Twosome Troubles of Troublesome Two

I thought the following may be of interest to you and your readers:

Lawyer for Ousted Pakistan PM

Gunned Down

March 10, 2000 10:29 AM EST

KARACHI (Reuters) - Unidentified gunmen shot dead a lawyer defending Pakistan`s ousted prime minister Nawaz Sharif against a possible death sentence in a daylight

attack on his city center offices Friday.

Police and witnesses said Iqbal Raad, a leading member of Sharif`s defense team, died from a volley of bullets to his chest. An office assistant and the visiting son of a High

Court judge who were in the premises were also killed.

Pakistani military ruler General Pervez Musharraf called the killing ``a dastardly act of terrorism.``

The murder happened just weeks before President Clinton visits Pakistan.

A spokesmen for Sharif`s Pakistan Muslim League (PML), which was ousted in a bloodless Oct. 12 coup by Musharraf, said Raad had received a number of threats but declined to elaborate.

``For the past some days he was complaining that he was receiving threats,`` Raja Zafarul Haq told Reuters in Islamabad.

He declined to comment on a possible motive for the slaying, but said it would hamper Sharif`s defense, which resumes Monday.

The head of the legal team defending Sharif, Khwaja Sultan, said that the defense was ``terrified at the killing and would like to know the motives behind it.``

I was looking for appropriate location(s) to post the following. My intention was to post it on as many boards as I could.

I spent considerable time looking for the appropriate ones. After wasting half an hour or so I saw this board and decided to post it here too. We aren`t that different from each other, or are we? If you see it elsewhere, it is because I want it to have as much exposure on the Chowk as is relevantly possible:

U.N. Protests ... on

International Women`s Day

March 8, 2000 1:09 PM EST

UNITED NATIONS (Reuters)

UNICEF, the U.N. Children`s Fund, condemned ``honor killings,`` an ancient practice in which men kill female relatives for forced or suspected sexual activity outside marriage, even if they had been raped.

In 1997, some 300 women were killed in the name of ``honor`` in Pakistan alone. In Yemen, as many as 400 such crimes took place in 1997, while in India an estimated 5,000 women are killed annually because their in-laws consider their dowries inadequate.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnmmmmmmmmm

Women`s Day Marked With

Protest ...

March 8, 2000 2:42 PM EST

LONDON (Reuters) - Women marked International Women`s Day Wednesday with protests at continued violence and discrimination, while men praised them and gave them perfume and flowers.

Acting U.N. Coordinator for Afghanistan Sayed Ahmed Farah, told a news

conference in neighboring Pakistan: ``In terms of attitude, in terms of approach, I am not saying there has been a 100 percent turnaround.

``But yes, (we have moved) from a very tough and difficult period to a much more flexible period,`` he said.

He said the Taliban had slowly allowed the reopening of some of the girls`

schools it closed after capturing the capital, Kabul in 1996 and allowed restricted health facilities to women.

gymnosophist:

Well said, mainly. Laikin kiyouN waqt zaayah kar rahay ho? Don`t know if you know Hindi/Urdu.
Am working on English version of the poem I posted earlier.

rgds
t

(Udayakumar: hope you will understand.)

Dama dam Must Qalandar = Ali1-- re#10:

---------DAWAT-------
Aao kay shub ko seh`r kar daiN
Aao kay is shub ko seh`r kar daiN
Aao kay is tareek shub ko seh`r kar daiN
-----Zoolmut kay andhairoN ko
-----Such ka chiraqgh dikhaa daiN
-----Yassiyat ko itminaan
-----Jeh`l ko such ka noor daiN
-----Kaali ghata-ouN say
-----Sehraa ki piyaas bhujha-aiN
-----Jung aur barbadi kay raygistaan ko
-----A`mun aaur khoosh-hali kay nakhlistan daiN
Aao hath baRRhao
kay shubb guzri jaati hay
Aao qad`m oothao
kay poo` phatna chahti hay
Jo hum na qad`m ootha-aiN gay
Is doori kona mitaiN-gay
Tou sub hamaiN choRRh jaiN-gay
Tou sub hamaiN bohat peechay choRRh jaiN-gay.

