American Born, British Born, Canadian Born but still Desi

Having lived in England for 5 years myself and been in the States for 3 years now, I found the article pretty interesting. But what I was taken a back by was the sheer depth of terminology in the replies, ranging from ABCDs to PBCDs and all the alphabet in between. I think I`m pretty ignorent when it comes to the vast classifications of people from my region, yet the one thing I have learnt from the 21 years of my life is that baseless belief in steriotypes is the worst mistake any one can make, and it just puzzles me pakistani`s here classify themselves and those around them into these steriotypes. Another thing that shocks me is the sheer use of the racial slur `paki` all over the forum, if you`ve lived in England you really do take offense from that.

P.S. I just joined the Chowk 10 minutes ago, and my post is based on the limited browsing I did.
I am reading for my BS in ECE and am in my last year

ABCD

`ABCD,` about an East Indian American family, is one of several ethnic films hoping for a wider appeal.

By JON MATSUMOTO, SPECIAL TO THE LOS ANGELES TIMES

When Krutin Patel co-wrote the script to his film ``ABCD`` in 1993, the most prominent East Indian in American pop culture was probably Apu from the television series ``The Simpsons.`` Eight years later, that animated convenience store clerk is still the most recognizably East Indian character in American television and film.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/printedition/calendar/la-000094888nov29.story

The paucity of East Indian American representation in the popular arts in this country is a primary reason why Patel feels so passionately about his independently made drama, which captures the intriguing dynamics of an East Indian American family.

``ABCD,`` which opens Friday at selected theaters, is one of a handful of new films involving rarely seen immigrant American characters and scenarios. ``The Debut,`` which is currently in theaters, and ``American Adobo,`` which is slated to open in Los Angeles on Jan. 23, are both small movies reflecting Philippine American life. A coming-of-age film about a Philippine American teenager, ``The Debut`` opened in Los Angeles in early October and has grossed more than $1 million. Home to large Philippine American populations, the Los Angeles and San Francisco areas have accounted for 90% of the film`s box-office success, according to its distributor, 5 Card Productions.

All three of these films deal in some way with ethnic minority immigrants and their children trying to reconcile traditional cultural values with very different American attitudes.

In ``ABCD,`` two grown children react differently to the expectations of their loving but very traditional Indian-born mother (Madhur Jaffrey). Older brother Raj (Faran Tahir) tries to conform to her wishes. He has a very respectable job as a Manhattan accountant and is engaged to a traditional Indian woman he does not entirely love. His younger sister Nina (Sheetal Sheth) rebels against conservative Indian mores by dating non-Indian men and by embracing a sexually promiscuous lifestyle.

Having emigrated from India to the U.S. at age 8, Patel is familiar with the difficulty of trying to straddle the line between two cultures. Like many men with Indian immigrant parents, he felt the pressure to land a white-collar job. To appease his parents` concerns about his desire to enter the uncertain field of filmmaking, he majored in both film and finance at New York University. While he hopes to transition into filmmaking full time, Patel currently works in the marketing department at the Food Network in New York.

Ironically, previous screenings of the film have indicated that ``ABCD`` is unlikely to be fully embraced by the Indian American community, particularly by that segment which espouses conservative cultural values.

``The strongest reaction to the film has come, believe it or not, from non-Indian Americans,`` remarks Patel, who also directed and co-produced ``ABCD.`` ``There are those in the Indian American community who don`t want to see its dirty laundry hung in public. The portrayal of characters like Nina [makes them uncomfortable]. They want to keep their heads in the sand. In the Indian community the film will raise a few eyebrows. That`s a good thing because there will be debate about it. We tend to be a community that doesn`t communicate in regard to some of these harder issues.``

Nina is the film`s most complex character. She rebels against the sexual conservatism of her ethnic culture. Yet her contrary ways also keep her from finding the emotional intimacy in her romantic relationships that will lead to happiness. When she finds herself falling in love with an Indian man she reluctantly meets on a date arranged by her mother, she is disinclined to commit to the relationship.

Patel says the Nina character has sparked much debate during question-and-answer sessions following screenings of the film. Some Indian Americans have found her to be an inaccurate representation of their people. Others have found her to be very real.

Patel recalls, ``One of my memories of showing this at a film festival was a British Indian girl telling me, `That`s my life up there on screen.` I was like, `Wow, thank you.` Nina really translated to her experience.``

``ABCD,`` whose relatively polished look belies its modest $200,000 budget, couldn`t have been made without the financial help of Patel`s friends and relatives.

``After my parents came to America, they helped other Indian immigrants who subsequently came to this country,`` explains Patel, who spent about five years raising money to make his film. ``Some 30 years later I needed financial backing and they turned around and gave me that help.`` Only a few of the Indian American investors asked to read the script.

Moviegoing is hugely popular in India. But Patel believes there would be little interest there in a serious-minded film about an Indian American family. Bollywood, as the Indian film industry is known, generally produces escapist melodramas.

The hope is that films like ``ABCD`` and ``American Adobo`` will find audiences among independent film lovers and in specific minority communities in the increasingly multiethnic U.S. Patel says there are sizable Indian populations in most major American cities. ``ABCD`` is slated to open in 15 to 20 markets in North America.

Non-Indian audiences may not fully understand a few of the cultural subtleties of the film and some viewers may not empathize with Raj`s possible encounter with workplace discrimination. But Patel feels he has fashioned a movie that has mainstream allure.

``I always wanted to make sure that the movie appealed beyond Indian people,`` Patel insists. ``As we started showing it at festivals so many people would say to me, `I`m not Indian, but so much of this film I can relate to my own family.` That`s when I realized that the film really has a universal appeal. My writing and directing style is going for a certain realism. If you make characters that are human and real they will transcend ethnic lines.``

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sabah:#160

PBCDs are the most pathetic bunch of all.They should be called PBCCC.......CDs.C would stand for completely corrupted crackpots......confused Desis.The blanks should be filled in as & when memory meets the vocabulary.

