Let’s talk about Bollywood

Reply for Sobia Reply #56

Hey Sobia,

Cool it man, Rather than asking Indians, to put their house in order or whatever, I think you are simply displaying arrogance.

All Indians recognize your nation, A man like Vajpayee goes to minar-e-sharif, what else do you want, to get recognized.

All right Indian movies are downright girbbish, simply don`t watch them, if you think so, why make an issue of it.

For your kind information, no Indian in his right senses would even dream to have anything to do with your nation, leave the `K`out of it.

Nobody want`s to break Pakistan, but I guess it is the other way round, it is Pakistan that want`s to break half the world.

Yes we Indians are secular, anything wrong with it, do enlighten us about it.

Hey enjoy life and bring down your hate barometer

sadaf #45,others

``I thought the questions raised in the article were so interesting.. i myself have been wondering about the recent increase in nationalism``

For a meaningful answer, all salient facts have to be considered. For example, I have been patiently waiting for some Pakistani poster to acknowledge that while a few Indian movies have shown Pakistan as enemy country only in the last year or so, Pakistani children have been learning from their textbooks and teachers for the last many decades that India is an enemy country. As I asked on another thread, why the double standard?

Anyway, looking at it from the Indian side, there is no a simple answer to your questions. For a long while in the Indian public mind Indo-Pak relations were relatively in the background. The concept of long overdue peace was what dominated the public mentality. In the recent past, there was a change for the positive or pro-active pre-Lahore.

In spite of detractors like Thackeray, it seemed that there was no percentage in any approach accept a positive one which underplayed differences and emphasized common areas of interest. For eg, India and Pakistan tried to work out a deal to buy Pakistan`s excess power. There were cricket tours. A standing ovation after a match in Madras after which Javed Miandad praised the spectators. There were increased cultural exchanges. Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan had already `maidaan maro-ed` earlier. We read of qawwali troupes and other artistes crossing borders on the Lahore bus. There were Indo-Pak joint TV productions, one example was/is this long running serial on Indian TV (I forget the name) which is a joint Indo-Pak production with Marina Khan in a major role. I remember attending a `friendship concert` here in the US with Ghulam Ali and Anup Jalota (I went to listen to Ghulam Ali). There was even a recent movie where a Pakistani PM is to be assasinated on Indian soil(by his Pakistani detractors) and assorted peacniks prevent it from happening!!

Anyway what I am trying to say is that accompanying a `high` around the time of the Lahore visit, the Indian public got sold on the idea of Indo-Pak detente. However realistic or unrealistic, it was exciting and full of wonderful possibilities, like John McCain. The letdown was then all the more jarring. Such a public mobilization of opinion then had to contend with seeing bodies of dead soldiers being returned home to many farflung areas of India after being killed in Kargil. I guess it was a shocking contrast and the public feels that the situation was precipitated by themselves(Indians) not being jingoistic or realistically paranoid enough to begin with.

Also, even international media is reporting on public collection of money by `jehadis` in Pakistan for holy war against India. There is no such phenomenon in India. The worst even Thackeray has threatened in the past was to go upto the border and fight with swords and tridents :-). No Indian group however rabid has ever talked of crossing over with guns as seems commonly accepted in Pakistan, now. Now, an alert public is surely going to react to these new realities which maynot seem so urgent to those comfortable and safe half a world away. And commercial ventures are going to cash in, any surprise?

My advice to those who have just now been forced to ponder these issues is that you can do two meaningful things(apart from feeling hurt or angry). First make up your mind where you stand with as much responsibility as if you were voting on it. Next, whatever your decision, toward war or peace, attempt to influence events.(Though I guess significant funds already travel back from NRPakistanis to `NGO` outfits at home). Anyway, the sooner there is a correspondence between Pakistani public will and Pakistani government actions, the better it will be. There will be fewer letdowns such as Lahore and Kargil.

Sadhana

Anarayan, Harish3

I am absolutely amazed at the amount of arrogance you Indians have on being `secular`! There are no bounds to your preening, is there? Pakistan does not NEED a reason to exist...it exists and that`s that...the sooner you get it into your minds, the better. It has been over 52 years and you STILL can`t cope with the idea that we ARE here and we`ll stay here, right next to you. You haven`t been able to do anything to destroy us and you won`t. What Pakistan`s internal affairs are are it`s business and how many forces are trying to break it up in the middle are of no importance in the point I`m trying to make. I suggest you tackle your issues before butting in ours.