Aao kay shub ko seh`r ........

30---------


P.S. No, I`m not going to Banglore, but if you know someone who is attending, please send this over.
P.P.S. Can someone attempt a translation in English?

Udayakumar:

Why South Asian Poor People`s Movement?

Why not `concerned` people or simply `people`?

And why not join the Pakistan India Peoples` Forum for Peace and Democracy? In fact why don`t we have a Chowk chapter for this forum? I believe their annual gathering this year is in Banglore.

(Digression: We can charter a flight out of Chicago or New York and discuss the intricacies of halaal/non halaal food and different kinds of veg. dishes all the way to Banglore over the most popular South Asian drink, Scotch n soda or vodka and rooh afza?)

rgds

t

P.S. Yaar gymnosophist, kuch tou khuda yaa bhagwaan ka khouf karo. Itna bhi ba naa oos kou sharminda karo.
P.P.S. I`d have taken your dare: but am happily into this great relationship for the past seventeen days, you see.

Where there are Indians and Pakistanis, there is hope:

From DAWN today:

Cyber-love lands Pakistani in Indian jail!


NEW DELHI, Jan 8: A Pakistani stockbroker who landed in India to marry a woman he has been dating on the internet was arrested in the western city of Bombay for violating visa rules, reports said on Saturday.
Abab Ahmedi, 25, a Lahore stockbroker, has been in police custody since Dec 18 for among other
reasons providing a wrong address of stay, the Indian Express reported.
Police said Ahmedi, a Muslim, met his Hindu management student wife in a chat room on the internet and they communicated regularly through e-mail in the last one year. Ahmedi flew down to Bombay on Dec 2, 1999 and the two lovers went to New Delhi to escape the wrath of the girl`s family and got married there. They returned to Bombay on Dec 17.
The next day someone tipped off the police that Ahmedi was not staying in a hotel as mentioned in his visa form but with a family in the city. The police arrested the cyberlover.
He has been remanded to judicial custody for violating India`s Foreigners Act until Jan 11. Police confirmed Ahmedi had no criminal links. Meanwhile his wife, whom the authorities refused to name, said in her plea for his release that they would go to Pakistan once he was let off.-dpa

Sadhana:

Very interesting list. You have captured the contradictions in Pakistani positions very appropriately. It could be considered humerous, were it not responsible for so much violence in South Asia.

syjam:

I am proud of you as an Indian. I don`t care if you are an Ahmadia, you are a true muslim who understands the spirit of his faith. I am happy that young muslims like yourself are rapidly becoming a part of the national maintstream and moving into the middle class. India needs people like yourself. I believe most hindus in India genuinely want to build a close relationship with the muslim community that will be mutually beneficial and lead to prosperity for everyone.

It is sad to see that the Kashmiris are currently unhappy with India. Perhaps Indian muslims can step forward and build a bridge between Kashmiris and other Indians. The country will be indebted to the muslim community if that happens.

Pardesi,

You asked for differences between Sunnis and Ahmedis: Ahmedis believe in a prophet (Ahmed Mirza) who lived in 19th century India, while Sunnis believe Mohammed was the final prophet.

Syjam,

As a Sunni muslim from Pakistan, and speaking for myself (and I am sure there are millions more like me who do not have the time or inclination to be as vocal as the fundementalists) I also think that if someone choses to interpret the Quran differently than myself, that is his/her business, not mine and it is not for me to define what religion that person claims to belong to. I am glad you are doing well in India, and wish you further prosperity. We Pakistanis too will rise above all this mess one day.

