Boundaries or Bridges?

Sadna re:102

Ah, `frustrated intellectuals` versus `frustrated Mughals`.. Poor civilized Indians, trying to deal with a bunch of fractious yahooligans! I`d almost sympathize, if the inherent self-righteousness in that didn`t stick in my craw as much as ours does..

Dear Farangi Kush,

re post#99

``A Pakistani God-fearing muslims best friend is a Bhagwaan-fearing hindu``

Let me raise a cup of tea & rejoice at that statement. Even though I borrowed your ``ba ba blacksheep`` quote, I did`nt mean to include you as a hindu hater. You seem to be a sincere person with deep convictions & I respect you for it.

I must honestly say that I either do not entirely grasp your concepts (perhaps because of my ba ba blacksheep background) & dont agree with some of the ones I do understand.

Webster`s dictionary has 2 definitions of secularism

1)a system of doctrines or practices that rejects any form of religious faith & worship.

By that definition, I am definitely not a secularist. I believe a strong religious faith is vital for human existence.

2)the belief that religious & ecclesiastical affairs should not enter into the functions of the state or public education.

I am a strong proponent of this definition. My religion is a personal relationship with God. My family, clergy or cultural microcosm can influence me. I should have the option of accepting or rejecting parts or all of what they say. However, the govt or school has no business poking its nose in this.

I am curious to know what you think of Jinnah? I am told that he was a secularist with a strong affinity for the Western culture.

````Just look at your pathetic and ugly grovelling to look `modern` by fast-tracking yourself into every western deviation & depravity as shown in Indian movies & proudly tolerated by your govt. & abandoning millenium old hindu teachings against drinking,fornicating,lustfullness,gambling & that aids-acquiring stuff which is akin to `gupt-roag`--the unmentionable disease brought to India by the farangies then & now.````

Drinking, fornicating , lustfulness, gambling etc etc are not Western influences. Are you trying to tell us that those vices were not present in the East, before the Europeans arrived?! Get real!! The 2 predominant Western religions, Judaism & Christianity also look down upon those vices.

````The other problem is that hindus are becoming cultural & religious androids in droves.They are ashamed to admit that they are hindus----lest they be mistaken for `back-wardness`,easily forgetting that they had their days of glory when they were unamalgamated hindus,shudh hindus.````

I guess we`d better agree to disagree on this point. I`m proud to be hindu & not ashamed to admit it. I dont see the need to convert to any other religion because I dont see them any better or worse than mine. Besides, I feel that the core philosophy of every religion is identical.

Every religion has past days of glory & I am proud of the Hindu history. At the same time, I`m ashamed of the caste system, sati, bride burning etc. I am ashamed of the RSS. I am also proud that I`m ashamed of those things. I am also proud that there will be no fatwa issued against me by an offended hindu priest for blaspheming the hindu religion. My religion allows me to accept what I like & reject what I dont.

I may be misunderstanding you when I say this. Your hatred of the Western culture sounds very xenophobic. I am happy that the world is getting smaller & there is a free flow of cultural influences between nations. That is what makes a society stronger. Places like NYC & other large American cities are vibrant with cultures from all over the world, interacting with each other.

I feel that the USA is the greatest civilasation in human history. Its strength comes from nourishing & moulding its society everyday from immigrants of every culture. Having said that, of course there a innumerable things wrong in the USA. However, America`s greatest strength is that there are the first ones to admit it, bring it out in the open & debate it. I thank God everyday that I could be part of this land.

If you want Pakistan to reject the West & become inward looking, thats fine. Personally, I think it would be a huge mistake. Do you really want to become another Afganistan? Many people have commented how great Iran is ,since the revolution. They had the luxury of petrodollars to keep the people happy. Pakistan doesnt. If recent elections are any indication of how the majority of Iranians are feeling, there is a great force that yearns to be less xenophobic--esp with the young. The Islamic revolution hasnt exactly been the salvation for most Iranians.

Many recent `useful` interactions:

http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/02/25/morrow2_25.a.tm index.html

Tonya Harding isn`t the only one who`s angry

Lance Morrow

Some relevant excerpts:

``The Internet has its version of road rage: impulsive anger expressed from inside a capsule of anonymity, an aggressive connection made from the safety of disconnection...``

...

``Of the Seven Deadly Sins, I would guess that anger is crowding the age`s more obvious greed and lust for cultural primacy. But why? The reasons for greed and lust are self-evident: They come with their rewards. Anger is a dramatic and astringent passion. But what`s the payoff?

