Twosome Troubles of Troublesome Two

I thought the following may be of interest to you and your readers:

Lawyer for Ousted Pakistan PM

Gunned Down

March 10, 2000 10:29 AM EST

KARACHI (Reuters) - Unidentified gunmen shot dead a lawyer defending Pakistan`s ousted prime minister Nawaz Sharif against a possible death sentence in a daylight

attack on his city center offices Friday.

Police and witnesses said Iqbal Raad, a leading member of Sharif`s defense team, died from a volley of bullets to his chest. An office assistant and the visiting son of a High

Court judge who were in the premises were also killed.

Pakistani military ruler General Pervez Musharraf called the killing ``a dastardly act of terrorism.``

The murder happened just weeks before President Clinton visits Pakistan.

A spokesmen for Sharif`s Pakistan Muslim League (PML), which was ousted in a bloodless Oct. 12 coup by Musharraf, said Raad had received a number of threats but declined to elaborate.

``For the past some days he was complaining that he was receiving threats,`` Raja Zafarul Haq told Reuters in Islamabad.

He declined to comment on a possible motive for the slaying, but said it would hamper Sharif`s defense, which resumes Monday.

The head of the legal team defending Sharif, Khwaja Sultan, said that the defense was ``terrified at the killing and would like to know the motives behind it.``

I was looking for appropriate location(s) to post the following. My intention was to post it on as many boards as I could.

I spent considerable time looking for the appropriate ones. After wasting half an hour or so I saw this board and decided to post it here too. We aren`t that different from each other, or are we? If you see it elsewhere, it is because I want it to have as much exposure on the Chowk as is relevantly possible:

U.N. Protests ... on

International Women`s Day

March 8, 2000 1:09 PM EST

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters)

UNICEF, the U.N. Children`s Fund, condemned ``honor killings,`` an ancient practice in which men kill female relatives for forced or suspected sexual activity outside marriage, even if they had been raped.

In 1997, some 300 women were killed in the name of ``honor`` in Pakistan alone. In Yemen, as many as 400 such crimes took place in 1997, while in India an estimated 5,000 women are killed annually because their in-laws consider their dowries inadequate.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnmmmmmmmmm

Women`s Day Marked With

Protest ...

March 8, 2000 2:42 PM EST

LONDON (Reuters) - Women marked International Women`s Day Wednesday with protests at continued violence and discrimination, while men praised them and gave them perfume and flowers.

Acting U.N. Coordinator for Afghanistan Sayed Ahmed Farah, told a news

conference in neighboring Pakistan: ``In terms of attitude, in terms of approach, I am not saying there has been a 100 percent turnaround.

``But yes, (we have moved) from a very tough and difficult period to a much more flexible period,`` he said.

He said the Taliban had slowly allowed the reopening of some of the girls`

schools it closed after capturing the capital, Kabul in 1996 and allowed restricted health facilities to women.

gymnosophist:

Well said, mainly. Laikin kiyouN waqt zaayah kar rahay ho? Don`t know if you know Hindi/Urdu.
Am working on English version of the poem I posted earlier.

rgds
t

(Udayakumar: hope you will understand.)

Dama dam Must Qalandar = Ali1-- re#10:

---------DAWAT-------
Aao kay shub ko seh`r kar daiN
Aao kay is shub ko seh`r kar daiN
Aao kay is tareek shub ko seh`r kar daiN
-----Zoolmut kay andhairoN ko
-----Such ka chiraqgh dikhaa daiN
-----Yassiyat ko itminaan
-----Jeh`l ko such ka noor daiN
-----Kaali ghata-ouN say
-----Sehraa ki piyaas bhujha-aiN
-----Jung aur barbadi kay raygistaan ko
-----A`mun aaur khoosh-hali kay nakhlistan daiN
Aao hath baRRhao
kay shubb guzri jaati hay
Aao qad`m oothao
kay poo` phatna chahti hay
Jo hum na qad`m ootha-aiN gay
Is doori kona mitaiN-gay
Tou sub hamaiN choRRh jaiN-gay
Tou sub hamaiN bohat peechay choRRh jaiN-gay.

Aao kay shub ko seh`r ........

30---------


P.S. No, I`m not going to Banglore, but if you know someone who is attending, please send this over.
P.P.S. Can someone attempt a translation in English?

Udayakumar:

Why South Asian Poor People`s Movement?

Why not `concerned` people or simply `people`?

And why not join the Pakistan India Peoples` Forum for Peace and Democracy? In fact why don`t we have a Chowk chapter for this forum? I believe their annual gathering this year is in Banglore.

(Digression: We can charter a flight out of Chicago or New York and discuss the intricacies of halaal/non halaal food and different kinds of veg. dishes all the way to Banglore over the most popular South Asian drink, Scotch n soda or vodka and rooh afza?)

rgds

t

P.S. Yaar gymnosophist, kuch tou khuda yaa bhagwaan ka khouf karo. Itna bhi ba naa oos kou sharminda karo.
P.P.S. I`d have taken your dare: but am happily into this great relationship for the past seventeen days, you see.

Where there are Indians and Pakistanis, there is hope:

From DAWN today:

Cyber-love lands Pakistani in Indian jail!


NEW DELHI, Jan 8: A Pakistani stockbroker who landed in India to marry a woman he has been dating on the internet was arrested in the western city of Bombay for violating visa rules, reports said on Saturday.
Abab Ahmedi, 25, a Lahore stockbroker, has been in police custody since Dec 18 for among other
reasons providing a wrong address of stay, the Indian Express reported.
Police said Ahmedi, a Muslim, met his Hindu management student wife in a chat room on the internet and they communicated regularly through e-mail in the last one year. Ahmedi flew down to Bombay on Dec 2, 1999 and the two lovers went to New Delhi to escape the wrath of the girl`s family and got married there. They returned to Bombay on Dec 17.
The next day someone tipped off the police that Ahmedi was not staying in a hotel as mentioned in his visa form but with a family in the city. The police arrested the cyberlover.
He has been remanded to judicial custody for violating India`s Foreigners Act until Jan 11. Police confirmed Ahmedi had no criminal links. Meanwhile his wife, whom the authorities refused to name, said in her plea for his release that they would go to Pakistan once he was let off.-dpa

Sadhana:

Very interesting list. You have captured the contradictions in Pakistani positions very appropriately. It could be considered humerous, were it not responsible for so much violence in South Asia.

syjam:

I am proud of you as an Indian. I don`t care if you are an Ahmadia, you are a true muslim who understands the spirit of his faith. I am happy that young muslims like yourself are rapidly becoming a part of the national maintstream and moving into the middle class. India needs people like yourself. I believe most hindus in India genuinely want to build a close relationship with the muslim community that will be mutually beneficial and lead to prosperity for everyone.

It is sad to see that the Kashmiris are currently unhappy with India. Perhaps Indian muslims can step forward and build a bridge between Kashmiris and other Indians. The country will be indebted to the muslim community if that happens.

Pardesi,

You asked for differences between Sunnis and Ahmedis: Ahmedis believe in a prophet (Ahmed Mirza) who lived in 19th century India, while Sunnis believe Mohammed was the final prophet.

Syjam,

As a Sunni muslim from Pakistan, and speaking for myself (and I am sure there are millions more like me who do not have the time or inclination to be as vocal as the fundementalists) I also think that if someone choses to interpret the Quran differently than myself, that is his/her business, not mine and it is not for me to define what religion that person claims to belong to. I am glad you are doing well in India, and wish you further prosperity. We Pakistanis too will rise above all this mess one day.

Re:SamirJB#97

The tendency of desis to invent external ancestry is not limited to muslims alone. Upper caste hindus proudly talk of their central asian aryan ancestry. Kashmiri Pundits claim that their ancestors came from the Caucasus mountains. Rajputs and Jats claim ancestry from Scythians in Central Asia. Some of this may be valid but I suspect that there has been so much intermixing in the subcontinent that the result is a complete mixture of races and ethnicities. This is particularly true among Punjabis. You can see people like Shashi Kapoor with almost Grecian features, while others like Inder Gujral have a more desi look. In the Pakistani cricket team, both Ejaz Ahmed and Wasim Akram are Punjabis but they have tremendous difference in skin complexion and facial features.

