The Bombing

test

Reply #: 169 SR / temporal

I really think it`s a great idea; one that should be taken seriously; for Temporal`s plot to be developed into a novel. The Tom Clancy`esque technological precision that you are arguing about may not be significant in view of the wider scope of t`s projected scenario, which is rather superior to say ``The hunt for Red October``

You guys are talented in literary arts and I wish you would actually co-author ``The Bombing``.

Rgds.

I hope the verses posted on the Chowk should carry their translation for non-Arabic, non-Persian speaking desis or the poetry should be simple enough for all to understand, as in the case of the verse, in my last post:

Rab ka shukr ada kar bhai

jis naiN hamari gaye bhulai

I am surprised that no one questioned the deliberate replacement of ``banai`` with ``bhulai``. Let me tranaslate and explain this verse for the masters of Arabic and Persian languages here at chowk. Why do one needs those languages when our Urdu is excellent for expressing all sort of thoughts and emotions. So dear Chowkwallas, did your understanding of this verse was same as I intended.

Explanation: Brother, lets thank God for letting us forget the reverence for cows which we used to held sacred as Gaomata, before we converted willingly and happily to Islam. What a rapture! We can even eat them now. Thank Lord for sending peace-loving and women-hating Sufis so that we can have Rib-eye and T-bone steaks after few hundred years.

Few Als, Wals and Uls are not a heavy price for being able to stick teeth into juicy meat.

There is one country whose religious observations have had to undergo tremendous changes in view of the occupation of that country and the destruction of 95% of its religious buildings and expulsion of the priesthood.

I am referring to Tibet.

The Buddhists of Tibet agree that it is more important to hold on to their religious beliefs and culture and that this has been done by re-creating traditional Tibetan schools and monasteries in India and elsewhere and by preserving Buddhist texts. Yes, they would like to go back to Lhasa but if that means taking up arms against the Chinese -- a position antithetical to Buddhism which preaches non-violence -- they prefer not to take up arms.

The practice of the principles of the religion of Lamaist-Buddhism is more important to them than even pilgrimages such as the circumambulation of Mt. Kailash or Lake Manasarovar which an expatriate Tibetan cannot undertake anymore because of the Chinese occupation of Tibet.

They seem to have figured out what is more important: religious observance in the spirit or to the letter. A lesson that some Muslims may want to learn about and learn from. Unfortunately, those who seem to be most in need of such a lesson tend to believe that the Quran is the equivalent of ``Life`s Little Instruction Book``.

I recommend the book ``The Jew in the Lotus`` by Rodger Kamenetz to those who are interested in finding out more about the Tibetans` attempts to preserve their religion from a catastrophe of much greater magnitude than the destruction of one principal shrine.

OMAR1974:#168

I am glad you like Mirza Ghalib.I am also trying hard to convince myself that you like him because of his poetry.

So here is a treat for you:

``Mazsda aye zauq e Aseeree keh nazar aata haye

daam khalee quafas e murgh e griftaar kay pass.``

translating it would ruin it.More so it is specially for you!!!.This answers all your posts to me on this & other boards.



wassalaam

[``…Money or fame don`t interest me … co-author if you agree to manage and invest my share into a temporal trust. … in Oman or Southern Iran…provide … for the relief of sub continental cities … exposed to nuclear devastation…AND agree to…do the talk show circuit and plug away the book…``]

This sounds like a real deal.

Fame does not interest me either. Money, however, is a different matter! Money is unjustly maligned as a source of evil. It is not. There is nothing at wrong with money per se, it is the `lust of acquisition` that is really the root of much evil. Money is simply a tool that can be employed for good as well as evil. It is `potential energy` that is readily convertible to `kinetic energy` to do `work`. Though still a `msst malang` at heart, in my graying years, I`ve recanted my earlier `fikiri` stance and have learnt to welcome monetary gain because it represents `open options`. Options to help others or self indulge, as the case may be.

With your half of the proceeds we shall buy up the entire Army Navy Surplus stocks of tents and clothing. For medicines, we`ll have to seek donations, because my half of the proceeds will certainly not go to the drug companies. Besides, radiation sickness is incurable. All we can do is provide pain relief to the victims while their tissues gradually disintegrate. For pain relief I`d much rather pay Osama bin Laden for his cheap opium, sold by the kiloton, than pay a dime to the likes of Merk or Pfizer.

Your pessimism regarding the possibility of nuclear devastation in the subcontinent may not be too misplaced. The possibilities are there because all the elements are in place. The low value placed on `human biomass` (lets not even use the phrase `human life` for it is emotionally charged and gives rise to empty slogans) in that part of the world further erodes one`s optimism.


[``…As for the 72 minutes --- planes in 2020 will be capable of flying at 3 to 5 mach …carrying multiple air to air warheads ..attacks .. targets upto 500-800 miles away; the pilot can be hundreds of miles away when launching these missiles. He could effectively record their `kills` and return in 72 minutes…``]

Your friend sounds more inspired than informed. It is an unimportant tangent, but since the likes of Tom Clancy have already muddied the book-buyers` minds, we have to look into issues of techno-feasibility of our plot.

There is only one little problem with this futuristic warplane of ours: the laws of physics.

Even if we are to somehow rationally explain away how Major Uri acquired all the nuclear weapons security codes (they are not mere hand grenades which, if triggered and tossed away, will explode), it remains improbable that he, unaided, can make that round trip to Mecca with a Mediani detour. The missiles you refer to (the ones that acquire multiple targets - the so-called ``Fire-and-forget`` missiles) are of the `air-to-air` kind. Their aim is simply to blow away another airplane. Their `pay load` is very light, a few hundred grams at most. Rest of the weight is in rocket-fuel. Even then 500-800 miles is utter fantasy. The size of a missile capable of traveling that far will be too large to be carried by an agile war-plane. The planned air-to-air missiles you are talking about are going to be more in the 50 to 80 mile range. Just one Zero less. But those missiles are not even relevant. What Major Uri needs is not just one, but two, air-to-surface missiles capable of carrying nuclear warheads. The smallest, most advanced, nuclear warheads couldn`t possibly be lighter than a thousand kilograms or so (is that about right, Dr. Physicist? My high school science is being stretched here). This means two thousand kilograms of payload. That`s getting heavy already without having to add rocket fuel to further launch these bombs as missile warheads.

See, if you are going to use an airplane as a delivery system, then the bombs are going to be fueled by gravity and inertia only. It makes no sense to fly a plane half way and then launch a missile. Weapons designers simply can`t sell such ideas to weapons buyers. Nuclear weapons are delivered either through a ballistic missile, a cruise missile or simply dropped from a plane. There are no hybrid delivery systems.

Come to think of it, we really need to go back to the drawing boards are come up with an alternate catastrophe scenario.

How about some Cossack terrorists planting a stolen Russian nuke in Mecca. (Let`s spare Medina, I beseech you, after all blowing up the kaaba should be enough to move the plot.) I realize it has to be a nuke. (Biologic or chemical weapons won`t do because you are not looking to kill a bunch of faithful mussalmeen as your plot`s main heinous act. It`s the destruction of the kaaba that moves the story line.)

