Talibanization or the Turkish Model?

PAKISTAN`S CHRONIC COUPS

Pakistan`s Never-Ending Story

http://www.foreignaffairs.org

Why has Pakistan, throughout its 52 years, experienced nearly constant political

instability? Stanford scholar Sumit Ganguly finds an answer in the country`s early days,

when the state`s founding party served elite interests and opened the doors to a

dangerous military-bureaucratic collaboration. Now General Musharraf, leader of the

October coup, wants to clean up Pakistan`s economic, social, and political messes. But

the record of military regimes in this hapless country offers little hope that he will get the

job done.

Despite his solemn promises and patriotic rhetoric, it is unlikely that

Musharraf will be able to ease Pakistan`s deep-rooted malaise in the short

period of time that the West will tolerate his unelected rule. Already, the

British Commonwealth has voted to keep Pakistan out of its proceedings

until democracy takes hold. The longer Musharraf stays in power, the less

likely it will be for civilian institutions to make a comeback.

me2paki:#71

Thank you for providing a first-hand experience about Turkey & its secularist `grandeur`.I hope those who are so naive as to look `modern` will benefit from it.

Mustafa Kemal was a bearded maulvi & an Imam before he showed his true colours.He had been a free-mason all along!.The slogan to give lip service to Islam is nothing new.I wonder if masonary if still the `dominant discourse`--thank you bilal ahmad--in Pakistan.

Secularism is the greatest curse upon mankind & it must be opposed with full force and vigour by ALL religions.It is in reality Paganism United Inc.It is the creed of those who want to be bayghairat & baihayah with impunity.

In reality what they are trying to tell us that the activities which used to be expressed as obscenities & swear-words must now be declared glamouras & progressive,they shoul cease to be taboos.

So whenever one notices an avowed secularist one should always know what his designs are & where he is coming from.

wassalaam.

Dearest Omar Sahab,

What do you think you are doing ? These muslim brothers of ours do NOT care about amadou diallo or any other victim of police brutality. They only care about taking out their hatred towards the USA. They go around being racists towards blacks themselves and then blame the USA for not being as perfect and complete as their perfect and complete religion and their perfect and complete religious countries. They do not care about USA yet they will slit each others throats to get a US visit visa. They will go to mosques and pray 5 times a day & return to boast about what a pure religion Islam is and how they are better than the Chrisitian America ``they only go to church on sunday hahaha! they are so irreligious no wonder their country is in so much sin!``. My people are like that :)

We would rather kill our women who ``go astray`` than touch the Mullah who stones 2 year old babies to death in front of mosques back home (all the time chanting that that the baby is the spawn of satan). They would rather shiver in fear of ``zionist conspiracies`` and plot murder and revenge against `evil satanic immoral Umrikans` than do anything when an arab comes to Pakistan to rape or ``marry`` a 6-9 year old sindhi girl. My people would rather call a crime: ``un islamic`` rather than say ``i dont care if this is islamic or not ... I dont care if this is cultural or not I know this is CRIMINAL and inhuman so stop it now!`` That is a good way of burying your head in the sand and going ``I dont care if you rape , pillage enslave and call it anfal and Islam because it is NOT islam and I wont hear any more of it because surely islam does not talk about slavery and concubines and raping women of the enemy NO WAY not according to my transliteration of the interpretation of the translation of the quran kareem``. Instead of saying ``I dont care if Allah approves it or not I will not deprive ahmedis and shias and hindus of their basic humanity`` everyone goes ``oh this is not really islam so lets just get back to our 5 prayers a day and our cricket matches ... and our bakrah-butchering festivals because we are following the REAL islam and with us all is good ...``

To all Chowk readers:

Before some sane minds turn insane over the

possibility of RAW committings the murder of Mr.

RAAD , please consider this:

Mr. Raad has been receiving death threats for some

days and apparently, he was being asked to stop

doing some thing which he was doing these days

(guess what!). Why RAW has to issue death

threats at

Turkey and Kemalism have fascinated the Indo-Pakistani Muslims

for decades. Which is quite understandable as a `modernised` Islam

seems to be the road to redemption, salvation and success. A better

alternative than jihaadi`s! It brings you nearer to the first world.