Now mind you I am only talking about the confused ones only.MAJORITY of the Pakistani ones who have not forgotten their language,culture,food,clothing,language and respect for elders,in short all those qualities which would make a gora or clone-gora look like Conan the Cave-man,are poised to conquer these lands.

These are the ones who are hiring the ABCDs,BBCDs,& CBCDs as well as grandsons & grand-daughters of their former colonial masters.

Allright blame the ABCD`s and BBCD`s - but what about the PBCD`s?????????

What excuse have they ???

Adil #54

``Mere se Maththa kiyun Kharab Karta Hai``

``Very many people think so.

KRashid.....

Well, how could saying Allah-u-Akbar not give him strength...:-) This reminds me of Mohammad Ali and how he used to say that having the names Mohammad and Ali gave him so much strength. There may well be an extra pulse and an extra energizing factor within his body`s cells when this Brit takes Allah`s name. Regardless, my opinion is that Muslims should probably be the first to come outright and ban boxing because now it has been pretty much proven that boxing is damaging to the brain and its functionality....just a thought really.....

Any thought on Prince Naseem Hamed a through and through British saying Allah u Akbar before his fight.

And later telling it gives him strength.

SHRizvi:#55

Thank you.As long as our ummah has brilliant people like you North America is safe morally & culturally.

Please invite others like you on chowk to counter the secularist fashion.The english parrots & mynahs are hogging it.We need some shaheens from all over.

wassalaam.

Salaam alaikum.

Having just been lead to chowk by a good friend in PA, my comments to this thread may be a little `out-dated`...regardless, it may be worth the effort.

I agree with you that there are many of our fellow brethren as you described. At the same time, I think you are really udnerestimating all that we as Muslims or as Pakistanis have accomplished after having left our homelands.

I travel often via work and it is so gratifying every time I come across a fellow Muslim who is successfully leading a career/business/etc. And when it is a Pakistani, it is sort of `extra` gratifying....and there are plenty of pak-origin success stories out there my friend....

Those of us who are here in the West, be it as abcds or new immigrants (yes, we FOBS), are often a true asset to our neighborhoods and cities. The dynamic culture and thoughts we bring adds so much flavour to the perhaps relatively bland scenarios that `were` in N. America. Generally, we have less violence, abuse, addictions and more education, work ethics, family values, etc etc......there are always exceptions, but I feel there are sufficient positive stories out there to allow me to say that we have not done too bad a job of representing our culture in this part of the world.....needless to say, we could all work harder.....perhaps just being more effective in whatever it is we do daily will bring about a `better` image of us all......working harder, studying harder, playing harder, etc etc.....

My friend, your thoughts indicate that you hold our values in high regard.....that is exemplary....at the same time my good friend, I suggest you head to our Centers...perhaps religious centers......you may not be as disappointed in most cases.

Just a few cents/paisas worth of thoughts.....

To Krashid:

I`m not sure I understand what you mean. Not because I am a Muslim, but I`d like you to elaborate a little bit more:).

To say that Islam is only a ``way of expression`` is to grossly simplify the noblest way of life(when practiced in its highest form). I realize that Muslims in the world today are plagued by civil war, disagreements, and cultural and social problems but this is NOT a result of the true practice of Islam. Rather it is due to cultural and political constraints that have been forced upon the true Islamic way of life. However, by this I don`t mean that there is only ONE Islam, and that`s the end of the story. Islam is meant to be practiced in such a way so that cultural and social boundaries do not affect one`s faith. There rules of Islam are actually very flexible when one studies them and it can be practiced in a few different ways(as demonstrated by the various schools of Islamic thought). The sad reality today is that a Muslim`s faith is affected tremendously by the culture and society that a person is raised in. And when constraints of these types are placed on Islam, it gradually becomes misunderstood and incorrectly represented by those who practice it.

The whole underlying theme of this thread seems to be the gradual divergence in the fundamental value systems of the progeny of first generation immigrants.

This is bound to happen, - nothing remains static and immune to cultural & sociological conditioning of the surrounding environment. With few exceptions - preservation of the 1st generation value system`` is rare if not impractical.

Will ABCD`s eventually amalgamate into Mainstream Americana - I think so - the first thing to go is language & cultural affinity, - family bonds amongst ABCD`s are much more loosely defined, they are very individualistic ( much like their american bretheren), and the religious values ( as a collective group) still in the formative stage. - Remember most of the Islamic
organizations are still run by first generation immigrants - the generational transition if & when it occurs will be a litmus test of the presevation
of the Islamic legacy in America.

I think ABCd`s are headed the same way Bosnian Muslims were assimilated in the Slavic cultures.... - nominally Muslim... - Whether it is right or wrong - I am not here to judge.

A similar case can be made of Arabs ( Muslim) & Albanians who arrived in the US in the early part of the 20th century. With few rare exceptions & an occasional last name - it is hard to differentiate
them from others. So we see American Islam evolving much like the Askenazi`s evolved much to the chagrin of the Hasidic & shepardic communities .
Well proponents argue that Islam on the US has reached critical mass and therefore will survive & prosper much like it did in the Indian subcontinent for centuries. Of course even they agree that the language and culture becomes part of family folklore.- the activisim & resurgence of US Islamic organizations is laudable
but can this longeivity be preserved beyond the enthusiasm of the first generation fearful of its unique ``minority`` status.

These are all contentious issues - and they are enough arguments to deabte this issue for a long time. I think a precise debate should revolve around whether Islam can survive in a highly individualistic - consumer oriented society in the West. They are those who argue that the East is fast rushing towards embracing Western material pursuits.( hard to deny but that is another argument altogether)

Lets not be judgemental here, social sensibilities and etiquette differ between the 1st & second generation. the fundamental value system as it pertains to marriage, family, career, - also is substantially different. Linguistic & cultural tastes are also varied.

