Let’s talk about Bollywood

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The Bollywood Connection

INDIA`S FILMS MIXING MELODRAMA AND MUSIC REACH ACROSS THE BORDERS TO SILICON VALLEY

By Lisa Tsering

Special to the Mercury News

You won`t find Bollywood on any map.

Bollywood is India`s huge, Hindi-language film industry, which produces more than 1,000 films a year. The word is a masala mix of Bombay and Hollywood, just as the films are a spicy blend of melodrama, romance, fights, patriotism and gorgeously choreographed musical numbers.

These days, the West has started to wake up to India`s film industry. ``Lagaan,`` a masala masterpiece about love, taxes and cricket, was nominated early this year for an Academy Award for best foreign film. (It was re-released May 31 in Bay Area theaters.)

Last year`s ``Moulin Rouge`` featured a glorious closing number based on the Hindi film song ``Chamma Chamma.`` Mira Nair`s current art-house hit, ``Monsoon Wedding,`` borrows liberally from the Bollywood songbook. In addition, ``Bombay Dreams,`` Andrew Lloyd Webber`s long-awaited stage collaboration with acclaimed film director Shekhar Kapur (``Elizabeth``) and Indian pop maestro A.R. Rahman, is scheduled to open June 19 in London.

In the Bay Area, with its large population of Indians and Indo-Americans, the roots of Bollywood run deep. As if to confirm its appeal here, 28-year-old screen superstar Hrithik Roshan -- dubbed by GQ as ``the most famous person you`ve never heard of`` -- will make his first Bay Area appearance tonight in ``Heartthrobs,`` a live, all-Bollywood dance spectacular, featuring five other Indian film stars (Karisma Kapoor, Kareena Kapoor, Arjun Rampal, Aaftab Shivdasani and Raageshwari) at the Network Associates Coliseum in Oakland.

Roshan became a star overnight with the 2000 release of ``Kaho Na Pyar Hai`` (``Tell Me You Love Me``). Described in a magazine story as ``a lithe, virile and very Indian version of Elvis Presley,`` he often co-stars with Kareena Kapoor, whose older sister Karisma is also a well-known actress and dancer.

Indeed, to be a star in India, you`ve got to be able to dance -- really dance -- to a heavenly mix of sitar, earthy Punjabi Bhangra folk music, tabla and shamelessly shrill violins behind lusty vocals, lip-synced by the actors.

Local moviegoers flock to see their stars at Fremont`s Naz 8 Cinemas, the nation`s first and biggest multiplex movie theater dedicated to Bollywood films. They also can go to the six-screen Indian Movie Center in Sunnyvale, which tends toward South Indian and edgier independent films produced by the Indian diaspora.

Not surprisingly, the Bollywood influence can be traced in the other direction as well. A whole genre of Bollywood films is popping up with story lines and characters straight out of Milpitas, and audiences in India can`t get enough.

``Silicon Valley is home to so many Indians,`` says Asha ``Revathy`` Menon, a director whose debut feature film, ``Mitr: My Friend`` (2001), focused on the culture conflicts of Indians settled in the valley.

``Just think -- in one out of 100 families in India, there`s at least one son, daughter or brother working here. Indians are definitely interested in the stories of immigrants settled in America,`` Menon said.

Dev Anand, a matinee idol-turned-director, sets a portion of his next film, ``Love at Times Square,`` in a high-tech firm here and even makes a cameo as an archetypal Silicon Valley millionaire.

For Indians in Silicon Valley, most of Bollywood`s lusciously garish movies offer a sense of familiarity that`s as soothing as kheer, the sweet, creamy rice pudding. The basic story line: Boy meets girl from a different religion or social class. They bicker and then fall madly in love. They profess their passion in a song, which may be sung in a Swiss meadow, a Rajasthani palace, atop a glacier, in front of the Great Pyramids of Giza.

Of course, boy and girl face complications: arranged marriage, mistaken identity or an ex-boyfriend, an automobile accident, a death in the family or threats by hired goons. Optional ingredients include a temple scene, an elaborate wedding with a cast of hundreds, a techno-disco club number or India`s national anthem. Three hours and six songs later, the lovers work things out.

Bollywood movies usually show a tidied-up picture of India. Director Yash Chopra, king of Bollywood romances, says his films are successful in the United States ``because they show a side of Indian culture that makes people proud to be Indian.``

According to Menon, the reason Indian-Americans prefer India-lite on-screen is simple: They`re caught in a time warp.

``They keep a picture of the India they left long back,`` she said. ``There are very big, important changes in India, but their perceptions have stagnated. They remember only the time that they left India.``

All this might make you think Bollywood movies are strictly for Indians and Indian-Americans. But the films` curvy heroines and he-man heroes are worshiped in Russia, China, Afghanistan, Egypt, Israel and Britain, too.

And the films` mainstream influence -- including recognition at major film festivals -- and the advent of high-quality, subtitled DVDs have raised the profile further. Now Bollywood and its stars are making a place for themselves in America, too.



San Jose Mercury

ABCD

`ABCD,` about an East Indian American family, is one of several ethnic films hoping for a wider appeal.

By JON MATSUMOTO, SPECIAL TO THE LOS ANGELES TIMES

When Krutin Patel co-wrote the script to his film ``ABCD`` in 1993, the most prominent East Indian in American pop culture was probably Apu from the television series ``The Simpsons.`` Eight years later, that animated convenience store clerk is still the most recognizably East Indian character in American television and film.

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/printedition/calendar/la-000094888nov29.story

The paucity of East Indian American representation in the popular arts in this country is a primary reason why Patel feels so passionately about his independently made drama, which captures the intriguing dynamics of an East Indian American family.

``ABCD,`` which opens Friday at selected theaters, is one of a handful of new films involving rarely seen immigrant American characters and scenarios. ``The Debut,`` which is currently in theaters, and ``American Adobo,`` which is slated to open in Los Angeles on Jan. 23, are both small movies reflecting Philippine American life. A coming-of-age film about a Philippine American teenager, ``The Debut`` opened in Los Angeles in early October and has grossed more than $1 million. Home to large Philippine American populations, the Los Angeles and San Francisco areas have accounted for 90% of the film`s box-office success, according to its distributor, 5 Card Productions.

All three of these films deal in some way with ethnic minority immigrants and their children trying to reconcile traditional cultural values with very different American attitudes.

In ``ABCD,`` two grown children react differently to the expectations of their loving but very traditional Indian-born mother (Madhur Jaffrey). Older brother Raj (Faran Tahir) tries to conform to her wishes. He has a very respectable job as a Manhattan accountant and is engaged to a traditional Indian woman he does not entirely love. His younger sister Nina (Sheetal Sheth) rebels against conservative Indian mores by dating non-Indian men and by embracing a sexually promiscuous lifestyle.

Having emigrated from India to the U.S. at age 8, Patel is familiar with the difficulty of trying to straddle the line between two cultures. Like many men with Indian immigrant parents, he felt the pressure to land a white-collar job. To appease his parents` concerns about his desire to enter the uncertain field of filmmaking, he majored in both film and finance at New York University. While he hopes to transition into filmmaking full time, Patel currently works in the marketing department at the Food Network in New York.

Ironically, previous screenings of the film have indicated that ``ABCD`` is unlikely to be fully embraced by the Indian American community, particularly by that segment which espouses conservative cultural values.

``The strongest reaction to the film has come, believe it or not, from non-Indian Americans,`` remarks Patel, who also directed and co-produced ``ABCD.`` ``There are those in the Indian American community who don`t want to see its dirty laundry hung in public. The portrayal of characters like Nina [makes them uncomfortable]. They want to keep their heads in the sand. In the Indian community the film will raise a few eyebrows. That`s a good thing because there will be debate about it. We tend to be a community that doesn`t communicate in regard to some of these harder issues.``

Nina is the film`s most complex character. She rebels against the sexual conservatism of her ethnic culture. Yet her contrary ways also keep her from finding the emotional intimacy in her romantic relationships that will lead to happiness. When she finds herself falling in love with an Indian man she reluctantly meets on a date arranged by her mother, she is disinclined to commit to the relationship.

Patel says the Nina character has sparked much debate during question-and-answer sessions following screenings of the film. Some Indian Americans have found her to be an inaccurate representation of their people. Others have found her to be very real.

Patel recalls, ``One of my memories of showing this at a film festival was a British Indian girl telling me, `That`s my life up there on screen.` I was like, `Wow, thank you.` Nina really translated to her experience.``

``ABCD,`` whose relatively polished look belies its modest $200,000 budget, couldn`t have been made without the financial help of Patel`s friends and relatives.

``After my parents came to America, they helped other Indian immigrants who subsequently came to this country,`` explains Patel, who spent about five years raising money to make his film. ``Some 30 years later I needed financial backing and they turned around and gave me that help.`` Only a few of the Indian American investors asked to read the script.

Moviegoing is hugely popular in India. But Patel believes there would be little interest there in a serious-minded film about an Indian American family. Bollywood, as the Indian film industry is known, generally produces escapist melodramas.

The hope is that films like ``ABCD`` and ``American Adobo`` will find audiences among independent film lovers and in specific minority communities in the increasingly multiethnic U.S. Patel says there are sizable Indian populations in most major American cities. ``ABCD`` is slated to open in 15 to 20 markets in North America.