Re:SamirJB#97

The tendency of desis to invent external ancestry is not limited to muslims alone. Upper caste hindus proudly talk of their central asian aryan ancestry. Kashmiri Pundits claim that their ancestors came from the Caucasus mountains. Rajputs and Jats claim ancestry from Scythians in Central Asia. Some of this may be valid but I suspect that there has been so much intermixing in the subcontinent that the result is a complete mixture of races and ethnicities. This is particularly true among Punjabis. You can see people like Shashi Kapoor with almost Grecian features, while others like Inder Gujral have a more desi look. In the Pakistani cricket team, both Ejaz Ahmed and Wasim Akram are Punjabis but they have tremendous difference in skin complexion and facial features.

The issue of pan-islamism vs indic identity is actually moot. The rest of the Islamic world has excellent relations with India and consider it as a close friend. Besides Pakistan, no one feels the need for a civilization clash between Islam and Hinduism. Hence pan-islamism need not be contradictory to India. A muslim in South Asia can easily have a dual identity based on pan-islamism and Indian culture. From a historic perspective, hindu-muslim conflict occured only during the initial stages of contact between the two religions and during Aurangzeb`s time. Even Aurangzeb`s hatred of hindus is attributed to his suspicion that the Rajputs of Mewar contributed to the political misunderstanding between his father Shah Jehan and grandfather Jehangir, resulting in his separation from his parents. Otherwise, hindus and muslims never had any genocidal conflict like the crusades in the middle east. There have been many muslim administrations in the subcontinent from the Arabs in Sindh and Multan, Delhi Sultanate, Mughals, Nawabs of individual kingdoms etc. They all accomodated hindus and vice-versa. In fact, Mughal empire spread far and wide with the active support of Rajputs.

I suspect that the present day Indo-Pak clashes are more the manifestation of deep rooted instincts for fratricide among North Indian desis. This fratricide used to occur in pre-Islamic days as well, except that it was based on allegiance to kingdoms. In fact, Hindu kings used to regularly conquer and massacare people of neighboring hindu kingdoms. The epic Mahabharat shows how competing groups of cousins fight an all encompassing war for ruling north India, involving all the regional kingdoms. This phenomenon continues today under religious cover as is obvious in the Indo-Pak conflict.

arungupta #88 writes: ``On the Harappa ruins, supposedly there is a sign saying that (these ruins) is what happens to Kafirs.``

You are wrong. I have been to Harappa and there is no such sign.

Isnt there enough trouble between Indian and Pakistani governments for you to try to build up bad feelings between individuals of both countries on Chowk as well?

Satyavedi #83 writes ``But, Amir Khusro, Akbar, ShahJehan , Aurangzeb and Jinnah are still Indians......Only recently in Rediff, one historian included Jinnah among the greatest Indians of the century...We care for our heritage..``

I had the chance to stop by overnight in Delhi a couple of years back (my first and last visit to India) and was surprised to see how the Mughal traditions were still strong in this city: from the Mughal motifs in the hotel I stayed at and particularly to the main road named Aurangzeb Road. So while I dont agree with some of the things you said in your earlier post, I think you are right here.

Re:Tahmed321 #60

Well, the border between India and Pakistan seems to be fairly tight along Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat. There is a lot of fencing in Punjab. It seems to have worked well, otherwise the Lashkar types could simply walk into Punjab or Rajasthan and catch a bus to Srinagar. It seems that India has not paid enough attention to sealing the LOC. There are no discussions or debates on this critical issue. Anytime there is a terrorist attack in Kashmir, Advani and the army generals call for more coordination between security agencies, when the clear problem is the porous nature of LOC that permits militants to walk in without any restrictions. I think a combination of massive fencing in accessible areas with extensive landmine placement in inaccessible areas can seal most of the LOC.

