Talibanization or the Turkish Model?

sadna #173 It is always a pleasure to read your knowledgable posts, and I have certainly learnt a lot about the dynamics underlying Indian politics from your last two posts. I agree with your conclusion that we should not give up too easily on democracy. Actually, in Pakistan a key element of democracy - a free press - still continues to function. By trying to demolish democratic institutions and arrogate power to himself, Nawaz Sharif was (unfortunately for all of us) short-sighted enough to chop off from under himself the very ladder on which he stood. So the military take over was inevitable. I pray though that we are able to successfully introduce democratic institutions at the local level later this year as planned.

Splitting of parties may, as you say, be a substitute for replacing failed party leaders with new faces. It may even have worked in India. However, wouldnt that result in too many parties, leading to unstable coalition governments?

Regards.

A very well written piece indeed!

This is my first visit to chowk and am immensely impressed with the pakistanis.

As humans, we all should be against these jihadis and bajrang dals.

I think the ``present form`` of religion(let it be hinduism or islam) is not the true one.

All the heads of these religious institutions are playing games with the common man.

I have serious question to you omar.

I have been arguing with some of my stupid friends that islam is a very good religion but am unable to convince them.They bring out the issues of polygamy or honour killings or something else.

My response was , there used to be a stage in india when rituals like sati ( burning of a widow) and caste system used to be followed in the name of religion which are against the very sense of human values.We are slowly trying to come out of this and it must be the same situation in pakistan that is going on and those acts are entirely unislamic(am i right?)

Why can`t people be just human?(ohhhh...)

Why don`t we discuss some practical steps towards peace in both the countries.(maybe form some sort of group to help the victims come out of their trauma.)What i read from other sites, i am unable to digest the concept of honour killings.

I think these things should be highlighted again and again in the newspapers until we bring an end to it.

Media is the key.They should behave more responsibly.

Regarding the kashmir issue,neither pakistan believes india nor india believes pakistan.I still don`t understand where we went wrong.Indian govt. always sees ISI and pakistan govt. always sees RAW.

I think nobody knows the perfect truth and hence the confusion.

After 50 years i think we should come out of all this(but how?).

Pakistani people see indian tv channels and enjoy indian movies.We, indians enjoy listening to NFAK.

I love the junoon band(azaadi).

The only solution me thinks is both the indian and pakistani newspapers and media bring out the stories on both sides so that we can live in harmony.

Regards,

Krishna

P.S

Conclusive Evidence of RAW operation:

Real Jihadis don`t spare anyone (not even womyn and children).

OMAR1974,

post#185

What are you expecting from a lame duck and a cooked goose? and his country?--- cesspool and cinders!

Blow a little harder----the edifice is moth eaten and termite infested-- it will crumble quicker than the soviets.

I,ve always wondered whether you jest or you really drink(alcohol).What other `modern` practises you are proud of? You see,children can be taught by showing them examples of failure as well.

You are a good one!!

Gymnosophist,

It is true that Zakir Hussain was prosecuted. The judge ruled that temple is the `sanctum sanctorum`, the place where the idol is situated, and as such Zakir Hussain did not enter the temple. In fact no hindu other than the pujari enters the `temple` according to the judge.

In the case of Jesudas, he made a statement the `he believes in hinduism also` and the judge ruled that that is enough to be a hindu.

The above are instances where the earlier laws based on narrow religious beliefs have been enlarged by the progressive judiciary.

It is depressing to see Ali1 bent on declaring people as non-muslims, all because of the prevailing legal framework of blasphemy and the jihadic appropriation of everything that belongs to kafirs. I wish him prosperity after the collapse of pakistan as we know it.

The `riba` judgement and the `honour killing` are cases where the laws are bent by the judiciary to take our neighbours a few centuries backwards.

Regards

jay.

Re: SIKH MASSACRE IN KASHMIR



While i do think Jehadi politics in Pakistan is destructive, and unreservedly condemn religious extremism, I believe some details regarding the massacre of 36 Sikhs are interesting.

#1 The area was under the control of x-Kashmiri-militants now in the pay of the Indian army.