The issue of pan-islamism vs indic identity is actually moot. The rest of the Islamic world has excellent relations with India and consider it as a close friend. Besides Pakistan, no one feels the need for a civilization clash between Islam and Hinduism. Hence pan-islamism need not be contradictory to India. A muslim in South Asia can easily have a dual identity based on pan-islamism and Indian culture. From a historic perspective, hindu-muslim conflict occured only during the initial stages of contact between the two religions and during Aurangzeb`s time. Even Aurangzeb`s hatred of hindus is attributed to his suspicion that the Rajputs of Mewar contributed to the political misunderstanding between his father Shah Jehan and grandfather Jehangir, resulting in his separation from his parents. Otherwise, hindus and muslims never had any genocidal conflict like the crusades in the middle east. There have been many muslim administrations in the subcontinent from the Arabs in Sindh and Multan, Delhi Sultanate, Mughals, Nawabs of individual kingdoms etc. They all accomodated hindus and vice-versa. In fact, Mughal empire spread far and wide with the active support of Rajputs.

I suspect that the present day Indo-Pak clashes are more the manifestation of deep rooted instincts for fratricide among North Indian desis. This fratricide used to occur in pre-Islamic days as well, except that it was based on allegiance to kingdoms. In fact, Hindu kings used to regularly conquer and massacare people of neighboring hindu kingdoms. The epic Mahabharat shows how competing groups of cousins fight an all encompassing war for ruling north India, involving all the regional kingdoms. This phenomenon continues today under religious cover as is obvious in the Indo-Pak conflict.

arungupta #88 writes: ``On the Harappa ruins, supposedly there is a sign saying that (these ruins) is what happens to Kafirs.``

You are wrong. I have been to Harappa and there is no such sign.

Isnt there enough trouble between Indian and Pakistani governments for you to try to build up bad feelings between individuals of both countries on Chowk as well?

Satyavedi #83 writes ``But, Amir Khusro, Akbar, ShahJehan , Aurangzeb and Jinnah are still Indians......Only recently in Rediff, one historian included Jinnah among the greatest Indians of the century...We care for our heritage..``

I had the chance to stop by overnight in Delhi a couple of years back (my first and last visit to India) and was surprised to see how the Mughal traditions were still strong in this city: from the Mughal motifs in the hotel I stayed at and particularly to the main road named Aurangzeb Road. So while I dont agree with some of the things you said in your earlier post, I think you are right here.

Re:Tahmed321 #60

Well, the border between India and Pakistan seems to be fairly tight along Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat. There is a lot of fencing in Punjab. It seems to have worked well, otherwise the Lashkar types could simply walk into Punjab or Rajasthan and catch a bus to Srinagar. It seems that India has not paid enough attention to sealing the LOC. There are no discussions or debates on this critical issue. Anytime there is a terrorist attack in Kashmir, Advani and the army generals call for more coordination between security agencies, when the clear problem is the porous nature of LOC that permits militants to walk in without any restrictions. I think a combination of massive fencing in accessible areas with extensive landmine placement in inaccessible areas can seal most of the LOC.

As far as political solution of Kashmir is concerned, I have repeatedly called for a compromise political solution with soft borders in Kashmir. I have also mentioned that Pakistan should replace militancy with a political movement in Kashmir. Unfortunately Pakistan is totally wedded to the concept of militancy as the only policy in Kashmir, although it brings absolutely no returns to Pakistanis or Kashmiris. I suspect that if the LOC is sealed up, militancy in Kashmir will die out to due to a lack of material support from Pakistan. This will cause Kashmiris to develop a proper political movement to voice their concerns and solve their problems using parliamentary means. India would also have to withdraw its security forces since the threat of violence would be significantly diminished. Pakistan would be forced to develop a new policy on the Kashmir issue as well.

Amit#54

You wish to know why the Indian govt cannot put a fence around LOC. Suggest you (a) ask US Pentagon why it cannot stop illegal aliens slipping across it`s Southern border, or why it could not stop N. Vietnamese slipping down South; (b) ask French military why the Maginot Line proved useless in WWII; (c)closer home, check with Indian military why in 1965 the re-inforced concrete bunkers in Chhamb proved irrelevent to Pakistani army. I suggest you think of some other solution, something creative (i.e. something that India and Pakistan governments have failed to come up with in 50 years).

gymnospohist#57

So I learnt something new from you - 30% of IT people in India are female. I agree that this will bring about big changes, since societies where women are on equal footing with men tend to be more civilized in many ways. Another ``grass root`` movement that is changing the status of women is microcredit (about 7 million women in Bangladesh are part of that movement), since it gives them a sense of control over their lives. I think (this could be wishful thinking) that it is a question of time before the governments of India and and Pakistan will end this ``race to the bottom`` and start competing in a more positive ``race to the top`` - like in literacy rates, status of women and so on. In that case, even if one country wins, the other one wins anyway (since it is better to be neigbouring a country that enjoys peace and prosperity than one that is full of problems).

Re:narain#32

I agree with you that it is pointless to talk to Pakistan because Musharraf is firmly in the pocket of extreme hardliners like Hamid Gul, Javed Nasir types. Hence there is zero chance of a negotiated solution on any issue.

One thing that I wanted to know from folks who are experts on security is why is it so difficult for India to stop all militant infiltration into Kashmir? It seems like infiltration from Pakistan is a serious problem that should have been solved by now. Since Pakistan claims that the Kashmir problem is an indigenous uprising, sealing the LOC should be okay with them as well. For instance, in all accessible areas, there could be fencing within a couple of kilometers from the LOC. For inaccessible terrain, there could be landmines placed in a width of 1-2 kms all along those parts of LOC. The Kargil intruders had left behind landmines that slowed down Indian reoccupation. Why can`t the same be used in the rough terrain in LOC ?

Re:Alil#49, rajanjua#45

There is a major misperception in India that Pakistan is a highly religious, Islamic nation that disavows its pre-Islamic past. In fact the opposite seems to be true. In my interactions with Pakistanis I have noticed that they like to make a big show of religion but violate virtually every aspect of Islam. They are more interested if the next person is following the religion rather than if they themselves are living to its high standards. I also find them obsessed with caste and racial purity.

One of my Pakistani friends Irfan used to tell me about his undergraduate days in Lahore. It seems that in his college hostel, religious fundamentalists would come regularly to convert muslims to even more extreme muslims. Irfan and his friends got fed up with this and decided to teach the fundamentalists a lesson. Next time the preachers showed up, all the students greeted them in their underwear only !! The fundamentalists ran away shouting ``Tobah, Tobah``. Go figure !!

I have recently read a couple of books by Pakistani author Tehmina Durrani titled ``My Feudal Lord`` and ``Blasphemy``. If even a fraction of what she says is true, it is a shocking exposure of what goes on in Pakistan. In the first book, she talks about her ex-husband Ghulam Mustafa Khar who was the Chief Minister of Punjab. This man commits the most vilest of acts and follows up with prayers to compensate for them in a never ending cycle. In the second book, she talks about a Pir who basically runs a shrine and acts like a demi-god. As people worship him, he does extreme immoral acts while paying lip service to Islam.

gymnosophist #23

Glad to learn one of your cousins is married to a Dalit lady, and here`s wishing them happiness and prosperity. I wonder what she would have to say though about your going around daring us Pakistanis to marry Dalit girls (as if Dalit girls have some kind of a handicap).

Re: sadna #111

I very much agree that the Indian government is doing quite a lot more for the Dalits than the Pakistan government is doing for the Ahmadis. And I am fully aware of all that you just mentioned. However, one must not oversee the fact that the reason I brought it up was to equate the injustice brought down on a certain sect. Ahmadis are a very small minority in Pakistan and unfortunate as it is, their voices can be overpowered by much larger fraction. I, myself being a Shia, know the brunt of it, but am still very happy and proud to be part of Pakistan, as do many other Shias. For the record, most of the educated lot in Pakistan does not agree with the treatment inflicted upon Ahmadis, the same way they do not agree with the way governements have bungled up the constitution.

What I can`t understand is this whole ``people living in greenhouses shouldn`t throw stones`` principle. If you notice, the Dalit note was a response to syjam`s initial comment on how Ahmadis are mistreated in Pakistan. Perhaps syjam needs to know that the term `Dalit` in itself means `opressed`.

Re: sadna #113

What you might term as ``contradictory`` could also be interpretted as self-critical, couldn`t it? Now, if the `logic` follows a straight line in the Indian press, and the straight line is itself heading into a wrong direction, is that a better place to be?

Re: syjam #115

(``it is the same Iqbal who did the about turn (as did Jinnah)``)

M.K.Gandhi officialy served with the British army, recruiting officers for war quite diligently.

Within a few years, Gandhi then came up with his famous and idealistic non-violence concept, which - in essence - rated higher on a moral ground. There is nothing wrong with an individual seeing the light after a while, as did Iqbal and Jinnah.

Re: syjam #112

(``Gandhiji is the norm``)

In keeping with Gandhiji`s non-violence principles, India in the past few months has purchased new equipment for the army, with the total cost - excluding the much-touted T-90 Russian Tanks - being US$2-3 billion.

