Talibanization or the Turkish Model?

omar mirza is sad paki who thinks that his maters the west will be pleased if he sings thier filthy tune. He is the prostitue of the west, even a prostitue has more honour than him. Mr omar what did your family do when india was killing muslims in kashmir, may screwing you mother.

I am greatly impressed by your views Omar Mirza

and will like to meet you sometimes .... where in New York do you go to school?

-Yasser Hamdani

Re 51: Omar

Thanks for your reply. It did clear up certain things on which I was confused.

Nevertheless, I would still maintain that preaching tolerance to others, or demanding it be enshrined in one`s state`s constitution, while maintaining a grossly vengeful, intolerant position personally, takes some degree of expediency if not hypocrisy. Thats my opinion, you need not agree with it.

Cheers!

Satyavadi

Omar Mirza Janaab, you wrote:

``I still don`t like Indians, in general, Sikhs in particular(hence the grin in that post, not because i thought you were one). And i don`t have to.``

Congratulations that, as an exercise of your free will, you have arrived at this conclusion in your individual capacity. Who can contest your right to have these views? Not me. Now, let me tell you what conclusion my free will has taken me to: ``Omar Mirza is a two bit twit.``

Reply #: 49 Umairr

``... My comments regarding Tie were not meant to suggest that Indian VCs are biased. Generally VCs are only biased in one direction; the direction of money. I also was not suggesting that Tie has any kind of negative impact on Pakistanis.``

I believe it`s a simple question of numbers that is at work here; there are significantly more Indians than Pakistanis. Maybe trying to reconcile a political paradigm in a business environment is too much to ask. I sincerely hope Pakistanis and other sub-continentals are as successful as Indians and, more important, they take their expertise back to their respective countries.

Dear Omar,

I agree with almost all of what you`ve said. The part I don`t agree on is the Turkish Model.

I don`t know if you read Re#9 by Omarphoenix, but what he said is quite true.

And believe me, we would be letting go of everything we associate with ourselves as Pakistanis to follow this Turkish Model.

In their attempts toward modernization and anti-arabism(whatever) they(Turks) have forgotten everything which was part of their culture. Now, what they call a part of their culture is wholly a foreign import. Yeah, there might be some exceptions, but believe me, they are very little.

What I believe our mistake has been is in our Politicizing Islam. This I believe to be our biggest mistake. And yeah, I too blame our politicians and mullahs for this.

MIK

This Article was written about 1 year ago on the Pakistani political situation. To demonstrate the consistency of my views, being published now.

Feudal Pakistan and Najam Sethi

Sharifistan today, and since virtually the early days of its independence has been run as a feudal fiefdom.

In this sense Nawaz Sharif and all his predecessors including Benazir Bhutto, Farooq Leghari, Ghulam Isaque Khan, Zia-ul-Haq, Z.A Bhutto, Yahya Khan, and Ayub Khan to name just some of the principals, all have a great deal in common. Their style of governance, whether they assumed power as elected representatives of the people, or through a military coup, has been the same. Regal and Authoritarian. The Mughals at the height of their power enjoyed what Nawaz Sharif insists on enjoying today; Absolute power. Louis XIV, King of France said it best, `I am the state.` This is Nawaz Sharif and every Sharifistani politician`s desire. Power is Personal. Individuals, not institutions exercise power in Feudal Sharifistan. The mentality of the divinely ordained ministers of the government of the day is striking, as is that of every petty government bureaucrat sitting behind a desk. They act like rulers sent down from the heavens, not representatives (or paid government servants) merely elected, (or employed) to serve. The state is their personal jagir. There is no trace of humility. Ah, yes, there is the form of public piety, which the rulers never tire of using the official government owned media to project. We see them praying in mosques, going on Umra, ever mindful of the cameras that follow them even as they kneel in Sijda.