I find American Islam overwhelmingly ritualistic ( Islam has ritual aspects) - the hijab, the Friday congregation, Ramazan, etc etc .... - sort of carving a cultural identity out of religious roots ...

The more fundamental issues pertaining to family cohesion are severely strained, issues such as taking care of the elderly, leaving home at 18,
marriage & divorce, dating & drinking ( in some cases), career Vs family are more in tune with Americana. Perhaps we are secularizing our life & placing religion into a Friday social activity ...
A common repartee would be ``Is Pakistan Any better``??? - for that I have no answer :)

I felt despite our obsessive precoccupation with material pursuits ... ( ala the rat race)
& our subsequent material well being
there is something amiss - perhaps just nostalgia,
perhaps our vision of xanadu........

OMAR1974:#50

Thank you!

Now the same thing has been said about you by hahmad post # 58 on your own board (Talibisation or the Tur-----).Why take it out on me?That gentleman is still waiting for a response.

And you an aspiring lawyer?This is what you do when confronted with an unpalatable viewpoint?

Please marshall some sensible arguements & then post them.Declaring people kaffirs,psychos,or modern is just not enough command over the language.

And by the way,I would love to parry with you in your own field too i.e.Law--although I never went to any liberal-faculty school.

wassalaam.



PS:Please visit ``Taliban ----`` board & check out post # 58,to fully appreciate this.

``The vision of Mirza`` by Joseph Addison,that great english language essayist around 1770s or so,would certainly make our Mirza happy.Was it a prominition of Addison?

Farangi:

Thanks, and yes, I know where you`re coming from. Most likely, it`s the girls who get the most corrupted here in America. I know plenty of 15 year olds who wear Hijab and attend Muslim schools but also date and dance at rave parties. I`m 18 and can say thanks to Allah`s guidance, I`ve narrowly escaped these types of catastrophes. The best advice i can give someone in this type of situation is to figure out what what it is you really want out of life and to stay moderately within your limits. sure, have fun but know where to stop.

take care

Many Desis `abroad` are fanatical looneys. (Farangi__Kush is clearly one such looney, to whom the notion of `farangi` xyz, has completely gone to his head and addled his already small non-working brain. Methinks he needs to go visit a shrink, have his head examined.)

Much worse than the average desis in Desihomelands. I guess being away from `home` makes them fanatic puritans. They seem to live in a culture all of their own, outside the mainstream of both their `home` culture, and outside the North American social mainstream as well. These expectations are unrealistic. Can`t expect to live by building a wall around yourself and still be a part of society.

Just my view.

Omar

ShahGul:(my post # 46)

My sincere apologies for having miassed your name inadvertantly.In fact it was your post which triggered the urge to reply.

May Allah bless you & your little ones.

wassalaam.

Shahgul:

I missed your name inadvertantly in my post#46.

My profuse apologies! Thanks a lot.

Your viewpoint also helped me to get a better perspective of the cultural Panorama here.Thanks again.

wassalaam

Thank you for your kind words Shahab. To answer your question, I work for the Mitchell Madison Group.

Hassan

Kashmiri girl,Anjani,Subuhi,Manail:

Thank you for your input & teaching a thing or two to a person like me who was weaned on the english alphabet soup by the colonisers & ``educated`` to despise my own language,food,religion & culture.

You,especially,girls of India & Pakistan are a beacon of hope not only for our communities but also,inshallah,prove to be guiding light for the entire humanity in future.

Sometimes it is only from a distance that one can see oneself in sharp focus.As they say in the Zulu tribes(one Zulu chieftain taught me this) ``The fish cannot see water``.

Allama Iqbal,the greatest guide for us in recent times for muslims of Indian & Pakistani origin,said that it was Europe which converted him to Islam (meaning he never looked himself critically before that & took his being a muslim for granted)

Girls!This century belongs to you.Now go and get it.

Suggestion:Math,Science,& religion are the subjects to study.Forget social & political science---only good to produced programmed drones.This area of non-learning is at best being `tolerated` for the simple reason that it act as a front-line fodder for real learning i.e Science & math by the farangi universities.

With your feminine qualities & strengths (charming & nurturing!) we men can be tempered & annealed and learn to use Science & technology for helping rather than hindering `progress`.

Wassalaam.

hey,

nice article....im not sure if this message is gonna be emailed to the guy who wrote it or what...

but anyway...i agree with the hypocrisy u mentioned in the article....trust me it isnt a pretty picture when u go to these desi parties... and bump into ``ghetto desis`` as they are called at penn...dont mean to sound harsh with that comment..just being candid...

keep it up..

shahab

p.s which consulting firm do you work for?

Reading these replies, I am once again reminded of the Rushdie story, The Courter, and in particular, the following lines:

But I, too, have ropes around my neck, I have them to this day, pulling me this way and that, East and West, the nooses tightening, commanding, choose, choose...I buck, I snort, I whinny, I rear, I kick. Ropes, I do not choose between you. Lassoes, lariats, I choose neither of you, and both. Do you hear? I refuse to choose.

`I refuse to choose.` Seems a perfectly acceptable option to me.

Hassan

You went to a club/bar what did you expect? Not that those are the only types there…but you weren’t going to get serious conversations.

Anyways, each ABCDs is different stop expecting more from them..they are only a product of bi-cultural living in a society where the rules of conduct are still forming.

Rafay alam

Well said…

I’m an ABCD and damn proud of it. Half the people think I’m too dessi and the other half will think I’m too American.

ps

Hey everybody knows Punjabi guys are hot.

RE: #40 Manail

Manail, as someone who went to school with you in Pakistan, and who shares your experience of college and work in the US, i agree with most of what you said. I ``also wonder about how many more people there are out there (in cities, in suburbia, on college campuses, in corner stores) who share this sense of nostalgia, mixed with a need to identify with others, and a tinge of sadness at being socially and professionally `successful` but personally quite lost.``

Beautifully expressed. My own sadness is also mixed with guilt, because i am here and others - my family, my school friends - are not.