(``Come down and see how many Hindus work for my father`s factory.``)

Likewise, scores of Pakistanis and Indians work for English companies in the UK, where most of them get paid considerably more than what they would if they were employed back home. Does that, by your same logic then, suggest that the British should never have left India?

(``Please, stop worrying about the Indian Muslims.``)

I might remind you that if you trace your comment thread, it is you who is worrying about the Ahmadis in Pakistan.

(``In India the richest Indian is a Muslim``)

The following is from an article called ``India: Growth and Inequity: 1997`` by Sonalde Desai and Katherine Sreedhar:

``Research suggests that the minority Muslims are worse off in several measures of well-being than the dominant Hindus, particularly in Urban areas. About 25 percent of urban Hindus have a secondary school education or better, but only 15 percent of Muslims do. Many more Muslims than Hindus in urban areas are poor, spending only Rs.160 per month or less - 53 percent of Muslims compared to 39 percent of Hindus. In another example, Hindu police officers during the Bombay religious riots of 1992-93 were observed watching atrocities by Hindu mobs against Muslim slum residents without intervening to stop them.``

When you present things through rose-tinted glasses and only concentrate on the beautiful events surrounding a few members of a larger community, you often miss relaity. It seems surprising to me that you yourself speak up against atrocities upon Ahmadis in Pakistan, but when it comes to facing up to problems Muslims have encountered in India, it`s a totally different picture. Please take a visit to the Amnesty International site, where, along with the Ahmadi problems in Pakistan, and perhaps you will find understand the only Muslim-majority state in India wants to break away from India. Premji/Wipro would make for a good argument, but then so would a seven-year old Muslim girl molested by an Indian soldier.

Good Bye!

Thanks everyone. This is the last post! It was fun to read from some of the very learned and balanced Pakistanis that ever are! and lastly another 2cents of mine

Religion practiced in heart is a great source of peace.

Religion practiced in politics destroys it all

May every one prosper and all ill wills perish

Amen

Allah Hafiz

Matin ( SyJam)

Amit

I appreciate the spirit of your post but there is something I would like to caution you about. A subtle trap that the Hindu community falls into.

You tend to be ``patronizing`` to compensate for the Thakreys.

You write:

``The country will be indebted to the muslim community if that happens.``

What on earth does that mean. It is as much the duty of a ``Muslim`` Indian citizen as it is of a Hindu or Christian or whatever. There is no question of debt here. Every citizen as per Indian constitution; (letter and spirit)has the same rights and responsibilities. Muslims should be held to the same standards as Hindus.The Param Veer Chakra citation of ``Abdul Hamid`` does not say ``Thanks for laying your life down for the country despite being a Muslim``

And on the other hand, if some one fails, say ``Salim`` failed or ``John`` failed or ``Ram`` failed not the ``community``. It is hard to do but will be worth trying.

Alireza:

I forgot to add one more thing

Our Iqbal says

``Majahab nahi sikhata aapas mai bair rakhana; Hindi hai hum watan hai Hindosta humara``

Your Iqbal says

``Chino Arab humara, Hindosta humara, Muslim hai hum watan hai saara jahan humara``

(For some readers who may not be aware; it is the same Iqbal who did the about turn (as did Jinnah) and one India`s most beloved songs is penned by him )

My post #108

Read the first line as ``Some Pakistanis wanting it all ways`` meaning making self-contradictory arguments. A lot of this is seen in the Pakistani opinion pieces in the English press available on the web. I have seen plenty of stuff I don`t agree with in the Indian press which looks partisan or simply not credible, but at least the logic follows a straight line and is not self-contradictory.

Another item to add to my list:

17. Pakistan had a moral right to fight armed battles with the Indian occupation forces across the LOC in Kargil resulting in more than 1000 deaths overall and will do so again but India is the one who is irresponsibly war-mongering by refusing to talk about a peaceful settlement.

Sadhana

Tahmed321

Thanks for your good wishes. I hope the majority in the Nation of Pakistan realizes one day like you do.

Alireza:

Yes, Thakrey is a moron but there is a basic difference

In India, Thakrey is an exception and Gandhiji is the norm. In Pakistan Chowkwallahs are exceptions and mullahs are the norm.

In India the richest Indian is a Muslim ( Premji/Wipro) In Pakistan my cousin is not fit to get a bank loan because he is slightly different.

(Come down and see how many Hindus work for my father`s factory. It may just make you happy to see them working for a Muslim (Oops, I forgot. we are not quite Muslims are we?))

In India, Ambedkar burns ``Manusmriti`` and gets applauded for it. In Pakistan a 6-year-old Christian boy gets punished with lashes from the court for allegedly writing something ``anti-islamic`` on a wall

In India, we still have Jamaat-e-Islami-Hind. Tell me, honestly, can RSS-Pak exist in your country?

Please, stop worrying about the Indian Muslims. We will deal with the Thakreys and the RSS. We don`t need your pity.



As far as the dalits go, we are taking care of the injustices. There in fact, is a huge affirmative action program. Show me one positive thing your government has done to protect the Ahmadis. or for that matter any minority. (Oops again! I forgot, you have rarely had any real government. Should I then say military?)

One more reality check. The whole ruling coalition is essentially supported by the lower caste parties.

alireza #109

You say

``Ever heard of Dalits?``

Just interested, tell me, have you heard of Dalit Panthers, an active political party in India? Have you heard of Dalit sahitya and Dalit poetry, have you read any? Have you heard of the Dalit Sahitya Akademi? Also the newly constituted Dalit Human Rights Commission? Also, have you heard of BR Ambedkar the architect of the Indian Constitution?

I think Mayawati, former Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh, India`s most populous state is of Dalit origins, though I am not very sure.

Much needs to be done to erase centuries of injustice. However, the nation is not responding by exclusion, it is making efforts at inclusion. Doesnot the term `Kafir` denote exclusion in an Islamic state?

Sadhana

(``The gutter of pakistan will be no different from that in india``)

Actually, it will.

An Indian gutter, in the event of getting clogged, would immediately accuse Pakistan of helping ISI to infiltrate into its part of the gutter, would term the infiltrator as an Islamic militant, then an Afghan mercenary, then a Pakistan army regular and finally a Pakistan SSG commando in an undercover operation and would present identity cards to prove that it indeed is a Pakistan army person in an undercover operation to change the status of the LOC, and then vow to defend every inch of its gutter.

Re: syjam #105

(``Thank Allah that my grandfather decided to stay back with those ``Hindus`` in India``)

Aside from being very happy for your grandfather that his decision to stay back in India is vindicated by a newspaper article in The Frontier Post, here`s an idea of how even the press in India works:

``US nails Pakistan on hijack charge.``

- Chidanand Rajghatta, The Indian Express

1/25/00

``U.S. Finds No Pakistani Government Link

to India Hijacking.``

- Norman Kempster, Los Angeles Times

1/26/00

``We do not have evidence that the Pakistan government was in any way involved in that hijacking``

- Bill Clinton, 1/25/00

(``He is essentially asking any one who does not agree with him to go to India!``)

Please try to look up some of Bal Thackeray`s speeches. They are always very clear about where Indian Muslims should move to.

(``cousins are deemed ``Kafirs`` in the ``Muslim Land`` because they are Ahamadis``)

Ever heard of the Dalits?

Some Pakistanis wanting in all ways, Brig(R) Usman Khalid included:(due apologies to all others)

1. We are among the most refined, well-informed and sophisticated citizens of the world and open to all ideas of the world, but we can find nothing good in anything Indian, even Indian people particularly Brahmins and banias.

2. Islam in Pakistan was always meant to be tolerant, all-embracing and secular and Pakistani national ideology is clearly more equitable and modern than any other system, particularly the caste-system or that prevailing in the immoral West, but in practice and as a people we refuse to tolerate Indians of all shades and Muslims of some shades. Also, unlike Indians who oppress all the subnationalities in their midst, we are free of parochialism and ethnic divisions in the true Pakistani tradition. But in any discussion among ourselves, we can instantly identify the ethnic origin of the participants and our replies must always reflect this recognition.

3. We teach our children that we have always dominated Indians culturally, politically, militarily but also teach our young ones to hate Indians as enemies denying us our just due.

4. We lay claim to the Machiavellian Chanakya and the many pre-Islamic greats who were after all based in Pakistan but all the cunning statecraft and masterful trickery is currently shown by Indians which is consistent with their different and inglorious ancestors` actions when we were ruling them.

5. The idea and the ideology of Pakistan is many centuries old, India is a misbegotten state with no good reason to exist. However, if it wasn`t for many treacherous and inflexible Hindu leaders like Nehru, Md.Jinnah wouldnot have had to insist on Partition.