How many from British India travelled to Ottoman Turkey to appraise

themselves about the agenda of Young Turks? What did they know

about the activities of the last sultan ---Sultan Abdul Hamid, who in his

attempt to save `Khilaafat` (read =his own skin) had made pacts with

the colonialist powers to give away major parts of the country?

How many did a proper analysis of the situation based upon facts

gathered by them, before deciding to embark upon the pro-Khilaafat

campaign.

Hindsight proved that Khilaafat Movement, though a very successful

tactic in fighting against the colonialist power, was a total

misinterpretation of ground realities. The same holds true even today

in most cases of our emotional `involvement` in many of the Islamic

`causes` all around the world.

Both the good or the bad aspects of Kemalism still seem to elude our

people. Kemalism has brought an incredible amount of changes in the

Turkish society. The `salwar (shalwaar)` is replaced by the pantaloons

or skirts. The Arabic script is replaced by the Roman. Great. Mass

education campaign and more women in the urban work force became

very obvious results. Vow. `Apni musalmaan bahen skirt bhi pahenti

hai aur namaaz bhi paRhti hai`. It can`t get better. Cosmetics are more

important than the person wearing it.

Recent EU statistics showed that the level of education of women is

higher in the neighbouring countries of the region. Percentage

of women continuing education after high school in Iraq was

twice as much than that for Turkish women. Iranians also faired better

than Turks.

The nation got divided in two. The Westernised urban elite distanced

itself from the fortunate and less educated non-urbans. Military dictator-

ship has became a permanent feature of the governmental rule. It is

always there as the sword of Damocles. A guarantor of Kemalism

with brute force.

With one fell swoop the Turks got disconnected from their rich past

totally. Once in Bursa, a hilly town that lies in south of Istanbul, while

looking at an old Ottoman mosque, I was approached by a gentleman

who asked me to read (decipher) the date inscribed on the top of the

portal. (This gentleman was the topmost authority on Ottoman

Architecture, having written several books on the subject. )

The Sick Man of Europe is still sick if not sicker.

`Kauuwa chala hans ki chaal to apni chaal bhi bhool gaya`.

http://www.washtimes.com/world/news4-03102000.htm

Pakistan agency fuels violence, U.S. official says

By Ben Barber

THE WASHINGTON TIMES

A high-ranking State Department official says Pakistan`s Inter Service Intelligence agency (ISI) is fomenting extremist violence in India`s northeast, possibly working through dissident groups with bases in Bangladesh.

``We believe the ISI is helping the militants in Assam,`` said the State Department official, who spoke on the condition he not be identified.

``Since they attack unarmed civilians for political purposes, [the militants] meet the classical definition of terrorists.``

Indian and Bangladeshi sources said their governments had determined independently that ISI agents in Bangladesh were encouraging, training and arming some of the militants of the United Liberation Front of Assam and other groups.

The militants for more than 10 years have been blowing up trains and shooting policemen and civilian officials with a goal of winning independence for Assam, a remote Indian state almost entirely cut off by Bangladesh.

Indian academic and journalist Rajeev Sharma charged in a 1999 book that ISI`s goal in backing the anti-India extremists in Bangladesh was ``to disintegrate northeastern India.``

The accusations come as President Clinton prepares to visit India, Bangladesh and Pakistan from March 19 to 26 — despite recommendations by his Secret Service that he faces a risk from terrorists in Pakistan.

India for years has claimed that Pakistan is aiding militant separatist groups in Assam.

But the comments by the senior U.S. official in an interview were the first indication that the United States also believes Pakistan is working to spread discord 500 miles from its border with India.

The United States earlier this year accused Pakistan of granting refuge and support to the Harakat ul-Mujahedeen, the group blamed for hijacking an Indian Airlines passenger plane in Kathmandu, Nepal, in December.

Indian diplomatic sources say Pakistan also gave arms and training in the 1980s to Sikh separatists crusading in Punjab for a separate state they would call Khalistan.

India also blames Pakistan for encouraging Islamic militant groups based in Pakistan to cross the border into Indian-held portions of Kashmir, which has been torn by sectarian fighting since 1990.