Righteous anger may be ennobling, sometimes, but mostly rage merely disfigures the one who is angry. Anger delights in destruction; it arrives as a blind spasm, even as an orgasmic release, like sex firing off in an evil dimension.

A Unified Field Theory of Today`s Anger might bundle these explanations:

Change confuses people, and confusion makes people angry. We live in a maelstrom of disorienting change.

An atmosphere of gold rush - of 24-year-olds in Gap khakis making billions - creates invidious expectations and a simmering resentment of Why Not Me? The stock market flaps higher and higher, soaring magnificently, but something in us expects the sun to melt its wings and bring it down like Icarus. Free-floating anxiety causes anger.

Our gaudy overstimulations are too much for our primitive nervous systems. Hypersensations engendered out of thin air (profuse consumer options, spectacular charades of sex and violence) open floodgates of adrenaline that has no sociobiological object (such as responding to actual danger). Therefore, mere untargeted anger.

Or you could argue that we are selfish, and spoiled rotten. We think too much about ourselves, rarely about others, as we ought. Self-obsession has a way of making people angry.

But anger resists unified field theories. It is a mystery....``

(End Excerpts)

Sadhana

sac #82

Let me understand this: If a department of the Indian Government collects evidence of corruption and opens the way to prosecuting officials in a wholly legal way in courts, its `all crap` and the offender is `openly victimised in such a callous manner` and its nothing but `kangaroo justice`?

If a unconstitutional military government in Pakistan incarcerates high-ranking ministers and many others without showing just cause and their fate is totally uncertain, its true and well-deserved justice, and actually too kind, since it is less than the deserved death or hanging? Which world are you living in?

My anecdote about the entrance exams and the approach to corruption were illustrative of `universal notions of democratic discourse and civilized conduct and justice for all` in the Third World. Democratic discourse means promoting the empowerment of all. That means creating opportunity for all. That means the state tries to be evenhanded with all in all respects. In the `real world`, progress in anything is usually incremental. Its a process of evolution through society`s efforts.

Also, there is nothing new in trying to make `uniform justice for all`, a basic tenet of society, in fact today it is considered to be beyond debate. That`s the `real world`. Does Pakistan belong to the `real` world or is it a case of we don`t want to be in the same world with India?

Its been obvious to me that there is a class in Pakistan in whose interest it is to deny any possibility of `democratic discourse and justice for all` in their own country, and one way is to negate all others` efforts in this direction. I get it, thank you.

Such a difference in trends of public debate(`democratic discourse`) and mentality: When Pervez Musharraf started rounding up loan defaulters, I posted on chowk some Indians` letters to Indian newspapers praising these efforts and suggesting the GoI try something similar for Indian loan defaulters. Interesting differences...

Sadhana

Observation:

Why Indo-Pak arguments are never resolved.

Pakistani arguments suffer from the `frustrated Mughal syndrome` : You ought to agree with us because we are a better people than you, we have a prouder genealogy and because you are worthy of hatred only.

Indian arguments suffer from `frustrated intellectual syndrome`: You ought to agree with us because we are making the better-reasoned argument and our actions match our words.

Neither argument works. The Pakistani argument because deference to Mughals is long outdated and noone wants to give in to hatred. The Indian argument doesnot work because the world doesnot run on reason alone and actions to support ideas have to speak up much louder!

Here is some cynicism for the benefit of those who have no use for anything else.

krashid #89, hamidm#87

This is meant only for those Pakistani-Americans who feel beseiged by US rhetoric to the point of desperation. Guys, I`m surprised you don`t get it yet. Explain to folks back home that its really rather simple. The old ploy of pulling the right strings and influencing the right people has not stopped working. Just hand-deliver a certain valued guest of Afghanistan to his Western admirers( without seeming to, ofcourse). Then sit back and watch how terms like `sponsor of terrorism` and `timetable for democracy` disappear and terms like `old reliable ally` and `General with sincerity and charm` begin to reappear in the rhetoric.

To all `representative government or democracy` advocates and other ideologues from both sides of the border: better get in your 2 cents worth before that time, after all, what works is what works, why clutter up clear-cut issues with principles, better save that for Kashmir.

Sadhana

Shankar:#96

How can he be a hindu-hater.Every Pakistani muslim really loves all hindus--- without Kashmir & only they stay in India,where they properly belong.Unfortunately,the poor chaps can`t live without muslims.It is not easy to break a 1100 year old habit even for the shish-asaning hindus.