6. Pakistan`s role in the Kashmir conflict is nothing to do with Islam, its purely a matter of self-determination in the best traditions of human rights, but India ought not have gotten Kashmir during Partition as it was majority Muslim and that gives us a right to it today.

7. Pakistan`s role in the Kashmir conflict is nothing to do with Islam, but we worry about the plight of Muslims. Other Kashmiris we will naturally call back later. Muslims suffer under non-Muslim rule. On a personal level we feel concerned for the 130 million Muslims in India; as for those numbering 148 million in our country, well, their problems are not so systemic.

8. Years of misgovernance and corruption in Pakistan, looting of state resources by Pakistanis and rigged and sham elections justifies armed takeover and suspension of democracy by the military. The Prime Minister and Foreign Minister can be imprisoned and tried for sedition and Pakistanis ought be accept all this patiently and passively as they just at present incapable of choosing who should govern them.

Years of misgovernance by Indian leaders at the center and Kashmiri leaders in the state, corruption and looting of state resources by Kashmiris justifies armed war and violence against India and Indians. Hence, we can condone sabotage of national, state and panchayat elections in Kashmir and elimination by assasination of Kashmiri political party activists. On the other hand, those supporting us and pursuing seccession ought not be tried even for sedition, Indians ought to accept all this violence passively as Pakistanis deserve a say in which Kashmiris ought to govern.

9. China is a great ally, and an old friend while India is an enemy. Lack of self-determination in Communist Chinese Kashmir is morally justified by our supreme national interest. War with India over Indian Kashmir is morally justified even if we destroy ourselves.

10. We donot have human rights assurances for political activity in our own country but India is infringing on human rights by denying people their right to seccede to us and we reserve the right of our citizens to go there and participate in their struggle.

10. Islamic fundamentalism can never gain ground in our country, but if the American President doesnot visit or Western money doesnot come through on time, then the resulting swell in support for extremists will send Pakistan irrevocably down the path to fundamentalism.

12. We don`t support fundamentalism in our own country, but we condone our citizens training for and supporting armed jihad as a moral cause in Kashmir, Kosovo, Chechnya and other places.

13. Its OK for our citizens to get involved in wars far from our borders due to our moral and religious imperatives, but Indians are looking to further their hegemonistic designs when they fight us on their borders with us or even threaten to do so.

14. Islamic extremists only fight just wars for `human rights` and `freedom` and we support them ideologically and materially even though these warriors of human rights tolerate no dissent on any matter, religious, ideological political or sartorial.

15. Also, many such extremists have acquired religious education and spent their student days here, however neither can Pakistan be held accountable for these extremists` actions nor do such extremists exist in Pakistan.

16. We havenot yet agreed among ourselves on a stable paradigm of governance and we are steeped in debt and corruption. India is struggling with these severe and threatening problems, too. Also there is this apparent potential for socio-religious tension in Pakistan which is daunting us and our rulers and preempting bold corrective actions. However, India considers us a prize catch and is waiting to take us over.

Sadhana

syjam #105

sattar2 #105 (Pakistan in the year 3000)

Excellent postings. Is it possible for one of you gentlemen to educate a non-Muslim about differences between Sunni and Ahmadia branches in general and why Sunni fundamentalists in Pakistan would consider Ahmadias as non-Muslims?

Thanks.

Quality of press in Pakistan!

Here is an article in a reputed daily `The Frontier Post` today as a testimonial to the great rational journalistic minds in Pakistan.

He is essentially asking any one who does not agree with him to go to India! Thank Allah that my grandfather decided to stay back with those ``Hindus`` in India and not follow his sister and Brother in law to Pakistan.

SyJam

BTW, we are working and propsering as citizens of a secular country whereas my cousins are deemed ``Kafirs`` in the ``Muslim Land`` because they are Ahamadis



Discrediting the military

Brig. (R) Usman Khalid

An important piece of news was released by a news agency last week. The title of the news was, ``The real target of Pakistan`s enemies is its armed forces.`` The gist of the news was that the chiefs of three armed services of India had proposed the formation of a secret service more potent than the infamous RAW to confront the ISI of Pakistan. Its task would be to discredit and bring into disrepute the ISI and the armed forces of Pakistan; undermine public support for Pakistan`s nuclear deterrent, for Jihad in Kashmir and to Taliban rule in Afghanistan. It was also reported that India has decided to mobilise its old contacts and friends in Pakistan to pursue its goals. The news is not surprising.

Our nuclear deterrent, the Jihad in Kashmir and Pakistan`s close brotherly relations with Afghanistan are the three pillars of our security and that if any one of these is knocked down, India would exploit the situation by an invasion. I reiterate that India sees in the accession of military to power in Pakistan as another opportunity to demonise, isolate and invade Pakistan. The friends of India have begun their work in Pakistan as well in USA and Europe.

The MQM (Altaf) released the canard that the ISI had a hand in the aircrash in which General Ziaul Haq was killed. Foreign Minister Abdus Sattar launched his crusade to undermine the credibility of Pakistan`s nuclear deterrent by fallacious arguments in support of Pakistan signing the CTBT. He attacked the critics of CTBT viciously going as far as chiding Qazi Hussain Ahmed as leader of a party that opposed Pakistan. That slur was particularly abominable because Qazi Sahib has been in the forefront in supporting Jihad in Kashmir and Afghanistan while the leader of the party that led the Pakistan Movement was ready to knock down all the three pillars of our national defence and is now under trial for offences including treason.

I was alarmed that the English language press in Pakistan gave out full details of ranting by the foreign minister in support of the CTBT but the counter-arguments that drew his wrath were hardly even mentioned. An English daily in particular, appears to have taken it upon itself to promote the themes of Indian propaganda against our armed forces on regular basis. In its editorial titled ``Confidence is the key`` (London issue of 13 January) it blames the heavy defence expenditure for Pakistan`s economic problems.

Before falsehood and slander of the armed forces become routine, it is necessary to put the defence budget into perspective.

At present, the annual defence expenditure is 145 billion rupees. The amount earmarked in the budget for debt servicing is 300 billion rupees. The defence budget provides livelihood for more than half a million service families and a similar number of civilian families in support services, staff and military industry. The defence budget feeds, directly and indirectly, about 5 million mouths in Pakistan. The defence services are the biggest employer of educated persons selected on merit rather than sifarish. The salaries of service personnel support the economy of many towns where the military have their bases. The food, fuel and fodder; weapons, wireless and vehicles; apparel, accommodation and accessories needed by the military are the only stable source of orders for a number of industries. Almost all of the money spent on defence circulates in Pakistan and supports its economic health.

In contrast, the money spent on servicing loans is taken out of circulation and is recessionary in its economic impact. It is true that some of the money spent on defence could be spent on health and education. But that transfer would have little impact on the economy although it could have impact on health and education standards. But the money transferred from loan servicing to health and education would benefit the economy and improve health and education yielding economic benefit as well as positive social impact.

What is infinitely more damaging than even the debt-servicing budget is the figure of 300 billion rupees estimated by experts to represent taxes not collected and money wasted or embezzled. It is quite apparent that the target for budget reform and economy should lie elsewhere rather than in the defence budget. The impact of defence expenditure on our economy is benign because it goes to those who serve their country honestly in tough, dangerous and demanding work in contrast with twice the amount that remains uncollected from the rich and powerful or goes into the pockets of corrupt officials. Three hundred billion rupees are the bills we pay for the theft, embezzlement, cuts and commissions. The argument of defence versus development is farcical.

Our country is corrupt. It steals rather than spends in the name of development. We have very little to show for our public sector investment for which we have accumulated 32 billion dollars of foreign debt and we pay 300 billion rupees every year to service. The defence forces, in contrast, are the only public sector where high level of motivation and sacrifice, and admirable sense of duty have been sustained in very difficult circumstances. We have an expansionist and aggressive country eight times our size in forces and resources as our neighbour. We are fortunate that we have a cost-effective nuclear deterrent and armed forces we can be proud of. The performance of our boys during Kargil operation made that point convincingly.