Your main theme, i.e., `Hajj on wheels`, has a very rational appeal, I really like it. I only wish it could be accomplished without nuking a million hajjis. But, then the book won`t sell and we shall not be able to built the tent city for the radio active South Asian refugees in Oman.

Cheers!

...SR

FARANGI KUSH has now taken to quoting my favorite poet, Mirza Ghalib! Will wonders never cease! Most of his poetry (whether talking about Iman or not) was composed in a state of drunkenness, and what obscurantists would term moral debauchery today. Indeed, he is well known for composing paens in favor of drunkenness and odes to imbibing intoxicants. I`d be careful quoting him ! He would surely have offered you a glass of wine if you visited him, and chose to expound your Taliban philosophy and rule by unelected ulema as the panacea for the problems the Muslim world is facing!

Cheers!

OMAR MIRZA

Sameer #165:

Thanks for your interesting post.

Two phrases I will highlight from it: `middle of the road` and `peaceful co-existence`.

This morning conversing with a friend who is a closet fundamentalist, commenting on the cold blooded murder of those innocent Sikhs, I said ``My God is not their (murderer`s) God.`` He was taken aback. Poor soul.

If the moderates stand up, regardless of religion or politics, the world would be a better place.

regards

t

P.S. Am enjoying your posts and other responses on the Life article.

SameerJB

post---# 165

Eeman mujhe roakay hai tho khainchay hai mujhay kufr

Kaaba meray peechhay hai kaleesa meray aagay.

---------Mirza Assadullah Khan Ghalib

Ghalib-e Naam Avram,Naam-o namood mprus

Hm Assadullah hm,Hm Assadullah hm.

Devotee & servant of Hazrat Ali ibn Abi Taalib.

Jaan Mohammed Khan

Safar Aasaan Naheen--

It is not easy to run away from Islam & its arab roots.It tames everyone as that great EQUALISER of humanity called DEATH nears.Many a headstrong bulls been cowed-down by IT.

Afraid? you`re o.k

temporal, I am not knowledgeable enough to respond to your excellent question. You may or may not find any relevant response in this post, to your following questions:

1: There is a need to define ritual and dogma, universalism as in truth, beauty and justice, and if possible to discuss them from both religious and social perspectives.

2: Qur’an is clear as well as vague. It could be understood by the simple Bedouins, as well as the scientific mind down the centuries. Does this underline its inherent flexibility? If the answer is in affirmative, what happened to the flexibility?

3: Are all Qur’anic injunctions for all times? Say, slavery or polygamy?

4: Are Muslims the ‘final’ of the chosen people?

5: Can a person be a good being and not a Muslim?

Most major religions can be classified in a variety of ways. One such understanding comes from the culture and society in which they originated. Most middle eastern religions originated in the tribal societies. These societies are usually small and the power lied with usually one individual, the tribal chief. These were very authoritarian and paternalistic societies. The moral and social ethic were simple and straight forward. These were the societies of “ones”. There were one of everything, one tribal chief, one shrine, one market place, one oasis, one main street, one court, one judge and so on. It is then understandable that one God concept would be the logical spiritual transcendent authority. Due to the rigidity of the society, the God would also be very authoritarian and powerful who would demand strict obedience and submission. This concept of God would be so scary that His fear would sweat children palms and wet their pants for the fear of committing a sin even of childish nature. There would not be any margin of flexibility in the dogma and the rituals. Next category is city states, case in point; Greeks. In cities, power is distributed out of necessity. There would be a separate mayor, tax collector, religious leader, sanitation head, police chief etc., etc. Moreover, there will be several markets, streets, communities and so on. Such social structures would lead to religions with many gods, the Polytheism. There would be a complex relationship among as much as 1000+ gods. All these deities could be considered a manifestation of the lead deity as all official would report to the city mayor or head of the city state. These gods are less scary and demanding as compared to the tribal gods because people are used to moving from one department to another without fearing retribution from the previous boss. The third category is agrarian societies. The hallmark of the agrarian societies is large populations. Due to the settled life, food storage and developing immunity to many crops-born and domesticated animal-born diseases, the population increases very rapidly and in few hundred years, as in the case of India and China, amounts to many fold increase than the comparative tribal and pastoral societies. In such circumstances, it would have been difficult for any particular seer to effectively communicate most of the people. As the message would move from one segment of the population to another, it would start blending with the local beliefs and traditions. In the end, there would be only some very abstract beliefs on the top with very lose dogma and ritual structures at the practice level, much more in accordance with the local conditions. An example is Hinduism which does not have one particular Prophet for all to follow. With such diverse conditions of origins, it is difficult to have a universal dogma and even more difficult to have universal rituals agreeable to all humanity.

There has been a continuous trend toward urbanization. It is quite possible to have most of humanity living in the cities in few hundred years. Such conditions might lead to some kind of transformation of existing religions where they may overlap one another. There is already a common philosophy developing in most major cities, called Materialism. So far it is mostly ritualistic in nature. But with time this may develop certain abstract thoughts, e.g., based on love, thinking (knowledge) and peace. There have already been several religious group, much more popular in the major cities than the rural areas, namely Unitarian Universalist Churches, Zen Buddhism and many new age group with a mixture of eastern and western thoughts.

Quran provided a complete and perfect way of living to the Bedouin society. They were familiar with the stories of the Jewish Prophets; they could understand the terminology, Arabic language and the description of common use items like dates, olives, camels and sheep etc. However, it required new explanation when it moved out of those societies and many scholars did that for the people who have never seen dates or olives; people who lived under different set of conditions. Now the Muslim population is very large and diverse and divided into various sects and different cultures; it will not be possible for most of them to agree to any one explanation. For this reason, I supported the idea of taking Quran to the level of heart; loving it without expecting answers to day-to-day modern life. Love transcends all expectations. A true love does not demand anything from the beloved, not even the union. It is not to say that Quran does not have relevent moral or ethical rules, it is rather necessitated by the conditions to read it for spiritual purposes only. The terminology of the level of the heart and the level of the mind is merely symbolic; in reality all actions, except reflex actions are controlled by the brain. What I really mean to say is that Quran should be deeply loved without pondering over the explanation of its contents. It could then be said that we love Quran as much as Bedouins once did. A love for Quran is also personal and subjective whereas the affairs of the state are collective. This would effectively separate the state and religion.

It is possible to believe in the creation theory or that the earth is the center of the universe and still have a happy productive life. It is also possible to believe in the jinn power and yet perform good work in the areas of hydrocarbons or solar energy. The life of a farmer would not change whether he believes in earth being the center or not. Why then we expect most people to believe the current understandings of science? This question was once asked by a student of famous mythology teacher, Joseph Campbell and his answer was, “ dogs are perfectly happy with the conditions of being fed by their owners and chained around their necks---their life has not been changed for thousand of years-----but then it is dogs life. You have a choice”. It is the property of human mind to inquire about the unknown. An inquiry does not have to have a beneficial motive.