As far as political solution of Kashmir is concerned, I have repeatedly called for a compromise political solution with soft borders in Kashmir. I have also mentioned that Pakistan should replace militancy with a political movement in Kashmir. Unfortunately Pakistan is totally wedded to the concept of militancy as the only policy in Kashmir, although it brings absolutely no returns to Pakistanis or Kashmiris. I suspect that if the LOC is sealed up, militancy in Kashmir will die out to due to a lack of material support from Pakistan. This will cause Kashmiris to develop a proper political movement to voice their concerns and solve their problems using parliamentary means. India would also have to withdraw its security forces since the threat of violence would be significantly diminished. Pakistan would be forced to develop a new policy on the Kashmir issue as well.

Amit#54

You wish to know why the Indian govt cannot put a fence around LOC. Suggest you (a) ask US Pentagon why it cannot stop illegal aliens slipping across it`s Southern border, or why it could not stop N. Vietnamese slipping down South; (b) ask French military why the Maginot Line proved useless in WWII; (c)closer home, check with Indian military why in 1965 the re-inforced concrete bunkers in Chhamb proved irrelevent to Pakistani army. I suggest you think of some other solution, something creative (i.e. something that India and Pakistan governments have failed to come up with in 50 years).

gymnospohist#57

So I learnt something new from you - 30% of IT people in India are female. I agree that this will bring about big changes, since societies where women are on equal footing with men tend to be more civilized in many ways. Another ``grass root`` movement that is changing the status of women is microcredit (about 7 million women in Bangladesh are part of that movement), since it gives them a sense of control over their lives. I think (this could be wishful thinking) that it is a question of time before the governments of India and and Pakistan will end this ``race to the bottom`` and start competing in a more positive ``race to the top`` - like in literacy rates, status of women and so on. In that case, even if one country wins, the other one wins anyway (since it is better to be neigbouring a country that enjoys peace and prosperity than one that is full of problems).

Re:narain#32

I agree with you that it is pointless to talk to Pakistan because Musharraf is firmly in the pocket of extreme hardliners like Hamid Gul, Javed Nasir types. Hence there is zero chance of a negotiated solution on any issue.

One thing that I wanted to know from folks who are experts on security is why is it so difficult for India to stop all militant infiltration into Kashmir? It seems like infiltration from Pakistan is a serious problem that should have been solved by now. Since Pakistan claims that the Kashmir problem is an indigenous uprising, sealing the LOC should be okay with them as well. For instance, in all accessible areas, there could be fencing within a couple of kilometers from the LOC. For inaccessible terrain, there could be landmines placed in a width of 1-2 kms all along those parts of LOC. The Kargil intruders had left behind landmines that slowed down Indian reoccupation. Why can`t the same be used in the rough terrain in LOC ?

Re:Alil#49, rajanjua#45

There is a major misperception in India that Pakistan is a highly religious, Islamic nation that disavows its pre-Islamic past. In fact the opposite seems to be true. In my interactions with Pakistanis I have noticed that they like to make a big show of religion but violate virtually every aspect of Islam. They are more interested if the next person is following the religion rather than if they themselves are living to its high standards. I also find them obsessed with caste and racial purity.

One of my Pakistani friends Irfan used to tell me about his undergraduate days in Lahore. It seems that in his college hostel, religious fundamentalists would come regularly to convert muslims to even more extreme muslims. Irfan and his friends got fed up with this and decided to teach the fundamentalists a lesson. Next time the preachers showed up, all the students greeted them in their underwear only !! The fundamentalists ran away shouting ``Tobah, Tobah``. Go figure !!

I have recently read a couple of books by Pakistani author Tehmina Durrani titled ``My Feudal Lord`` and ``Blasphemy``. If even a fraction of what she says is true, it is a shocking exposure of what goes on in Pakistan. In the first book, she talks about her ex-husband Ghulam Mustafa Khar who was the Chief Minister of Punjab. This man commits the most vilest of acts and follows up with prayers to compensate for them in a never ending cycle. In the second book, she talks about a Pir who basically runs a shrine and acts like a demi-god. As people worship him, he does extreme immoral acts while paying lip service to Islam.