Non-Indian audiences may not fully understand a few of the cultural subtleties of the film and some viewers may not empathize with Raj`s possible encounter with workplace discrimination. But Patel feels he has fashioned a movie that has mainstream allure.

``I always wanted to make sure that the movie appealed beyond Indian people,`` Patel insists. ``As we started showing it at festivals so many people would say to me, `I`m not Indian, but so much of this film I can relate to my own family.` That`s when I realized that the film really has a universal appeal. My writing and directing style is going for a certain realism. If you make characters that are human and real they will transcend ethnic lines.``

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Read Wasim Akram instead of Wasim Malik in my last post.

After reading post #118, I decided to watch Hrithik Roshan`s movie, ``Kaho Na Pyar Hay``. It is a so-so movie, nothing spectacular about it. I think the so many Pakistani are liking this kid has to do with his resemblance with cricketer Wasim Malik during his earlier years. Hrithik Roshan does seem to carry the genes of his father and would not last long because of expected baldness in few years.

The best movie of the year so far is really ``Shaheed Udham Singh``. Not only you learn some real history of the Ghadar Party in Punjab but also enjoy the best dance of the year by Juhi Chawla. Thanks Juhi--you are still very pretty.

Indian movies that depict Pakistan as an ``Evil Empire``, is playing to a audiance in rural-india. Because thats where bollywood movies make most of their money. I really enjoy a movie where the main character is a non-hindu. These types of movies really push the social-tolerance envelope a little bit further. Thanks for letting me speak my mind.

Hrithik Roshan fever hits Pakistan too

``There is a great demand for him. Be it ladies or the men, all of them demand Roshan.``

Wednesday, March 29 (Karachi):

What has kept all political issues in the background and emerged with a sudden burst of energy in Karachi is the runaway Bollywood hit Kaho Na Pyar Hai. Starring Hrithik Roshan, the film has made him a superstar across the border as well. Video distributors in the Karachi city say that the film has been a complete hit and the sales have been tremendous.

There are several signs of the growing fan following of the film`s hero. Posters of Hrithik Roshan are plastered all over the place, Urdu film magazines are putting him on their cover, and cassettes of Kaho Na Pyar Hai are being sold faster than they can be stocked. A magazine seller said, ``There is a great demand for him. Be it ladies or the men, all of them demand Roshan.``

It is Hrithik`s dancing that seems to have struck a chord with the Pakistanis. Couples in the city have taken inspiration from the leading pair in the film and incorporated the same dance steps in their parties.

However, some still remain faithful to Sharukh Khan and Salman Khan, the nineties superstars. They say that Hrithik Roshan is new and his performance in subsequent films remains to be seen. For them, Shahrukh Khan is still the best.

Shankar: The movie industry in Pakistan was very pro-Z. A. Bhutto and his PPP during the seventies and Zia did not hated anything more than PPP supporters. Moreover it was a period of mediocrity of the movies and people were losing interest in the Urdu movies in particular. On top of that there was a mini-boom in the real estate market in the cities due to remittances from the Gulf States and many theatre owners found it more profitable to tore down the theatre on the prime real estate in the big cities and converted them to shopping centers and apartment complexes.

Pakistan movie industry never matched the success and quality of indian hindi movies except for the earlier years of independent Pakistan. Moreover, the society always looked at the people in the movies and music with disdain, almost as an outcast and termed them names like kanjars and mirasis. No entertainment or other industry can survive without the public support whose profit base is predominently domestic.

In the absence of any real competition, it is difficult to allow indian movies in the Pakistani theatres because it will cause a profit flow in one direction only. It is only possible if there is some sort of compensation worked out in a trade deal. In the current highly polarized environment, it will even be risky for the distributors and theatre owners to show indian movies. Lets hope for better and peaceful times.

Sameer JB

Many thanks for the reply.

Why did Zia ul Haq ruin the Pakistani film industry? As it has been pointed out, films can be a major foreign exchange earner, not to mention give honest employment to thousands. In addition, it brings India more goodwill abroad than any damn foreign policy initiative by the govt.

I think the greatest contribution that muslims have given to the Indian culture is in the field of arts--films included. The same pool of talent is available in Pakistan as well. Singers like Noor Jehan, Nusrat Fateh ali Khan & Junoon were enthusiastically recieved by Indians. It generates a lot of goodwill between our two countries. I am not sure of this, but is there a similar reciprocity on the part of Pakistan?

Is it legal for Pakistanis to watch Indian films on video? Or is the law in name only & such activities are allowed with a wink & a nod by the authorities?

Hopefully Clinton will force our leaders to start talking to each other. This stupidity has gone long enough. I think the public on both sides should pressure our respective leaders to lift the ban on films. Of course anti-Pak films like Pukar should be banned by Pakistan. The same can be done for anti-Indian films by India.

I`ll bet you if Indian producers eye the Pakistani market, they will think twice about making films like Pukar. The same can be said about Pakistani producers. India is a huge market & getting bigger still.

The bigger issue than films actually is free trade between our 2 countries. I am hoping that one day S.Asia will have a ``NAFTA``. This business of one market dominating another is pure nonsense. The US has a much bigger market & GDP than Canada. But is the latter suffering with NAFTA?

Ironic, but true---if the post cold war era has taught us anything; the best way to get people & countries together is pure capitalistic greed! :)

Shankar: It is probably not true that Pakistanis have more knowledge about Bollywood although they do have more knowledge about Urdu poetry. The Pakistani movie industry has been in disarray since the time of Zia Ulhaq and it has created a market for Indian movies on videos. They are easily accessable and affordable in the urban centers of Pakistan. Despite the current boom in the Indian economy due to liberalization and the IT industry, the city life in Pakistan is very comparable with major Indian cities, if not better due to the matters related to disproportionate income distribution as well as the past remittances from the middle-eastern countries. They can easily afford their evenings watching Indian movie.

The posts at this board, at least in my case, reflect information extraction from a number of websites, mostly for the sake of interacting. Most of the material about Roshan, Naushad and Noorjehan was lifted from other websites. Unlike most academic knowledge, only small portion of such information is actually reained in the memory, rest is out of sight--out of mind stuff.

My knowlege about Hindi movies is very limited, so this is the first time I ventured to this post.

What stuck me is the encyclopaedic knowledge that so many Pakistanis have about Hindi movies!!

I was under the impression that they have been banned in Pakistan for several decades now. Are all the Pakistanis who have opined here live outside Pakistan? You seem to know more about Indian movies than many Indians I know!

Maybe my comment is extermely naieve; well , but then I AM extremely naieve about such matters. I`m hoping some of my Pakistani bretheren would be kind enough to have the patience to educate me:)

Re: Sadhana #110

``blood-and-sweat second-in-command who may or may not want to marry his daughter/son into the hero/heroines` family``

How could I have missed that one! Good catch! This is again built for either Jeewan or Prem Chopra.

Re: Veeresh #111

``as they rank 10th or worse in a listing of other villains in Indian movies``

A clarification here... the list was roughly chronological and not at all not based on merit. I don`t want to offend Pakistani sentiments here, even with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek! :)

Sadhana: The song, ``tum agar mujhko na chaho to koi baat mahin....`` is from movie ``Dil Hi To Hai`` by Sahir/ Roshan combo whereas ``Rang aur noor ki baraat....`` is from movie ``Ghazal`` by Sahir/ Madan Mohan combo. It appears to be written for a failed lover who is accepting his defeat at the heroin`s wedding, typical of many movies.

Anyway, here is something about Sufism, from Sahir`s poetry.

When he talked about the fundamentals of sufism in...Barsaat Ki Raat / Roshan:

ishq aazaad hai, hindu na musalmaan hai ishq

aap hi dharm hai, aur aap hi imaan hai ishq

Allah aur Rasool ka farmaan ishq hai

yaani Hadees ishq hai, Quraan ishq hai

Gautam ka aur Maseeh ka armaan ishq hai

Ye qaaynaat jism hai, aur jaan ishq hai

ishq Sarmad, Ishq hi Mansoor hai

ishq Moosaa, Ishq Koh-e-toor hai

khaq ko but, aur but ko devtaa kartaa ishq

intehaa ye hai ke banday ko Khudaa kartaa hai ishq!

So now we have a fix on this vexatious problem, too, of Pakistani people as villians in Indian movies, it is quite clear by a jury of about a 100 people that even our villians are better than Pakistani people, another oxymoron, as they rank 10th or worse in a listing of other villians in Indian movies. To anybody who sees Indian movies, it should be as clear as khadi that our politicians are better villians than any other type.

Frankly, however, the Pakis can have our politicians, if they want them, I guess. Nawaz must be lonely?

veeresh #103

As far as I`m concerned, be my guest. Just send me tickets to the premiere.. :-)

the happy one #105, #106

Right on the mark!

Adding to SameerJB`s corrupt cop, the slimy sleazy Munshi or blood-and-sweat second-in-command who may or maynot want to marry his daughter/son into the hero/heroines` family.

One guess about the use of Urdu in courtroom scenes is that it was the language of business, law and administration before Independence in the Hindi belt and still may be the language of law? I know previous generations in my family used Urdu in business/legal documents.