Our country has a lot to show for the investment we have made in the defence of our country over the years. The enemies of Pakistan do not only attack the defence budget; the Indian lobbies and their agents have become bold enough to attack the armed forces directly. The editorial attack in the newspaper in question on the defence budget was followed a day later (on 14 January) by an article by Dr Inayatullah, under the title ``Five traumas and the military.`` He said, ``the five traumas are the birth, isolation, bisection, humiliation and encirclement of Pakistan.`` A patriotic Pakistani would not dismiss the entire history of Pakistan as that of traumas and justify Indian invasion and efforts to hurt and harm Pakistan as inevitable. Only a Hindu or an implacable enemy of Pakistan would describe our history in those terms. Is it not astonishing that he describes the birth of our country as a trauma? Even human birth is attended by pain; but it is a source of joy to those to whom the baby belongs. The birth of Pakistan was an ecstatic experience for the Muslims of India. Those who felt different, like L.K. Advani, migrated to India. So should Inayatullah who attacks the military and wrote, ``The military keeps the memory of the traumas alive to sustain its power.``

That this person taught our children at our national university at Islamabad gives a measure of the extent to which detractors of Pakistan have infiltrated our academic establishment. Bad-mouthing Pakistan is not just acceptable; it has become a sort of badge of honour. In any case, how does the military keep the memory of traumas alive? And why should we forget the chapters of history particularly when they have been traumatic? We should remember and learn from them! There is neither logic nor truth in what he wrote. Yet, a national daily prints the trash. We seem to have learnt nothing from the part played by university teachers as vehicles of Indian propaganda to create ethnic polarisation and hatred that led to the `bisection` of Pakistan in 1971. If we took no action to deal with the likes of Sheikh Mujib and his professorial Goebbels that continue to flourish even in the remaining Pakistan, there will be more traumas, whether we forget the old ones or remember them.

alireza,

An example of what i am taliking about. Show me a report , even pak news report, which says that the three were interrogated to find the indentity of the hijackers.

‘Zargar back in Kashmir’

Muzaffarabad (PoK), January 24 (AFP)

MILITANT GROUP Al-Umar said on Monday that its leader, Mushtaq Ahmad Zargar, had reached Kashmir following his release last month by India in exchange for hostages on hijacked IA flight IC 814.

Zargar was freed on New Year’s eve, along with two other Kashmir militants, at Kandahar in Afghanistan, ending the eight-day hijacking drama. He later arrived in Muzaffarabad, capital of the Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, early this month. “Our chief has now arrived in Kupwara district in Kashmir,” the outfit said in a statement.

A Pak cleric, Maulana Masood Azhar, who had also been released by India in the swap deal, arrived in Pakistan after Zargar. The third man freed was Ahmed Omar Sayyed, a British Islamic militant. His whereabouts are not known.

Alireza,

The gutter of pakistan will be no different from that in india, for that matter any where in the world. Again you have missed the diference, collective and the individual.

What i am interested in are the high ways, the promenades, the places of display of the collective. I am interseted in the reaction of the govt against sectarian killing, the treatment of the hijackers by the pak govt. The refusal of the pak govt and the legislature to condemn honour killing. Refusal of the pak govt and the educated to condemn fatwa on salman rushdie. Refusal of the govt to restrain the jihadic forces from occupying kargill. The editorial wisdom of the dawn in printing killings in kashmir the feedback to the supporters of jihad.

Let me once again make it clear, the distinction between the colective and the individual. I support anarchy at the individual level, that is the ultimate expression of creativity. Honour killing, jihad you name it, it is alright with me. But at the collective level as represented by the govt and other organisations that represent the people, i believe in some guiding principles, some standards. This represent the collective desire and aspirations and the values of the society. This is moulded by the articulate, the educated, the elite. Look at the news paper in pakistan, how many criticise pak govt and society. For example, how many dowry deaths are reported in india. Check `deccan herald`, on average at least one a day. How many honour killings in pakistan. Almost none if one goes by the reports and as you say, you believe in it.. It is this refusal to report the reality, that self censorship that compells the editor of nation to remove passages from kuldip nayyars article to make it palatable to the pakistanis, it is that convoluted thinking that prompted a prominant chowkwala to suggest that kuldip nayyar is sending edited versions to nation, that i call collective pakistan.

There are a lot of good individuals ``Even`` in pakistan, they contribute nothing in the destiny of their country if they are not bold enough to criticise aspects it.

Please do point out the terror of the collective in india, do not point to the gutter.

Re: #97 SameerJB

I really enjoy reading your posts Sameer. Apart from the fact that we are pretty much on the same wavelength, I appreciate your posts on Punjabi history and culture. I thought you migth find the following quotes from Iqbal interesting.

``Islam does not recognise caste or race or colour. In fact Islam is the only outlook on life which has already solved the colour question, at least in the Muslim world, a question which modern European civilization, has not been able to solve. Pan-Islamism, thus interpreted was taught by the Prophet and will live for ever. In this sense Pan-Islamism is only Pan-Humanism. In this sense every Muslim is a Pan-Islamist and ought to be so.``

``Sir Fazl-i-Husain is perfectly correct when he says that political Pan-Islamism never existed. It has existed, if at all, only in the imagination of those who invented the phrase or possibly as a diplomatic weapon in the hands of Sultan Abdul Hamid Khan of Turkey. Even Jamal-ud-Din Afghani, whose name is closely associated with what is called Pan-Islamic movement, never dreamed of a unification of Muslims into a political State. It is significant that in no Islamic language-Arabic, Persian or Turkish does there exist a phrase corresponding to Pan-Islamism.``

``For the present every Muslim nation must sink into her own deeper self, temporarily focus her vision on herself, alone, until all are strong and powerful to form a living family of republics. A true and living unity, according to the nationalistic thinkers, is not so easy as to be achieved by a merely symbolic overlordship. It is truly manifested in a multiplicity of free independent units where racial rivalries are adjusted and harmonised by the unifying bond of a common spiritual aspiration.``

karayN gay ahl-i-nazar taza bustiaN abad

mairy nigah nahin soo-ay Kufa o Baghdad

(Through men of vision shall a new land be raised.

Need I then look towards Kufa and Baghdad? Nay!).

harf-i-bad ra ber lub awardan khatast

kafir o momin khalq-i-khuda ast

admiyat ahtaram adami

ba-khabar shu az maqam adami

(It is evil to speak ill of others,

For Momins and Kaffirs all are the creature of God;

To be human is to have respect for all mankind:

So, be thou aware of the station of Man!)

rajanjua:

I hail from chennai - the base of Hindu group of newspapers. From my grandfather`s generation we have been subscribing to Hindu. (Infact our mornings do not start without the hot news from Hindu and a hot cup of filter coffee!!)

I have had the opportunity to read other newspapers of India. In comparison to them I have always thought of Hindu as a more sober, moderate and a conservative newspaper which is not easily given to sensationalism. On the negative side one may argue that Hindu lacks the investigative journalism of say the Indian Express. Idealogically Hindu leans to the left and rejects the Hindutva philosophy of the RSS brand (despite its name). Politically it opposses the centrist parties(Congress/BJP) giving more

importance to the regional ones(Primarily DMK). In fact, Frontline - the fortnightly magazine from the same house - is particularly hostile towards the BJP/RSS. Many a time editorials/opinions/letters do not toe the Indian line. Sometimes, you might also find articles arguing against the official Indian line in Kashmir. With this background, I am a bit surprised about your assertion. Can you please explain why of all newspapers in India you feel Hindu is sub-standard? Have you read Hindu lately?

Re: #99 concerned

I have seen a lot of references to ``rediff`` on Chowk. I`ll check it out. Thanks for the list.

rajanjua:

there is no denying that there are sub-standard newspapers in india. but those are mostly at the local level, not at the national level. the thing that surprized me was your declaration that -

`dawn is a whole lot better than any of the Indian newspaper/magazine that I have read.`

which led me to conclude that your exposure to indian journalism was limited.

`blitz`, i believe, was more like a tabloid in the `70s and `80s. i don`t even know if it is published any more. i don`t read `hindu` that much to comment about. `india today`, in my opinion, is very respectable. in war times, journalism in all countires is generally patriotic in nature. i don`t see how `dawn` was superior to `india today` during kargil. it was only after the washington declaration that people like ayaz amir and others started criticizing pakistani policy. even then, the criticism was limited to `why do it if it couldn`t succeed` type of argument rather than `military intervention, overt or covert, is not the right policy in kashmir` type of argument.

may be you should try reading the main national dailies like `the times of india`, `hindustan times`, `indian express` and `asian age` amongst others. in magazines you could try `the outlook`, `the week` and `rediff`.

tvarad(#95): This is very fascinating topic and I hope somebody should write an article on Chowk about it. It is a very complicated issue and the opinions will be very diverse.