But i think there`s a danger for people like us to conjure up a ``magical`` motherland in pure nostalgia. I think it`s the ``magic`` here - satisfying jobs, universal respect - that keeps us in the West despite the pain of being away from our families. Of course i wonder if it`s worth it. I`m not sure.

I think our sense of confusion and isolation is touched upon in the much-maligned poem ``Help! Is Anyone Out There?``, currently on the Chowk front page. Whatever its technical shortcomings, i think its plea is an effective counter to the kind of culture Hasan presents in his article.

See you soon, love!

Kaukab

Hassan: first of all I have to say that I realize what you`re trying to say. I also have to say that before I came to america, I didn`t know anything about my religion. Sure, I was in Pakistan with my family who all happen to be reasonably God-fearing but I didn`t know about Hijab and the other obligatory things in Islam. it is ironic how these things turn out but then again why are you learning about paki-americans at a club? why not a Masjid or a community center of some sort? of course you`ll see people like that in clubs- we`ve all seen them.

anyway i enjoyed reading your article and i hope things start looking up for the rest of us.

Hassan,

You`ve written about an issue close to many of our hearts. As a desi born and raised in Pakistan, and an immgrant educated and now working in the US, my friends and I share your sense of confusion. We also wonder about how many more people there are out there (in cities, in suburbia, on college campuses, in corner stores) who share this sense of nostalgia, mixed with a need to identify with others, and a tinge of sadness at being socially and professionally `successful` but personally quite lost.

In my observation, there are many sub-sets to the expatriate desi communities. Aside from the usual first- and second-generation immigrants, there are the new immigrants who have seen a comparable lifestyle in their native countries, but have moved here for whatever reason - education, the broadening of horizons, relocation of spouse/family etc. This is the group I found most dissatisfied - they experience a sense of loss and deep longing even as they adapt and integrate seamlessy into Western culture, also professionally surpassing their Western peers.

I have had numerous conversations with friends about how it is becoming easier and easier to pack up and go right back home, because of the better or comparable opportunities that are now beginning to be on offer. Societal problems, double standards, social ills, hypocrisy, poverty, and depravity in the mother country - all these become negligible as compared to the ability to be among family and friends, to speak your language, practice your very own lifestyle (be that `desi`, `Westernised`, `Americanised`, or an amalgamation of it all).

For some of us, there is no question of a choice. But some of us make the choice to stay. The fact is though that such a choice becomes harder and harder to justify every passing day. How does one forget a time and place so magical?

I can only speak for myself - despite the fact that I love my job, have many friends, am in regular contact with my friends and family in Pakistan, and have found a sub-culture of thinking and enlightened desis in the West, there is still only one place I refer to as home. Three guesses for which one that is.

Manail

PS Do take a look at my poem, `On hearing of the Death of BM`, in previous entries. You`ll find allusions to this thread there.

Things common to all desis.....

Aha!! we gravitate to things we excel in ....
HYPOCRISY .... hey its my birthright !!! and to a large degree of social conditioning at home ( freudian can of worms :)))) regardless of where you were raised .... - we have our set of prejudices, .... and right to scream publicly on the bulletin boards ( no matter how unintelligible it might be), SO who casts the first stone - not I said the saint ....

Musing : FOB urbanites are a little more subtle in expressing their prejudices - the forthrightness of ABCDs is rather refreshing at times and their candor is often times a reflection of naivette more than anything else ....

Hassan:

During Zia`s third year two friends visited Pakistan from Canada (after an absence of five years). Both were there for four weeks, in the same city and two of those weeks overlapped.

When they returned I asked them about their impressions. Here`s what they told me:

A: I was impressed by islamization of the society. In certain areas of the city, traffic would stop, shops will bring down shutter and everyone will offer their prayers, girls were modestly dressed, even women TV anchors wore dupatta over their heads, and men sherwani. There was a definite Islamic feel in the air...

B: Yaar, when they learned I was visiting from Canada, they would only offer me a Bud or a Schlitz. They wouldn`t even ask for tea. All drinks were freely available. The bootlegger was a army major in uniform. Just call in your order. TV announcers looked grim and sad, as if in mourning. Ayyashi as usual, private discos and all.....

The conclusion, Hassan is simple: we see what we want to see.

I have lived here for a very long time now. I am not familiar with your characters. Yes, they do exist. But they are a very small segment of the desis settled here.

Anyways, welcome to the crazy world of Chowk. And please keep contributing.

regards

temporal

Interesting to read all of the responses about how unapologetically racist many (most?) desis are. I remember reading a sociology article years ago in grad school that discussed South Asian perceptions of racism in the US. Essentially, South Asians were appalled and outraged by white racism in the US. What the most interesting thing was that, as one interviewee put it, ``How dare they say that my Aryanness is not as good as their Aryanness.`` In short, it was OK to discriminate against the blacks because everyone knew that they were inferior/criminal/subhuman, but it was not ok to discriminate against Indians (especially North Indians).

Before some Indian on Chowk has a conniption, let me say that I include Pakistanis in the generic group ``North Indian`` for the purposes of this post. Lets not forget that the original root of Varna is, I believe, colour!

The article represents a crude observation of west, and western desis. Africans are wonderful people - my favorite people in the whole wide world. I would not have even commented on this piece of rubbish if not for some absolutely wretched replies I just read.

Sri:

That Indian girl may have an IQ of 170, but I reckon your IQ is 0. And don’t give us this rubbish, we’ve heard it all before. I am sure you usually start this filth with “I am not racist but…….”

Get a life!

Shahgul:

What your friend told you is the quickest way to the hell of ignorance. Your friend is an idiot, and they come in all colors and sizes.