Not being content with leading a party whose members are responsible for storming the Supreme Court, and Nawaz Sharif`s own victory over former Chief Justice Sajid Ali Shah in his confrontation with the government leading to Sajjad Ali Shah`s ouster, and emasculating the presidency to the point where the office is only now fit to be occupied by bearded eunuchs cum theologians, or bringing about the resignation of the CAS, or bringing the (admittedly corrupt) opposition party leaders to the verge of electoral disqualification, or passing midnight amendments and legislation without debate, which amounts to a virtual abuse of the parliamentary system, Nawaz Sharif launched a campaign against the dangers of a sometimes vocal, and critical press. Sharif it might be remembered even curbed parliamentary privileges of dissent under the guise of eliminating `horse trading`. Now he has decided that the Sharif Industrial group`s censors should also monitor Sharifistani citizens speeches outside the geographical frontiers of Sharifistan. That was a method to the madness. A very discernible pattern emerged.

We live today not in a democracy, but a Sharifocracy, which has among its peculiar features a constitutional curtailment on the right of the freely elected representatives of the people, to dissent from the Sharif line. Hitler too, was an elected representative of the people, lest it be forgotten.

It should be recalled what Mian Sahib has been quoted by Dawn as having said, in response to the press publishing critical articles against him in 1993, words to the effect that, `who cares what they publish, only 5% of the population reads newspapers anyway.` This displays his utter contempt for the masses, typical of a feudal lord`s attitude towards his serfs. Low literacy levels suit the feudal lord-cum politician class. For education leads a man to question the actions of the powers that be, and to learn to assert his own rights. Serfs make much more pliant subjects. Apparently, Mian Sahib`s attitude towards the press has undergone a sea change over the past 6 years; from one of contemptuous indifference to repressive intolerance.

It is no surprise that international organizations have rated Sharifistani citizens as being `partly free.` That is a true reflection of our national state of affairs. For what is freedom, if a man or woman cannot give voice to his or her opinions freely? When Newspapers cannot criticize the policies of the government of the day without being subject to selective prosecution? When journalists are intimidated and implicated in false cases and arrested in the middle of the night, and then the agencies of the state blatantly deny any knowledge of the person`s whereabouts. When a man asks the police for a warrant of his arrest, he receives abuse, and finds himself the victim of police brutality. What rights, what freedoms does a citizen of Pakistan enjoy today? The freedom to go to our mosques without let or hindrance? Is this the claim of the state`s accomplishments after 50 years? Muslims enjoyed this right even in pre-partition British India, and arguably enjoy this right even today in India. But I`m forgetting, we can also now claim to enjoy the privileges of being citizens of an (impoverished) Nuclear State! No matter, that one is subject to sectarian violence that does not even leave places of worship as sacrosanct, or subject to warrantless searches at the whim of any police officer, or being killed in the name of `honor,` and having the state`s representatives and even some of its `judiciary` approve of these heavy deeds. The cost to the state of the Raiwind upgrades of Rs.200 million can only be described as an Unconscionable act, which while technically legal, is on its face a clear case of unjust personal enrichment.

It is well known that voter turnout has sharply dropped in national elections, and was the lowest as a percentage of eligible voters in the last election which `gave` Mian Nawaz Sharif his `heavy mandate`. The voters are apathetic. Honest men do not rush to serve. No, Bank defaulters, feudals with vast land holdings, businessmen with vested interests in government contracts, tax evaders, charlatans, power thieves, felons with cases pending against them, crooks, scoundrels, pirates, mercenaries, brigands, rogues and rascals of the first order stand at the head of the line. These people are peddling snake oil as a cure all. The leader of each band of thieves that gets the most highway robbers `elected`, then sets about to divide the spoils. The golden fleece and choicest cuts of meats from the table of state, he or she naturally reserves for him or herself. The rest is thrown to the hogs who tumble over one another in their haste to swindle the government and its meager trough, made more so, by the all too frequent unfettered depredations upon its scarce resources by these coachmen holding the reins of state.

Mr.Malik Mohammad Hanif states (Dawn May 18th)

`At this juncture Sethi makes a damning speech in Delhi, not against the government of Nawaz Sharif but the State of Pakistan. His message: Pakistan is a ``failed state``. Such was the nature of his speech that the Pakistan High Commissioner in Delhi was constrained to describe it as ``treacherous``.

