here lies my biggest worry. What if, besides Shias, they start going after intellectuals, liberals or anybody who disagrees with them, like their brethern in Algeria. I am not sure how deep they have penetrated in the armed forces. One must think about the future instead of present or past only.

And I am not alone in thinking this way. I am appending excerpts from a US government report which appeared in yesterday,s e.News, Pakistan. This report though looks outrageous but one must not take it lightly. If there is even slightest chance of such happening, I will fully support total reevaluation of Pakistan`s foreign policy, vis-a-vis Afghanistan/ Talibans and defend Pakistan`s integrity even if it means bloodbath.

Here are the excerts:

[Afghan war may split Pakistan: US report

Says South Asia to face turmoil in next 25 years

By Amir Mateen

WASHINGTON: An official US report has predicted break-up of Pakistan as a fall-out of the continuous stalemate in Afghanistan.

The US Commission on National Security in the 21st Century, chartered by the defence secretary and endorsed by the White House, predicts Pakistan, India and possibly China getting engaged over Afghanistan.

The report formulates various scenarios that could affect the US national security in the next 25 years. The Commission is co-chaired by former senators Warren Rudman and Gary Hart and comprising 28 commissioners including prominent former figures in government, legislature and non-governmental organisations.

The Commission said India and Afghanistan could find themselves at war over Taliban policies towards Afghanistan`s Hazara population, drugs and weapons running, interpretations of Islam and sheer geo-strategic rivalry. Such a war might also involve Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, each thinking to absorb the ethnic Tajik and Uzbek populations of Afghanistan, north of the Hindukush, where the writ of the mainly Pushtun Taliban does not run deep.

The report paints what looks like a comic scenario where Pakistan is dragged in the war, which in turn seriously affects its current territorial configuration. The Commission reports that the possible collapse of a nuclear Pakistan would quickly become an urgent international security issue. It goes on to say that such events might then open the way for an Indo-Iranian competition over Punjab, Sindh and Balochistan, adding that both the countries could have nuclear capabilities by the time such a contest may develop.

The scenario where Iran and India are fighting over Pakistani territory with the nuclear Pakistan wiped out looks ridiculous even to a lay student of international relations. It also predicts ``a major war`` between India and Pakistan ``as a result of miscalculation when fighting erupts in Kashmir as it did in June 1999``. Another Sino-Indian border war is also possible, it says.

The only good thing about the report is that it admits that most of these conflicts are unlikely to break out over the next 25 years. However, it predicts that the internal stability of Pakistan could seriously be undermined in the face of political paralysis and economic distress, with Pashtun, Baloch, and even Mohajir groups seeking their own states. It says that mutual agreement between India and Pakistan to abolish their nuclear weapons is not likely, unless somehow China and others agree to do the same which is even less likely.]

Now you tell me, should we keep implementing fundamentalist/ Taliban agenda because we created them and now chickens are coming home......

Regards,

Sameer

ali1 #70

Ali sahib,

My note was in response to Sameer sahib’s note in which he suggested that Indians should support secular and democratic Pakistan and all I was trying to point out was that yes indeed, secular Pakistan will be in the long term interest of India.

You are absolutely right that saffornization of India will be a step backward for India and all thinking Indians should oppose it if that leads India towards fanaticism of just another kind. Having said that let’s try to differentiate between Talbinazation and having BJP as the major party in the coalition since, I guess, that’s what you mean by saffornization.

Talbinization in my mind is what’s happening in Afghanistan. This means Burqa, almost no rights for women, interest free economy (if there is one), very limited science education and virtual isolation from the world. I think Pakistani people are much smarter than that and even under worst scenario of ``Talibanization``, they probably would settle for some thing like Iranian system which is much less severe than Afghanistan but the state output will definitely not reflect what our Punjabis are capable of achieving if left alone.

Saffornization, as you called it, is not a positive step for India. My hope is that this will not cause any major setbacks to Indian secular (work in progress though) system due to quite a few ``checks and balances`` in place:

- People are used to democracy/elections and if BJP can not produce, it will be out. BJP would not be able to produce if they keep spending energies on Babri Masjids and fighting in Kashmir.