Please understand this,and I mean this in all the truth telling sicerety:As time goes on muslims intend to become more & more & better & better muslims,this they pray everyday five times at least(ask someone to translate the surah fateha to you).Do not be misled by these secularist,former socialist farangi boot lickers,they are like seasonal mushrooms.The next generation,especially in farangi lands is more hijab wearing & beard sporting than their depraved & disillusioned parents.There are 7000 madressahs to date in USA & Canada.Europe not included.

The very learned are the ones who are embracing Islam (rabbis,priests,pundits,secularists---there goes your theory of forced conversions).A Pakistani God-fearing muslims best friend is a Bhagwaan-fearing hindu,never a secularist who does not mind to see his wife,daughter,or sister fornicationg in his full knowledge because he himself does those things to look modern & advanced & farangi-type.That is how he seeks worldly material benefits.Muslims in Pakistan intend to reduce them to their mushroom status--known more colorfully in the vernacular.

The other problem is that hindus are becoming cultural & religious androids in droves.They are ashamed to admit that they are hindus----lest they be mistaken for `back-wardness`,easily forgetting that they had their days of glory when they were unamalgamated hindus,shudh hindus.Not like the present day ones tainted by secularism,socialism,humanism,liberalism,this-ism,that-ism,and all schisms.

Just look at your pathetic and ugly grovelling to look `modern` by fast-tracking yourself into every western deviation & depravity as shown in Indian movies & proudly tolerated by your govt. & abandoning millenium old hindu teachings against drinking,fornicating,lustfullness,gambling & that aids-acquiring stuff which is akin to `gupt-roag`--the unmentionable disease brought to India by the farangies then & now.

You are Indian only if you are a hindu--rest is all smoke & mirrors.The third rate western countries you so obediently cackle about themselves have God firmly entrenched in their constitutions & nobody dare remove it.They themselves are not the practitioners of the lessons which you have taken to heart so zealously,unwittingly I hope.The Queen is not only head of state but head of the anglican church too! the female version khalifah,she learned to deliver speech from the throne just like the khalifa did when muslims were reading out the khutba in khalifas name from every pulpit on fridays from the Atlantic to the Pacific.

What the Ba Ba Blacksheeps do not know,wheather in India or Pakistan ,is they have become really educated(a derogatory term---do not be happy yet) rather than learned people.

These third-rate specimens of educated people cannot talk intelligently to even a small mosque imam without presenting or waving their Harvard & Cambridge toilet papers.

If you do not know sanskrit,hindi,& some of your regional languages better than english then believe me you may be a worth-less belly-filling wanna-be billionaire but you are not a learned person.Your true Brahmins & pundits will always be the learned ones with less money,you will be the silicone-chip monkey,like the fan-pulling monkey of by-gone years,for the farangi.

PS: The `you` above is not for Shankar but for each & every Ba Ba Blacksheep secularist & farangi boot-licker from India & Pakistan

Ustad Daaman summed it all up about half a century ago:

``Laali akkhyiyaan dee payee dass dee ay

Roay tusee vee o, roay asee vee aan...``

In response to krashid (Reply #: 91)

Dear Rashid:

No nation in this world is without its good and bad apples. In the case of Pakistan, I am more interested in overcoming our weaknesses. In the case of India, I want to focus on her strengths (and learn from them). This approach will not only strengthen Pakistan, but lead to better relations between the two countries.

I may be an insignificant voice, but I will continue to say what I believe is right. Peaceful coexistence is one way to minimize our self and mutual-destruction. Is this lesson really too difficult to learn by both Indians and Pakistanis?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Mind set of a typical Hindu-hater on chowk (hopefully they belong to a minority lunatic fringe)

1)

Indians & Pakistanis are morons for wasting their time commenting on this naieve, stupid article. Of course, I`m not wasting my time here because Allah has appointed me as the guardian against hindu treachery.

2)

Building bridges is just a part of the ``bagal mein churi`` hindu treachery because they will roll their tanks over it when the bridge is built.

3)

It is a well proven fact the in the heart of every hindu there is nothing but hatred for a muslim. In order to counter that, we should hate them ten times more.

4)

Begum Sarwar is on the payroll of RAW. Articles like this are meant to lull us so that India can launch an invasion when our guard is down.