Many questions remain unanswered. As a letter in Dawn said, if this speech had been delivered anywhere else in the world it would have gone unnoticed. Why did Sethi do it in Delhi, of all places?`

I think Mr. Hanif is asking the wrong questions. Instead of accepting at face value, without more, that Mr.Sethi`s arrest was related to a breech of `national security,` as the Sharif Industrial group claimed, he should in fact be asking the following questions, a) How can a man be arrested without a warrant? Should we as a society tolerate something like this? b) Is there really protection of free speech in Pakistan? and c) as to what possible knowledge Mr.Sethi could have regarding national security which could possibly be breeched by his giving a public speech in India. If the man is an Indian agent, he must surely be a rare fool to `expose` himself in this manner. According to reports, Sharifistani intelligence has been unable to produce any evidence against Mr.Sethi to-date. Yet, the man remains in custody, arrested without a warrant, not produced before a judge as yet, treated brutally by the police party of 25 plus people that arrested him, and Mr.Hanif`s only questions are, `Who is he?`, `How come he made such a speech?`, `Why did he go to Delhi?, and `Why are certain people defending him?` As for Sethi`s speech, and the implication of Mr.Hanif`s characterization of the Ambassador`s remarks, I think Mr.Hanif is one of those advocates of safe speech, not free speech, who do not understand what freedom of speech means. It means tolerating speech one considers offensive and unpleasant, and views one disagrees with, that is a basic prerequisite to any `democracy`. That is the essence of freedom. But we have perhaps never had freedom in Pakistan, so how could Mr.Hanif recognize its elements? I blame him not. It is the Sharifistani cultural feudal environment that has conditioned him to think in this way. I pray he himself never has to be exposed to the tender mercies of a culpable politically motivated vendetta carried out by the agencies of the `elected` Sharif Financial group or for that matter, the `elected` Bhutto Loot, Pelf and Plunder Corp. I also note that the ambassador`s characterization of Sethi`s speech as treacherous was irrelevant. He is not judge and jury of permissible and impermissible speech. In fact he is no more than a paid, politically appointed agent cum lackey and approver of the Sharif Financial group, serving as its Delhi representative. I`d like to remind Mr.Hanif that travel to India is not in itself a crime, though his implication seems to suggest as much. I also note that the actual speech was published on The Friday Times website, until the website was hacked and disabled by, well lets see, at whose behest could that have been? Who could gain by such an act? I read the speech, and in my humble opinion Sethi talked about nothing that is not published in these columns everyday. His real crime was a synthesis of the various crises (economic, political, security, debt, foreign policy) facing the Sharif Financial group, formerly known as Pakistan, today, in essence drawing room talk, nothing more than published in Mr.Cawasjee`s columns in the past. a) No government secrets were revealed that would constitute sedition b) Mr.Sethi was not in an official position to be privy to any state secrets, c) The part relating to Pakistan was published in a Friday Times editorial prior to the speech. d) He did not actually call for the dismemberment of Sharifistan, but merely described its unstable domestic situation as that of a potentially `failed state.` e) Regarding Pakistan`s allegedly `failed national ideology`, it seems rulers since the day of Z.A Bhutto upto Mian Sahib have not yet learned any lessons from the catastrophic events of 1971, and the failure of national integration that led to the breakup of the country, but are instead bent on pursuing the same disastrous policies with even more gusto f) Sharif`s touted nuclear accomplishments cannot hide the systemic problems Sharifistan faces (including the institutional lack of rule of law of which ironically Sethi himself has become a victim), even more ironically Sharifistan`s economic problems mirror those of the Ittefaq group, not to be confused with the Sharif Financial/Industrial Multinational group which is in good health and prospering g) If you find this letter offensive and `treasonous`, then Sethi surely must be convicted without benefit of trial and hung, on the basis of his speech in Delhi alone, of the same. Also, perhaps, you should read Gulliver`s Travels more carefully.