- There is a healthy 20 % or so minority population of Muslims, Sikhs, Parsis and Christians. These people are all over the place (at highest levels) in military, politics, businesses and media. Yes, there are riots and burnings, but compared to the overall population and number of incidences, I still have hope that damage will not rock the boat. However, law and order, and accountability, still needs further development. Not everything is hunky-dory.

- There has been tremendous progress towards decentralization of power in favor of states (main cause of Sikh issue in Punjab) and privatization. This will keep people focussed on improving their lot rather than analyzing whose religion is purer and better.

- Science, math and IT education is very heavily encouraged and results are obvious to every one even in the western world. Practically, very few degrees are awarded in hard core religious research. Scientific and privately owned business minds are more liberal and secular.

- Hinduism is really not a hard core religion per se like Islam with Quran and rules for the way one should live his life on a day to day basis. It’s more like a culture and a way of life that varies from one part of India to another. This has been their greatest source of strength (they are flexible, tolerant and adopt quickly) as well as weakness (no unity against aggressors since no commonality in beliefs). Therefore my friend, as soon Kashmir affair is settled, BJP/RSS would loose a major reason for their existence. However, if they master the art of economic governance, which they are capable of since BJP’s major constituency in my time at least was all middle class business people, they can offer congress run for their money for long long time.

{Pardesi Sahib (or bibi?} It’s Mr.

Re:#73 satyavadi

It is a pretty funny story, but I think the one with ISI are more interesting, especially when the author is L.K. Advani.

I wonder if Naqvi Sahib knows that Chanakya is a Pakistani. Probably not. I forget, he`s pre-712AD. It does`nt matter that he makes Machiavelli look like a little kid-Anyone with a pagan-sounding name is unacceptable.

To all:::

The more I read pakistani newspapers, the more I pity the standard of journalism, as also the psyche of the Pakistanis..

Whenever there is any sort of allegation ( true or fabricated) the next day we have a very similar allegation coming from Pakistan acuusing India of whatever India had accused Pakistan of, the previous day..

Are there not any original thinkers in Pakistan ? I think you guys suffer from what is called in Indian schools, the ``copycat`` mentality..

A prime example of the irresponsible conduct of the newspapers and the childish behavior of journalists (???) of Pakistan came to light when I read this article today in Jang:::.I will reproduce it here and all of you can have a hearty laugh at poor Jang`s and Shahid Naqvi`s expense.. I bet any 10th standard student in India could come up with a better fabricated story about any intelligence agency on the world which would appear more factual, objective and researched, than this piece of crap and heartburn from poor Shahid Naqvi...

There are great writers and thinkers on Chowk, specially from Pakistan.. May I suggest that you guys write anarticle accusing RAW of everything

bad under the sun: Atleast it would appear more credible and mature than this baby-cry from Shahid Naqvi.

Note: I came across a very sensible article by Anees Jillani in the same newspaper today.. It talks about how Pakistan imitating India is like his younger neice imitating the older one (both kids), kind of what Indians assert.. It makes good reading. Atleast for Indians..:)

JANG ARTICLE::::

Shahid Naqvi

Dangerous liaisons along the spy trail

Shahid Naqvi

India`s Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) has a 2,300-year-old legacy of guidance from its ``political god``--Chankya alias Kautaliya--in deceit and deception. Raised initially in 1963 by the first Indian prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, as a subsidiary of the Indian Intelligence Bureau, it emerged with the title of ``third agency`` under Mrs Indira Gandhi. It is less a spy organisation, more a terrorist intelligence agency drawing inspiration from Chanakian philosophy. In the book ``Arth Shastre`` Chankya highlights that `in the game of spying everything is fair like it is in love and war`.

In psychological war operations and on the propaganda front, RAW has made remarkable gains by effectively spreading disinformation and often misinformation to earn favours for India and disrepute for other countries, particularly Pakistan. In the recent past the weapons of propaganda and the manipulation of mass media were used to give a fatal economic blow to Pakistan`s carpet industry, where employment of child labour was so adversely represented in the world forums, that at one stage the export of Pakistani carpets was almost banned in the world markets. The recent staging of the hijacking drama has been an extension of the same Indian propaganda policy. The objective again being maligning, defaming and isolating Pakistan.