Batter:

You say,

“(Did I tell you most of the ABCD`s are embarassed of their parents - accents/languages/dress styles maybe!!). Needless to say, they have absolutely no or minimal original culture left in them. “

Are you talking about yourself here?

Your comments about African Americans are extremely offensive. Also, your experiences with desis in the west don’t say much about your social circle. Stop hanging around with losers.

Zaynab:

Good on ya!

I am not ABCD; I am a DCBA desi. Some call me FOB. I have not lived in America; in fact I have never been there. However, from what I have read about the history of African Americans, their plight, in some ways, is similar to the plight of Aborigines of Australia. Aborigines of Australia have still not been able to accept the western way of looking at life. Two hundred years after the arrival of Europeans in this continent, Aborigines are a small minority. They have lost everything - their culture, their identity, their way of life. It’s all gone – snatched away from them. They are still unable to come to terms with European ideas of ownership of land, air, and water. Aboriginal way of looking at life is completely different to that of Europeans. I don’t completely understand how the destruction of a nation to such an extent affects individual members of that nation, but when I see an Aborigine lying drunk on a footpath, I can feel their sadness, and I do understand why they live the way they live.

Cheers,

Fairdinkum

Re: Reply #14

bahmad

You wrote--

``Could you please identify some rich aspects of both Pakistani/Indian and American cultures? Now, tell us how these rich aspects could be combined effectively in the context of a society that is both rich and poor (good and bad). ``

An example of taking the best of both cultures would be to adopt the self reliant ``DO-IT YOURSELF`` attitude that Americans have, with the strong family values of the sun continet.

The trend that only the government can solve the problems that plague our life, is very prevelant in our part of the world.

The streets are dirty and (we will dirty it some more) because what else can we do... its the govt ``jamadhar that does not do his duty``.

The police are corrupt, the MLA is corrupt, the MP is corrupt but there is nothing that we do, simply becuase we have lost the will to do it.

Perhaps if we could adopt even a little bit of the American indignation, at things that are wrong in our lives, we would be so much better off.

AD

zaynab:

hear hear.

rizvi.

Hassan:

Having gone to school in the city and now living there, you must know better than to draw conclusions about ABCDs on the basis of the local party scene.

You can go to any party in NY and you will have your usual mix of oddballs and `normal` folks. Why should the desis be immune from such distinctions? However, if you were using the party scene to merely present your impression of ABCDs in general, then thats a different issue altogether. Without generalizing too much(if that were indeed possible!!) I think ABCDs and their behaviours are more of a reflection of their economic backgrounds rather than their cultural ones. This becomes even more pronounced when you get away from big cities like NY and Chicago.

I am sorry that your quest for the classy-desi has proved fruitless for now. There are in fact some very fine desis around (in all corners of the world) but you need to spot them. Maybe you need to broaden your social cirle a bit too.

advice..the desi party scene in NY is the same regurgitation (sp?) of the characters you met in different sizes, skin tones and accents..don`t go. also, expand your horizons..i had done `touba` from desi`s here too when i realized, if i think im different, there`s gotta be more like me out there. thank god there are. just ask `t`. he can vouch for me..:)

z.rizvi.

Adil#35

It is a way of expression only.

If anybody thinks Islam has negative aspects, then this is one positive aspect.

There is basically nothing wrong with being British, Pakistani, American or Indian(indians are so different from Pakistanis, that it is unfair to lump them all under the blanket term `desi`).

What is basically wrong is to think we are better than the others.

If assimilation consists of identification with a certain geographical area, there is nothing wrong with it.

It is a ensures survival to adapt to the local culture, customs, traditions, food and language.

The Arabs and Greeks who came to India hundreds and thousands of years ago do not call themselves Greek or Arab any more. Assimilation is natural.

It is only compromise that is a threat.

It is OK to wear the dress of the land where you live, but you must adapt it to your idea of decency.

It is OK to speak the language that you are going to speak, and even OK to forget the language of your forefathers, because it will be on no use to you, except for a sentimental value.

I arrived in the US as an adult, and adapted to the culture fully, where it did not clash with Islamic ideals.

I don`t care if my kids foret to speak Urdu(except for if they want bilingual skills), but they should be able to read the Quran.

I have give up wearing Shalwar Kameez(which is akin to committing heresy in desi circles), but I take full Hijaab, and turn away from sour remarks from desis.

Incidentally, all my friends are American Muslim, who have been a very positive influence on me and my children. I have got so used to their simple anasuming ways, that I have to be dragged to a Pakistani/Indian gathering with women dressed to their teeth, discussing latest Indian movies.

I have found God in America, and don`t miss Pakistan(though love of the country will never die in my heart).

You are looking in the wrong places! A club is the best place to find normal desi who have adapted to the western culture and yet maintained their identities.

Hasan,

While I am interested in anyone who has anything to say about the differences between Pakistani`s brought up abroad and those born in Pakistan, I must add to your comments my opinion that there is much more to be delved into and learnt about this antagonism; that it is not entirely productive to demarcate “ABCD`s” as ``hypocrites`` and then walk away. There is much more here to ponder about.

An example: Do you think that the cultural differences (for lack of a better phrase) between foreign-born and indigenous Pakistanis has anything to do with their parent`s social or economic background? After all, the affluent Pakistanis of the 60`s weren`t pressed to find a better life anywhere else. So, are second generation foreign-born Pakistani in any way to blame for their parents migration?

A few years ago, I chaired a talk about the antagonism between foreign-born Pakistanis and indigenous Pakistanis. Halfway through the proceedings, some Karachite stood up and announced that anyone who didn`t want to go back to Pakistan lacked self-esteem. A fight broke out. At the end of the meeting, which, unsurprisingly, followed the fight, someone came up to me and explained why the proceeding had offended her. This person explained that her parents were Pakistani, but, for all practical purposes, she was English - and proud of it! I ask you: Who is anyone to challenge this view? Perhaps it is our collective failing (I am responsible, I must admit, for my share of antagonism) to realise that people who are brown do not necessarily share our opinions of the world, just as we do not share thiers.