I find the circumstantial evidence surrounding Sethi`s arrest very interesting. Given the well documented autocratic nature of the current regime of Sharifistan, the upcoming BBC documentary in the production of which Sethi collaborated, Sethi`s anti-government editorial stance, and the Sharif Industrial Group`s documented propensity to abuse power and attack any and all institutions including the press, Sethi`s arrest comes as no surprise at all. We (those of us who have not yet succumbed to the Orwellian Sharifistani propaganda machine) all know the real reason for his arrest. Yes, Sethi is guilty of the most unpardonable act of treachery of them all, he has betrayed his erstwhile friend Lord Sharif. For this Sethi surely must pay.

The truth is, we have always lived in Ayubistan, Bhuttistan, Ziasistan, Zardaristan and until today Sharifistan. We have never lived in Pakistan. Our citizenship changes as often as the sometimes elected, sometimes unelected Multinational Corporate Financial Groups that come to run it.

We should rebuild Pakistan, throw out the current discriminatory constitution, conduct an impartial process of accountability (unlike the Saifur Rehman led process which resembles the pot calling the kettle black), sweep the Augean stables clean, disqualify those from holding public office who have looted the coffers of the state through official malfeasance, stop allowing religion to be manipulated in the hands of cynical rulers affecting concern for the laws of G-D and our fates in the hereafter, and return to the ideals of Quaid e Azam, M.A Jinnah. The state has utterly failed to protect the lives, liberties, property or right to happiness of its citizens (indeed it seems as if happiness is only a privilege one gets by joining the inner coterie of the Sharif Financial Group). The last refuge of the scoundrel is not just patriotism as the old saying goes, but in Pakistan, it is also religion. Nawaz Sharif wants to rule by divine right. He is not the first. He must be stopped. They must all be stopped. This is the first salvo on behalf of the benighted citizens of Pakistan. Take heed, we may be few, but we cannot all be taken by the ISI. And we will fight to take back our country and oust the usurpers. I take note again of the difference between a citizen and a serf.

Attention goons and spooks of Sharifistan. When the wind is southerly, i know a hawk from a handsaw. Do you?

Serfs of Sharifistan unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains! Sethi`s freedom today, ours tomorrow. Instead of committing useless acts of self-immolation, do something more constructive with that despair. The heavy hand of state censorship (direct or indirect) is but the first sign of a diseased and corrupted body politic.

Sethi said no more than I have.



Omar Mirza

Re: Satyavadi

Let me make something clear, since you seem confused. I don`t much care for Sikhs, Indians, or India as a country. Never have, never will.

My commitment to the ideals of justice and equality in society however, has nothing to do with my personal distastes for certain groups of people`s behavior in the past. I`m allowed to personally dislike anyone i like. Its my G-D given right. I don`t choose Indians as my friends and i don`t have to. BUT, the difference is i am an individual, not the state. Just as i believe accused rapists and murderers deserve the right to a defence/counsel ardently under the law, and am willing if necessary to defend them (even those pleading guilty). BUT do I have to like them? Mingle with them socially? HECK NO! And don`t want to anymore than i do with Indians.

But like with any rapist or murderer, i certainly will not oppose equal treatment under the law for anyone, just because they are Indian, Sikh, Hindu, whatever. Thats a whole `nother story! Jewish & black lawyers in the U.S file briefs on behalf of the KKK and provide them with competent counsel. I doubt they attend their rallies to cheer them on enthusiastically.

Let me also make it clear that about the only thing in the world that i loathe more than the state of India, is the perversion of religion for political ends by Mullahs in Pakistan,(just as by RSS/BJP/Bajrang Dal in India)and consequent Mullahfication that has gripped Pakistani society, to the detriment of social progress and reason.

Its unfortunate that the same Jihadis in Muridke, that fight Indian state terrorism in Kashmir, are equally intolerant at home within Pakistan in their views. If we could possibly seperate Kashmir from domestic radicalization, i could give a hoot what goes on over there. Since it is not possible, I oppose further involvement with Kashmir, in Pakistan`s National Interest, not because i have developed a sudden love of hypocritical India, or Indians.