#2 The attempt by Gen. Pervaiz Musharraf to distinguish `Jihad` as legitimate from `terrorism` recently.

#3 The arrival of Clinton in India as a prelude to his 6 hour visit to Pakistan.

Frankly I think the whole thing was masterminded by RAW to put pressure on Pakistan via Clinton, when he visits there, and make the `jihadis` appear to be terrorists in the eyes of the world media which is focused on India right now, and thus discredit the Paki-Kashmiri freedom struggle. Not that i particularly care how the jihadis are painted, because i think the `jihad` in Kashmir by Paki fanatics must end in order for peace in the subcontinent, and for the 2 parties to start talking to each other, for sanity to return, and for 2 nuclear armed neighbours to reduce military spending and stop confrontation and achieve progress in poverty alleviation and education and basic healthcare (by diverting funds from military spending). So, if RAW is behind this, and manages to discredit the jihadis, thus putting pressure on Pakistan to end its support of jehadis in Kashmir, that may not be a bad thing for long term peace in the subcontinent. Since the jihadis cannot liberate Kashmir, peace can only be achieved if one side backs down. And it`ll be a start in turning the clock back on domestic radicalization in akistani society itself, which is fueled by the `Kashmiri Jihad.` Once jihadi-fundos are deligitimized, the army can crack down on them in Pakistan.

But my heartfelt sympathies to the Sikhs killed, and their families, they are just pawns in this game between India-Pakistan over Kashmir.

OMAR MIRZA

And it was always believed that Sikhs start killings of innocent people ...

SRINAGAR, India, March 21 (AFP) -

Muslim militants massacred 35 Sikhs when they descended upon a village in troubled Kashmir, police said here Tuesday. About 30-40 militants raided Chadisinghpoora village, 70 kilometres south of here, late Monday evening and carried out the massacre, a police spokesman said. News of the massacre emerged as US President Bill Clinton kicks off the Indian leg of his South Asia tour here Tuesday.

The police spokesman said the militants marched villagers from their houses and gathered them in the centre of the village. They separated women villagers from among the crowd and then opened fire on the men, he added. Some 34 Sikhs aged between 18 and 40 died on the spot under the hail of bullets while two more were critically injured. One of them later died while being transported to hospital. The village is a predominantly Sikh village. Security forces in Anandnag district later arrived at the scene and sealed off the village and surrounding areas in an attempt to track down the militants. No group has claimed responsibility for the attack.

Ref Jay #: 177

Don`t say things even in jest because people do take you seriously.

{In India it is an offence for a non hindu to enter a temple.}

Rarely prosecuted. Mostly, non-Hindus are asked by temple officials to leave the premises if discovered. In highly publicized cases, some zealot may file a lawsuit.

You say {Zakir Hussain an ex vice president was prosecuted for entering Tirupati temple in Andhra Pradesh.}

While he might have visited Tirupati when he was the Vice President, Zakir Hussain later became the President, didn`t he? Anyway, at least he was not fatwa`ed by the mullahs. I am sure the lawsuit would have been dismissed as the petitioner had no standing in the matter.

You say {Jesudas, a christian singer was prosecuted for entering Guruvayoor Temple in Kerala.}

Wan`t the controversy about having him inside the courtyard of the temple for a concert? And it was resolved by erecting a stage facing the temple from where he could sing?

Again, no Christian priest denounced him as an apostate for wanting to sing the praises of Lord Krishna.

A couple of years back, Jesudas set to classical music a couple of lines from the Qur`aan and sang it during his concert tour of Bahrain and the Persian Gulf states. He sang the same song here in the Bay Area inside the Hindu Temple in Livermore. Nobody objected to that either. Fundamentalist Muslims might have objected to his changing the tune from whatever has been the tradition to the Raga Anand Bhairavi but they weren`t in the audience.

Useless information to clutter up your mind.

The people of Pakistan certainly deserve a
new deal. Our nationhood was first hacked
into two (1971) by our then ``secular`` rulers,
and has since been under threat from the bigots
that have been produced in large numbers ever
since (of the ``religious`` orientation).
People who love Pakistan have themselves been
treated rather shabbily under both ``democratic``
and Military rule.
While the rulers of Pakistan play vindictive power games within themselves or on behalf of
others, we wait and watch for what is next...