In one of the recent post, sac put it very bluntly by saying ,”some Muslims feel that Islam has failed them”. He does have a point, though he could have said it differently, something like, “many Muslims are disappointed because Islam has not met their expectations”. This is more of a case of the level of expectations. Since childhood we have been repeatedly told of Islam as the absolute truth, the best, the final literal words of God, delivered to the Chosen people from the line of Abraham. It is this superiority complex which build irrational expectations leading to disappointment when expectations are not fulfilled. A typical mullah’s answer would be to not ask what Islam can do for you but what you can do for Islam and you will be properly rewarded in the afterlife. This is similar to what conservative black preachers used to tell the slaves that God has chosen you to serve your masters; perform your obligations dutifully and you will be properly rewarded in afterlife. Best solution to not be disappointed is the lowering of expectation. It will also lower the level of desire to sacrifice for religion. That is moderation----the middle way.

We must keep looking for improving our understanding by developing alternate discourse in this area also. We must think intelligently and be flexible to adopt the changes taking place in the fast moving world. A mere changing of ba ba black sheep with “Rab ka shukr ada kar bhai----jis naiN hamari gaye bhulai” will not do the job.

temporal, I have tried to respond to some of the question you raised. My this and the previous posts are really an attempt to come to terms with modern realities of life and the desire to be able to coexist peacefully with other Muslims as well as non-Muslims.

You are right. I have been travelling a lot these days, and I am beginning to feel a little dreary and tired. However, if I offended you with my reaction to your story, I apologize.

Will try and give it some more readings before I write again.

afrasiyab #161:

Welcome back. Haven’t heard from you in quite some time.

With all this travelling you must be very exhausted. Will simply ignore all your comments and ask you to revist the story.

rgds

t

SR #159:

Welcome back.


Money or fame don’t interest me enough. I may co-author if you agree to manage and invest my share into a temporal trust. This trust would be based somewhere in Oman or Southern Iran. And would provide tents, clothing, food and medicine for the relief of sub continental cities that are exposed to nuclear devastation. And to offer logistics, liaison and volunteer support to other global relief agencies.
(My natural optimism these days is being dampened by unusually pessimistic tides.) AND agree to be in the limelight, do the talk show circuit and plug away the book.

And now descending to mother earth .....Shaikh Ahmed Sirhindi (d 1624) was the original Mujaddid Alif Saani: Renewer or Reviver of the second millennium. Even taking the liberty, Doyem Saani was wrong. I Should have named him Mujaddid Alif Soyem.

As for the 72 minutes --- an informed friend described it thus: the planes in 2020 will be capable of flying at 3 to 5 mach (1 mach is the speed of sound in one hour); these planes would be carrying multiple air to air warheads capable of launching attacks at multiple targets upto 500-800 miles away; the pilot can be hundreds of miles away when launching these missiles. He could effectively record their ‘kills’ and return in 72 minutes.

As for the American Ambassador waking up President Omar, I would have do re think the whole scenario. In addition to those 72 minutes, I would have to tie it in with Abdullah’s Montreal time. Midnight Montreal is 8 am Riyadh. Ideally, Uri should return back to base as dawn is breaking out. That would be 5- 5.30am. this will push back the Ambassador’s calls to around 4-- 4.30 am. That would be 8- 8.30pm in Montreal, hardly the time young men and women return home after dinner.

Pleasure, as always. Pls send me your impressions of the unholy lands.

regards

t

Wow,

I did not see this one comming from you at all.

With making every one of your character a post 6 billionth baby are you setting this in the next 25 years or so, or is there another meaning to it.

Here is what I think.

It is hard to be a Muslim and male (I am sure it is harder to be a female but in view of the fact that men are generally expected to defend their own more vehemently while Muslim females get a little more sympathy comming there way, not totally unjustified ofcoarse, I must say, I will stick with Muslim and Male for this arguement) these days, in the West. So temporal, are you simply `Giving up.` I did not think that you were the kind to do that. I have not had a chance to read the replies to this but I am sure there must have been replies with Muslims predicting the third world war. I think temporal wants an end to the ongoing misery that the Islamic Identity has become for Muslims. He wants to speed up the journey for the most logical of all ends. An all out war between Islam and everybody else. But what`s new in that! Jews and Christians who wrote the Bible envisioned the Armaggeddon(sp?). This is the oldest story in the world. Come on temporal, I know you can do better than repeating these old stories.

SameerJB,

Just read your #133. Made a hard copy. I have the feeling I will read it many times, going back to it like a bedouin to an oasis.

Thank you. That was a spontaneous act of love.

regards,

PM

Temporal:

Yes, I`ve finally returned from the (un)holy lands (re: your message # 76 to Zeemax). I`ve read your piece and its replies (all 158 of them) with much pleasure and amusement. Although now (as of last week) the discussion has been hijacked away from the fictional piece itself and on to matters of theosophy and ritualism, I want to focus on your work of fiction only.

First of all, I think it is merely an incomplete `outline` of a more detailed manuscript, to be submitted to a publisher for the eventual production of an action-packed thriller, a five hundred page long block-buster with all the elements of intrigue, politics, religion, sex, philosophy, suspense, action and violence. It`ll sell a million copies and make the New York Times best seller list for months on end. I hope you will invite me to be a co-author so that I may share in the unending stream of royalties that will inevitably follow.

Now for some specifics. We`ll have to work on many of the details or the critics will have us for lunch and making it to the best-seller list will remain a dream. Following are a few instances.

First, I`m surprised that none of the language hawks have pointed out that `Doyem` and `Sani` both mean `the second`. So your mujadid is styled `Second, second`? That`s a bit redundant, wouldn`t you say?

Second, as he was landing his plane, you specifically say that Major Uri took off ``72 minutes earlier``. That is 36 minutes each way. I`ve done some rudimentary math and it simply does not work out. The distance between Tel Aviv and Mecca (Medina is almost on the way so we won`t even bring up the slight course diversion necessary), as a crow flies, is about 750 nautical miles. Not counting the slower speeds required at take off and landing times, nor the optimum operational speed during targeting and weapons discharge, it would be necessary for Major Uri to fly at well over supersonic speed for the entire 1500 mile journey. There is only one aircraft in the world I am aware of (the B2 bomber) that has this capability without a mid-air fueling requirement. Now perhaps you mean to imply that by the year 2020 the Israel Air Force will have such a plane, I don`t know. However, this is an issue we`ll need to address. The techno stuff much be up to muster or the critics will never forgive us.

Not only this, but you also mention that the US president had been trying to reach his Saudi opposite number for a ``couple of hours``. How does that fit in with the ``72 minutes``?