The minorities in Pakistan have nothing to do with Kashmir, and should not be treated unequally in the eyes of the law for being non-muslim. I have also opposed the treatment of women (discrimination on the basis of gender) in Pakistan, due to the misapplication of Islamic law (See my article on Chowk). The problem is/has always been, once religion enters politics, obscurantists obtain legitimacy, respectability.

Since `Jihad` in Kashmir unfortunately also fuels domestic intolerance (the basis for legal inequality), i want the annual functions at Muridke to stop as well. I don`t have to like anyone to live in a civil society, just tolerate them (and i have nothing against minorities in Pakistan, whether Sikh, Hindu or whatever).

I have always felt that one should treat others by putting oneself in their shoes first, and asking how one would like to be treated. I see no contradiction in anything i have ever said in the past or today. I still don`t like Indians, in general, Sikhs in particular (hence the grin in that post, not because i thought you were one). And i don`t have to.

As for entering politics, sorry pal, thats just not my ambition in life for the forseeable future.

OMAR MIRZA

Don`t want to break the entertaining India- Pakistan digital attacks and counter attacks. However, here is a genuine common cause to cheer for:

The ICC President, Mr Jagmohan Dalmiya, today announced the sides selected to play in the ICC Cricketnext.Com Cricket Week, Asia v the Rest of the World match, as follows:

ASIA Wasim Akram (Captain) Sanath Jayasuriya (Vice-Captain),Moin Khan (Wicket-Keeper), Saeed Anwar, Sachin Tendulkar, Aravinda de Silva, Ajay Jadeja, Abdur Razzaq, Robin Singh, Anil Kumble, Muttiah Muralitharan, Shoaib Akhtar

REST OF THE WORLD

Brian Lara (Captain), Mark Waugh (Vice-Captain), Adam Gilchrist (Wicket-Keeper), Jacques Kallis, Michael Bevan, Lance Klusener, Neil Johnson, Chris Cairns, Daniel Vettori, Curtly Ambrose, Allan Donald, Andrew Caddick











This match will be held at the Bangabandhu National Stadium, Dhaka on Saturday 8th April.

tvarad: My comments regarding Tie were not meant to suggest that Indian VCs are biased. Generally VCs are only biased in one direction; the direction of money. I also was not suggesting that Tie has any kind of negative impact on Pakistanis.

I am all for organizations that look after their communities, without harming other communities. I was only suggesting that Tie is now basically an organization of Indian entrepreneurs, helping Indian entrepreneurs, and not an organization of Indus entrepreneurs. There is nothing wrong with this.

It is human nature that if a group of people from one country get together, there joint efforts will be towards helping their own country; even if their organization was initially designed to cater to a broader audience. Again nothing wrong with this. There are Pakistani medical organizations that consist of individuals who perform free surgeries in Pakistan, with the help of their organizations.

If I were to join Tie, and try to help an educational institution in Pakistan, I am sure no one in Tie would stop me. However, I think the direction of the organization itself, is towards helping India (through collective and individual efforts). In that sense, I think it has basically become an Indian organization. Again, there is nothing wrong with that.

Your remarks about entreprenuership and self belief are quite accurate.

Amit #6 writes: ``If only India and Pakistan can become allies instead of enemies, we can jointly...`` Agreed so far.

May I however complete this sentence differently than the way you had it. That is, you end the above sentence with: ``...become a superpower``. I would suggest ``...become one more region of security and prosperity on earth, a region with malice towards none``.

The last part (malice towards none) is of course from Abraham Lincoln. The idea of ``malice towards none`` is in my opinion one of the most powerful ideas of the past millenium, and one that will be the distinguishing feature of successful people in the emerging global economy.

Omar, Re # 30,

``Attention Satyavadi:

Khalsas Unite! You have nothing to lose but your chains! :)

Cheers!