Zamir Akram, deputy chief of mission at Pakistan`s embassy in Washington, denied the charges Thursday. He in turn accused India`s intelligence agency — the Research and Analysis Wing (RAW) — of sponsoring terrorist attacks in Pakistan.

``It`s not unusual for India to blame the ISI for everything,`` said Mr. Akram. ``It`s impossible. What kind of outreach can ISI have in Assam?

``We accuse the Indians of terrorist acts in Pakistan. We have arrested people who were interrogated and said they were paid by RAW to plant bombs in railway stations and markets.``

Mr. Akram also said there were reports RAW was behind sectarian violence in Karachi and that some Indian politicians openly advocated terrorism against Pakistan as a punishment for its anti-Indian stance in Kashmir.

A senior South Asian diplomat who is not from India said Thursday that Pakistan`s ISI has been infiltrated by Islamic militants who are working with fundamentalists in Bangladesh to prepare attacks on India.

``The ISI is active in Bangladesh,`` he said, speaking on condition of anonymity. ``ISI is very active and has a large number of fundamentalists in the organization and they have links with fundamentalist groups in Bangladesh.

``We are very watchful about it, and if we find any link we try to bring them to justice. We have told the U.S. State Department to be careful about that and keep a watch on their activities.``

Pakistan`s ISI also is acting in the politics of Bangladesh ``to destabilize the political setup through fundamentalist elements with links to the Afghans,`` said the diplomat.

The Indian diplomat noted that last year a Bangladeshi man working with the Osama bin Laden terrorist group in Afghanistan was caught in New Delhi preparing to bomb a U.S. consulate.

Bangladesh is a mostly Muslim country of 140 million that was part of Pakistan until it won independence in a bloody civil war in 1971, aided by the Indian army.

Some Bangladeshi political and military groups still hate India and favor Pakistan. Bangladesh sources accuse them of allowing the ISI to operate.

Supporters of bin Laden recently were captured in Bangladesh, where they had infiltrated with the help of ISI, according to the sources.

Bangladesh Ambassador K.M. Shehabuddin said Thursday that Pakistani intelligence has been operating terrorist cells in his country, but they have been stymied by the Awami League government of Sheik Hasina, who is grateful for India`s help to her father, Sheik Mujibur Rahman, in the struggle against Pakistan in 1971.

``The present government makes it impossible for ISI to operate against India from Bangladesh — the president won`t allow it,`` he said. ``We are careful about it. We are always opposed to fundamentalism.

``We want good neighbors.``

Gems from TFT, letters to the editor March 10-16th issue

Then what?



Sir,



On your recent articles and TFT`s editorial, regards to all of you for your services to Pakistan. My letter is about the former Indian premier Mr IK Gujral`s interview ``Kargil major setback to Pak-India relations`` (TFT Dec 17-23). Mr Gujral says that ``out of 10 militants in Kashmir now 9 are foreign and they are not even Pakistanis but from far away places fighting for religion or some other interest``.

Let us presume without any argument that they succeed in taking all of Jammu and Kashmir. Let us also presume that the Afghan war ends well and the Afghans are totally under Taliban domination. Let us also presume that no other nation invervenes and accepts the situation. Then what? The militants in Kashmir and Afghanistan will be one and they will not hand over Kashmir to Pakistan as they earned it with only moral support from Pakistan. Then from Khyber to Muzzafarabad they would like to have their own control corridor and eventually they will need the land in between. Then Afghanistan would like to have a corridor to Kashmir. For a long time Afghanistan has not recognised its eastern border. It is not inconceivable that once their allies take Kashmir, the Afghans will cross the Durand Line.

By then there will be enough Islamic fundamentalists in Pakistan to push for the realisation of the greater Pakhtoonistan dream. Countries inimical to Pakistan may encourage such a scenario to gain a foothold in the new area. Has anybody thought of such a scenario?

I am layman and not a politician, neither do I don`t want to be. I have seen enough bad things in the past sixty years of my life in India.