Prospective candidates for recruitment for different types of anti-Pakistan activities are easily found by RAW from among the illegal immigrants looking for employment in Pakistan, the minority communities, the underworld elements like smugglers and criminals living in border areas. They are also found from among the members of divided families belonging to occupied Kashmir or Azad Kashmir, India or Pakistan who either apply for a visit to India or their relatives visit Pakistan.

RAW also seeks to find agents from political and dissident elements who either have estranged from the ideological and geographical moorings of Pakistan or get alienated by government policies and drift towards anti-state manipulations. The RAW spotters and recruiters are located both in diplomatic and non-diplomatic positions. They remain on the look-out for these prospective anti-Pakistan agents.

Diplomatic contingents in or near target countries are well staffed with RAW officials. Certain non-diplomatic organisations and different world organisations have also been infested with RAW agents to enlarge and improve coverage of target countries. Pakistan is the most important target and as such Indian nationals serving with the UN often seek assignments in Pakistan.

A former senior officer of the United Nations for programming and development was reported to be organising a pro-India lobby in the UN offices in Islamabad. He helped in securing classified information, which he regularly sent to India in the diplomatic bag. RAW also utilised the services of KGB and WAD in the past. Unicef offices in Pakistan were once operating an Indian spy network and one Indian counsellor in Karachi was found actively involved in sabotage, subversion and spying activities through this network.

Experienced Mossad officers trained RAW agents under an agreement between the two intelligence services. They also helped in organising torture cells and interrogation centres in the Indian-held Kashmir. RAW with close collaboration of Mossad launched ``Operation Chanakya`` in the early `90s in Indian-held Kashmir with the objective of sowing dissension among the mujahideen. RAW infiltrated its own agents among mujahideen to break up their solidarity. These agents indulged in murder, rape, and loot besides airing internal conflicts. However the mujahideen`s firm conviction in the righteousness of their cause and the spirit of jihad shown by them, have defeated RAW designs, and their intifada or internal jihad continues despite unlimited hurdles and impediments.

The recruitment pattern of RAW is mostly stereotype and generally devoid of sophistication. Yet in use of sex baits they have no challenge and little possibility of retaliation, particularly from Pakistan, due to compulsions of society and religion. As such RAW has been inviting prospective agents from Pakistan to tour India and they offered them women by way of hospitality. They have been bringing attractive women into Pakistan and using them to gain access to the policymaking elite of the country. From time to time Pakistani youth have been lured into making trips to Indian cities for `business and pleasure`. Later these young men were blackmailed and forced to serve RAW.

Quite in line with Chanakya`s teachings, it is the approach of RAW that Pakistan being India`s immediate neighbour, could never be India`s friend and as such could be subjected to all types of known intelligence attacks. Sabotage through bomb blasts and terrorist attacks causing destruction of men and material. Subversion through subversive propaganda, exploitation, disinformation, psychological warfare and diplomatic manoeuvrings on Pakistan`s internal and external fronts have been the main thrusts of RAW, besides espionage through all possible ways. Here are three typical cases to highlight the modus operandi of RAW in Pakistan:

Spy turned seductress: Twenty-four year-old Vena, a smart and curvaceous Hindu girl, was brought up in a poor household in India. After her graduation she was forced by economic considerations to look for a teaching job for assistance of her parents in preparing suitable dowry for her marriage.

While she was on the look out for a job, she was spotted by Indian intelligence and was approached through the husband of her friend. Her further introduced her to one ``high government official`` (an officer of the Indian RAW), who interviewed her for a teaching job which was not in India, but in the Indian Embassy school in Pakistan.

She was told that since Pakistan was an enemy country she had to undergo special security training for a few weeks before her dispatch. She was thrilled about the offer and accepted all the conditions set out for the teaching job in Pakistan. A few days later an appointment letter was delivered through a courier, and she was informed that her training would start in the Security Training School with immediate effect. In the training school there were four other girls undergoing similar training along with her. The training curricula comprised physical fitness exercises, weapons training, sharp-shooting, hatred against Pakistan based on disinformation lectures which they called motivation lessons, and above all the training included methods to seduce the targeted personality.