About Hollywood stereotypes, sure, even their trailers are stereotypical. Count the number of Hollywood trailers which have the blood-pounding intonation `Only One Man ...`,`One Man...`, `Only One Woman ...`(less common)

SameerJB #109

About Roshan, it seems after `Barsaat Ki Raat`, people would go to see movies just because Roshan was listed as music director. I think there was a movie `Qawaali ki Raat` made just as a showcase for him, though I`m not 100% sure.

About `Gazal`, I don`t know if it is the same movie as you mention, how about `Rang aur noor ki baraat kise pesh karoo`n` with the line `maine jazbaat nibhaaye hain usoolo`n ki jagah`? Pretty subversive stuff, now :-)

Sadhana

Mannyd: Roshan has been long dead. Here is something I found about him on the internet.

Roshan was born in GujraNwala on July 14, 1917. He got his music education in Lucknow with Ustaad Alaauddiin Khan and Manahar Barve. He was associated with AIR, Delhi as an artist and instrumentalist for many years before joining the movie industry. He died on November 16, 1967.

Three of his famous movies are Barsat ki Raat, Tajmahel, Dil hi to hain. He has given great music to many many songs. But no song is as famous as the ``Na to karawaN ki talash hain``. Taj Mahal with Pradeep Kumar and Beena Roy was watchable only because of songs like ``Paav chu lene do phulo ko inaayat hogi`` and ``Jo vada kiya wo nibhana parhee ga``. One of his memorable music is for Sahir’s Ghazal, ``Tum agar mujhe na chaho to koyi baat nahin--ghair ko chaho gee to muskkal ho gee``. May be the poet is threatening honor killing? Just kidding!!!

The Happy One: Ba-Mushaqqat means ``with hard labor``. You must have seen, in the movies, many prisoners working in the fields or breaking stone. That is ba-mushaqqat. Another memorable corrupt politician role is in the movie ``Inqilab`` where Amitabh Bacchan as a good police officer guns down all the politicians. Another typical vilaina are police officers and one of the best depiction is in a recent Punjabi movie ``Mahaul Theek Hai`` by Jaspal Bhatti. It is worth watching.

London`s famed Madam Tussaud`s museum announced its decision to create its first ever Bollywood star in wax.

Museum spokeswoman Diane Moon yesterday said: ``Bollywood stars enjoy the same international icon status as the biggest in Hollywood. However, we haven`t yet made a decision about which star we will approach.``

Acknowledging the audience-pulling power of the Indian film industry, she said, ``We are currently seeking advice from a selection of Bollywood pundits to come up with a shortlist of candidates.``

The public will then be given a chance to vote on the final choice for the wax figure, which will cost 30,000 pounds

Re: Sadhana

You might like this one... this is how a judgement is read

Tamaam bayaanaat.... Moka-e-vardaat per paaye gaye tamaam saboot.... aur muljeem ke ekbal-e-julm ko madday-nazar rakhte hooay... Yeh adaalat ees nateejay per pahoNchi hai ki... Dafaa teen so doe aur dafaa teen so bayalles tazeerat-e-Hind ke tahet... Muljeem ko Katl-e-aam ke julm me Bees saal sakht-e-kaid baa-mushakkat karrar di jaati hai.

Do you have any theories on why verdicts are read in Urdu? Also Ive been to several court sessions and hearings in India. Nothing really sounds works or looks like the typical movie courtroom. Theyve probably been using the same set at Filmistan for all shootings thus far. Like any thing else, the court scene in a Hindi movie has its own rules, syntax & sequence. Its all the same, very predictable and nothing to do with realism.

And BTW, what does `Baa-mushakkat` mean?

Top 10 Villain types

Every thing in the Hindi movie industry follows trends. Somebody comes up with something successful that seems to touch a chord with the masses. It could be a tune, a lyric, a plot, an actor, a situation, an animal, an inanimate object, a deity, an actress, a line, a comedian, a type of villain, anything... generally referred to as a `formula`. The society at large is always in a certain state defined by the times and if a commercial movie maker wants to rake it in he would have to find a way to put a finger on the pulse of the society at just the right time. All formulas have their contextuallity in time. They work briefly and then they get over worked and something fresher had to be invented. Those are the rules.

The character of the bad guy is no oddity and follows the same rules as any other ingredient of the formula. Following is my roughly chronological list of top 10 bad guy trends that I can remember.

1. Evil Landlord:

Feudalism was rampant. The evil landlord theme struck a chord with the masses. Scenes like the landlord`s ``saaNp kaa saMpola`` Chhotaa Thaakur riding into town with his buddies asking Raamdin to send his little Chhamia to the Haweli that night characterized the oppression subjected upon the feudal subjects. This would then translate into the scene where the Chammia is chased thru the Haweli and ends up into the Thakur`s bedroom, gets backed up all the way to the window and promptly turns around and jumps.

Prime example: Cant think of one....Any suggestions?

2. Daaku:

A more stark version of the evil landlord. This was primarily due to the rural market gaining tremendously in importance and also based partly on reality due to the notoriety achieved by real life Daakus in Chambal valley. Different versions of the Daaku ensued... the Robin Hood touch could be applied with ease and so could the Mexican bad guy from the westerns. The latter resulted in the most successful movie of all time `Shollay`. Speaking of shollay.. what a movie, huh? And the casting! Who would have thought that the casting of Sanjeev Kumar & Amjad Khan would overshadow that of Bacchhan, Dharmendra & HemaMalini.

Prime example: Amjad Khan`s Gabbar

3. Evil Industrialist:

The more sophisticated version of the evil landlord. By now the nation was well and truly immersed into the ``Jai Jawaan Jai Kissan`` mentality and this was fully exploited by filmmakers. Especially Rajkapur who took the socialist cause and married it with the Charlie Chaplin`s tramp and played on both the `tough times` and the `proletariat unite` themes. These movies and other works of popular culture during these days, reflected the fact that in India it was virtuous to be poor and evil to be rich. Only in the post Manmohan Singh era have we finally seen the fading of this attitude.

Prime example: K.N. Singh`s many roles

4. Gold Smuggler:

These days were of strict state control on all kinds of trade. The gold shortage brought about this allure and mystique about gold biscuits. How innocent must the nation be at that time that movie after movie showed the absolute baddest dude to be somebody who broke trade tariff & octroi laws! But this mild badness gave rise to the subtly comic villain. Embodied by Ajit whose character alone gave rise to a joke cult and about a gazillion web sites and joke posts. In interest of all concerned I shall refrain from digging into my vast reserve of Ajit jokes.

Prime example: Ajit`s Loyan (was it Hamid Ali?)

5. Megalomaniac Super Evil dude:

This character was probably generated due to fear of a military takeover and India`s long history of evil insiders collaborating with outside conquerors for a shot at the coveted `puppet ruler` spot, but its also a popular bad guy in movies across the globe perfectly parodied by Mike Meyer`s Dr. Evil.

Prime Example: Amrish Puri`s Mogambo

6. Evil Minister/ Evil younger brother/ Evil uncle etc.

The quintessential Shakuni Maama. Need I say more? The one actor that I can think of that made a living out of this character was Jeewan. But my prime example does not go to him. This character also has shades of that wisely bad guy who collaborates with outside forces.

Prime example: Prem Chopra`s Shambhu ka dimaag do dhaari talwaar

7. Local Gangster:

Organized crime had arrived and the common city folk really felt the brunt of it. Extortionist was rampant in the big cities and since the market had shifted in a big way towards the urban population, most themes were very urban. This is also a variation of the evil landlord but in the urban violence context.

Prime Example: Sadashiv Amrapurkar`s Raama Shetty

8. Evil Politician:

The movies that had the gang violence also depicted the nexus of politicians with gangsters and inevitably ended with the death of the gangster with the overall feeling that the real bad guys, the politicians remained untouched. Then of course the movies were made where the actual politician was chased by somebody like nana Patekar down the street and slaughtered in front of the masses.

9. Terrorist/ Arms dealer:

Obvious response to what has been happening lately in India. This is the biggest problem facing the nation and folks are fiercely nationalistic.

Prime Example: Naseeruddin`s Gazal singer character from that Aamir Khan movie? I dunno.

10. Neighboring hostile nation:

Again... post Kargil, what else did anybody expect? A lot of care has been taken to not name Pakistan specifically. I fail to see why. I remember in war scenes they said `Dushman` is doing this and `dushman` is doing that and then they would show the `dushman`. By appearance then you could judge if they were referring to Pakistan or China. Although Pakistan is clearly insinuated in many of these movies its not my all time favorite.

Prime example: Dongrilla (A map in the villain`s control room showed China with `Dongrilla` written across it)

Notable exclusions: Compulsive Rapist, British General, Serial killer.

Any more suggestions or examples?

P.S: If you think hard enough you can find parallels in Hollywood to all of the above categories. The Hindi movies & their characters are a 100 times more caricaturized that`s all.

Reply: 101

He has a Gujarathi father and an English mother and brought up in England.

Ref. Sameer #77, #78

``I actually like Sahir/ Roshan couple lot more than Shakeel/ Naushad and do not mind listening to all kind of Punjabi, Urdu/ Hindi ..``

You took the words out of my mouth Sameer Sahib. Roshan produced some memorable tunes for some non-movie songs and Ghazals also(Available on 3 part cassettes). I wonder if he is still alive.