Yours etc.,



Rajiv Rastogi,



Arbitrary charge



Sir,



We are an Italian group of Amnesty International. We are writing to bring to your attention the case of Ghulam Akbar a hotel employee from Fatehpur Kamal, Tehsil Khanpur, Rahimyar Khan, who has been held in prison since 1995 and has been sentenced to death on charges of blasphemy on 29 August 1998 by the sessions Judge in Khanpur. There are two reasons why we are particularly concerned about this case.

The first is that Amnesty International is fighting against the death penalty. We believe in the right to life and in its inviolability, and in the duty of any public authority/state to protect and preserve it, even for criminals. Second, it seems that charges of blasphemy are frequently applied in your country on an arbitrary basis.

In the case of Ghulam Akbar, there is no record of his crime, only the accusation of two men whose good faith can be called into question due to personal enmity. In fact, there is some suggestion that several prosecution witnesses were friends of a certain Siraj Ahmad Shah, who had abducted a relation of Ghulam Akbar and forced her to marry him. This had caused serious tensions between the two men and could be a possible motive for bringing the charge against him.

In general, Amnesty International fears that blasphemy charges are often brought arbitrarily and originate from personal hostilities or from the will to discourage and inhibit religious and political minorities. We would welcome more information on Ghulam Akbar`s case.



Yours etc.,



Amnesty International,

Italy Group.

Head line on CNN

``Pakistan: Gunmen kill Sharif`s lead lawyer``

Another Headline from CNN

``Tata Teas buys Tetleys``

To my Pakistani Friends, your country just came one more step closer to Your neighbor in the NorthWest.

To My Kashmiri Friends.....

Do you guys really want to be a Part of the first headline or the second?

Regards

SyJam

Attention ylh:

Blacks in America etc

Fact: 1/3rd of Black Americans between the ages of 18-29 are either incarcerated, undergoing trial, or out on parole. This makes them a natural for racial profiling. The percentage of crimes they commit is FAR IN EXCESS to their representation in the population.

So occasionally, cops gets trigger happy in a low income, black neighborhood. I feel very badly that a decent man, a hard working black muslim from Africa (not a part of black American culture) got shot, because of the color of his skin, and his place of residence.

However, this is not a normal incident, its not a norm that society condones, unlike `ghairatmand` honor killings, described in my post #64 below. Please compare the reactions of the community in #64 in Pakistan to the ghairatmand-honorable killing of the 14 yr old on suspicion of fornication alone, with the country wide condemnation in the media/community in the U.S that the cops in the AhmeduDialo murder recieved.

The Rodney King incident, the AhmeduD incident, the baton in the rectum of a black guy in the N.Y police station incident, the Texas dragging to death of a black man behind a truck incident, all represent extraordinary events unlike honor killings in Pakistan, of which society-culture approves.

These killings are not reported or discussed on T.V in Pakistan in an attempt to stop the ignorance now are they?

As for racism in Pakistan, it certainly exists. Mainly its directed at the kala (darker) Christian community. These people are referred to in society, by educated people in highly derogatory terms as `chooras`, and considered worthy of being nothing better than jamedars-sweepers of streets.

Also consider the criteria for a bride in Pakistani culture before you talk about racism in the U.S.

It is also manifested when incidents of Koran desecration are alleged, and under cover of the blasphemy laws of Pakistan, fanatical muslim mobs (held up in the community as, `good muslims`--- how come good muslims have this perogative of going on rampages in a civilized society to commit extrajudicial killings?) go on the rampage against these minority communities on the basis of hearsay alone.

In villages, Christians are driven out on the pretext of the blasphemy laws, when in fact the real reason is a land-grab. All under cover of religion.

So, you still wanna talk about the blemishes of American society? Its not perfect, but it don`t even compare to what goes on in Pakistan.

Yeah, getting a baton up your rectum in a police station in Pakistan is hardly extraordinary stuff.

Women get raped routinely in police stations and jails in Pakistan. Why aren`t you outraged about that? And why aren`t you protesting that? Isin`t that a human rights violation?

There is an interesting article in the New York Times today that is relevant to this discussion. The (male) reporter went to a school for girls in Kabul, talked to the (hijab-free) schoolmistress. The schoolmistress reported that so far the Taliban have tolerated this!! He writes about the tall girl who (looks like the Taliban`s tolerance level of girl`s education decreases in direct proportion to the girl`s age), in order to continue her studies pretends she is a teacher, not student. Talks about how these young girls come to school in defiance of the Taliban. I must admit I was moist-eyed by the time I reached the end of the article.