5)

Iftehkar Hussein is actually a RAW agent posing as a Kashmiri muslim from Kargil. His real name is Ishwar Hari. He is actually LK Advani`s 2nd cousin from his mother`s side. I know this as a fact, from very informed sources. My sister`s father-in-laws`s barber`s son works for the ISI. They know everything.

6)

Lets give those banias the benefit of the doubt (after all, Islam teaches us to be tolerant). If Ifthekar is really a Kashmiri muslim, he undoubtedly has been forced to say this. RAW is keeping his family hostage. They will disappear if says the wrong thing.

7)

Its amazing how these so called secular, enlightened, democratic Indians display people like Ifthekar & Premji. We are on to their game. Every society has their ``Uncle Tom`s`` & ``house niggers``.Its a pathetic farce. The whole world knows their hypocracy. Of couse, those countries that are favouring India are doing it only to advance their own treacherous, selfish interests.

8)

This is the result of Pakistan wasting its money educating women. They become naieve journalists who are stupid enough to believe that Indians are human. Ms Sawar & her like should serve Pakistan well if they return to their rightful place---in the kitchen; hopefully barefoot & pregnant.

9)

You Western educated ba ba black sheep Pakistanis are going to destroy Pakistan with your liberal ideas. You are fools to trust any hindu who sweet talks you. I would rather break bread with the RSS. They are the real hindus. We know where they stand & agree that mutual hatred is the best way to go.

10)

It is a scientific fact that any Pakistani jawan can destroy his Indian counterpart blindfolded, with both hands tied behind his back. Those banias will run the first time they hear gunfire. The Indians know this. Thats why they are making these feeble attempts to build bridges.

11)

Its a well known fact that the man on the street muslim in Pakistan is so much better off than a muslim in India. Its so simple for these poor oppressed muslims to board the Sumjautha Express & migrate to Pakistan. Unfortunately, Indian muslims know that if they reveal their intentions to migrate, the hindus & sikhs will butcher them--remember 47!? Besides, even if they succeed they know that RAW will pounce on their relatives in India & kill them. We ought to liberate them from this treacherous blackmail.

12)

Hindus are trying to isolate Pakistan. They are always cunningly plotting one conspiracy after another to break up our country. Paranoia is the only way to save Pakistan .

13)

Aw, what the heck. Pakistan`s future looks bleak. Lets just cut the crap & settle all scores, once & for all, with a full scale nuclear attack. We may get destroyed. But at least we will have the satisfaction of pulling down India with us.Thats the only way to save our honor.

Macgupta#94

I am not at all surprised to see your post where you thought I am shedding tears on Nepalese Tourism.

With such an insensitive nation like Indians, who are full of lip service for Secularism, democracy and enlightenement.

Can`t you see that where you stand on this issue.

THIS IS A NEWS FROM BBC not my shedding tears. Let me rephrase, salient points and highlights.

``India seems to doubt the LOYALTY of Nepalese``

So you demand loyalty from a sovereign nation or you don`t think Nepal is sovereign.

``INDIAN MEDIA has identified one of the hijacker as Nepali National. India has not yet offered further evidence.``

Either your media is biased or is reporting without verification or is reporting in Government pressure. In all cases it can only be called biased and it does not need a democracy to have a biased media.

``Many of the allegations made against Nepal in the context of hijacking proved to be wrong.``

If a Government, a media and a nation (people like macgupta) are behind these allegation, it is called BULLYING.

Tourism seems to have come up a lot lately.

1. It is obvious that Indians don`t feel safe travelling to Nepal. The credit for that belongs to the Harkat ul Mujahideen, who were responsible for the Indian Airlines hijacking (and here I am quoting the US government, and not the Indian government). The Nepalese government, meanwhile, is not helping matters any. According to a question asked in the Indian Parliament a day or two ago :

Yadav said the Nepalese Government had turned down India’s request to allow the Indian Airlines to post its own security officers at the Tribhuvan airport at Kathmandu for frisking of passengers at the ladder point. Nepal’s firm stand is that security of flights, including the Indian Airlines and the entire operational area, was the exclusive responsibility of the Nepalese Government. It, however, assured the Indian Government that steps were being undertaken on priority basis to enhance security at its airport.

I will point out from personal experience, that having its own security folks at the plane`s doors who examine passengers and their baggage independently of any airport security is a courtesy extended to Kuwait Airlines at airports like New York`s JFK, and London`s Heathrow.