Thanks for the article on Noor Jehan. I had the pleasure of listening her in concert here, but while growing up in East Punjab, many of her Urdu songs you mention somehow did not get on the local air-waves. The Pakistani Punjabi songs were of course played everywhere. This is before television was introduced on the sub-continent. Things are probably different now.

VK # 70

Being a fan of Naushad or Roshan does not mean I belittle the work of other music directors you mentioned. When you have time fill us in on R.D. Burman`s work. Yes A. Rahman is good and promising. Who else would you put in his leauge these days?

Ref. Sameer #77, #78

``I actually like Sahir/ Roshan couple lot more than Shakeel/ Naushad and do not mind listening to all kind of Punjabi, Urdu/ Hindi ..``

You took the words out of my mouth Sameer Sahib. Roshan produced some memorable tunes for some non-movie songs and Ghazals also(Available on 3 part cassettes). I wonder if he is still alive.

Thanks for the article on Noor Jehan. I had the pleasure of listening her in concert here, but while growing up in East Punjab, many of her Urdu songs you mention somehow did not get on the local air-waves. The Pakistani Punjabi songs were of course played everywhere. This is before television was introduced on the sub-continent. Things are probably different now.

VK # 70

Being a fan of Naushad or Roshan does not mean I belittle the work of other music directors you mentioned. When you have time fill us in on R.D. Burman`s work. Yes A. Rahman is good and promising. Who else would you put in his leauge these days?

I can make a movie script out of these responses. Please advise if rights are available?

F_K #99

Looking for ``bigotry & hatred``, ``clothed/unclothed heroines`` ``very good songs``?

Its all here:

www.thefridaytimes.com

``Reema in the dock

According to daily Jang, filmstar Reema, clad in burqa, finally appeared in the court of a Lahore additional judge to face charges of singing a song which prayed for the long life of both India and Pakistan. Frivolous litigation is made possible by a provision in the Penal Code.``

Sadhana

Mohajir

the movie from a few Indian directors and the choice of Ben Kingsley (born Krishna Bhanji) ?????????????

Pardon my ignorance but Ben K is of Desi decent? Please explain

Two films, two nations - Editorial

If you want an example of how India and Pakistan differ as nations, then the sagas of the Gandhi and Jinnah films provide a perfect contrast.

The Gandhi film was made by an eminent British director, found international success and won an Oscar as Best Picture of the year, beating even Steven Spielberg’s ET. There were low-key protests against government financing of the movie from a few Indian directors and the choice of Ben Kingsley (born Krishna Bhanji) for the lead role was resented by some actors who worked in Bombay. But the protests quickly dissolved once the film was made and almost everybody agreed that Kingsley made a brilliant Gandhi. Nobody minded that a foreigner wrote the screenplay or objected to the movie’s other stars — except, of course, the Pakistanis. Pakistan banned the Gandhi film. One of its main objections was that the role of Mohammad Ali Jinnah was played by a relative unknown (Alyque Padamsee) and that the Qaid-e-Azam had been given a raw deal in the screenplay. It took the Pakistanis nearly 15 years but eventually, they came up with their reply to Gandhi — an English language movie called Jinnah. Curiously — in view of their objections to Padamsee — they did not choose a famous Pakistani actor to play Jinnah.

Instead, they hired Christopher Lee, whose chief claim to fame was a 1960’s low budget horror flick called Dracula — Prince of Darkness. Nor were they able to assemble the kind of international team that made Gandhi. They used a Pakistani director and the movie’s guiding spirit, a Cambridge academic called Akbar Ahmed, said he would write the screenplay himself. Throughout its filming, the movie faced protests from Pakistanis and after it was finally completed, everybody was unanimous that it would not even approach the success of Gandhi. Thus, it was unloved in its own country and rejected by the world at large.

Now, Jinnah faces a new controversy. The film’s director has alleged Akbar Ahmed did not really write the screenplay. A London-based Parsi called Farrukh Dhondy did it. Dhondy agrees that he wrote it but says that he accepted payment in a variety of semi-clandestine methods (air tickets, etc) because Ahmed told him that he was a non-Muslim and thus could not be seen writing a movie about the founder of Pakistan. Ahmed, who is now General Musharraf’s High Commissioner to London, faces the double embarrassment of defending himself against allegations of lying as well as fighting a law suit filed by the film’s director. Indians will find all this bizarre. Nobody here objected when Saeed Jaffrey, a Muslim, played Sardar Patel in Gandhi or cared about the religion of the script writer. There was no subterfuge, no deceit and no Dracula. Perhaps that is the difference between our two countries. And that is why Gandhi got an Oscar while Jinnah is stuck in the law courts.

sadna:#98

Kaisay teer andaaz ho seedha to kr lo teer ko.

Please direct your bigotry & hatred where,I think,it really belongs.Arabs never conquered India.Afghans,Iranees,& Turkistanees did.

Also a lot of Indian are earning ver good money in arab speaking countries.You might be their Aalam-Fuqra(third world) but they are the Paymasters too.Syed Nehru really drooled over them.



And now for something completely different:

Follywood follies:

How about the eternally classic``Tehro,yeh shaadi naheen ho sakti``.

Ever wondered why the urban hero can never profess his love in hindi/urdu.It is always``sadhna,Ilove you`` rest is in hindi/urdu.

(I know the reason why --it is profound--but will not divulge it yet).

Why is the heroine always ready to shed clothes.Why so much dirt & vulgarity.Sometimes I feel that they are zoo animals in heat separated by the bars but they can smooch through the openings.So pathetic.

english movies are worse---but at least they are on diverse subjects & plenty to choose from.

My favourite of the ones I rented recently:

Ashwani----superb music by Ravinder Jain.Acting,what a treat!

another one:Ishwar.very good songs & one dance-number really really intellectually,sensously,& emotionally gratifying---not in that order!

wassalaam.

FARANGI_KUSH #97

I will leave the Arabs for another time and place.

syjam #85

I`m glad to see you back.

Over to Bollywood and stereotypes:

sobia, sac, futema, your earlier responses to an earlier post `aakhir aap chaahti kya hain?` :-)

sobia, sure thats another unescapable line: `mein tumahare bacche ki maa`n banane wali hoo`n`. If its a supporting character played by say Aruna Irani, well and good, no female mortality issues, but if its Sridevi its a sure date with death.

A few tail-enders:

`aaj se tum ghar sambhaalo, ab mein aaram karoongi` (precursor to morning scene with newly-bathed heroine in white/yellow sari with a red border singing devout bhajan inspiring beatific expressions in the whole household including faithful retainer, young winsome hero is always late, BTW)

`Sahib Mein khaana laga doon?` (Darkened posh home of hero, he comes in holding his coat slung over his shoulder)

`Nahin tum khalo aur so jaao, mujhe bhook nahin hai/mein bahar se kha ke aaya hoon`(Dark stirrings in so far clean-living hero`s soul, ominous sign of haemorraging relationships)

`Sahib bibiji ne savere se kuch nahin khaaya hai`(using time-honored methods of emotional blackmail to domesticate self-absorbed insensitive selfish male. Notice, w/o the faithful retainer, long-suffering heroine would have starved to death eventually)

`ab aap kuchh karoge bhi ya yuhin chup chaap khade rahoge`(much further down the road after her transformation to fishwife)

`potey ka moonh kab dikhaaoge?` First it was `bahu ghar laaoongi` then `chand ka tukda`, now this.

`Mein Kashi jaa rahi hoon`(Matriarch trying to shame too-independent family members into accepting her continuing dominance over their affairs)

`mein aisa hargiz nahin hone doonga` (audience winces, fun and games over, as well as all songs except the cabaret and a sad number, heroine will henceforth appear only soberly dressed in saris, the long haul begins )

`mein kuch samjha nahin` ( What has long been obvious to the well-trained audience if not to the moronic hero but story must be carried forward, its a movie not a Test match)

Stereotypes such as these are the safe signposts of the movie world, inspite of it all I will actually feel sorry if Bollywood decides choose more cynical idioms. I will then watch Telugu movies which BTW have quite as much glamour and a lot more innovation in story lines:-).

Sadhana

macgupta & sadna:#94 & #96

At least my `fulminations` have elicited some informative responses.That was the idea.This would benefit ignorant among us muslims & also perhaps those hindus who care not.

The Swamijis writings I`m reasonably familiar with.His visit to Chicago to attend the world religious conference in or around 1860 is a matter of pride for us all.It is also important to teach our children the `treatment` meted out to him by his hosts(not all,of course).His devotion & service to his Guru suffering from leprocy and the Swamijis `proof` to the Doctors has been a beacon for my understanding of some aspects of medicine & human will-power.

My teacher,my guru has composed a beautiful poem to pay his homage to the great Swamiji---The one & only,IQBAL.

May be,of late,the intellectual tickling by me brought tears to your eyes.That was not the intent.I firmly belief that true friendship is to learn about the others belief rather than sanitize it & pretend that it is not there.The children who go to secular schools are suddenly confronted with the real world headlines & then they are unable to cope with it as adults.Religion is not problem,it is a necessity and we better harness its power early on in the formative years.Most hindu/muslims are scared of each other because of their non-chalant attitude towards religion.