Re: #48 Friend, what`s wrong, honey? Don`t have anything else to critisize or is this a special brand of `humour` I`m dealing with?

``Please put Pakistan in order. After that talk about kargil, kashmir, kanyakumari or any other k in the world. Please sensor the dresses of your own television anouncesors. Leave contents of Indian cinema to people for whom it is made``.

I suppose India is `in order`? On the one hand you guys claim that the Indian cinema, which is sooooo `mahaan`, is for everyone and that it transends all boundaries and on the other hand, you`re saying ``Leave contents of Indian cinema to people for whom it is made``...whom IS it made for? The Indians? If that`s true that the whole concept of communication is destroyed...you can`t expect to make films (and low class ones at that) and not expect criticism! GET a life!

Re: #48 Friend, what`s wrong, honey? Don`t have anything else to critisize or is this a special brand of `humour` I`m dealing with?

``Please put Pakistan in order. After that talk about kargil, kashmir, kanyakumari or any other k in the world. Please sensor the dresses of your own television anouncesors. Leave contents of Indian cinema to people for whom it is made``.

I suppose India is `in order`? On the one hand you guys claim that the Indian cinema, which is sooooo `mahaan`, is for everyone and that it transends all boundaries and on the other hand, you`re saying ``Leave contents of Indian cinema to people for whom it is made``...whom IS it made for? The Indians? If that`s true that the whole concept of communication is destroyed...you can`t expect to make films (and low class ones at that) and not expect criticism! GET a life!

Hi fellas,

Nice to see something rather than the usual indo/pak stuff, pretty refreshing indeed.

With regards to the question being posed by the author.

//That Indian movies oflate have been becoming anti Pak or whatever.

I would like to speak statistics in this matter, well there are almost 350 Hindi movies produced in a year and if you take the tamil and southern industry into the question, the number of movies coming out becomes around 700. Now out of these 700 movies, the number of movies that even have the word Pakistan is not more than 5. i.e. 0.71428%.

Hey man that is pretty decent, definitely this figure is not more than 1%. Half the Indians don`t know where Pakistan is; they are too busy surviving, to worry about Pakistan. Now we must see the latest movies coming out in the perspective of what really has gone between the two nations in the last 1-year or so. Cinema is connected to our real environment in some ways and definitely cannot shield itself from the real events. Why blame Indian movies how bout PTV, man you guys pack up some Indian bashing in your news.

The best part was blocking Indian flags being shown during the latest indo-pak-aust series, which was laughable to say the least; none of us could understand either the reason or motive behind such nonsense.

Nor are we perfect and am sure nor are you. So don`t blame, try and understand the events in their correct perspective.

This anti Pakistan phenomenon, is quite new in India, it is something, for which the credit must be given to some really farsighted and knowledgeable leaders like Gen. Mushraff, Benazir Bhutto. The problem is that except for, Vajpayee and company speaking against Pakistan in the recent past(Mind you he is in politics for almost 50 years now), I don`t think Pakistan was ever an election issue in India as is the case in Pakistan. I don`t think any Indians like it when your leaders like Prime Minister speak language like having a thousand year of jihad against India.

Collecting money openly for buying bullets to kill Indian soldiers, just remember that the Indian solider has a mother and a sister.

The point I am trying to make is that like anything, peace is also a two way game, ``Do kadam aap chale, hum 4 chaar kadam chalne ko tayar hain``.

So in this volatile environment what else do people expect from Bollywood, remember bollywood is Indian and will and shall always show the Indian culture, and Indian prespective, that is true of the American Film industry too, and would be true of Pakistani industry also.

I saw this ``Bakra kisto pea``, Will any Muslim tolerate if somebody makes fun of his religion, the way Hindu rituals were belittled in the drama (Although it was funny). But the point is in India nobody even cared, and took it in the right spirit. That is true of India in general, It is a land where tempers die down quickly, provided general Mushraff keeps quite for sometime, till he launches his next brainwave, I do for see, the name Pakistan being blocked from bollywood movies, till offcourse the next brainwave of the master.