2. While krashid is piously shedding tears at what is happening to Nepal tourism, he might ask the question -- what about Kashmir ? Kashmir`s economic lifeblood is tourism, and tourism to the Valley was recovering over the last two years, until Kargil and subsequent escalation of militancy in the valley. Another credit to the Harkat ul Mujahideen, if not to the Pakistan government itself.

Ulta chor kotwaal ko dantay ...

3. Regarding the alleged paucity of tourist destinations in India, one famous tourist, Mahmud of Ghazni, in 1017, visited Mathura. He wrote back to his court that it would take untold gold and two hundred years of labor to build a city like Mathura. He then proceeded to raze it to the ground.

I am not being facetious here. If Mughal architecture is all that there is to show in North India, there is a good, historical reason for that.

Mahmud was after all, only the first of many such tourists. Then, there were the home-grown types, such as Aurangzeb. The ``Sita-ki-Rasoi`` mosque and the ``Swargadvara`` mosque in Ayodhya were companions to his ancestor`s ``Ramajanmabhoomi`` mosque.

-arun gupta

A tale of two siblings

REPORTS from New Delhi say the government there does not quite fancy the idea of `direct to home` (DTH) television beaming. In the largest democracy of the world, individuals are not allowed to savour satellite broadcasts except the stuff available via government-licensed cable operators. No doubt it is always advisable to be cautious. And to make assurance doubly sure is even better.

A cabinet minister has been helpfully candid. ``India is NOT prepared for pornography.`` That is India`s endearing modesty. ``Not prepared for pornography`` must be the under-statement of the new millennium. It is not very different from our religious parties insisting Pakistan is not prepared for democracy or the Taliban in Afghanistan prescribing the length of men`s beard and women`s shuttlecock burqa measurements. Freedom has its frontiers.

Despite all that we hear, read and see with horror, we in Pakistan and they in India have so much in common. We have a remarkable similarity that only natural siblings have. We have our Jamaats if they have their Mahasabhas. No confusion here. The two are interchangeable. Only the labels are different, not the content.

Both cultures share a blistering aversion to seeing the people trying to please themselves with entirely innocent diversions. Quite as we have enlightened barristers defending `honour killing` of girls, they are going back to the suttee which is just about the same. In `honour killing`, firearms are used; in suttee only fire.

How very straight and short is the path to salvation for both of us! In Pakistan, we have goons going about closing down ordinary eateries on Christmas eve; in India, they would have absolutely nothing to do with a little Valentine fun. Neither of us has any use for alien things. Both are consumed by the concern for the Hereafter. In India they are busy building the highway to Swarg and we to Jannat. Why fret about today if tomorrow be sweet?

In India, they are happy leading the good people to erase a mosque they had been living in peace with for no less than five hundred years. Our pious have led their flock to return the compliment. While they had a target ready, our pious people had to search for one. After much scouring they did find some abandoned ruins to make do for the needed target. It was great fun on both sides.

`Honour killing` with us and widow-baiting with them is the `in` thing. But no pornography, please. Both of us are determined to root out pornography, regardless of the cost. They say they are not ``prepared`` for it. We are after uryani and fahashi - that is, if you like, the Pakistani equivalent of the Bharati `pornography`. Both of us have benignly left these terms undefined. This is for the convenience of the monitors of morals and the piety police.

When they say they are not ``prepared`` for pornography they are being modest. When we say we shun uryani and fahashi, we are just a touch more specific. For us, what the world calls the finer arts - like dancing - is the pornography to be eliminated. This mission has been accomplished. Our good neighbours, too, see pornography in purely carnal terms. And there the matter happily ends for them.

Who are we to suggest that `pornography`, like other problems, be viewed in a realistic frame? All of us have heard about `singing in the rain`. Anti-pornography missionaries in India have invented `dancing in the rain`. Many Indian TV channels offer this fare as, to borrow a Shakespearean phrase, ``Sweet nature`s second course``. Starlets by the score are presented in a dancing fury, driving rain pouring upon them from nowhere. If you do not find this pious viewing, it`s your fault - or funeral.

In our films, too, we have similar fare, prepared according to our very own recipe. We have tailors produce exactly the cutting edge effect for what the Indians contrive rain to highlight. In India, dance once was an offering to the deities. Today, it is entirely for the vilification of the commonest of the common men. The most populous democracy has the most common people too. That`s simple arithmetic.

While all this is simply divine, what is one to do about some cranks both of us have around? Haven`t you heard people insisting that pornography comes in various shapes and forms? Not necessarily in the kind of playful stuff like dancing in the rain? For instance, it is suggested that the use of weapons where words should do is a form of political pornography. What about invading places of worship? Killing people who do not believe as we do? Scandalizing people`s views, beliefs and faiths? For some people, these represent the pornography of head and heart.