The central theme will work but much needs to be fine tuned by way of detail. I don`t quite like the idea of CARS. Yes, Gore Vidal, as long ago as the early 1980s, did suggest an eventual cooperation of the US and the (then) USSR, in their common struggle against a possible marriage between the two Asian giants: China and Japan. Yet, there is little to suggest today that the idea of CARS will help us with getting on the NY Times best seller list (after all one does need to cater to the biases and sensitivities of the book purchasing public).

Do I get the job of co-author?

Expectantly yours,

...SR

A Nugget from TFT

Shariat Court remarks laughable



Quoted in daily Din, PPP leader Iqbal Haider said that the Federal Shariat Court allowing unfettered rights to men to marry again and again could be challenged because the Court had no jurisdiction in the matter of Family Laws Ordinance 1961. He said remarks given by the judges were laughable. For instance, unfettered polygamy was allowed `because there were more women than men in Pakistan`, meaning that men could marry many times to `fill the gap`.

Here is an intersting “Guide to Comparative Religions”. It appeared several years ago in “Utne Reader” and “Mother Jones” magazines. My intention to reproduce it is mainly for information or entertainment purposes because I do not want people not to know the basic theological differences among comparative religions. I apologize for the use of word sh *t in this post but here it really means evil, bad things or troubles and is not used in literal sense.



Taoism: Sh *t happens.

Confusianism: Confusius says, “Sh *t Happens”.

Buddhism: If sh *t happens, it isn’t really sh *t.

Zen: What is the sound of sh *t happening?

Hinduism: This sh *t happened before.

Zoroatrianism: Sh *t happens half the time.

Islam: Sh *t happens because it is the will of Allah.

Judaism: Why does this sh *t always happens to us.

Catholicism: Sh *t happens because you are BAD.

Calvinism: Sh *t happens because you do not work hard enough.

Protestantism: Let this sh *t happen to someone else.

Southern Baptists: Sh *t happens only to moderates.

Seventh Day Adventists: No sh *t on Saturdays.

Jehovah Witness: Only 144,000 are gonna get out of this sh *t.

Christian Science: Sh *t is in your mind.

Mormonism: This sh *t is going to happen again.

Moonies: Only happy sh *t really happens.

Rastafarianism: Let’s smoke this sh *t.

Hare Karishna: Sh *t happens rama rama.

Existentialism: What is this sh *t anyway?

Hedonism: There is nothing like a good sh *t happening.

Stoicism: This sh *t is good for me.

(Author Anonymous)

sac #136:

(Please read the article I posted in #10 on Jawahara’s board)

If we alienate, knowingly or unknowingly, the spiritual element in us, can we cope effectively with life on any level?

rgds

t

SameerJB #133

Excellent summation and good points raised.


Some more questions:

1: There is a need to define ritual and dogma, universalism as in truth, beauty and justice, and if possible to discuss them from both religious and social perspectives.
2: Qur’an is clear as well as vague. It could be understood by the simple bedouins, as well as the scietific mind down the centuries. Does this underline its inherent flexibility? If the answer is in affirmative, what happened to the flexibility?
3: Are all Qur’anic injunctions for all times? Say, slavery or polygamy?
4: Are Muslims the ‘final’ of the chosen people?
5: Can a person be a good being and not a Musim?

regards,

temporal

temporal #146

No, I am not .... I think I will stick with my day job as a management consultant and demagogue. Thanks for the tip - I ordered the book.

re jay #150:

Yes I owe it all to you my friend. I can now run the 100 meters in 10 seconds flat. Women swoon when I take off my shirt at the beach. With a wave of my hands I can cause all neon signs in Time square to start blinking my name. Depending upon the color of clothes I am wearing, I take out the matching Ferrari from my garage in the morning. I had an audience with the Dalai lama, Bill Gates and George Soros yesterday....And that was only before lunch time.....

How can I thank you enough? I beseech you to come to the US and open an ashram in Greenwich, CT. I`ll publicly renounce my religion and devote the rest of my life to spreading your wisdom. I implore you to do this for the sake of the misguided millions(specially Muslims!!).

regards

-sac

P.S: Not that I particularly care but I don`t drink. Marijuana.....isn`t it a medicine of some sort?

rajanjua #148

Sorry, I still don`t get it. Thackeray`s Shiv Sena began as a Marathi `sons of the soil` movement in the `60s(or late `50s maybe). I have never heard any Shiv Sena politician(whose public utterances I listen to and abhor from a distance) quote scripture or attempt to exert religious influence. In the recent years they have taken upon themselves the additional role of fighting for so-called `Hindu` causes just as any other caste/community based party claims to do. Well, plenty of Hindus have said thank you, but no thank you.

About misuse of religion, yes, I agree with you, both mullahs and Thackeray attempt it. Again, which one of these is being allowed to get away with it? I have never seen Pakistanis repudiate in public, misuse of Islam in political or any other sphere(even in extreme cases calling for condemnation like Afghanistan) or challenge the mullahs without being labelled traitors to the cause of Islam. You will find any number of vocal opponents of Thackeray or any so-called `Hindu` party, and the worst that is said of these opponents is that they are `communists` or `pseudo-secularists`, its never been possible to call someone a `bad` Hindu and make it stick. Can the same be said about being Muslim and opposing mullahs?

I don`t know the situation in Pakistan, but how much of opposing narrow-minded fundamentalists is complicated by their propensity for armed (gun) violence? The situation is less serious in India. Even Dara Singh used bows, arrows and knives, no guns.

Coming to the final difference, how much of current Pakistani public debate is about implementation of Sharia or Islamic law, how much does such debate or or such a unresolved and seemingly-possible paradigm change in Pakistan make mullahs larger-than-life to themselves and others? Thackeray can only plan for the next election, he cannot count on any other method of increasing his influence. Secularism of the Indian Constitution has protected Hinduism, thats the other difference.

Sadhana

We,the alm-seekers at the door of Hope

will return,once these bad days are gone

and,clearing from our eyes some dream-shards

will move on,as before,& build the DREAM,anew

wassalaam

Sac #136,

So my dear friend you had been drinking, that too drinking in the pubs, talking to women, all because of me. Your post contained wisdom, coming out of introspection, not from reading books. You are on the right track, alcohol in some people has the positive effect of lowering inhibition thresholds, even in thinking process. Have you tried marijuana?

Regards and wishes for newer vistas

jay.

To All:

Coming back to the subject.

Kaisa Kaaba,kahan ka Qibla,kaisa harum aur kya ahraam

Uss koochay kay bashindon nay subb ko yaheen sey salaam kya.

Meer Taqui Meer-----practising & orthodox muslim.

So you see nothing is,that has not been said or done before.

wassalaam.

Re: sadna

Mullahs are usually ignorant, narrow-minded fundamentalists and so is Thakeray. Mullahs can and sometimes do abuse religion and so does Thakeray. Get the analogy now?

``BTW, how is religious authority earned, in Pakistan?``

I am not sure, I believe the Shias have some sort of a procedure. I think Fozia described it. I don`t know if there is something similar amongst the Sunnis.