The pan-islamism in this century was forwarded by very bright and intellegent people like Iqbal, Ahrars, Jalal-Uddin Afghani and Amin-Ul Husseini among others. They saw most of the Muslim world under colonial rule except for the dying Ottoman empire and recognised that pan-islamism is the only force to gain independence from colonial masters. It had more to do with taking control of their destiny than to impose an islamic form of government on the masses. However, after WW II, when more and more nations started gaining independence, pan-islamism lost its appeal. It was revived mainly by Saudi Arabia with the help of three sort of client parties namely Jamaat-e-Islami in sub-continent, Ikhwan-Ul-Muslimoon in arab countries and Nahdat-Ul-Ulema in Indonesia. The reason has to do with the internal dynamics of Saudi Arabia where Saud family came to power with the support of orthodox pan-islamist wahabis. Some people are of the opinion that somewhere along the way US saw it a positive force to deal with the spread of communism and tacitly supported it. Later on more radicalized off-shoots started to appear which were less interested in Saudi style Islam or stopping the communism, and more interested in the impementation of ``Islamic system``.

The poor and illiterate masses of village Muslims are more worried about their day-to-day life than thinking about such issues. They consider themselves Punjabi, Sindhis, Pathans etc., and then content with being Pakistani. Historically these masses played no role in the excesses of foreign rule on indian sub-continent as well as independence movement.

The situation is different in the cities. There are sizable number of people who trace their roots in the middle east or central asia. The names like Syed, Qureshi, Farooqi, Usmani, Alawi, Baig, Mirza and many others claim middle eastern roots. Similarly in Punjab, large castes like arain and awans have invented middle eastern ancestory also. In Sindh, Syeds and Shahs have invented these ancestories either due to their conversion by Syeds, Shias or Ismailies or a marriage with a middle easterner in the distant past. In Multan which was historically the centre of malawas now mostly claim persian and middle eastern roots due to the much longer middle easterner rule than rest of Punjab. Despite all this, the largest castes in Punjab are Jats, Rajputs, Gujjars and Arains in the same order and have native roots( pre-aryan, aryan, scythians and huns all mixed). The Balochis are kin to kurdish people but have long been seperated and have independent identity. Barohis are pre-aryan dravidians are the smallest group. It is actually Mohajirs who have the highest percent of middle eastern last names and thus could claim middle eastern roots. It is either this or some bad experiences of their past in UP and CP, which makes them very ardent Pakistanis. Yet because of higher education level and living in the cosmopolitan centers have made them much less ardent pan-islamic in recent years.

If there is any sort of referendum at present, the pan-islamic will easily win over indic identity. This is because no major political organization wants to take the risk of being branded pro-India by siding with the idea of native or indic people. I believe there are significant number of educated Pakistanis who have started taking notice of their non-islamic roots and respecting it. At the same time there are plenty of Muslims in India who will listen to Maulana Masood Azhar speeches on tapes as well as listen to the running commentary of Pakistani cricket team and feel good when they win. It is almost impossible by a Pakistani saying, ``Sachin bhai ne chhaka mara`` whereas some Indian Muslims do say,``Wasim Akram bhai ne chhaka mara``.

Re: #93 concerned

India Today

Blitz

Hindu

Around 15 years back, I had access to almost every single major Indian newspaper, thru a relative of mine who used to work for ISI- I was not impressed by the quality of Bharati journalism. Nowadays I pick up India Today once in a while. I thought the coverage of Kargil by India Today was pretty pathetic.

How do Muslims of the sub-continent view their Islamic heritage? Is it culturally unique to the sub-continent without diminishing the Muslim identity or is it viewed homogenously with other Islamic societies of the world with no recognition to the sub-continental component? Any other angle?

Regards

Re: jay #90

(``After reading the pak papers for nearly two years now, i have an idea about the `collective` pakistan...``)

Firstly, i`m wondering if you were in India when the kargil conflict was on, and if you managed to read Dawn online. oh wait, actually, Dawn - the leading english newspaper in Pakistan - was blocked in democratic india at that time, wasn`t it?

``I have known several pakistanis, i could never have guessed the nonsense they are fed on.``

I`m wondering: do you ONLY read Pakistani papers? Or have you ever read an Indian newspaper?

(``caused by living in a system where one could be killed with out knowing the reason``)

Now, help me out here. Are you reffering to the Christian missionary and his children who were burned alive in a car in India?

(``pakistan, the one that drives the kargill, the hijack, the jihad...``)

You forgot to mention that we are also responsible for Indian taxi strikes, ghee shortages, blocked drains and Vajpayee`s toothaches.

rajanjua:

which indian newspapers/magazines do you consider inferior to dawn? and what makes those so inferior?

Re: #91 syjam

I have the same opinion about Indian newspapers. They are most of the time downright absurd. I agree with you on the standard of Urdu Pakistani newspapers. Have you ever read Dawn (www.dawn.com)-Its semi-decent and a whole lot better than any of the Indian newspaper/magazine that I have read.

Regards,

Amir Janjua

mac#88 and Jay#90

I agree with you about the Pakistani Newspapers.

The English ones are still OK. They may present their version of truth (which many a times is border-line stupid;) but the Urdu ones...

Oh my goodness... you see utterances of Rabid hate mongers printed as journalistic work...

very different from Chowk indeed.... ( Can you read Urdu?)

Knowledge of pakistan

macgupta,

I have to agree with you there, reading pak papers makes one really anti-pakistani. I have known several pakistanis, i could never have guessed the nonsense they are fed on. After reading the pak papers for nearly two years now, i have an idea about the `collective` pakistan, the one that drives the kargill, the hijack, the jihad. Each individual is an exception to the collective. But still as one notices on the chowk, under pressure the individual hides under the collective, the defense of RAW theory of hijacking is a good example on the chowk.

What is all the more disheartening is the refusal of the individual pakistanis to accept the existence of the collective, to criticise it and to alter it.

There is no tradition of internal critique in pakistan as one can see in the pak papers and also on chowk all linked to `fatwafobia`, fear caused by living in a system where one could be killed with out knowing the reason or having a trial as it happens in a fatwa. Now leave the ``book`` alone, that is what happened to salman rushdie, dont explain it away as mullaic.

The more I learn, the more hardline I get.

Recently, an article in the Pakistani ``The Nation`` took cheap shots at the Indian musical tradition, as well as at Hinduism. Supposedly, the work of the 13th century Sarangadeva ( Sangeetha Ratnakara), shows that the music of India has no connection to its pre-Islamic past, and was basically imported from the Middle East. In the process of making this claim, the author of this essay also equates Hinduism to a collection of myths.

Well, the author of that piece is misquoting Sarangadeva. It speaks well for Pakistani scholarship. Also, I found out that Sarangadeva was a refugee from Muslim persecution in Kashmir and lived in the Deccan.

Interesting, is it not ? It seems to me that to some section of Pakistani Muslims, India`s pre-Islamic days are the equivalent of the Arabs` Jahiliya, and everything from that period must be destroyed. The landscape of North India is another testimony to that fact. Bygones could left to be bygones, but the urge to destroy or debase that heritage is still very much evident.

Even on this very forum, someone has written the equivalent of what Naipaul wrote about : On the Harappa ruins, supposedly there is a sign saying that (these ruins) is what happens to Kafirs.

In one sense Ayaz Amir is correct, this is a continuation of an age-old struggle; I see no reason for India to yield an inch.

-arun gupta

Satyavedi #83, one more thing where you write ``You cannot claim he was a Pakistani- You guys lost that right ...`` Actually, most Pakistanis who think about such things take as much pride in the non-muslim past of the Indus Valley region as with the muslim past of India and Middle East, and it is not for you or anyone else to tell us of our rights here. For example: the Moenjodaro civilization that spanned Sindh and Panjab, the Gandhara architecture in the north, the Buddhist monastery and the city at Taxila, are all as much a source of pride to Pakistanis as is the Badshadi Mosque and Lahore Fort. This is all for the better, since, once hopefully the India-Pakistan frictions calm down a bit, our grandchildren on both sides of the border will be glad that we preserved the past. I think that anything of the past (in India or Egypt or anywhere) is the common heritage for all humanity, not just a particular group of people. This is the same as saying the future that we in our turn leave behind for those not yet born (regardless of which part of the world they happen to be born in) is our joint responsibility. I think if more people accepted this responsibility, a lot of our immediate problems would fall in perspective and be easily solved.

Addendum to post #81

http://cnn.com/ASIANOW/time/magazine/99/1206/pakistan.musharraf.html

Interview with Gen. Pervez Musharraf with TIME

Excerpt:

``TIME: What if Clinton bypasses Pakistan on his planned South Asia visit next year because you haven`t restored democracy?