Sincerely,

Rafay

PS: A joke that transpired from the doomed meeting: ABCDEFGHIJ - American Born Confused Desi Escaped From Gujrat Housed In Jersey.

This is a comment addressing Krashid who replied to Hassan`s article. Firstly, the articly written here by Hassan is well-written thought a little general.

Krashid, one aspect of your article struck me in particular. You said something about ``the negative aspects of Islam.`` As a Muslim I had trouble understanding the idea of negativity in Islam, of any sort. Allow me to elaborate:)

My first question to you is, what aspects of Islam do you believe to be negative? Second, why do you think these aspects ARE negative? And third, are you absolutely sure that these ``aspects`` are purely Islamic, or are they aspects you have seen displayed in an ``islamic society`` today that have been distorted through cultural influence and the human mind?

A good article and observation.

If I were writing my emotions (not thoughts), I would write the same way.

As an adult FOB, with a possible, middle or higher middle class background, with our own stereotype, I would be very disturbed to see a new kind of people whose brought up and ethical values are much different from mine.

If I rationalize, first for myself. It is very hard for me (coming as an adult) to accept the western values and if I try to assimilate, I will be faking. So the best approach for me is I accept the other person as he/she is and I keep to myself. People understand me and I understand them. More difficult to adapt are FOB adult (beyond 20) desis, who have ASSIMILATED in Western culture. For my children, I would not like them to be destroyed by this culture and will try to teach whatever I can. But I know as other people have pointed out that they will have their own culture related to their society and in peer pressure they are going to loath me/us. Either I go back home or accept this fact.

Another dimension is economic aspect. Whether they belong to a upwardly mobile professional family or to a blue collar family is also a determining factor in their outlook. And it is an established fact that children of professional upwardly mobile family do better.

The third aspect is African-American. As a FOB, I will say this, that the struggle of Blacks in America has paved the direction of society whose fruit is eaten by us Desis. (Forget Irish, jewish etc, they are whites, even if bad blood as jewish). Moreover, blacks are not only outspoken, but are very friendly and helpful. I think they are most friendly out of other groups.(personal observation). As far as low ethical standard of African-American(AA), there is no doubt. It has many historical reasons. But it is not only accepted by other people but AA themselves.

All the negative aspects of Islam apart, one positive aspect (my observation) of Islam is that AA who accepts Islam in long run are changed people. Also I have seen some AA professionals, but their ethical standard (from my perspective) is low.

Well done hassan! Keep writing.

Very thought provoking yet extremely biased piece of writing… it’s a rush of judgment on the part of the author and many others who are analyzing culture and people from small scoop and narrow prospect … I have been around many desis who were born and raised in many different and variety of cultures (US, Middle east, UK, even Nigeria !) .. and quite frankly I did find them very well informed and aware of their culture and identity. The Desi breed at home (Pakistan in this case) is more confused than any one else!…. extremism, liberalism, provincialism, racism.. is fueling the prevailing confusion .. throw in the mass murders, child labor, male dominance, ILLITERACY, economic chaos and BINGO! you have a perfect mix for a dangerously confused and corrupt culture. Its very disturbing to see that desis harbor racism against “black” culture.. read desi news papers and you will see word “KALA” (black) used so abundantly .. IT’S A SHAME ..!!!

I don’t see what in the world this dude has against the people who dress, walk or talk like African American culture.. imagine I sat with the guy .. and later wrote on CHOWK “ I saw this desi last night at the Blue Mid Night , acting like “FARHANGI” (WHITE/ANGLO), dressed in a blue jeans like HILL BILLY , head banging like a SKINHEAD, living in a classy suburb, talking to NA-MAHREM women., clubbing in defiance his “own culture, sipping on “tonic” against the teaching of his religion…. That desi FOB was not so fresh or was he?” …………..

Hassan:

Supposing the title was:Chinese born,Japanese born,Indian born but still a Limey---or Canuck or Yankee.

My point is this:No matter where you were born you should still fiercely be who you are,in fact,more staunchly so;just to flaunt the difference.Anybody who has a cringing fear of not showing their true self (in dress,manners,food,language,religion etc etc) is really a SLAVE.If you do not believe what I say just read the first paragraph above and see what the true FREE people do.For them it is a non-issue.If not English,then what?

The refrain in the sixties by the socialist hordes(of Nehru,the secularists` spawns) led by the Kapoors in the movies,was;

Mera joota hai japane

yeh patloon inglistani

sur pai lal topi roosi

phir bhi dil hai hindustani

This red cap of communism stayed red only with the constants bleeding of the hindustani heart untill there was no red cap in vogue.This way of thinking is possible only by a people who treat their religion as some kind of anachronistic Disney-land & measure its` success by its ability to take the form of the conquerer and being under the illusion of being Free(read alive,breathing,making money!!!).

Case in point:Is abandoning all cherished millenium tested traditions,values, & civilities not a betrayal of being a hindustani(desi--if you will)

Are you still Desi when puppy-fashion(pavlovian?)

you embrace all kind of depravities getting wafted out of the pandoras` closet & being considered scientific & modern with impunity(just wait! a few more taboos are still there to be made the dominant discourse--thank you bilal ahmad--of the farangi `greatness`).



But I am happy to report that most of the desi kids in the farangi lands are turning out to be much better & responsible than those parents who were brought up with the colonial culture of baighairti,bayhayee, & baisharmee.Amomng the Muslim community at least I know for a fact that a majority of ABDs are not Cs.They are prosperous and they follow the customs & rituals of their religion,wear hijab & sport beards(we must always talk about it to bring back the glamour & fashion of such things).Such confident behaviour is to be seen more here than in the wanna-be-clone countries politely called India & Pakistan.