No matter how much we want it we cannot wish religion away.If past 10,000 years are any indication, let us not delude ourselves into thinking that we in the 21st century are `different` & `modern` and our forefathers were a stupid moronic provincial bunch.To test the waters just seek an opinion about yourself from your children.

Let us try to live together as proud practitioners

of our faith and try to find common inter-active ground within these.Creating new beliefs & theories would only be fractious.

I did not mean to make it my long `Dominant Discourse`--thank you bilal ahmad.

And thank you all!

wassalaam.

Veeresh:#92

2)About``show me``

Let me enlighten you ont that:

Everything really is about money & power plus you can add looking `foreign` in your homeland,having spent years in Ba Ba Blacksheep Schools,& knowing western trivia.Show me someone who abhors all these and I`ll show you a Digembar Jain Sadhu.A good sight for you to flaunt your under-wear fetish.

for the uninitiated:(Digembar Sadhus never wear any clothes and walk around without even a whiff of an underwear)

3)Banning,albeit temporarily,reigion & adoption of sanitized & radiated handles:

This is the dreamworld of an avowed atheist,secularist,& ex-socialist---

``Religions of the world!Unite,you have nothing to lose except some `friends` & relatives.``

PS:Plenty of under-wear sites on the net.Why pukar? a poor parody of the colonisers at best.

You see muslims never roll over & play dead.

wassalaam.

Re: Farangi_kush`s fulminations on this board -- his observation that Hindus are ashamed to be Hindus is a very important one. This is precisely the complaint that the Vishva Hindu Parishad and the RSS started off with. ``Garv say kaho hum Hindu hein`` ( say with pride that we are Hindus) was their slogan.

From another angle, the Southern Baptists, an American Protestant denomination, who are among the major evangelizers in India, claim that Hindus lack a sense of personal responsibility (and a sense of shame).

To Farangi_kush`s statement that it is impossible to be a Muslim and be a communist, it is oxymoronic, I would reply that it is impossible to be a Muslim and to be a Muslim, it is oxymoronic ( that is temporal`s complaint in his story of the bombing of the Kaaba).

As to what it takes not to be a Hindu, it takes an explicit renunciation of being a Hindu to leave the fold. Lord Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita promises that ``all worship comes to Me``, and that ``all paths lead to Me``. The Vedas teach that just as all streams find their way to the sea, all paths (eventually) lead to the same goal, the realization of what in English you would term God. So, one must learn to forget this to stop being a Hindu.

Muslims are classified as worshippers of the Nirguna Brahmana (formless, attributeless Godhead); most Hindus are worshippers of the Saguna Brahmana ( with attributes, etc., e.g, Lord Krishna).

The disagreements over cow-slaughter, etc., between Muslims and Hindus stem from the fact that desecration of Hindu symbols has been a standard modus operandi of Muslim conquerors in India. It is exactly the same feeling as with destroyed temples. But actually, Buddhist tradition claims that it taught Sanatana Dharmis not to kill cows and not to sacrifice animals.

The specifics on how to lead life are specific to particular ages. The decay in Hindu society has been because it did not adapt to the times. Hindu religion became a home for ossified customs; understanding of why something was done, and why it might no longer be applicable, was lost.

The principles that guide life remain the same, however.

-arun gupta

I would argue that Hindi movies in any case have very little to do with real life; and are followers of trends rather than setters of trends. Therefore, if there is more hostility towards Pakistan explicit or implicit in Hindi movies, it is because that is present in society. My watching of Hindi movies is limited; but within that experience, I do not see any new antagonism towards Pakistan being expressed.

-arun gupta

FARANGI_KUSH #91

I make no apologies to anyone for replying on this thread to another of F_K`s pet themes ``Hindus are ashamed of themselves``

F_K: ``My question? what is it that,which,if you do not subscribe to (theory & practise) will take you out of the fold of hinduism.The only thing I know is that one was fed cow-dung to ``DE-Bhrusht`` the blasphemerer (Eater of beef,for example) and make him shudh & pavittar again....(source? your grand acclaimed hindi writer Munshi PremChand.``

My answer: what will make Hindus leave the `fold of Hinduism` is to abandon their millenniums-old proud tradition of using their minds and judgement as individuals and as groups and to begin to act on closed minds and hatred alone.



Here are some random excerpts from commentaries on Hindusim, the Vedas and the Upanishads(surely you know what these are?)

``Strength, strength is what the Upanishads speak to me from every page. ..``, ``freedom-physical freedom, mental freedom, and spiritual freedom -are the watchwords of the Upanishads``

Swami Vivekananda, Complete works, Vol III, Eigth Edition, pp237-38 (xx)

``Two ideals of truth are in our scriptures; the one is what we call the eternal, and the other is not so authoritative, yet binding under particular circumstances, times and places. The eternal relations between souls and God are embodied in what we call the Srutis, the Vedas. The next set of truths is what we call the Smrithis..

...This is a pecularity which we have to understand -that our religion preaches an Impersonal-Personal God. It preaches any amount of impersonal laws plus any amount of personality; but the very fountain head of our religion is in the Srutis, the Vedas which are perfectly impersonal.. ``

Swami Vivekananda, Complete works, Vol III, Eigth Edition, pp248-51 (xx)

``No one who has watched Indians passionately celebrating the birthday of Lord Krishna could suppose that Hindus are indifferent to religious forms. And yet it remains true that behind this worship and even among men and women of very simple background, the consciousness that the form they are worshipping represents a supra-formal principle, and that this is its true reality, is rarely altogether absent. It is not the form, but the god who is thought of as having descended into it, which is under worship. Anyone who has seen Indian villagers worshipping, let us say, the lovingly decorated image of Durga on her festival day, and then at the end of the ceremonies, placing that same image into a pond or a river where it rapidly dissolves, knows that this is so. The forms of religion, indispensable as these are, are not the same as the truths they represent.

One important effect of this is found in the tolerance which is widely admitted to mark the Hindu outlook..``

Stephen Cross, The Elements of Hinduism, p7

In areas of life ``those open to sense perception and other valid means of knowledge recognised by Hindu thought, (even) the Vedas are not an authority.

Shankara(

I thought I would stay out of this one as it was dedicated to me but . . . therefore:-

1) Films, or for that matter television serials, news on tv/radio, circuses with clowns and other similar whatever, none of them are made with any motive other than to generate money and thus power for their makers.

2) Religions are all about commercialising property and assets without paying taxes. Show me a temple, mosque, gurudwara, agiary, church or synagogue, without a commercial aspect and I will show you a religion that is ABOUT to vanish.

3) Why do discussions, even about films, at chowk, veer around to debates on whether one religion has bigger reproductive organs than the other, not neccessarily better? Can we not ban religion on a trial basis for some time, and use only non-denominational pseudonyms or numerics for our handles? (Excluding 108 & 786 . . .)

4) Bollywood, now renamed ``Mollywood``, while Mollywood was reNAMED ``Collywood`` and Collywood will soon be renamed ``Kollywood``, all of them put together, have the credibility of Jinnah and Gandhi in this day and age. Get a life, who takes these people seriously, other than for a few hours of unwinding?

5) ``The Party`` by Peter Sellers was never banned in India. It did very well, in fact, and still re-appears on the Sunday morning circuit. However, much to everybody`s regret, they banned ``Lady Chatterley`s Lover``, which was a better movie devoted to removal of underwear. (Sorry, I had to slip that one in, there is no power and I am working while sitting in my underwear . . .)

6) The villian of the day in Indian films are more often the arms of the Indian Government than the Pakistani Government, if you want to go by numbers, so what is anybody from Pakistan cribbing about? And if you want to go on qualitative terms, I have not seen any Indian movie showing a particular ``people``, Pakistani or otherwise, as villians. If however it is the case of any Pakistani on this forum that their government (or any government for that matter) are innocence personfied, then sorry, you need and deserve those Indian movies you see, they were made for you to take seriously!

Because, let me assure you, even we don`t believe them.

Sure, ``Border`` tries to recreate an Indo-Pak battle and why not? But that does not prevent the people of our countries from realising the futility of this whole ``I am better than you`` stuff.

I have said this before, and I say it again: please find out the sentiments that the people of the two armies have when they exchange bodies of dead soldiers before going off on tangents. Please ask those who have lost friends and family in this stupidity between our countries before haring off to donate money to buy more weapons.

I, meanwhile, am off to check whether Madhuri Dixit is wearing wonderbra in ``Pukar`` or not. Underwear is better than fighting, no?

Sadna:#90

I will never disappoint you.So here it goes.

SECULARISM. Happy?

Now please tell me something.I am assuming that you are a hindu and perhaps embarassed to be such.

My question? what is it that,which,if you do not subscribe to (theory & practise) will take you out of the fold of hinduism.The only thing I know is that one was fed cow-dung to ``DE-Bhrusht`` the blasphemerer (Eater of beef,for example) and make him shudh & pavittar again....(source? your grand acclaimed hindi writer Munshi PremChand.

Now of course the farangis came & with their secularism & Darwinism convinced hindus about the need to gradually give up such missing-link activities & helped them in fast-forwarding them to evolve into homo-erecticus.

The future of Indians is giving up hinduism and adoptinf of secularism & then make the second move to -----you know what.I can understand that doing it in one step is a little painful;the memories are too fresh.

FARANGI_KUSH #89

Nice to notice no further mention of `secularism` in your post.