The students were shown pornographic films and taught how to excite a man, besides teaching different manners of partnership. As part of their training these girls were made to go through the act over and over again and with different men, including their instructors to the extent of becoming immune not only to the psychological and physical pangs of indulging in this act but also overcoming all shyness and natural sense of female dignity.

After completion of her so-called security training, Vena was sent as a teacher in the Indian School, Islamabad. Here in the school her academic involvement was only a cover and for her ``actual job`` she received instructions directly from the Indian defence attache and one first secretary (a RAW officer) in the embassy. It was one of the most exciting days for her when she was driven in the defence attache`s car to a hotel lobby accompanied by an Indian RAW official with the task of hooking her first target in Pakistan.

A room was already booked by the Indian Embassy for the `guests`, where Vena positioned herself. After a short while a young Pakistani, who was looking very nervous and suspicious entered the hotel, where the Indian official, who had come with Vena, received him at the lobby. He immediately took this young man to the lifts and into the room where Vena was already waiting for her prey. Her prey, as she learnt later, was actually an engineer from the Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission. The Indian Embassy official, after playing the role of a go-between, left this young man, blushing and shy, with Vena so that both could know each other better. Vena was all thrills. Now was the chance to prove her worth to her bosses and she could not afford to miss it.

But this young man, probably being novice at the game, remained uneasy and nervous all through this time. His stay with her lasted for about half an hour and then he left after exchanges of addresses and promises to meet again. These promises could not materialise as, unfortunate for both of them, Pakistani security hawks never missed the trail of the developments. That young engineer lost his job and Vena through an intelligent cover move of Pakistani Intelligence officials was won over to work as a very useful double agent.

Misuse of diplomatic immunity: The Indian visa office in Pakistan is invariably used for spotting, cultivating and recruiting agents for the Indian RAW. It found young Fazal, the public relations officer (PRO) of an Islamabad-based bank as a potential agent. Fazal visited the Indian Embassy quite frequently with visa applications relating to other employees of the bank as part of his routine duties and had little option but to stand in a long queue, awaiting his turn to submit these.

The behaviour of the staff at the visa office was generally rude and humiliating. Fazal never liked it but had to face it to keep his seniors happy. One day, when Fazal got his turn after standing in the queue for a long time, to present a few passports at the window, the visa clerk threw the passports at his face and shouted at him with remarks that all those who wanted a visa should visit themselves. Fazal was yet trying to muster his energies to overcome the shock effect when another Indian official approached him and addressed him in a most friendly tone, and condemned the behaviour of his colleague. He further told him that since he knew him and his duties in the bank, he would take him to his boss for seeking help for him.

To be concluded

Re: #71 gymnosophist

``I don`t see that among you guys. Not that I object to religiously oriented names. At the rate at which you guys are moving under the mullahs` thumbs, I am only amazed all of you don`t have the same name Abdullah (Slave of Allah).``

Ranjha

Sikandar

Sheharyar

Neelam

picked at random ofcourse.

Ref ali1 #: 69

You ask {Do you think Europeans had middle eastern names like Joseph, David and Mariam before they converted to Christianity? Do you think Filipino Christians who are ethnic Malays had names like

Paul and George before conversion?}

At least, the Europeans still have names like (I am picking them at random here) Mannfred, Marlene, Ingmar, etc. which certainly are purely ethnic and NOT related to Christianity. Also, during the Shah`s regime, a lot of Iranian kids were given purely pre-Islamic names. I don`t see that among you guys. Not that I object to religiously oriented names. At the rate at which you guys are moving under the mullahs` thumbs, I am only amazed all of you don`t have the same name Abdullah (Slave of Allah).

You say {it is ok for Hindus to pick names to identify with their gods, Ganesh, Ram, Shiv, Krishna etc. and for Indian Christians to pick names like George Fernandes to identify with their religion; It is just the poor Indian muslims who can`t pick their names as they want?? Only followers of facist organizations like RSS, with which you have nothing to do with, could possibly have a problem with that.}

Actually, it is the other way around. A Hindu or Christian can name his son anything he wants but a Muslim from the subcontinent must absolutely have an Arabic name. For instance, the famous film music director AR Rehman is a Hindu who has chosen the name Rehman because he says he was cured of some illness by a Muslim holy man. (Most Indians assume he is a Muslim because of his chosen name.) I have a Christian friend whose only name is Ramesh which is a purely Hindu name. I am yet to see a Muslim named Ganesh unless you are going to name your next son that to prove to me that you are going back to your pre-Islamic roots. I would like to see how that flies in the local mosque.