May God have mercy on a society where education is a crime, while heroin growth is a respectable occupation.

To the person who replied to me :)

Pakistan is a great ideal. It was culmination of the democratic aspirations of the Mulims of South Asia. It was the general will of the Muslims of South Asia that brought Pakistan into existence. Unfortunately we gave into bigotry and intolerance.

United States is also a great ideal which is symbolized by the Statue of Liberty. However race relations is a seperate issue all together. A statue of stone does not ensure freedom.

Now as you said it is unimaginable for a nationwide protest of the sort to happen in Pakistan that happened in the USA but I tell you

that it is unimaginable that a person would be shot dead for the color of his skin in Pakistan.

However I dont seek to glorify Pakistan in anyway and obviously being a third world country its problems are much more severe than the US so there is no comparison. What happened in Bangladesh was bad enough. What I meant when I said that US is not a model to follow was the fact that the point where US is right now it is shameless to think that something like the Diallo Saga can happen.

I submitted a poem to Chowk People about this and I DONT KNOW if they are going to Publish it but please go to www.farhaj.web.com and click on message boards and read the message board titled Diallo protest and you will see how I really feel about the US ... and how I SEE THAT the US has failed to deliver its great promise.

Yasser

Honour killing of women on the rise

KARACHI, March 8: A 14-year-old bride shot dead by her husband on their wedding night last week is another worrying sign that centuries-old tradition of ``honour killings`` is on the rise, activists

say.

Karo Kari, which translates as ``blackened man, blackened woman``, is a tribal tradition which decrees death for women suspected of adultery and is still practised in Balochistan and Sindh.

Men often make women their victims to resolve other disputes, often over land or family feuds,

disguising the deaths as Karo Kari. Officials and police too often turn a blind eye, activists say.

The story of 14-year-old Rahima Mugheri is no different.

On March 2, she married 28-year-old Niazal Mugheri in a colourful ceremony in Sajawal Junejo

village near Larkana city.

``On the wedding night, the groom came out of the bedroom and announced that his wife had

confessed to having a sexual relationship with some boy. The whole family declared the girl Kari,`` said Nazir Qureshi, an activist at Sindhyani Tehrik, a private group working to raise awareness among women in tribal areas.

``The groom`s eldest brother fired the first shot, then two of his other brothers and then he himself.

Soon the girl still in her red bridal dress lay in a pool of blood,`` Mr Qureshi said.

The groom escaped and was only arrested by police after activists began protesting over the killing and the story was highlighted in the press.

The girl`s mother Singheer is distraught. ``She was just a bride and not kari,`` she told the activists. The girl`s father Bahram Mugheri told the police: ``My daughter was killed because the boy had an enmity with the man.``

The 21-year-old accused of being the girl`s lover fled for his life as, according to tradition, he must also be killed.

Young girls who have not yet reached puberty, married women with children, even grandmothers are

killed on charges of having sexual relationships with men they have often never seen.

And those who survive the attacks live their lives as social outcasts.

In the past, according to writer Abdul Qadir Junejo, the tradition was to dress up the karo and kari as bridegroom and bride, have a wedding ceremony, and then hack the couple to death.

Now activists say reported cases are on the rise.

``It is on an increase as around 600 such cases were reported alone in 1999,`` said Nighat Taufeeq,

who works for the private Shirkat Gah women`s resource centre. That figure was against 400

reported cases in 1998.

``When women are fighting for their rights around the world we here are still in the chains of tribal ritual of the dark ages which is un-Islamic,`` Ms Taufeeq said.

``It is an unholy alliance that works against the woman: the killers take pride in what they have done, the tribal elders condone the act and protect the killers and the police connive in the cover-up,`` she said.

Usually such cases are settled outside court by the jirga, a tribal council, which announces a verdict.

Often the girl`s family is compensated and pressurised not to make an official complaint.