It is often very hard to make sense of some of your posts, but there are a few consistences.

One is :`Choro`n ko saare nazar aate hain chor`

wrt `slavery` that you harp on. After saying `FREEDOM IS A STATE OF MIND`, you are inordinately obssessed with slavery. Now why this obssession with slavery and `farangs` even 50+years after they left? Are you afraid that as Asians we cannot deal with them on our terms? What makes you so afraid ? Also does calling Indians slaves make you feel less slavish?

Also, have you ever thought that being completely obliged to Arabs and petro-dollars in matters of religion, identity and solvency could also be defined as slavery? Then if so sincerely seized with the perils of slavery and bondage, why are you not trying to incite reform in these areas, too and promoting Pakistani self-reliance in economic and religious matters ? These are the other long-distance masters that you cleverly sidestep discussion of, why is that?

Secondly, the creed of hatred is not the creed of Islam, anyone and his uncle knows that. Due to a similar logic even Hindu `hardliners` are losing their grip on the public imagination. Hatred doesnot fill stomachs though it may tear them open. In those like you and ali1, one sees no Islam, one sees only hatred. Instead of carrying Islam forward, you are only trying to carry hatred forward. The `galli-mohalla wallahs` and `colony-wallahs` can only reach that conclusion whether in your country or my country.

Sadhana

To:

Khans,azmi and other kanjars who are `advanced` & `modern` because they know english & but not urdu(or pretend not to) & pretend to be beyond the confines of religion:

Amid all the hoopla of protests & self-righteousness along the style of your long-distance masters have you forgotten that ``The Party`` is still banned in India.What was the fault of `Hurundi Bakhshi`,may I ask? Did he not really portray an anglicised hindu superbly & accurately?

In fact watching one of the human-gods of the Indian screen (on tv) with Mick Jagger brought to my attention the servility & lecherousness which is the hallmark of such slaves.Strutting around the lesser slaves he perhaps felt twice his size when in the company of a scion of his former masters.

PS:For those who do not know,the British film ``The party`` was banned in India.I do not know if it is still so.

wassalaam.



pullu:

You are wrong on all counts.But you being a hindu I can understand that you are everything & nothing at the same time.Acquiring the apparent garb of the conquerers is the only way for those whose creed is rooted in earth.If you can`t move you might as well conform!!!

syjam:

BJP & RSS are truly the muslims` best `friends` & they are their own best friends too!.At least they are honest & do not kill you by first befriending you.They challenge you to be either a muslim or shut up.Enough of this chamatkar of congress & socialism.No matter how much you`ll plead your `innocense`,that you are really a `muslim` of the mirza-variety,in fact, a fundo-basher, your `services` will not be recognised.So please start talking to the ones in the old mohallas & venture out of the colony you live in (Ever wondered why the upscale places in Indo-Pak are proudly termed as COLONY? Feeling of `homesickness` perhaps? A longing for the master?----Only in Indo-Pak this happens)

Hi Futema,

You have presented a very balanced view on Bollywood.And your concerns that some of the movies being churned out by the ``bollywood factory`` hurt many, are valid.But you must also keep in mind that since the target population for these movies is Indian, the issues raised can cause heart-burns. But do you think the same would be possible or feasible if Pakistan happened to allow hindi movies to be shown there? Would it then not be economically prudent to make movies that satisfy all souls? But till then may be nothing much can be done about it.I would also love to see pakistani movies being shown in India.(lollywood?)

As regards to the bollywood movie being ``hulka-phulka``, you are absolutely right. Even Indians know this and we like them all the same.For some serious stuff you can always watch a bengali or a malayalee (kerala) movie.Though once in a while even some hindi movies stand out proud in the same league.

No, bollywood movies are not politically funded. Politics here is not so simple.

Yes, there have been cases where the government has exempted some films from taxes but they are more for socially relevant films.

I do hope that bollywood keeps growing and does not fall prey to nationality and religion.

Good one.

There is this man called ``FARANGI_KUSH`` who doesn`t know that it is all about bollywood here.I guess he is the typical pakistani we read about daily here. You try anything he will still come back to the square one.

``Mullah ki daud masjid tak``.

This for FARANGI and his tribe only.

# Let me tell you that ``sati`` was never given religious sanction here. It was a social issue which had taken birth due to incessant battles and invasions.It was abolished because the hindus too wished it so.

# Socialism is not a religion, it is a concept.It has united people more than you know.And it has stoutly defended itself against soldiers of jehad like you.

# Hinduism is a way of life, not a religion based on the existence and beliefs of a single man. It is a collective effort of thousands of holy men and is not the burden of a single soul.

It is very easy to speak against any religion, more so Islam, but no right minded person would do so. Because it is not RIGHT.

# So you think the West is crumbling? Miyan, FARANGI_KUSH look down, is the earth there?

Hinduism and secularism( I think basically both are same) have and will keep India united, much more than you and your herdsmen(people of the same school of thought) can keep Pakistan united.

# Lastly, if Hindus are earthworms then you have gone through a miraculous metamorphosis.Because before the advent of Islam you too would have been a Hindu. Don`t like the thought. I am laughing, buddy.

I shouldn`t have written all this.But

this was not for the sane minded people of chowk of any religion or nationality.

pullu.

Lawyer for Ousted Pakistan PM

Gunned Down

March 10, 2000 10:29 AM EST

KARACHI (Reuters) - Unidentified gunmen shot dead a lawyer defending Pakistan`s ousted prime minister Nawaz Sharif against a possible death sentence in a daylight

attack on his city center offices Friday.

Police and witnesses said Iqbal Raad, a leading member of Sharif`s defense team, died from a volley of bullets to his chest. An office assistant and the visiting son of a High

Court judge who were in the premises were also killed.

Pakistani military ruler General Pervez Musharraf called the killing ``a dastardly act of terrorism.``

The murder happened just weeks before President Clinton visits Pakistan.

A spokesmen for Sharif`s Pakistan Muslim League (PML), which was ousted in a bloodless Oct. 12 coup by Musharraf, said Raad had received a number of threats but declined to elaborate.

``For the past some days he was complaining that he was receiving threats,`` Raja Zafarul Haq told Reuters in Islamabad.

He declined to comment on a possible motive for the slaying, but said it would hamper Sharif`s defense, which resumes Monday.

The head of the legal team defending Sharif, Khwaja Sultan, said that the defense was ``terrified at the killing and would like to know the motives behind it.``

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

What is this B.S. about ``Bollywood`` -- an appellation used by those who tell Pakistanis that they folklow and copy everything `Bollywood`! -- as if the SheraNwali Maa gave us ``Bollywood`` and all the stolen plots of movies from the west. My ``opinion`` to both is: SHUT UP.

To Pakistanis is: You shameless monkys develop your own. Its not that you don`t have the money or talent. But after seeing what you did to ``Meena Shori`` in Pakistan, my ``opinion`` is La`anat ho tum p`r.

Ismail Merchant bites the bullet



Aseem Chhabra

Ismail Merchant is frustrated and angry.

A week before the US release of his new film, Cotton Mary, the filmmaker finds his work embroiled in controversy in India. Anglo-Indian groups in Kerala and West Bengal have expressed outrage at the way the film projects their minority community and their leaders have called for the film to be banned.

On the surface Merchant, 63, who has been producing movies for 40 years, seems calm, composed and almost philosophical.

``One can`t react to foolishness,`` he said in an interview from his office in Manhattan. ``If you were to react to everything that is happening in India, you will be nowhere. The best thing is to keep on doing one`s work and move on, the way Deepa Mehta has done.``

Mehta`s Fire was withdrawn from Maharashtra and Delhi theaters following protests by Hindu groups that its lesbianism was unbecoming of Hinduism. Hindu activists also barred her from shooting Water, a story of plight of widows, in Varanasi. But she vows she will complete the film.

Cotton Mary is the third feature film directed by Merchant, following In Custody and The Proprietor. For most part of his career, Merchant has been raising money for the movies including the Oscar-winner A Room with a Window, directed by James Ivory. Ivory has directed most of the movies that Merchant had produced.

Set in the 1950s in Kerala, Cotton Mary is the story of two Anglo-Indian sisters and their intricate relationship with a British family. The film stars Madhur Jaffrey, Greta Scacchi and James Wilby. Merchant directed the film, based on a screenplay by a young American, Alexandra Viets.

In a press statement faxed from his office, Merchant defended his work:

``The film is by no means meant to be a naturalistic picture of India or of Anglo-India but rather a paradigm of the effects and after effects of colonialism -- both on the colonized and on the colonizer. It tries to give an impression of what happens when one civilization attempts to impose itself on another.``

Merchant added in the statement:

``I might point out that the British characters in the film also suffer a distortion of their characters and their values as a result of being in a country where they do not belong. I regard my film as a protest against any kind of colonialism or imperialism anywhere in the world.``

As the interview progressed, Merchant became agitated. His expressed his anger towards several elements of the Indian society, including what he called the guardians of minorities -- journalists -- and the Hindu and Muslim groups that have been vocal against filmmaker Mehta, and actress and social activist Shabana Azmi.

``People have gone berserk and crazy,`` he said raising his voice. ``Why can`t they spend time on more constructive things? Why can`t the journalists write and say, `Listen guys, why are you driving the country down?```

He said with certainty that most of the people critical of the film had not even seen it. At a recent press conference in Bombay, where he was promoting Cotton Mary, Merchant polled the reporters to see how many had seen the film. Only one raised his hand, Merchant said.