We have heard people say diplomatic tit-for-tat is pornography in diplomatic genre. Racist discrimination is considered by some as one of the more reprehensible versions of pornography, genocide is seen as pornography in human interaction. Calling names, casting aspersions on the intentions and motives of others, is increasingly viewed as pure pornography in the social domain.

Some people would say that confining the perception of pornography to mere lascivious or lustful gyrations is itself pornography, even if in the reverse.

A.B.S. JAFRI

Karachi

DAWN

Beena Sarwar writes;

````For Iftikhar, it was perhaps a more intense experience than for the others, since he had spent the summer with his family in Kargil town dodging the shelling and bullets coming from across the border. They had to evacuate their homes more than once, and he remembers thinking ``what kind of people they are who trouble us``.

``I used to hate them,`` he admits candidly, ``but after coming here and travelling about, I am quite confused in my thinking, wondering whom I should blame. The people here are so nice and hospitable. And really, I didnt feel any sort of alienness here,`` he added.````

Iftikhar Hussein is a Kahmiri muslim who lives in Kargil. I know a statement from an single person cant be generalised. But Pakistanis are always smug in their belief that Kashmiris look upon them as saviors. Surprising isnt it, how Ifthekar sounds so much like any other Indian?! O yes! he is a traitor & his family & neighbors have disowned him for even daring to think like this!

To Zeemax, BAhmed etc who are in favor of alternative dialogue like peace, peaceful coexistence. Lets see what is the meaning of peaceful coexistence.

BBC Feb 25, 2000.

NEPAL SUFFERS HIJACK FALLOUT

The number of Indian tourist to Nepal is down sharply, and hotel owners and merchants in the capital, Kathmandu, have been hard hit.

INDIAN AIRLINES has stopped all flights to this mountain KINGDOM following the hijacking of one of its passenger planes last December after it left Kathmandu.----

But what has hurt Nepalis even more is that for the first time INDIA SEEMS TO DOUBT THEIR LOYALTY.

In the first few days of the Hijack crises, for example, many people were shocked to see reports in the INDIAN MEDIA that identified one of the hijackers as a Nepali national. INDIA HAS NOT YET OFFERED FURTHER EVIDENCE, but many Nepalese say damage has already been done.

``MANY OF THE ALLEGATIONS MADE AGAINST NEPAL IN THE CONTEXT OF HIJACKING PROVED TO BE WRONG,`` says Nepal`s foreign minister, Ram Sharan Mahat.

``I think that rather than talking about presumption, we should talk about facts``` says Dr. Mahat.

Based on facts we are ready to take action to curb such activities.``

My comments for enlightened , secular and democratic India is ``STOP being a bully of the region.``

Also ``Huay Tum dost Jis ke Uska Dushman Aasman Kiyun ho.``

We don`t need friends like you.

After the partition, and the return of British to England, Mahatma Gandhi wanted to take padyatra to Pakistan and create two permanent friendly nations but he was not to be for that. It is heartening to learn that the spirit is still there in the people of both the countries. The politics of the two countries do not realise this and vested interest for power continues to widen the gap.

Sadhna

When Nawaz Sharif was elected second time, his main support came for two reasons.

Accountability or ``Ehtesab``

Breaking away the ``Kashkol`` i.e self-sufficiency.

And whatever you call it people want accountability of looters of National Exchequer, whatever party he or she belongs.

I can give you example of democratic France where DeGaulle ruled like a king or example of China although not a democracy but current leaders are very knowledgeable about people`s aspiration.

I can give you example of Iran with controlled democracy, which is very successful.

What is in the interest of people of Pakistan, we know better.

We are and do not want to sit on a high ideal of enligthenement, democracy and secularism, and kill hundreds of thousands of people to voice their demand.

You as a highly intellectual person would know better than me the difference between, cruel deeds and empty words. And not only that but to justify cruelty and play with words.

What is your stand on Taiwan and China. (Although China is threatening only and has not done massive killing to the scale of hundreds of thousands like India is doing in Kashmir).

But you are sitting on an empty castle of enlightenement, democracy, and secularism.

JR #84

The LAME DUCK reason of religion is accepted in Bosnia Herzegovina, Kosovo, Chechneya and North Ireland very currently.

Have your facts straight.