You suggest {Reading the poetry of Mohammed Iqbal, whose family was Kashmiri pundit before conversion can provide you with some pointers. Unlike you, maybe they saw the ``light``..}

Maybe the one additional incentive for conversion, that you so conveniently forget, is the prodding by a sword. Perhaps even the only incentive, in many cases. I was hoping that at some point you would acknowledge it but you got to start off with denial of history. In case you want a more recent example of that, the province of Nuristan in Afghanistan was called Kafiristan until the turn of the century because these people worshipped idols. The Amir of Afghanistan finally sent three columns of troops into this inaccessible place and made them convert on pain of death. The Nuristanis admit as much; you guys want to deny history.

You say {...and realized that they are not created from Bhagwan`s head and their low-caste servant is not created from Bhagwan`s butt and is indeed an absolutely equal human being.}

Tut, tut, tut. See how quickly you forget your pre-Islamic history. The low-caste man was created not from Bhagwan`s butt but from the feet of Brahma. Now, take yourself off to a local Hindu religious school to learn a little bit more about your pre-Islamic traditions.

In another one of your posts, you ranted about bringing down Brahminism just like Communism was brought down. Let us get one thing straight. The Brahmins -- and the Hindus, in general -- have kept alive their traditions for 5000 years. But they are open to change and are changing even as we speak. You guys nail your life permanently to some time in 8th century Arabia. But you don`t see any contradiction in the fact that while you accuse Hindus of being stuck in Vedic times you guys are irrevocably stuck in the 8th century. Perhaps the first thing that needs to be brought down is non-scientific, unthinking, blind belief. But you may have to reject everything you have learnt until now and start off with a fresh slate for that to happen. Definitely, a paradigm shift. You aren`t ready for that. Because you question the Quran less than I question the prejudices of my religion. And for that reason, and for that reason alone, I shall be a free man in the sense you can never be.

Good bye, Abdullah! At least, I am NOT Bhagwandas.

RE Pardesi # 68

Pardesi Sahib (or bibi?)

Thanks for showing your concern and commenting on the dangers of Talibanization of Pakistan. Could you also enlighten us on the efforts that you have made to reverse the saffornization of India? Hopelfully you won`t subscribe to the view (like most Indian Hindus) that while talibanization is bad for Pakistan, saffornization is the way forward for India.

Ali

RE gymno # 66

``you guys go pick names like Wasim, Waqar, Azhar and Shoaib to identify with the land from which you have never moved. Right?....``

People all over the world pick (and also change) their names to identify with their religion. Do you think Europeans had middle eastern names like Joseph, David and Mariam before they converted to Christianity? Do you think Filipino Christians who are ethnic Malays had names like Paul and George before conversion?

It is ok for Hindus to pick names to identify with their gods, Ganesh, Ram, Shiv, Krishna etc. and for Indian Christians to pick names like George Fernandes to identify with their religion; It is just the poor Indian muslims who can`t pick their names as they want?? Only followers of facist organizations like RSS, with which you have nothing to do with, could possibly have a problem with that.

``Why would a Jatt be considered a lower-caste? The Jatts rule the roost in Haryana and Western UP.``

Whether Jatts are lower-caste or upper-caste is your problem since it is purely a Hindu religious/social issue. Wasim Akram, and other Muslim Jatts don`t give a hoot whether Hindu bigots consider him upper caste or lower caste.

``So, tell me, why would a Kashmiri Pundit want to become a Muslim and the equal of his low-caste servant? What was in it for him?``

Reading the poetry of Mohammed Iqbal, whose family was Kashmiri pundit before conversion can provide you with some pointers. Unlike you, maybe they saw the ``light`` and realized that they are not created from Bhagwan`s head and their low-caste servant is not created from Bhagwan`s butt and is indeed an absolutely equal human being.

Ali