Hey come on man let`s all get out of this indo-pak business and live it up. Wonder when lahoris would drive down to see a Hindi movie at the Priya Complex. And off course I wonder when I can drive down to Islamabad to watch some good Theatre.

Perhaps never....................

Mannyd:#50

Thanks for clarification.

Nothing against azmi.The only thing I resent is the double standard by these characters in the entertainment industry...be they hindu or muslim.What has vulgarity & breaking the sex taboos got to do with `advancement` & being `modern` and then trying to vlaim that they as hindus & muslims have brought glory to Hinduism & Islam.

A Bhand,meeerasi should not be looked down upon or looked UPTO .They should be recognised for their entertainment value only--without being glorified & glamourised.

Would you apply the same standard of recognition if your (or mine) brother or sister performs such indecencies in public life,both on & off screen,and also tells you that he/she has brought honour to Hinduism(or Islam)? If your answer is what I know it will be then you (& I) are almost 99.9% of the people of the WORLD with such unsung values who have been shadowed by the glare & dazzle of a few handful exhibitionists.

Speaking out against such should be fashionable now!

Sameer J.B. #37, #38

Sameer Sahib,

Thanks for the two informative posts. After your post and Amit Sahib`s description I had to go out and rent the Mughle-Azam DVD. Prithvi Raj Kapoor played Akbar with great verve and in my opinion stole the show. My wife started crying early enough and had a throbbing headache by the time the movie ended, but she still rates Mother India higher on her cry-o-meter.

Please explain one of the items in the article if you know. Was Lachhu Maharaj`s father associated with the same Nawab of Oudh, that F_K sahib mentioned about `` Babul Mori..`` composition? There seem to be quite a few years apart in the two events.

Amit Sahib,

What was the movie, where Dev Anand sings `` Jayen t jayen Kaha?``. It might havee been Shankar jai Kisan or S. D. Burman.

F_K sahib,

Thanks for the trivia. I am relieved you approve of Mian Naushad Ali. I was not requesting your thunderbolts but merely expressing trepidition. Your anger and Lord work in mysterious ways. I was surprised by the Iqbal`s poems on the other threads. Thanks for the translation.

Hope you find in the magnanimity of your heart to forgive the Azami family.

Re: harish3 Reply #: 39

Dear harish,

``Everyday that India survives as a secular, multi-religious, multi-ethnic democracy, isn`t this an affront to Pakistani dignity? It undermines the very reasoning for Pakistan`s existence -- the idea that people of different religions cannot peacefully coexist.``

``For the moment you admit that Muslims in India might have the same opportunity for prosperity that all other Indians have, you take away the reasoning for Pakistan. And this is why we, as two nations, can NEVER be friends``.

Excellent Sir! I had reached the same conclusion some time back and was wondering if anyone else saw it that way.

You will not get an answer for your question from any Pakistani. A serious answer that is. There is a limit upto which they are prepared to bare their psyche. Don`t go further. What you pointed out is the great UNSAID TRUTH.

Words one speaks are a window into the mind. I am yet to see one single Pakistani appreciate the lifestyle and achievements of any Indian muslim. Even Bilal Ahmed breaks down at this point. His words near this LIMIT are carefully measured, cautious. Why is Abdul Kalam holding India`s most sensitive defense position ? Oh! he`s an exceptional case.

(I make no apologies. If this is not relevant, what is).

Sobia #46,

``Amit, would love to stay away from such topics but unfortunately, it`s not all dependent on me...EVERYTHING seems to come down to it...I mean, for Chrissake, we`re talking about movies here...why bring in Kargil and Kasmir? I would love to talk of anything BUT! :o)``

oooo, cho chweet! would love to .. o-o cho cute,

Read this article again ``But the kind of patriotism that I am seeing in Bollywood films these days reminds me of the days when American action films used the Islamic terrorist as the villain in their plots over and over again. The villain of the day in Bollywood movies is Pakistan. I am not disputing the truth or falseness behind what is shown. I am merely saying that the theme of Pakistan as the “enemy” is touted repeatedly in Indian cinema today. Anyone with any sense of nationalistic pride would be insulted if their country is repeatedly accused of heinous crimes in the cinema that they watch. But I wonder if anyone in the Indian film industry really cares.``

Please put Pakistan in order. After that talk about kargil, kashmir, kanyakumari or any other k in the world. Please sensor the dresses of your own television anouncesors. Leave contents of Indian cinema to people for whom it is made.