Merchant said that no other film in recent times had dealt with the women`s issues, including breast-feeding and the depression that follows pregnancy.

``The child in film (Scacchi`s baby) is saved by an Anglo-Indian (played by Neena Gupta) who breastfeeds him,`` he said. ``In India a mother or ma is a sacred symbol. And ma gives life to a baby and a human being -- and milk which right from beginning gives sustenance and gives life to a child.``

``I wish people would see the film for what it is, instead of making foolish statements against,`` he said.

Merchant criticized the standards of films that have been made in India in the past 10 years.

``You try to go see a decent film and there is no audience, there are no critics supporting the film,`` he said.

Prior to the February 25th opening of Cotton Mary in India, the filmmaker organized a festival of seven films from the Merchant-Ivory collection. The program including three films that had never been commercially shown in India -- Jefferson in Paris, A Soldier`s Daughter Never Cries, and The Proprietor.

``No critic, no writer, no editor commented that these were new films that had been released,`` he said. `` They could have said: `Go see the films, educate yourself.` There were a lot of interviews with me. But it is not the interviews and my photographs that I am interested in. I want my work to be seen.``

Despite his frustrations, he said he still had some expectations of journalists.

``Young students and other have to be guided,`` he said. ``And the guiding force is journalism and writing.`` But despite his bad experiences, Merchant hasn`t thrown in the towel.

``I`ve been working for almost 40 years and I`ve never been discouraged,`` he said. ``My films are shown everywhere, and India is not a huge market for me. But I can`t understand when a film is well made and is sympathetic to its characters, why people don`t go and see it instead of criticizing it.``

Merchant said still hopes that Indian audiences will begin to appreciate films made by him and Ivory. Recently, a young journalist in India told Merchant that The Householder was the best film that she had seen.

``I was so touched by it,`` Merchant said. ``The Householder was made nearly 40 years ago. I said to myself that if the film can move this 21-year-old girl, we must be doing something right.``

Sadna #83

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

FARANGI_KUSH #81

Your message of concern for Indian Muslims is touching. Not being an Indian Muslim, I cannot respond to it.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

I will! With friends like Farangi and Asif, we don`t need Thakreys and RSS...

:)

Seriously, the do gooders from accross the border and their followers in old city mohallas have done more damage to the cause of Indian Muslims than worst of the Hindu thugs!

These do gooders first created the borders; pretty much succeeded in sending their own masses down the path of darkness and they want us to follow the suit...

FARANGI_KUSH #83

You say ``FREEDOM IS A STATE OF MIND``. Good for you! Now how is that consistent with your statement ``Indians have been slaves for millenniums & they will be slaves forever``

If the entire Pakistani nation or even the 4 billion remaining world population stand up and declare Indians slaves, its irrelevant because as you say ``FREEDOM IS A STATE OF MIND``. Freedom as a nation means making national decisions based on your own national interest, not based on unwelcome influences from outsiders.

Hence, if a government decides certain aspects of social/religious practice are against the core principles of the nation, with the consent of the `janata janardhan` it is free to outlaw these practices, whether suttee or dowry. I am glad in India, insecurity about identity is not at such a pathetic level that killing of women has to be sanctioned by law just to demonstrate to the public, the world or to any obscene-tongued Pakistani from across the border the lack of `slavishness to farangis`. Neither the principles of Hinduism nor the cause of Indian nationalism are compromised in any way by outlawing practices considered heinious in the present day. I hope Pakistanis realise this salient fact about Islam and their own national identity and give their men and women a better deal in their final Constitution.

And it ought to be realised Indians will not be relying a whole lot on Pakistani or even Western judgement when they evaluate the relevance to concepts like democracy, plurality and secularism to their future as Indians, Hindus, Protestents, Syrian Catholics, Latin Catholics, Jacobites, Marthomites, Jehovah`s Witnesses, Pentecosts, Shias, Sunnis, Ismailis, Ahmedias, Sufis, Sikhs, Buddhists, Digambar Jains, Swetambar Jains, Jews, Parsis, Baha`is, Atheists, Veer Shaivas(I don`t know all the variations of many broad categories, sorry).

This is in addition to planning for strengthening their cultural roots as Marathis, Gujaratis, Tamils, Kannadigas, Keralites, Allahabadis, Lucknowis, Punjabis, Rajasthanis, Sindhis, Kutchis, Konkanis, Coorgis, Bengalis, Assamese, Nagas, Manipuris, Pahadis, Kumaonis, Oriyas, Rajasthanis, Kashmiris, Andhra`ites, Tripura`ites, Meghalaya `ians, Mizos, Bodos, Gurkhas, Tribals,etc, etc. Anyone left out, sorry, but its not intended. Also, each of these have sub-categories, say Telugus: Telengana/East/West Godavari/etc, Marathis: Marathwada/Vidharbha/etc. I have not even begun to lists castes and subcastes and sub-subcastes. An identity card with personal information would become a heavy encyclopaedia with hundreds of years of unique cultural history detailed in the description of identity.

There will be no end to variations in personal/community law. A law degree in Indian personal law will take many lifetimes to master and justice will be really difficult to implement(half the city of Delhi would be one mass of paper representing the Constitution). I am sure you get the picture. Its an act of courage and faith to think that justice can be served among a billion people based on a few pages of the Constitution, well many Indians choose to show that courage and keep that faith.

``The saudi examples you gave are nonsensical because nobody is claiming to be celebrity there for these reasons and would not be caught dead doing this.``

Excuse me, Saudi hypocrisy in religious matters is very important. They seem to be claiming to be the `keepers of the faith`. In Saudi Arabia, it seems nothing is a private matter. Women cannot venture out without proper escort, they are stoned to death for adultery, peoples hands are cut off for theft, Muslims are punished for breaking strict religious codes, nonMuslims are punished even for worshipping, the 5-times namaz is enforced by law. Most of all, Saudi money funds the experiments in Islamic `purity` all over the world which offer stiff competition to Saudis in hypocrisy, such as in Afghanistan.

And somehow all this is less subversive to Islam and universal values than the secularism in the Indian Constitution and a well-known Muslim woman minding her own business in India.

For people of your mentality, this couplet is getting more relevant day-by-day

http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Ginza/6631/ghalib06.html

`` bas ki dushwaar hai har kaam ka aasaa.N honaaa

aadamii ko bhii mayassar nahii.n insaa.N honaa

giriyaa chaahe hai Kharaabii mere kaashaane kii

dar-o-diivaar se Tapake hai bayaabaa.N honaa ``

-Ghalib

Sadhana

Sadana:#82

Separation of state from religion?

Why did it then require a Gurgwara Act or Abolition of Suttee Act?If the woman is a hindu why can she not become suttee.I agree that nobody should force her into it,but since when did the farangies decided that the state has more `knowledge` about these matters.Hindus are so embarrased & ashamed of their creed that they let the British India Act of 1935 meddle in their affairs or is it the hindu mentality of compromise--the survival strategy of an earthworm?If your religion is so earth(land)bound then that is what you are! An earthworm.If separate,why should the state even think about the muslim practices & try to `protect` those who want to practice their religion & enforce their religious code of honour.Our justice system was very well safeguarded under practising hindu rajas in undivided India & we lived happily there if the raja was good to his subjects.The hindus were living happily under a muslim sultan if the sultan was good to all his subjects.The farangies came and because their christainity mission could not work on either hindus or muslims they concocted this third `religion`--secularism.

If the commies were not crushed by our Afghan bretheren then these commie-Kanjars would have really made this world a free-for-all fornication & drunken orgy house.Think again,If a father & husband relishes in the thought of his daughter and wife simulating(acting out?)sex and enjoys such spotlight,then if he is not baighairat then what else is he?

The saudi examples you gave are nonsensical because nobody is claiming to be celebrity there for these reasons and would not be caught dead doing this.yes private matter should always stay as private and not become tabloid `glamour` or `success` or `noteriety`.Such should not have state sanction, even by looking the other way.

Getting rid of western education is the first step towards learning.Is is not a shame that we have to converse in this filthy slave language?Which people on this earth are proud to eat,drink,dress,talk and think like their former masters and still gloat that they `won` freedom?

Indians have been slaves for millenniums & they will be slaves forever.They despise their own thinking so therefore they can be never free,though they may be independant.FREEDOM IS A STATE OF MIND.



It is actually important to let the person firmly declare ones religion on an identity card so that he/she can choose the laws under which he prefers to live---just like it was before the farangi.

This white-washed new religion introduced by the farangi should be trampled upon & obliterated once for all.If archaic religions like hinduism do not have Constitutions like the three great religions then they must learn to live under the codes of these.

The western world is crumbling right in our view.THe show is on! `Live`!! .The biggest terrorist act is the suicidal moral depravity these guys are into.Our job is to cling & clench into our far advanced and superior civilisation......and ever so patiently.This place shall be the bastion of Islam!

wassalaam.