Re: sadna

Mullahs are usually ignorant, narrow-minded fundamentalists and so is Thakeray. Mullahs can and sometimes do abuse religion and so does Thakeray. Get the analogy now?

hamidm:

You would not be this Mohsin Hamid? This is from yesterday`s NYT Book Review.


http://www.nytimes.com/books/00/03/12/reviews/000312.12lahirit.html

rgds

t

rajanjua #137

``The struggle between the conservatives and liberals exist in every religion, chapee. Our mullahs are not more embarassing than that moron named Thakeray.``

Incorrect analogy. Thackeray has never claimed to be a religious leader or tried to peddle religious doctrine or exert religious authority. He will never be given the authority to do so, being recognised by all as a political leader with his own brand of political doctrine, he is not considered by any measure a religious scholar nor even granted the moral authority to offer insights into religious matters.

Extremely important and key difference.

Moreover, even if a swami was actively involved in political activities, if his activities and assertions didnot pass muster with the public, he would only end up losing his spiritual or religious overlordship and without it he would be nothing, however influential, learned or however many armed hordes he controlled. Remember Chandraswami? His influence extended only over those who asked for his guidance, noone else. He had to spend time in jail for foreign exchange regulation violations inspite of his powerful friends.

In any case, there is no formal controlling authority vested with Hindu religious figures that their followers donot grant them primarily by virtue of respect for their moral leadership and scholarship. Without that respect, there is no authority.

Sadhana

BTW, how is religious authority earned, in Pakistan? How does a scholar rise in the ranks of the religious heirarchy? Is it scholarship, or influence and connections in Arab countries, personality power over the general public, political connections, ability to attract funds, control over mosques? Can the authority of any given mullah ever be challenged, either on political basis or theological basis by any individual or group, his peers, superiors, laymen?

SameerJB:#133

1)I did not add or remove anything from fozia`s or amir`s viewpoints.I re-produced the explanation given by the ulema of a certain jurisprudence(fiqh)-------Pl.read my post again.

2)It is true all or most of the concepts existed in pre-Islamic period( both of the book or without & maybe among `heathens` too).But all the science Laws existed before Newton too.Who needs the brain or the age of a sage or scholar to `explain` that a body will not be moved unless moved & will not cease to stop moving unless stopped by someone.But sir,this is taught as the cardinal theology of science & VERY RIGHTLY SO.Sometimes apparently simple things stated with a specific purpose become very profound.So whosoever ENUNCIATED these concepts in a concise & orderly manner is the one to claim the ownership.Now is that not simple & obvious?

As OMAR1974 would be taught in his law class``And that my dear students was a penetrating insight into the obvious``.

Religion & science are not subjects to be treated in a wishy washy manner.They must be approached with a cartain awe & reverrence----mental Ba Vuzoo is one way to look at it!

wassalaam.

In my reply # 138, the last line should read:

``I am sure, you are not asking your audience not to know the differences reasonably well.``

Sameer, I apologize for my sloppiness.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

ali1:#141

This one is for you only:

Meer kee jaanib moonh ko kr key baat jo unn ney uss sey kee

Lutf kiya,ihsan kiya,inaam kya,ikraam kya.

The sher was quoted impromptu by me,and I think so it was by you.

``Correct version`` from Zikr-e-Meer by Khwaja Ahmad Farooqui 1954 Anjuman-e-Tarraqui-e-Hind.

Mind you many variations have also been in currency.This is the irony of a sher which becomes very widely accepted.Democracy(numbers) win and `reality` becomes irrelevant.

Meer kay deen-o-mazhab ko ubb poochhtey kya ho unn ney tho

------no change in other line

I have a very fragile copy of the original hand-written copy of the six divaans.It would need very careful page-turning.I promise you I`ll post that version too,for the benefit of all.

I really appreciate your concern about my urdu.But I must protest(or question) your judgement about my english.

I am defficient in both---and in many other deciplines.

wassalaam.



OMAR1974:

Thank you.We`ll chat soon.This is just an acknowledgment.

Oye FARANGI_KUSHED # 139

English medium school ki paidawaar, please don`t kush the urdu language.

The correct sher is:

Meer ke deen-o-mazhab ka kya pucho sahab usnay to

qashqa khaincha, daer mein baitha, kabka tark Islam kya

Quote your Kipling and other sahibs till you learn Urdu. humph!!

aati hai urdu zubaN aate aate

take care

Ali

Re:sac#136

Your statements about Islam are unfair. All great religions preach good human values and Islam is no different. The key is how the followers of the religion interpret the teachings. Take Christianity for example. Christians had a very backward interpretation of their faith till the renaissance. In fact, more violence has come out of Christianity than any other religion. This includes conflicts between the catholics, orthodox church, protestants, crusades, inquisitions, anti-jewish pogroms etc. Yet Christians were able to evolve their interpretation of religion to a different level. Today there are as many Christians as in the past, yet you see the Pope apologizing to the jews and orthodox church about past atrocities. You see dialogue between Christians and Muslims.

A similar phenomenon holds true for Islam. In the past, Islam was an open religion that encouraged scientific thought and an open mind. It encouraged its followers to actively engage with non-muslims. It offered a message of equality of human beings that was very powerful. No wonder, there were so many scholars produced in the Islamic world and the religion spread far and wide. People like Al-Beruni travelled to India, learnt Sanskrit, read the vedas and analyzed Indian society and culture. People like Amir Khusro and Nizamuddin Auliya actively built bridges with hindus while spreading Islam. Similarly muslims in Spain created a splendid civilization and pursued scholarship in science, mathematics, etc.

What has happened in the past few centuries is that muslims have developed a close minded, insular interpretation of their faith. This could be a reaction to the rise of the western world. There is now a concerted attempt to insulate the muslim world from non-muslim influences, as if Islam is so fragile. There is a strong premium on separatist movements in muslim majority places in the world (Kashmir, Chechneya etc). Muslims are forgetting that these areas in far-flung parts of the world like India, Russia etc. have muslim majorities only because muslims engaged with non-muslims in those lands. The most irrational examples are the Taliban who bash up TVs and imprison women in their homes. This mindset is opposite of the mindset of the earlier generation open-minded muslims who engaged with everyone. Hopefully this trend will reverse some day and Islam will be a very different religion from what it seems to be.

sac:#136

Why should you expect hate mail.You`ve said nothing radical or outrageous.Islam encourages,nay

exhorts introspection & enquiry and then demands that one give it up if not happy.

Islam does not like a doubting muslim---an unsure & questioning muslim yes but never one who is trying to do a favour to himself or others to stay muslim.

Meer kay deen-o-mazhab ko tum poochho kya ho unn ney tho

Qashqua khaincha,dair mein baithey,kub ka thurk Islam kya.

-----That Doyen of Urdu Poetry---Meer Taqui Meer.

Solidly orthodox & staunchly practising muslim.

trans: Ask me not about the belief and creed of that Meer.