Musharraf: I feel that by coming here, the president of the United States will have a positive impact. His visit will affect the whole region. Sidelining Pakistan would be counterproductive. There would be a gap in his understanding. The people of Pakistan would be terribly disappointed, and his absence will give leverage to the extremists here. This would generate more support for the extremists, so it would really be counterproductive. I would really be disappointed.``

(End excerpt)

Sadhana

Dear Ali1(#80): I actually agree with most of the point you made except that I was looking 10, 20 or 50 years down the road. The Lashkars are manageable now, to some extent, but you never know if they pick up momentum due to economic termoil and lot more people might think as a viable alternative, or due to some strong anti-american feeling in the future. One should never take their opponents lightly like the Mogul king Mohd. Shah Rangeela who said,”hanooz Dilli door ast” while the forces of Nadir Shah were on the move.

You are right about the natural resistance from MQM, Jaye Sindh, Ahle-Sunnat, pirs, feudals and liberals in Sindh, Balochistan and Punjab but I was really pointing out NWFP when I talked about the possibility of disintegration and I did not mean that Lashkars winning the election. The nationalist and leftist Pathans have started to side with the Taliban who already wield great influence on the rural Pashtun population and a new brand of Pashtun nationalism is in the making. The nationalists will provide the bulk of the intellegentia necessary to run Afghanistan with overlordship of Taliban Mullahs. Imagine yourself a Pathan, and see what you have gained from Pakistan’s support for Hekmatyar and then pulling the plug in favor of Taliban; only deaths, destruction, misery, hunger and famine. It is unthinkable that Pakistan will ever allow this much destruction of Punjabis or UP Muslims in India. A Pathan may think, Pakistan being controlled by Punjabi-Mohajir elites with no concerns for Pathans, similar to Bengalis before.

It is right that SSP leadership was killed by Shias but kiling of Shia govt. officials, poets and intellectuals is different. Sorry to say, but for me murder of a doctor is more painful than a hateful war-mongering angry mullah. The Shias are no match for Lashkars, only Ahle-Sunnat and Pirs can match their strength.

Regards,

Sameer

To rajanjua #

``It is a pretty funny story, but I think the one with ISI are more interesting, especially when the author is L.K. Advani. ``

I guess the Advani ones donot have as much masala as this one - they are pretty matter of fact type.. Not at all intersting compared to this one...:)

``I wonder if Naqvi Sahib knows that Chanakya is a Pakistani. Probably not. I forget, he`s pre-712AD. It does`nt matter

that he makes Machiavelli look like a little kid-Anyone with a pagan-sounding name is unacceptable.``

Sorry Rajanjua... You cannot calim he was a Pakistani- You guys lost that right when those academecians wrote your history books...

But, Amir Khusro, Akbar, ShahJehan , Aurangzeb and Jinnah are still Indians......Only recently in Rediff, one historian included Jinnah among the greatest Indians of the century...We care for our heritage..

Satyavadi

To Ali # 77

You say

``I hope you will also find the time and courage to pity the standard of journalism in your native India and the psyche of

Hindu Indians.``

Well I have the courage and the time, but the problem is the standard is nowhere as bad as that in Pakistan, though the papers toe the givt line on foreign relations and specially Pakistan...

Pathetic standards , like in Pakistan, are to be pitied.. But comparitively lower standards (compared to Western newspapers -though they also follow their govt`s lead when it comes to villains and Pakistan is one for India) like in India, are to be upgraded by encouragement and exhortation, which I should do, but dont have the clout to..

I am amused that you have singled out Hindu Indians for your criticism - the tnt applies here too..Good for you, but it only betrays your prejudiced mind..

On a side note: Most Pakistanis make it a point to show that they empathize with the pains of all non -Hindu, even non-Uppercaste Indians, for very obvious reasons..``Aur to Aur`` even Sikhs are their friends afterthey fell apart with the Indian Central gove for a while.. How about some reminder about the burning of one of the Gurus (Teghbahadur ?)by your icon Aurangzeb, how about the partition riots in Punjab (worst in all of India), and many other things..

One last thing on this, you are not alone in this.. Everyone would rememebr that stubborn lawyer OMAR MIRZA, who after once openly proclaiming that he would kill any Sikh if he got an opportunity, to avenge for the partition time deaths of his family members, actually pretended to be the biggest admirer of the ``valiant Sikhs`` just because an young British Sikh expressed some reservations abut the Indian system on this forum, and patronisingly tried to instigate him to harm India in whichever way he could...

You betray a similar mentality, dude!!..

`` Remember when *ALL * Indian newspapers reported that Ganesh bhagwan`s idols are drinking milk and *NONE *

of the reporters, op-ed writers and letters to the editors questioned the validity or pointed to the absurdity of this claim. ````````

I was in India at that time and believe me, I myself ``pilaofied`` milk to Ganesh idols in the Mandir, and they did seem to drink :)

That same day Doordarshan had a 5-7 clip explaining how surface tension (and other phenomena) caused the illusion and also showed the drain of a Mandir in Delhi from where all the milk was flowing out.. The newspapers also did similar things.. I know because I was there!!!



``Similar is the case when your Capt. Gupta, while climbing up, killed 50 well-entrenched infiltrators before dying and after

taking bullets in his chest. All your pitiful newspapers reported this, and your entire pitiful Hindu population believed it!! ````````

I dont know about this one, but do you have a source to verify whether this was correct or not...

Again, I am abit more amused this time , again ``hindu population``.. Our entire Indian population believed it, believe me...Dont try the Hindu Muslim thing here, it only uncovers your hatred filled mind...We would never go to the level of saying ``Muslim Terrorsists`` for ``Pakistani Terrrorists``, because we care for the 13% of our population.. I guess there are some Hindu people in Pak too, but they are just 1% and any way who cares about those pagans, never mind if they happen to be Pakistanis!!!

Satyavadi

alil #80

``2) Pakistan Army acted swiftly and mercilessly against the over-ambitious Lashkaris in its midst, recall Gen Abbasi, Brig Billah et. al. Although a substantial number of potential Lashkaris were inducted in the army in Zia`s time, that trend has been reversed and those inside will retire in due course without getting much higher in the ranks. Most of them will retire at Maj./Lt. Col level I think.``

Its interesting that many analysts, Western and Pakistani, hold up the threat of the Pakistani polity sliding into religious fundamentalism as a reason for supporting the present miltary regime and against isolating Pakistan for its support of terrorists. I have seen a number of opinion pieces written by retired army personnel in Pakistani newspapers pushing this argument. Is all that `milli bhagat` or coordinated double speak? `Wanting it all ways`, I think. I don`t recall any such argument ever being made about fundamentalism in India.

The following articles may throw some light.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2000/jan/15pak.htm ``Vanguard of the jihad``, Yahya Durrani in Karachi

A small hopeful sign is an article in The Nation, January 18, 2000 ``Why fight everyone?`` by Dr Ijaz Ahsan

Excerpt:

``The Harkat-ul-Mujahideen have said that Kashmir is just their base camp and that soon they are going into Himachal Pradesh to start liberating India and hoist the Islamic flag on Delhi`s Red Fort. One fails to see what they hope to gain by such statements. If they want to serve the cause of Islam, why don`t they try to make Pakistanis better Muslims first?``

Sadhana

RE: Pardesi # 75 Sameer # 78

I didn`t ask for a comparision between Taliban and the BJP. I really don`t care if BJP is less facist (overtly, right now) as compared with Taliban. Fanaticsm and facism should not be acceptable regardless of degree. It is heartening to note though that you consider BJP a menace and something that all right thinking Indians should worry about.

Sameer # 76

You have way overestimated the Lashkars. I think Pakistan will never have a ``Taliban``/``Deobandi-Wahabi``/``Lashkari`` govt. I am sure you`ll agree that these folks can never win an election if and when that occurs, so they have to use the backdoor to capture power. Here are a few roadblocks to their backdoor entry.

(1) State/Establishment which has dealt firmly with earlier jehadis who strayed too far from its agenda. Remember Hekmatyar, Mujaddadi, Sayaf, Rabbani, Hezbul Mujahideen, JKLF etc etc?

(2) Pakistan Army acted swiftly and mercilessly against the over-ambitious Lashkaris in its midst, recall Gen Abbasi, Brig Billah et. al. Although a substantial number of potential Lashkaris were inducted in the army in Zia`s time, that trend has been reversed and those inside will retire in due course without getting much higher in the ranks. Most of them will retire at Maj./Lt. Col level I think.

(3) vast majority of Pakistanis, especially in Punjab, Sindh and Karachi are Ahl-e-Sunnat (followers of Sufi Islam, if you like) and there is no way that they will accept a government with wahibi orientation. And they are not as pacifist as the Sufi followers of the previous centuries; recall what ATI did to these ``Lashkaris`` after winning college union elections in Punjab in 1989.