FARANGI_KUSH #81

Your message of concern for Indian Muslims is touching. Not being an Indian Muslim, I cannot respond to it. From what I read in the newspapers, many Muslim priests in Kashmir have been killed by other self-appointed guardians from Pakistan and Sufi mosques being taken over by `Wahabis?`, so I guess you are on track there. I am interested to note that you have no answer for my comments on the unIslamic behaviour of `keepers of the faith` in Saudi Arabia who also fund such `purification` activities elsewhere, apparently that doesnot concern you too much. Very revealing, I think. I am sure Indian Muslims would be interested to see how Pakistanis resolve the issues of orthodoxy and rational practice of Islam, so far there is not a whole lot of inspirational stuff visible, I am guessing.

Back to secularism, India and the West. I think you are confusing a number of things. The sea of `relativism` that the West has ventured into, is distinct from secularism which is separation of state and religion. Sections of society in the West display as much obscurantism about the imperatives to believe in nothing collectively as do ideological hardliners all over the world about their own belief systems. The costs of these `relativist` concepts on individuals and society are very visible in the form of broken families, violence, promiscuity, drug addiction in all economic strata, lack of stable mutually-sustaining relationships between individuals and within communities, insecurity and isolation etc. Part of this resulted from industrialization, part of it is the lessons these societies chose to learn from their history.

However, these ill effects (which are aggravated by a consumerist culture but are offset to some extent by prosperity, opportunities for individuals and orderliness of civic life) run a close race with the ill effects of rigid religious and social practices which are as unquestioningly accepted elsewhere in the world. The keyword here is `unquestioning`.

Also, in the West, self-examination and individual or collective freedom of religious belief(enabled by democracy and secularism) are much more vigorous than in the Islamic world.

A committment to secularism means fostering all shades of religious thought. In the US, they are now coming around from their traditional stance of `suppression of religion in govt matters` to what has always been the practice in India: `equality of all religions, in govt matters`. (No Civil Code caveats from anyone please, take that as a social, `evolutionary` and historical artefact that will take some more time and thought to figure out)

In my opinion, religious piety or social /individual responsibility have to be fostered not enforced. As happens with fostering anything, one never knows what will result. Well, in a confident and free society, its important to have all shades of opinion and thought, safeguards and limits can always be designed for mutual protection and self-correction. Rigid enforcement of one point of view will quell everything, and will leave you with empty hands eventually. Its like a prison. Prisoners lead orderly directed existences, if let out they may commit heinious crimes. However, due to the severe restrictions placed on them, the inhabitants of prisons cannot be said to constitute a productive, thinking, evolving society.

About Islam and communist ideology, I`m the wrong person to talk to. However, I will definately speak up at every attempt to mindlessly label or regiment any Indian of any ideology even from afar.

Sadhana

sadna:# 79

What you must understand is the concept of ``full disclosure``.If you are a muslim then you just cannot be a communist.It is a complete oxymoron.Atheism & belief in Allah just do not jive.Hinduism & India are not my busineess and I & other Pakistanis are not uncivilised to visit Indian boards to the point to find `solutions` to India`s problems--it is not for us to find faults,repair,or fix India or Indians.Our interests are Muslims of India.Kashmir is important to us because of its Muslim population.My only pray for hindus is that they find the strength to be better hindus & not become secularists,the bane of the western world.

Do you not have eyes to see the fragmentation & fractiousness of the west because of its philosophy of `anything goes`.Do you feel comfortable sitting with your children watching genitalia Americana & are you looking forward for some genetalia Indiana on & off the screen?

The orthodoxy,fundamentalism,& obscurantism of Marx & Hegel will take a generation to exorcise.I feel sorry for such kinds.Not too long ago Nietche and his announcement about Gods` expiry was touted with gusto.Some got phds & awards for writing intellectualesed stuff from such `prestigious` places as harvards & yales.

Oh how the english-only knower been intellectualy assaulted & violated!

Your prof. will not tell you that.He/She has to earn & look `modern`.

wasalaam.

The crisis over the shooting of the Hindi film ‘Gadar’ in the world-famous Asifi Imambara in Lucknow has deepened with Shia Muslim leaders threatening to immolate themselves if permission for shooting was not withdrawn.

The Shias leaders, claiming the support of 40-odd social and religious organisations, said on Thursday that the community was agitated over the attitude of the Lucknow district administration, and warned of ‘serious consequences’ if the Muslim sentiments against shooting at the Imambara were not respected.

Shikoh Azad, spokesman of the royal family of Avadh and the All India Shia Conference, said that Muslims would take to the streets in protest against the permission. “Tomorrow`s Friday ‘Namaz’ at Asifi Mosque is thus going to be crucial,” he added.

Shabbir Ahmad, president of Al-Gadeer, a Muslim social organisation, announced that he would immolate himself in protest against the ‘dubious role’ of the state government on the issue.

Azad and other Shia Muslim leaders went a step further, saying that it would trigger a chain-reaction by way of self-immolations if the state government did not awaken to the situation.

The shooting turned controversial when the Muslim community said a sacred place like the Imambara could not be used as a setting for any commercial film.

Azad, while demanding a high-level inquiry into the matter, alleged that the interior decor of the religious place was recently changed to suit the shooting purposes. “The Shias are very perturbed over it and it is up to the state government to pacify the agitated who might resort to dharna and demonstration,” he added.

He also disputed the clarification from the administration that the District Magistrate had given the permission in his capacity as the ex-officio chairman of Hussainabad and Shahnazaf Allied Trusts, controlling the affairs of the Imambara. “The District Magistrate should have taken into account the feelings of about three lakh Shias of the state capital before permitting it,” he observed.

The Muslim leaders claimed that the entire episode had been planned by the ruling Bhartiya Janata Party (BJP) to disturb the tranquility of Lucknow. “The only sane step on the part of the administration now would be to stop the proposed shooting (from March 13 to 17) and ask the film unit to shoot elsewhere,” they suggested.

Refusing to accept that the protest against the shooting had political undertones, they alleged, “The protests against the shooting of ‘Water” in Varanasi were government-sponsored but here in Lucknow they are related to the religious sentiments.”

The Shia conference leaders said they had sent a memorandum to the Uttar Pradesh chief minister and were awaiting action on it. “In case of failure to get justice from the state government, we would move the courts. We are planning for a public interest petition to be filed anytime,” they said.

On the other hand, Nitin Keni, producer of the film Gadar, said that the onus of providing security to the film unit lay on the state government as it had invited film producers to shoot in the state. He made it clear that he would not invite any risk to his artistes and the members of film unit for the sake of shooting.

Keni said that if he was not allowed to shoot in the Imambara, he would pack up and shoot elsewhere as there was no dearth of locations in the country. He, however, denied that he had received any official word about the whole matter.

Meanwhile, the district administration has made elaborate arrangements for the Namaz on Friday. A police spokesman said that law and order would be maintained in view of the threats from the Muslim community to stage dharna and court arrest tomorrow.

FARANGI_KUSH #76

``When was the last time you saw these characters(ha ha- pun intended) around a mosque or next to a learned person.Oh!harvard? my foot.In case some are not aware the english school syndrome is alive & kicking everywhere.The colony-clones are manufactured here upon payment & sifarish.``

...

``Secularism is the cancer which these evil people are spreading to find legitimacy to their perversions & proclivities.After the fall of their Qibla,they are a wounded prey--and blood I smell nearby! It won`t be long.``

There are cancers and syndromes other than `secularism` and `english school`, which BTW are the least of your problems. I don`t see any evidence that madarassahs and lack of secularism has made `sifarish` or perversions less prevelent in Pakistan or made Pakistanis more inclined to coexist peacefully and promote each other`s interest. I also don`t see any evidence that urging/forcing others to go the the mosque/temple as a burdensome duty has reduced the incidence of boorish or depraved behaviour of any group of people. I have heard a lot about the (unlawful)satellite TV onnections in the homes of wealthy religious mullahs in Saudi Arabia and the London trips of Saudi sheikhs with seemingly express intention of breaking their religious taboos on many counts. Holy land or no holy land I think such people are the most impious, their 5-times a day praying nothwithstanding. Policing the appearance of piety will not ensure piety, it has to be in the mind and a part of daily life, not a bureacratic requirement requiring signing off by religious police.

In the India-Pakistan context, its a matter to ``choose you own brand of obscurantism and don`t knock others choices of what works for them``

Sadhana

More on the theme of `choose your own brand of obscurantism and don`t knock others choices`

Letter to Editor in `The Nation`, March 8, 2000

Gifts of paradise

This refers to Prof Rafi Ullah Shehab`s article `False dreams` (The Nation, Sunday Magazine, February 6). Although I do not represent any religious group, I thought that his unjustified comments about our Ulema were in bad taste. He dubbed them as half-educated, ignoring the fact that it is through their commitment to Islamic scholarship that knowledge of Islam has been communicated from generation to generation. Moreover, Prof Shehab referred to Surah Al-Sajdah which states as under: ``No soul knows what refreshment of the eyes is hidden for him in paradise.`` The Quran itself testifies that hoors will be one of the gifts for the righteous in paradise, a fact that Shehab has tried to play down:

``There are hoors confined in tents`` (Al-Rahman 17),

``Neither man nor jinn has touched them before`` (Al-Rahman 74),

``Resting on green land and lovely painted carpets`` (Al-Rahman 76),

It is sad that he has tried to create an unnecessary controversy in a matter that is settled and controversy-free. - (...), Lahore, March 1.