Ras

The politics of unceasing so-called holy war must end. They have destroyed Pakistani society. The interests of Jihadis and the State of Pakistan are not one and the same, and the sooner Pakistanis realize this, the better. In the name of Jihad they will/have destroyed Pakistani society. It is simply not possible to have a rational discourse with illiterate fundos hell bent on a religious crusade, and martyrdom. These people have made violence an everyday norm in Pakistan. Jehadi politics must end.



OMAR MIRZA

Ali

You write:

`` When non-muslims call me a Mullah and a Mullah calls me a fan of ``drinking, fornicating, lechery``, it convinces me that I am indeed on the right path.``

On the contrary, you are wrong on both counts. The correct conclusion is... you are messed up either ways. You have taken the boneheaded zeal and dumbwit from the zealots but not their convictions and piety. You lack the open mind and logic of the secularists but chose the indulgence which is often a by-product of the rejection of authority. Funny side point.. you seem to be proud of your drinking and other hobbies ( or are they professions?)

You write:

``As for Hindus, why would a penis worshipper worry if you start worshipping another part of the body?``

You deceived me here. I did not know you where this sick. I hope and pray to Allah(.. the very same that you claim to pray to..)that your country is not as sick as you are. Now on I am going to ignore your posts. Thank you for the discourse.

I agree with most of your article. But you are wrong on one count: the Turkish model. That is not a secular model, it`s an actively anti-religious model. In my mind, in a secular state, the state has no business to force you to adopt or reject any religious act (like scarf for a woman). Also, state or its organs (legitimate or illegitimate) should not interfere with the choice of the people in running their affairs through a democratically elected government.

Ali1,

INCLUSIVE HINDU P/../IS/

In India it is an offence for a non hindu to enter a temple. Zakir Hussain an ex vice president was prosecuted for entering Tirupati temple in Andhra Pradesh. Jesudas, a christian singer was prosecuted for entering Guruvayoor Temple in Kerala.

Both were sentenced for very long prison terms and they died in prison.

The judgement defined who is a hindu and what constitutes temple from a legal perspective.

This is just to make my friend happy and to tease a few others, though the first para is true.

Dear Mr. Omer Mirza,

I couldn`t agree with you more. A very well written article. Congratulations.

Its not JUST about desi womyn Yassir. Did you carefully read replies #67 & #69 directed at you on my article below or not? Seems like you haven`t. So read them again, and maybe you`ll get the msg, if not from me, then AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL, Italy Group (#69), and realize why your writing this poem and lamenting ``this night of oppression`` in the USA is so utterly ridiculous to all of us, especially since you`re a Paki student who has been here only under 2 years studying talking about it.

OMAR MIRZA

That day should not be far when Pakistan will realize that by creating Taliban, it has, in fact, let a gene out of its bottle-- a gene which eats those very hands that feed it. The contribution of US to Afghan resistance, which sucessfully threw Russia out of Kabul, was by no means insignificant or peanuts. US provided ultra modern hardware, financial assitance, international support etc. And yet, the first one to get burnt from ``freed` Afghans was US. Pakistan may be next. There are many elements in Pakistan who pat themselves at the back for creating and supporting Taliban. They argue that by creating Taliban, Pakistan has insulated itself from any problems through Pak-Afghan border and now, Pakistan can concentrate against India. Is it so ? The damage that has flown to Pakistan through Kabul is enormous. Only you need to see it. Taliban have made it clear what type of Islam they believe in and have actually installed that kind of Islam. They have also shown clearly that they are absolutely inflexible as to what kind of Islam this World should have. The problem is that from the day Pakistan was born, Pakistanis have been consistently voting out this kind or any kind of hard religious route. And, there are elements in Pakistan who are equally sure what kind of Islam they want. This incompatibility is not a big problem as long as Pakistan is feeding Taliban. But how long this truce will be there, is any body`s guess. The first crack has however, appeared. Taliban have recognized Checneya; but Pakistan has not.