(4) Contrary to your assertion, Shias are perfectly capable of defending themselves. Yes a number of prominant shias have been killed, but they are still very well entrenched in civil/military hierarchy. BTW, Shias have also killed every single SSP (Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan) president starting from its founders.

(5) Ethnic groups, specially MQM and to some extent Jeay Sindh can resist lashkari presence in the terms that these guys understand.

Finally, Pakistanis generally do not care much about the narrow sectarian political agenda of the Lashkaris. Jinnah, Iskandar Mirza, Yahya Khan, Bhutto and Benazir were all Shias and all of them were judged by their deeds rather than faith.

Ali

PEACE IN THE NEW YEAR,

Amit,

It is very heartening to see that you have achieved some semblence of understanding with a few pakistanis on the chowk, which in itself is remarkable. To continue on this noble path, at some stage you may come across these minor rough patches. The soldiers of Kargill were the highly trained and religiously motivated jihadic forces, of whom even the then pak prime minister described autonomous and all that he could do is request co-operation. Govt of pakistan has an increasingly minor role.

Kashmere is a jihadic frontier, soldiers from a dozen countries, thousands of them have reached heaven in Kashmere. Even the hijackers wanted a pakistani and a british. Amit, you may have to work with all of the islamic states.

There has never been any criticism of the jihadic forces by any pak govt officials, jihad is the central element of islam. One should realise that in the National security Council of the Parvez Muzz did not contain a religious scholar initially, a few rockets at the US embassy ensured it overnight. Hence the methods including hijacking could be `ligitimate`. Watch out.

One should realise that Lashkar e- toiba and other jihadic organisation have relieved the govt of significant budgetary obligations. War in Kashmir is sponsored by the people of pakistan, in the highest traditions of democracy. They even took on and `won` against the indians. The need of the hour is to further develop this tradition. `` Democracy starts from the barrel of an AK47 aimed at a kafir``, that is Mohamed Asghar.

After the `basic democracy` of Ayub, `non party democracy` of zia and the `sham democracy` as described by PM of NS govt, stay tuned for non provocatively named `pak democracy` no let me call it ji... democracy.

Ali1 (#70): I am sure your buddy will respond to your post. From top of my head, here are some differences between Saffronization and Talibanization.

Talibanization means exporting their brand to the rest of the Islamic world; Saffronization means imposing their brand on India.

Talibanization threatens Pakistan`s integrity and Pakistani way of life. Saffronization threatens Pakistani (Azad) Kashmir.

Talibanization, terrible for women; Saffronization, no stand on women`s issues.

Talibanization threaten to destroy Bamyans historical Buddha statues; Saffronization, destroyed the Babri mosque.

Taliban, killed more Muslims; Saffron, killed Muslims during riots following Babri...

Tailban leadership, illiterate and fiercely religious (their brand); Saffron leadership, educated and fiercely nationalistic.

Taliban source of income--drugs; Saffron-- donations?

One is more nasty than other!!!

RE satyavadi # 73

I hope you will also find the time and courage to pity the standard of journalism in your native India and the psyche of Hindu Indians.

Remember when *ALL * Indian newspapers reported that Ganesh bhagwan`s idols are drinking milk and *NONE * of the reporters, op-ed writers and letters to the editors questioned the validity or pointed to the absurdity of this claim. Similar is the case when your Capt. Gupta, while climbing up, killed 50 well-entrenched infiltrators before dying and after taking bullets in his chest. All your pitiful newspapers reported this, and your entire pitiful Hindu population believed it!!

Ali

Dear Pardesi (#68): I agree with your very sensible point of view with regards to Pakistan and Lashkars. There is no doubt that Lashkars are much more harmful to Pakistani society than anything else. I am actually much more worried about their long-term impacts. Like every other umbrella terrorist organizations by the world`s intellegence organization, they became out of hand and uncontrolable, e.g., Tamil Tigers and Bhindranwale`s Punjabi Movement.

It all started with the Pakistani involvement in Afghanistan, at the behest of USA, after Russian invasion. They were emotiional times among Pakistanis and I was thoroughly criticized by my friends for suggesting a neutral stand. I was right in thinking about the long-term effects of such involvement, likes the growth of fundamentalism, guns and drug culture leading to the creation of Talibans and then Lashkars. The Lashkars involvement in Kashmir is only part of their plan. They are getting out of the hands of ISI and have killed practically every assist. commissioner, SP, SSP and many other doctors, writers and lawyer of Shia faith in Punjab. The police is absolutely helpless against them. Their ultimate plan is to take over all, or part of Pakistan, by hook or by crook and impose their brand of Talibanization. Here lies my biggest worry. What if, besides Shias, they start going after intellectuals, liberals or anybody who disagrees with them, like their brethern in Algeria. I am not sure how deep they have penetrated in the armed forces. One must think about the future instead of present or past only.

And I am not alone in thinking this way. I am appending excerpts from a US government report which appeared in yesterday,s e.News, Pakistan. This report though looks outrageous but one must not take it lightly. If there is even slightest chance of such happening, I will fully support total reevaluation of Pakistan`s foreign policy, vis-a-vis Afghanistan/ Talibans and defend Pakistan`s integrity even if it means bloodbath.

Here are the excerts:

[Afghan war may split Pakistan: US report

Says South Asia to face turmoil in next 25 years

By Amir Mateen

WASHINGTON: An official US report has predicted break-up of Pakistan as a fall-out of the continuous stalemate in Afghanistan.

The US Commission on National Security in the 21st Century, chartered by the defence secretary and endorsed by the White House, predicts Pakistan, India and possibly China getting engaged over Afghanistan.

The report formulates various scenarios that could affect the US national security in the next 25 years. The Commission is co-chaired by former senators Warren Rudman and Gary Hart and comprising 28 commissioners including prominent former figures in government, legislature and non-governmental organisations.

The Commission said India and Afghanistan could find themselves at war over Taliban policies towards Afghanistan`s Hazara population, drugs and weapons running, interpretations of Islam and sheer geo-strategic rivalry. Such a war might also involve Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, each thinking to absorb the ethnic Tajik and Uzbek populations of Afghanistan, north of the Hindukush, where the writ of the mainly Pushtun Taliban does not run deep.

The report paints what looks like a comic scenario where Pakistan is dragged in the war, which in turn seriously affects its current territorial configuration. The Commission reports that the possible collapse of a nuclear Pakistan would quickly become an urgent international security issue. It goes on to say that such events might then open the way for an Indo-Iranian competition over Punjab, Sindh and Balochistan, adding that both the countries could have nuclear capabilities by the time such a contest may develop.

The scenario where Iran and India are fighting over Pakistani territory with the nuclear Pakistan wiped out looks ridiculous even to a lay student of international relations. It also predicts ``a major war`` between India and Pakistan ``as a result of miscalculation when fighting erupts in Kashmir as it did in June 1999``. Another Sino-Indian border war is also possible, it says.

The only good thing about the report is that it admits that most of these conflicts are unlikely to break out over the next 25 years. However, it predicts that the internal stability of Pakistan could seriously be undermined in the face of political paralysis and economic distress, with Pashtun, Baloch, and even Mohajir groups seeking their own states. It says that mutual agreement between India and Pakistan to abolish their nuclear weapons is not likely, unless somehow China and others agree to do the same which is even less likely.]

Now you tell me, should we keep implementing fundamentalist/ Taliban agenda because we created them and now chickens are coming home......

Regards,

Sameer

ali1 #70

Ali sahib,

My note was in response to Sameer sahib’s note in which he suggested that Indians should support secular and democratic Pakistan and all I was trying to point out was that yes indeed, secular Pakistan will be in the long term interest of India.

You are absolutely right that saffornization of India will be a step backward for India and all thinking Indians should oppose it if that leads India towards fanaticism of just another kind. Having said that let’s try to differentiate between Talbinazation and having BJP as the major party in the coalition since, I guess, that’s what you mean by saffornization.

Talbinization in my mind is what’s happening in Afghanistan. This means Burqa, almost no rights for women, interest free economy (if there is one), very limited science education and virtual isolation from the world. I think Pakistani people are much smarter than that and even under worst scenario of ``Talibanization``, they probably would settle for some thing like Iranian system which is much less severe than Afghanistan but the state output will definitely not reflect what our Punjabis are capable of achieving if left alone.

Saffornization, as you called it, is not a positive step for India. My hope is that this will not cause any major setbacks to Indian secular (work in progress though) system due to quite a few ``checks and balances`` in place:

- People are used to democracy/elections and if BJP can not produce, it will be out. BJP would not be able to produce if they keep spending energies on Babri Masjids and fighting in Kashmir.

- There is a healthy 20 % or so minority population of Muslims, Sikhs, Parsis and Christians. These people are all over the place (at highes