You are just a NOBODY if you do not have pride in your dress,language,food(the smelly one),religion,and scholarship.Please look around you at the proud Germans,Japanese,Chinese,Spanish,Italians,French,Arabs,Iranis and then witness the ``slaves``: Latinos,Indo-Paks,west Indians,Australians,Canadians,some Africans etc etc.I hope you understand what I mean.

Sometimes I wonder that the people from India & Pakistan(East of Sind only) are perhaps cursed & condemned to be slavish forever.Having money has never being a criteria----Remember Somnath?.Why are these slaves so eager be invited to the white house? why do these slaves always invite a gora to their functions,why do these slaves are the goras` a-- lickers all the time.Nobody,but Nobody does it.Can`t we learn anything from the Freest people right next to us:The Afghans & pathans!

Ok now for some 2 cents on this article from a self-confessed ``CBCD``- Canadian Born COOL Desi!! :)

This article is utter nonsense and reinforces typical stereotypes that ``FOBs`` love to carry about ABCDs. Yes there is a segment of ABCDs that fall into your generalizations. Extrapolating this to the entire ABCD population is however unfair and very inaccurate.

A similar analogy would be for me to spend some time with kids from a ``Defence`` society of Pakistan and extrapolate that to how all Pakistanis youth are like.

I suggest you spend some time outside of those desi ``clubs`` and spend time meeting other ABCDs at the ``dawaats``, MSAs, your next door neighbour or even in the office that you work. Do this over an extended period of time and then write some updated comments.

One piece of advice though, before you meet some of the the more mainstream ``ABCDs``, please remove your holier than thou, all ABCDs are confused attitude. You may find that conducive to a more pleasant conversation.

Good luck

Fozia

AD #14 You recommend the DO-IT-YOURSELF culture of the US as something we could usefully adopt in Pakistan. You recommend NOT TOLERATING shoddy work, and doing something about it. Combine the two and what do you get: a country that WORKS. These are fine suggestions indeed. Of course, Pakistan is not totally deprived of people with such attitudes, but we need more of this and the US certainly has this in spades.

Sri:

``Has it got anything to do with culture? I don`t know...``

Well that`s obvious. You show no knowledge of the historical, social, cultural and political factors concerning blacks (and Hispanics and Italians) in America, hence your gross generalisations and patent untruths. And invoking the name of Michael Jordan doesn`t score you any brownie points.

Shahgul is right. Practically all of the immigrant Asian communities in the US came there already in some position of wealth and privelege. They`ve always had it easier than the blacks.

As to Priya Purewal, it`s a tragedy that such a little girl already has her whole life mapped out for her.

Firstly, I would like to know from people responding to this article as to which category do they lie in - ABCD or non-ABCD, if you will. Although this will be easy to judge from your biased opinions, it would go on to prove a few points that I will make in the rest of my response.

Firstly, most of the articles have one resonating message - desi land is a land of hardships/pain and something dreadful which people wish to run away from. I have heard far more derogatory words used about home land by none other than fellow desi`s. Fellow desi with a difference though. These fellow desi`s ( I shall now refer them as ABCD going forward in this article) have never seen what they are talking about. Its from what they hear. 80% of the ABCD`s I have come across so far have never been to SE Asia! Out of 20% who did, 15% hated it - they probably were anticipating a dream come true vacation. 5% of them enjoyed it as they would enjoy travelling through Albania/Egypt or any other third world country. The point I am trying to make here is - REFRAIN FROM TALKING ABOUT A COUNTRY UNLESS YOU KNOW ABOUT IT! AND KNOWING ABOUT A COUNTRY IS NOT SPENDING A VACATION IN IT!

Trying not to generalize, majority of the ABCDs are soscially dysfunctional!! They are ofcourse American citizens, but they still want to attend Desi functions and hang out with the like. Shunned even by the americans due to the ludicrous dress styles / behavior / mannerisms only community they found solace is with none other than Afro-Americans. Regardless of the education - they try to alienate themselves from the so called ``FOB`s`` because it embarrases them to see some one from the same place as their parents (Did I tell you most of the ABCD`s are embarassed of their parents - accents/languages/dress styles maybe!!). Needless to say, they have absolutely no or minimal original culture left in them.

I can go on with this topic for ever and shall only get more and more scathing in my comments with each statement. However I would refrain myself from doing that. But the point I strongly believe in is - Majority(rule of exceptions apply) of ABCD have no right to consider themselves Desi`s as they are not - their citizenship doesnt say so either. So when next time they address some one F.O.B it should be their parents if at all anyone else.

Re : Zaynab

Few weeks ago a 4 year old girl Priya purewal from Irving, texas was a guest on Jay leno`s show. This little girl is impressive - born in an indian punjabi family, she is the member of a group called ``Mensa``. Her IQ is 170 and the sixth american 4 year old in the high IQ Mensa society. And this little girl already knows what she wants to be - a ``nuerosurgeon``. Her parents are both doctors ( if i remember correctly).

we south asians came to this land of opportunities with a dream. A dream of making it big. A dream to escape ( you can call us cowards) the unbearable ``dreadful images`` of hunger and poverty at ``every street corner`` in our own countries. And what are we ? we are all educated people, we are engineers and doctors and technicians and so on... we neither have the privilege of blonde hair and green eyes nor do we form groups like some black or hispanic or italian mafia. All that we have is our culture and education. And it really hurts to see our kids going in ``yo man! wass` up?`` culture.

By no means i wish to belittle the contributions of African american community. There are numerous great personalities in that community and believe me when I say that I worship Michael jordan. But on the other hand, it is a ``FACT`` that it`s a very voilent and under educated community. I`m sorry, but this is a very sad truth.

America is called the land of immigrants - many different cultures came to this land in search of fortune and found it. Of these the African american community is perhaps the oldest and inspite of all the riches and opportunities around what makes this community so under developed ? A relatively new arrivals like chinese and indians are doing much better. Has it got anything to do with culture? I don`t know...I may not be able to find a reason for that.