Has a forhead-mark(hindu),attends the temple,has given up on Islam long long ago.

cheer up sac.but not in the bar please!

wassalaam

In response to SamerJB (Reply # 133)

Dear Sameer:

Thank you for an excellent summary and a well-argued statement. I see in you the symptom of a great writer, keep it up.

I agree with your conclusion: “It is lot better to stress the commonalities than the differences. This is the only rational and positive way of thinking!!!” I am sure, you are not asking your audience to know the differences reasonably well.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Re: sac

The struggle between the conservatives and liberals exist in every religion, chapee. Our mullahs are not more embarassing than that moron named Thakeray. No one here on this board has said that Islam has failed them.

Amir Janjua

Mary is a good friend of mine. I`ve known her for 5-6 years. She is around 34, jewish, reasonably good looking in that New Yorkish kind of way and divorced for over 8 years. She holds an advanced ivy-league degree and makes north of a quarter of a million each year. She has lurched from one disastrous relationship after another in the past few years. All those have involved jewish men in their 30s who in most cases were either lawyers, dentists or investment bankers.

A couple of weekends ago we were discussing the sorry state of our lives when Mary blurted out ``I don`t think I am ever going to get married again!!``

I, of course attributed the outburst to a rather heavy dose of martinis and tried to convice her that she was dead wrong and she would think differently once she gets up in the morning. Mary was adamant in her protestations and proceeded to leave me and my other friends at the bar. She and I had another conversation a few days later and I tried to joke about her statement a few nights earlier. To my surprise she took the ribbing very light-heartedly and said ``You know I`ve been thinking about this for the last couple of years and finally I got the courage to admit it to myself. The statement was not meant for public consumption. It was for my own sake. And now I feel better than I`ve ever felt before in my life!!``

What does this story have to do with the discussion at hand? Nothing and everything. Just like Mary most well-educated and intelligent Muslims have a deep secret which they may someday confront and feel a whole lot better. Deep down they realize that Islam as a religion has failed them. It has nothing to offer to them except a collection of rituals and ceaseless discussions about the number of imams, hijab and other such inconsequential topics. With the fundamentalists refusing to give an inch, it has become nothing but a source of embarassment. It is painful to see otherwise logical and intelligent people trying to reconcile the impracticality of it all with what they`ve been taught or have been led to believe since birth. In rare instances they`ve tried to do it themselves as an intellectual endeavour and contrary to their public utterances have failed miserably.

Obviously this may result in a lot of hate mail. So be it!!

macgupta:#134

What a discovery on your part!

My friend I knew the meaning & that is exacly what I mean.One side is not called Fanatic but fan.The everyday use has altered the mood of the word.

You really pay attention.That is a consolation.

It happens to all of us sometimes.

wassalaam

Farangi_kush (#123) writes :

Wearing tattered jeans,grundge dressing,nose-ring piercing etc etc are not blind followings.This is fashion.You become a fan.But when you follow the sunnat(esentially life-style practice) of that greatest man who ever graced this universe and try to follow it to the letter then you are not a fan,you are a fanatic--same stroke,different beat.

Farangi_kush, the joke is on you. ``Fan``, as used above, is a slang word, which is derived from ``fanatic``, at least according to my Webster`s dictionary. ``Fan`` == ``Fanatic``, same stroke same beat.

-arun gupta

Fozia’s posts have interstingly touched off a very open and lively debate about an area which was generally avoided previously. Her statement, “ If one looks carefully, the fundamental aspects of Islam are: Unity in creation, knowledge, truth, justice, day of accountability (qiyamat) and equality for all in front of the Supreme Being” was partly true so was Amir’s suggestion of kalima, Humanity, Justice, Truthfulness and Kindness; to which F_K added Tawhid and Khatm-e-Nabov’at. There is not anything to be disagreed upon these abstract aspects of Islam. In her next post Fozia put it very precisely by stating, “ because these are more abstract concepts they are often harder for people to relate to and enforce upon themselves. Especially when compared to the more concrete ``pray, fast etc`` elements of Islam”. Altaf and Patrick made a good case for the ritualistic aspects of going to the shrines.

I tend to agree with Fozia, Patrick and Altaf but would like to further extend this debate. The abstract aspects would not have made a clear break from all else, which Islam intended from the offset, especially in the collective political and religious history of Muslims. They were rituals which set Muslim apart from the rest. Come to think of abstract aspects; Most of them were already existing in some form in pre-Islamic times. The truthfulness, justice, knowledge etc. are common human goodness prevalent in e.g., in India before the arrival of Muslims or even before the arrival of vedic Aryans. The common human goodness as Islamic abstract aspects could not provide any justification for a person to switch their faith, when these aspects were not in short supply. The effects of rituals are much more far reaching than merely a non-abstract and concrete set of practices. As Patrick and Altaf pointed out, they provide an identity, a belongingness and above all a valid illusion or spirituality. For these reasons, rituals are and will remain part of most religions. The rituals are a necessity for all organized religions and is the bread and butter of priestly class which vigorously opposes any attempt toward individualized religion.

The best way to discuss rituals is on comparative basis. Two points come to my mind, which differtiate Islamic rituals from all else are: 1) The excessive dominance of Arab culture and traditions in the form of language and customs. 2) Time consumed in performing the rituals. Islamic rituals are more time consuming than other religions on per day, per week or yearly basis. In other religions, there is seperation of piety and lay people where people belonging to priestly orders can indulge excessively in the performance of rituals whereas Islam does not distinguish Muslims between piety and common folks and every able body has to perform these rituals. For some Muslims, the time spent is directly proportional to earning more credit (Sawab). Theoretically, a Muslim can read whole length of Surah Baq’r in each Raka’t making each prayer very long. It is possible for old retirees and people with less commitments to family and work, or those who do not intend to make any positive contribution to family, neighborhood and society at large, to indulge excessively in rituals. But for most, it depends on their level of commitment to other affairs of life. Moderation is the best policy. I have known many people, even in my family, who have chosen to indulge excessively at the expense of ignoring their responsibilities to the family and society.

Similarly Quran is an absolute necessity for Muslim identity and belongingness. I tend to agree with temporal that it is loaded with symbolism and is poetic based more on convistion than any detailed knowledge. If it was to read as prose then it is full of mythological accounts of the history of a rather insignificant tribe, the Jews, which are very questionable in the light of modern knowledge of Middle-Eastern history. Besides, a Holy book can not be merely a history book, it is suppose to be valid for all times. A reading, first in Arabic and then translation of the story of Joseph for two hours and then finding the moral of the story, which could be learnt easily in much shorter time, is definitely not the purpose of reading Quran. It has to be spiritual. Amir has pointed out this aspect clearly by quoting Iqbal from his famous book as, “The Qur`an, however is not a legal code. Its main purpose, as I have said before, is to awaken in man the higher consiousness of his relation with God and the universe. No doubt, the Qur`an does lay down a few general principles and rules of a legal nature, especially relating to the family-the ultimate basis of social life”. A good spiritual experience requires complete faith, submission, focus, concentration and attention to the reading and not letting your mind wandering about the deep philosophical meaning during concentration. It is similar to what Karishna tells Arjuna throughout Bhagavad Gita; Follow your obligation as dutifully as possible, remain focused, not to worry about consequences of your actions because they have no bearing on the profounf truth. Another similar Japaneese Zen Buddhist fable goes like, “ Does a dog has Buddha mind? Desciple asks. The Priest replies, ‘Ju’ meaning it does not matter”. Now there are thousands of Japaneese monks chanting “Ju” from early in the morning to late at night while putting their minds in their bellies. Does Japaneese society has any less of kindness, justice and truthfulness than others? The answer is no because their meditations without thinking supposedly open them up to the profound truth or inner-self. If you think that I am trying to find a common ground with Hinduism and Buddhism, you are right.