If tried in court the men often escape with lesser punishments pleading the murders were committed in ``sudden and grave provocation`` rather than as planned murders, activists say. - AFP

* * * It is this kind of story that makes me really angry. I am a militant secularist, and proud of it for this reason. How can one effectively oppose this kind of attitude, which is justified in the name of religion?

Yes religion. Islam justifies the stoning to death of adulterers, after the required burden of proof has been met by the state. These people feel, hey, if religion justifies killing for adultry, or pre-martial sex, whats the difference if we take the law into our own hands? The state theoretically enforces stoning to death in Pakistan anyway.

Once you wrap up women in a Burqa from head to toe, and legitimize the killing of people for consensual sex `offenses` by society, its just one more step towards people taking things into their own hands. In a sense a societal norm, fostered by religion, and the state, condones this exact behavior. This norm is not an ideal i can ever support.

This is why i oppose Talibanization. And why i believe firmly that once religion (which should be restricted to individual freedom of conscience) recieves state enforcement-legitimiacy we are well on the way to Talibanization of society which equals discrimination on the basis of religion, and gender.

I will always oppose this.

OMAR MIRZA

Re Fuzair:

You mention the Afghan Communist government`s policy of universal and compulsory education for boys and girls. When Russia was under the Communists, it is reported that within a decade they raised literacy rates to around 70% in Kirghizstan and Kazakhstan. They changed the alphabet from Arabic script to Cyrillic, implemented compulsory education and, through blunt force, suppressed the mullahs. It is quite another thing that after 70 years of that, the mullahs have come back with a vengeance in Kirghizstan where a civil war is now raging. We can still expect to see a second Afghanistan there.

Even in Turkey, the fight against mullah-dom goes on. If you relax your guard even a little bit, you find these guys coming out and making fantastic claims about truth, justice, and the khilafate way of life. It looks like you really have to suppress freedom of speech because it is so misused by the mullahs. To that extent, democracy and mullah-dom may be incompatible.

The real problem for Pakistan (and most Islamic countries) is where to draw the line. If you have a democratic country, the mullahs use freedom of speech and religion to propagate their 7th century views. If you suppress them mildly (as Iran under the Shah did), they manage to get into power and use the state apparatus for suppressing enemies of mullahs. If you go to the extent of Communist Russia and China, you have no rights for anybody.

I guess that is one of the reasons most middle-of-the-way folks are voting with their feet. They go to a Western country, adopt Western ways, keep their religious observances to themselves and resist the mullah`s admonitions to throw a burqua around a woman wearing a short skirt.

Fuzair #61

I too have heard that one of the problems that Afghan refugees from the communist regime in Kabul used to mention was that their daughters were being sent to school.

Interesting discussion. Let me stir the pot up a little more. I recall reading years ago in my misspent youth one of the few really good analyses of the genesis of the Afghan fighting. The author points out that what really got the people in the countryside worked up against the post-1979 communist government and led to the large scale opposition to it was three things:

1 the govt abolished the wakfs and decided to redistribute land to the tillers (who had been no better than serfs before).

2 the govt mandated compulsory education for all children including girls and warned that it would use force to enforce this rule.

3 the govt stopped paying an annual stipend (i.e., bribes) to the tribal sardars and various mullahs.

If you look at what the post1979 govt was proposing, you can see that it was clearly anti-Islamic and steeped in evil.

Incidentally, the best evidence indicates that the Soviets did not want the coup against Daoud Shah to take place and, later on, neither did they want the govt to implement its radical proposals. However, as per the Brezhnev doctrine, once Communist, no govt could be allowed to go back. Hence the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. I`ve met a few Afghans, almost all of whom loathe Pakistan and Pakistanis, who have quite fond memories of the communist govt, at least as compared to the Taliban.

Thanks to the Afghans, with no little help from Gen. Zia and friends, our country has been destroyed. I recall Peshawar before the Afghan infestation as quite a pleasant little town, no Karachi or Lahore but it had its own charm. Now, its another story.

Interesting discussion. Let me stir the pot up a little more. I recall reading years ago in my misspent youth one of the few really good analyses of the genesis of the Afghan fighting. The author points out that what really got the people in the countryside worked up against the post-1979 communist government and led to the large scale opposition to it was three things:

1