South asian community is perhaps 1% of the total population of America. This is reason enough for us to be careful for our future. Only by extraordinary contributions we are going to be noticed, recognized and valued. This is the only way for us because, as I said, we are neither green eyed blondes nor a mafia group.

I don`t have any problems with someone emulating Michael jordan but i do have problems with picking up brawls in night clubs and ``yo man wass` up`` culture.

thanks

Sri

Hassan:

The crowd you dealt with was actually quite reasonable. If you really want to see messed up desis dont look at the ones born here but look at the ones that have immigrated to the States or England, made their wealth (lots of it) and live `happily` in some suburb. Those are the true nightmares!

Also, dealing with other posts, the term ABCD is actually not only offensive but misleading. I find that American born desis have a focus which is very sincere and uncomplicated. Its us immigrants that are the truly confused ones!

Enjoy the land of plenty

Good write up!

I think, however, that this issue has been over

generalized. Human kind has so many shades of

people that it may be a bit problem for me to

accept that we can ever safely rule as to what

kind of American, British, Canadian born desi

people are...

My own understanding is that while many ``First``

generation immigrants face tons of hurdles in

terms of cultural and values shock, and their

inability to adjust instantly with new

performance requirements, etc., most south asians

tend to overstress the importance of education to

the incoming generation. As a result, incoming

generation is generally well educated, is not

under the fear of having to adjust with a totally

different culture, is not carrying the baggage

of old values, and is confident about its future.

It will be a nightmare for many people of first

generation to even think that the sarifices they

are making or have made for their offsprings is

not resulting in a substantial improvem

The rationale used to generalize desi society in the article borders on biases and pre-concieved notions. How can one judge the state of desi community by visiting a desi party of high school teenagers?

Dear Hasan Ahmed:

I commend you for putting your ideas on the internet, though I have some serious reservations about some of your observations.

Your thesis: ``. . . when two rich cultures were brought together, you would get synergies whereby the best qualities of both cultures would be seen in the person.``

Comment: Your thesis has some merit in an abstract sense. Realistically, combining the richness of two or more cultures is an extremely difficult job. Could you please identify some rich aspects of both Pakistani/Indian and American cultures? Now, tell us how these rich aspects could be combined effectively in the context of a society that is both rich and poor (good and bad). More specifically, how would you prepare your children such that they themselves combine the best of the two worlds?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

There is something seriously missing in this article. And I find a lot of contradictions what the writer is saying and doing in this narrative.

``I always firmly believed that when two rich cultures were brought together, you would get synergies whereby the best qualities of both cultures would be seen in the person.``

Did you believe in having this idea applicable to all ? There are people from all kinds of backgrounds and have different mindsets. This was an unrealistic observation.

``Why is it so then that when you meet an average desi, born and brought up in America, you see a dress sense, taste in music, and general appearnace inspired by Afro Americans and regional hatred and arrogance, crookery, and deceit inspired seeking inspiration from the desi culture.``

I suggest that the author needs to thoroughly explore the City & its activities, only that way he will be a good judge of the people from the subcontinent. Oh, and changing venues may not be a bad idea.

Secondly, there is something unique about the AA culture and judging them by the Rap stuff is quite unfair. I personally feel that they are beautiful communicators. And I am not talking about the street-bums around the City or near the Subway Stations. I am talking about the intelligent, mature and well educated beings.

In short, no doubt the different scenarios tell some mindsets but they do not represent the whole community.

A very nice & short commentary of a particular situation.I`m very happy that you have not turned this into a philosophising or insight-seeking theories-laden essay.

This is just how things are,for better or for worse,and is as much Amer,Can, Or Brit as the real stuff(whatever that is;I think its meaningless).

Sometime ago a brownie(desi) was harassed and called a `Paki` by some white-trash goons.The poor guy tried to `teach` them some ettiquette about foreign relations by telling them that he was from India.

Another shove was their reply to him and words to this effect,``what`s the damn difference``.

So:You are what others think of you. This includes you,too.No matter how much good of an d actor you might become,you are still `them`.Jinnah was a glaring example.Know thyself first & always stick to your kind.You`ll win,when the going is good.

A bigoted Brit was looking for some address in downtown London.Nobody could tell him the street he sought.In desperation he asked a ``Sardarji`` who was heading in his direction.

Like all well informed immigrants the ``Sardarji`` very politely & confidenly directed him to the strreet.The bigoted Brit thanked him and after walking a few steps away but within the ``Sardarjis`` earshot,muttered,``Damn foreigners``.

``Saradarji`` turns to his friend an jubliantly said to his friend,`Look,what manners the Britishers have,he praised me by calling me a foreigner!!.`

I will have to agree with temporal.

If you are doing the nightclub scene, that is the kind you will run into.

As far as being prejudiced against African American culture, let me tell you the comments of a black Muslim friend.

Commenting on the kind of Desi crowd that to came to ISNA, he was alarmed at the evident influence of hiphop on desi kids. The chains and the `african walk`.

Surprised by his comment, I asked him ``and why is it wrong to be influenced by African American culture``?

``Any influence which makes you behave contrary to the influences of Islam is bad``.

This is not to mention however that there are ABCDs who are different, I know a few, and they are really nice people. Straightforward and simple!

Hi Farhaj, Zehra and Sikina .....

you know I would answer back to this article

-Yasser Hamdani

I have had the misfortune of havng been associated with Pakistanis of Jersey City .... My ex Girlfriend is from Jinnah Colony Jersey City ... and let me tell hypocricy is big on the characteristics atleast of ABCDs from Jersey City- Yasser Hamdani

Besides... I dont call them desis any more... my friends have given them a new identity.. we call them :`` yo-man`` :)

Chowkwala

Adnan.

who do you think is responsible for this...??? there parents? culture? or themselves?

Chowkwala

Adnan.