Similarly, it enhances the spiritual experience during Namaz if one totally focuses and concentrates on the act of praying instead of thinking too much about the meanings. The reading of Quran, praying and going to shrines dutifully for the sake of identity, belongingness and spirituality, are best experienced with your mind thrown into you belly. Since the postures of Namaz are so similar to several sun salutation postures of Yoga; albiet in slow motion, can one also practice breathing techniques of Yoga during praying, inhaling getting up and exhaling going down? Is it possible to have such benign innovations in the name of Ijtehad? Can one benefit from the best of other religion like Hinduism and Buddhism without letting go of the core belief of Islam? Why do one has to only acquuire good knowledge from Ibn-Rushd, Iqbal, Ali Shari’ati and Maulana Roomi and not from Aurobindo, Radhakrishnan, Vivekananda and Suzuki when Hadeeces says, “Acquire knowlegde even if you have to go to China” and “O’ God give me knowledge”.

In the modern and postmodern world, we should try to live peacefully, respectfully and benefitting from as many other sources of wisdom as possible. Why do we have to invent wheel every time we desire one?

One last point is about Quranic interpretations. Every sect interprets different parts diffently. Even among the Sunnis, the famous Tafseer Ibn-Kaseer, Tafheem Ul-Quran and Ibn-Tayyima’s interpretation do not necessarily agree with each other. The differences of interpretation will remain even if there is to be a certain rigorous scholarship for one to be a licenced scholar among Sunnis because the differences are rooted in the historical foundations. It is more important to think above and beyond the seemingly differences of interpretation. At the prfound level, they are all truths for the person believing in them as long as it is not used to degrade or insult others. Think of this an example. The last two sentences of Ist Surah Fateha read, “ Sirat allazina.................................Wallazzualeem”, meaning [O’ God] “Help me to follow the path of those You blessed with wisdom and not those whom you condemned”. Lets ignore the condemned ones; For most Sunnis and Wahabis, the blessed ones are the Prophets of Jewish origin and since Hazrat Mohammad is the last one, the list stops here. For followers of Sufis, it may include great Sufis, for Shia, it includes 12 imams, for Ismailies, it includes their list of Imams and so on. Who is going to draw the line? Can the list include great scientists and philosophers of non-Musllim origin? As you can see it is futile to interpret it to the satisfaction of all sects. Why worry about it when there are so many other issues to worry about. It is lot better to stress the commonalities than the differences. This is the only rational and positive way of thinking!!!

Assad_K:#129

The examples have been chosen just to bring home the point.A lot of people understand things better when presented in stark contrast.

Yes the emphasis sometimes,nay many a times,on the non-sunnat aspect & should be thoroughly discouraged.A lot of times it is the only answer to the oppression committed by those who have the military might & the media.A victims cries for help has to be louder than the sound of gun-fire.

Would you not agree?

wassalaam.



PS:

Usool-eldeen are the pillars on which is the foundation of the structure is.

Froo-e-din are the events happening or supposed to happen inside the structure.

Imamat is the door to Ijtehad.There is no other way.According to Iqbal it is the ideal-most system,perhaps idealistic so the next best alternative is Parliamentary democracy.The present day Iran is closest to what he dreamed of.

O, you who sit in the monastic cell and talk tall,

Go and shout the word of negation, La before Nimrod.

Become aware of the power of the word, La Illah,

Whosoever has the sword of negation in his hand.

Is the ruler over the entire world of existence.

-Iqbal

Brother Farangi-Kush

Wasalaam

I admire your gallant, yet Quixotic, attempt to reason with this apostate crowd which is headed straight to Hell accompanied by their Bhajan-singing peanut-chilgoza gallery...... You would make Imam Ghazali proud with your iman-inspired attempts to beat the twin devils of rationalism and reason ...... these are obviously inspired by the likes of that infamous colonel from Kentucky and his Californian cousin who have poisoned our minds with haram (but original) chicken and suspect Big-Macs ..... Brother, don`t fret - just as we beat that heretic Al-Razi senseless with his own big fat book, we will flog these followers of Ibn-Sina and Bill Gates with their copies of Wired and the New Yorker. Inshallah! Takbeer ....

Actually, in this age of useless Kafir-Judeo-Christian technology, we, the true believers, have found a utialtarian, and therfore halal, use for the Sahaitan`s invention - the Internet (I always thought Al Gore resembled Iblees !) Anyway, you and Temporal and I, can get answers to all our perplexing questions by visiting

http://www.fatwa-online.com/index.htm

where the likes of Ibn-Baz and other illustrious ulema provide us with answers to all the important questions. So, if you ever want to know whether it is okay for a menstruating woman, wearing anklets, to travel in a chauffer driven car, accompanied by a maternal uncle, at night, but before Isha, to another town more than forty, but less than fifty kilometers away.... then please visit this site.

P.S In case you are curious - the devil is in the details: you see, it all depends on whether the chauffer is her son-in-law or first cousin third removed and whether they have had dinner or not.

Jazak-Allah-Khair!

Your Humble Brother in Faith

Hamid

Farangi_Kush

re:123

`Wearing tattered jeans,grundge dressing,nose-ring piercing etc etc are not blind followings.This is fashion.You become a fan.But when you follow the sunnat(esentially life-style practice) of that greatest man who ever graced this universe and try to follow it to the letter then you are not a fan,you are a fanatic--same stroke,different beat.`

Comparing contemporary fashions with religion? Doesn`t that demean the latter? Ignoring, of course, that you`ve kinda picked upon the extremes of fashion, that are often criticized..

I must question, however, your assertion that people are objecting to the sunnat. What people object (which is a mild word) to, is details such as massacring the populace of people you`ve conquered, freely advocating death/persecution to the Other (whatever the Other is), machinegunning or beating with rubber hoses those women who don`t do hijab and similar such activities carried out by those who profess to be the religion`s greatest defenders. I find it hard to believe that any such actions fall into Sunnah.

re:128

Faroo-e-Din and Uroo-e-din.. what, exactly, is emphasised as being the 5 pillars of Islam? Any text you can find in, say, schools, lists only namaz etc ie the rituals (apart from a passing mention that Allah forgives all sins other than shirq). The imams I`ve heard at khutba are also busy emphasising the rituals, when, that is, they`re not calling for death to the US/Israel/India. Ijtehad has been abandoned anyway, it often seems.

rajanjua:#103 & # 117

Bearing in mind that you have enough learning to spot the muslim fiqh & denyat I refer to hereunder,I venture to bring this to light for those who might benefit from it.