Indian Cinema is something which can be used to promote friendship and goodwill amongst the general people of the two countries. Indian Movies are big in Pakistan as well as Pakistani community abroad.

But Pakistanis both home and abroad shouldnot compromise the just struggle of Kashmiri Muslims who are fighting against half a million Murderers (Indian army) in Kashmir.

Friendship but not at the cost of principles!

Amit, would love to stay away from such topics but unfortunately, it`s not all dependent on me...EVERYTHING seems to come down to it...I mean, for Chrissake, we`re talking about movies here...why bring in Kargil and Kasmir? I would love to talk of anything BUT! :o)

SmeerJB:#37

Thanks for your informative posts,especially the account about various locales of Lahore.I was not aware of koocha meerasian and kanjarwaal.

What is the name of Saeed Malik`s book? Are there any other books you know on these subject.

A tidbit you might enjoy(or might have heard):

John Milton in his Paradise Lost mentions that when Adam was sent to earth,God told him to go to Lahore & Agra.The two most glorious cities in the world of those days.

Such was the glory!

Wassalaam.

Futema, well-written article. I absolutely agree with you on all accounts.

Harish Re:#39

``But at the state level, nation-to-nation, yes, of course, Pakistan is India`s enemy. It must be so.``

I don`t understand the Indian mind...at one point you people harp about how Pakistanis are paranoid that all Indians hate Pakistan and on the other hand you say that yes, Pakistan and India are enemies and `must` remain so!!! Confuse me, why don`t you?!??!

But I must say, it`s `nice` to see such sentiments on this forum. It`s about time we drop this so called intellectual mantle of `hindu-muslim bhia bhai` (or in this case Indians-Pakistani bhai bhai`) and realize that as long as Indians keep the debate hot on Kargil, things are never going to improve. MUST we start on Kargil again? Because if we do, Siachin is not far behind...!

A question:

A section of Lahore, near the Badhshahi Mosque and Minar-e-Pakistan, was a residence of religious scholars (mostly of the shiite sect). Upon conquering Lahore, the Mahraja Ranjit Singh, got rid of the ulema and converted the mosques into horse stables. The houses were converted into prostitution dens. The section of Lahore is called Heera Mandi.

Is my verbal source correct in this history of Heera Mandi?

Well there are quite a few films mentioned by others which I will make a point to watch. I enjoy watching the Indian classics. Compared to the present day commercial elephants, the classics reaffirm my hope that Indian cinema has potential. Naturally most of us seem to have a dislike for these commercial elephants- I too dislike them (the only exceptions being Govinda`s redundant care-free comical roles which I always grab and watch- please don`t frown).

But about something discussed in the previous replies. The Muslim portrayls in films. I watched `Sarfrosh` recently and found interesting the portrayal of a couple of muslim roles. Nasirudin Shah represented the left-over classical aristocratic muslim bitter over the present and his capacity for sensitivity varied from extreme brutality to being soft as wax. Though `Sarfrosh` was a commercial movie, Nasirudin`s role embodied elements of what Ghalib talked about in his poetry with the fact that now is the 21st century. NS`s role was refreshing (though maybe overlooked). On the other hand, there was the role of another muslim, who was a policeman, and was forced into feeling that he had to prove his `Indianness`. The insecurity complex I guess plays a part in Indian psyche(with variations). Anyway, I thought the portrayls were interesting- factual or not- they were relevant and showed the versatility of even commercial Indian cinema.

Onto the Pakistan scene. Has anyone noticed how the earlier burst of over-commercialization has dimmed and the dramas are getting better again- particularly with regards to character development. In `Manoos Ajnabi`, the main character (Faisal Jan I think) is a willing customer of the `fraudiya` set-up and he is the hero. In another, Nabil plays the corrupt beaurocrat without a heart. There have been dramas made before with the `baddies` as lead roles, but they made the `baddies` a victim of society and out for revenge(i.e. Abid Ali in `Samandar`) or these baddies happened to be born in a `bad` family (i.e. Chaudhary Hashmat in `Waris`- probably the best developed character from the Pakistani drama scene). Today`s dramas `youths` are not victims of society but are very much part of mass society. Senses of morality are not upheld but questioned. But maybe I`m looking too hard into it.