Dear Omar,

Your point on `Oi Afghan, go back to your home` has lit a 40-watt bulb on top of my head. If this was England and a white dude was to say Oi Paki, go home, all you Omar Mirza`s and Kulsoom bibis would pick up a riot. `How dare these `racialists` kick us out of our home. We pay our taxes.` Pakistan, despite I love the country, is not a land of milk and honey. Instead it`s a land of watered down milk and cows shite. It`s not as if the Afghans are siphoning off all that goodness which makes Pakistan. I also agree that they are responsible for a lot of drug problems in Pakistan today. But have you ever bothered thinking that this drug trade contributes a major portion towards Pakistan`s GNP. Afghanis are living their own lives at the end of the day. It`s not as if they`re feeding on Social Security Benefits (Ha Ha what a ridiculous thought) supplied by the Pakistani Government. So next time we tell an Afghani, `Oi NO, go back home` just think of the that White National Front skin head who thinks Pakis should go home because they have made my his miserable!!!

Today I went to Amadou Diallo verdict protest here

at my University in the United States. It showed me the real picture ... the inequality inherent to this country. United States is a great country based on a great ideal but I wonder if Diallo had read the inscription beneath the Lady of liberty over on Liberty Island New York.

Whereas I totally agree with Omar Mirza in all of his views especially on Attaturk to say that US is the ideal is not right. No US is not the DarulHarb but there is no denying the fact that the anti US sentiment that is so apparent in muslims all around the world is because of hostile US foreign policy and even its policies towards its own minorities ...

Speak oh Lady of Liberty speak ... when will this night of oppression end not only in the US but all over the world?

To Qalandar

Friend, the question you raise has a congenital flaw. No individual can, or ever could derail an entire social system.

It was NOT Zia who staged the coup against Bhutto.

It was the GHQ.

Re; Iqadeer #41

`Taliban cannot be blamed for Afghanistan`s financial woes.`

I`m not blaming them for `Afghanistan`s financial woes.`

I am however holding them fully responsible for conducting a JIHAD against Shias (whom i consider muslims, and human beings). The Afghan civil war going on is nothing more than that at one level, a Shia-Sunni fight. Have you forgotten the widely publicized killings of shias? At another level it is Pakistani supported Taliban (I never liked that socially regressive Fundo Gulbuddin Hekmakyar either, before them) Vs. Iran, Central Asian, Russian & Indian supported Northern Alliance.

My point is that Freedom of Conscience means Freedom of Conscience. It is not my purpose to debate the merits or demerits of Islam or any other religion. Simply stated, you cannot convince a Hindu thru rational argument of the superiority of Islam, nor he you, of the superiority of Hinduism. But in Pakistan people still have to live together. There should be NO DISCRIMINATION on the basis of religion, gender, caste, ethnicity tolerated by the law.

I want a civil society, not a theocracy for Pakistan. READ MY LIPS, NO MORE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF PAKISTAN. No more legitimacy accorded to fanaticism. As long as religion is mixed with politics, people will distort it, abuse it, and be INTOLERANT of the views of others who disagree with them. My answer is simple, don`t let them do that by legitimising its use this way.

How much bloodshed do we have to tolerate in the name of religion until you say enough already, its NOT the business of the modern state? Have you ever also thought that people also have the right NOT to be identified with a religion just because they are born into it, and hence every right to refuse to abide by religious laws some may choose to follow, on the basis of Freedom of Conscience?

I know the G-D i worship, and what my obligations are. I don`t need anyone to tell me how to live my life according to Islam. I`ll be the sole judge of that in this life. And Allah can judge me in the hereafter. Now exactly where

do you, and the Islamic republic fit into this scheme?

This is precisely why I proclaim loudly that i am a resident of dar ul harb, NY. I`m thinking of having T-shirts printed with this logo on it.

The classic Islamic World view divides the world into, `Dar ul Islam` & `Dar ul harb` (the abode of peace/Islamic countries & the abode of War/non-Islamic countries, respectively). BUT there is far more religious tolerance in the U.S, (the abode of war) than in any of the Islamic countries comprising dar ul Islam. Thats the irony. Take a guess why. If you don`t know, read the First Amendment to the U.S Constitution.

OMAR MIRZA