What is written below is a way to explain concepts.These are not concepts unto themselves.

The five pillars of Islam are:(called Usool-i-deen as opposed to faroo-i-deen,abou which later)

1.(Unflinching belief in) Tauheed--Unity of Allah

2.(an attribute of Allah

but just to highlight

belief in HIS ) Adl----- Justice

3.(Unflinching belief in) Nabuvvat--All messengers.

4.(belief in the idea of) Imamat--for present-day

guidance for all

5.(unflinching belief in) Qiyamat--Resurrection &

last day,Judgement

Not only these are our Bill of Rights(if you love such expressions) but they are important in their SERIAL order as well.

The FIRST two would make one a muslim in his heart without knowing the actual message of the prophet(like those who are leaning to become muslims or many born muslims who either care not to or never had the werewithal,ability or opportunity to read Quran--the message).

The THIRD is a belief which in cnjuntion with the above two becomes our oath to induct us formally into the fold of Islam.

The FOURTH pillar is for us to seek Ijtehad in contemporary times.I want an interested person to look further into it him/herself.

The FIFTH belief is an integral part because this keeps us on our toes,so to speak.Reminding oneself of the mortality & to be accountable keeps our judgements & decisions moral--or at least that is the idea .

The idea to write the above is to whet the appetite & whosoever is interested to study further is now on his/her own.



& now the Froo-e-deen

meaning practises(not beliefs--but rituals)

which are Vajib(essentials) but if not carried out do not invalidate ones `DENIZENSHIP` of the Citadel of Islam.Again these are in order of priority.

1.Namaaz

2.Roza.

3.Zakaat

4.Khums

5.Hajj

6.Jihad.

All of the above explanations have been the outcome of research & extensive discourse by the Ulema(yes the bearded ones,the fundos,orthodox ones etc etc).So therefore one who has rudimentary learning in general & of Islam in particular better not approach the subject matter flippantly & lend support to the belief about the jahalat of being a Ba Ba Blacksheep madressa-walla.

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread.



Allah knows best.May He forgive me for being either simplifying the matter or being pedantic & scholarly about it.

wassalaam

My Goodness !! and you have mentioned Lucknow.Dammit ! thats where I live.

In reply to temporal, #122 :

- Arun, Rabia Basri was one of the few women saints

- in Islam. What were you trying to say by quoting

- this incident?

My turn to be enigmatic :-)

Perhaps it is a variation on the theme of the mobile Kaaba. I prefer Rabia`s method to yours.

-arun

In reply to temporal, #122 :

- Arun, Rabia Basri was one of the few women saints

- in Islam. What were you trying to say by quoting

- this incident?

My turn to be enigmatic :-)

Perhaps it is a variation on the theme of the mobile Kaaba.

-arun

Re: temporal

I am not aware of any web-site, temporal. But I think you might be able to find a copy in a major Univ.`s library. I forget whether it was Berkeley or Irvine, but these guys had Faiz, Ghalib and Iqbal in their huge collection. For a homesick Pakistani, I still remember my excitement at finding that treasure trove.

Regards,

Amir

PM:#115

Blind following.You see PM,what most people do not realise is that if a true adherent to his/her faith performs certain rites & rituals, that person is termed as a `blind follower`(which incidentally most of them are!but I believe it is their right to be so as long as no one else is being disturbed)but when similar acts are performed by the secularist,atheist,agnostic & the free-for-allers then they do not view(?) their behaviour as blind following.

Wearing tattered jeans,grundge dressing,nose-ring piercing etc etc are not blind followings.This is fashion.You become a fan.But when you follow the sunnat(esentially life-style practice) of that greatest man who ever graced this universe and try to follow it to the letter then you are not a fan,you are a fanatic--same stroke,different beat.

The english-school hegemony & exploitation must be uprooted from the (former)colonies.These people when they get plum jobs really bring ruin & dishonour to their countries,because most of them are super-jahils & are not even aware of their jahalat.Sifarish,money,& influence are their IQs.

No other countries do what these countries do.These countries will take off only when english becomes a language of science & commerce but not that of literature & culture.

wassalaam.

macgupta #116:

Arun, Rabia Basri was one of the few women saints in Islam. What were you trying to say by quoting this incident?

rgds

t

PM #115
You say, “.... but might not the traditional precriptions help us jump-start the process?”
Pls. read the first 2-3 paragraphs in #119.
rgds

t

rajanjua #113:

Is there a site where you can access “Reconstruction...” on the net?

rgds

t

Fozia #107 & 108:

:):):):):):):) ----enough?

Be good. Be true. Be yourself. That is a good -------- (fill in yourself).


Intercession or emulation (last para re#106) is not a good rationale. For the former, there is Allah and their is you, direct, accessible, simple. For emulation you study lives, not graves.


You say, “However is the Qur’an really just a ``simple straightforward book`` as you put it? From my angle, the Qur’an is a book full of symbolism and essentially a very complex collection of poetry.”

Must apologise for my lapse. I winced when I read ‘straight forward’. Wrong word. Someone slapped meself on the wrist. The thought I wanted to convey was if by magic, every single Aalim was recalled to paradise this instant, we would have enough books and tafsir to be able to survive and thrive.


Again, you say, “In Qom, Iran, there is such a system in place for Shia scholars. Not just anybody can become an ``ayatollah``, it takes many many years of study and ``promotions`` so to speak before this happens..”


Agreed, and very perceptive. Sadly, in the Sunnis I am not aware of any such rigorous scholarship criteria. Tomorrow, if I stop shaving I can call myself Sufi or Maulvi without anyone battling an eyebrow.

And when the beard has attained a sufficient length, I can be a Maulana. (I mean look at that fellow Azhar Masood. Maulana? What are his credentials? Courage of his convictions?) If the Government of Pakistan starts charging licensing fees of Rs. 10,000 per year for the use of such titles, they could offer free education (& not the Nizamiya nisaab, thank you) to every single child.

regards

temporal

Re : Temporal (#99) : what makes a fundamentalist ?

A coincidence, perhaps, that another browser page was open on a Dawn opinion piece, by Kuldip Nayar :

Quote :

Wearing religion on one`s sleeve does not disturb me so much as making a fetish out of it and pursuing it single-mindedly. For this is what fundamentalism is. It shuts out any idea, which comes into conflict with Hindutva``

End quote.

It is not being simple, leading a simple life, etc., that makes one fundamentalist, at least in current usage. It is the closing of the mind. We do not know if the farmer who asked the Prophet a question was close-minded or not; but the very fact that he asked the Prophet something, the reply to which might have disagreed with his previous understanding suggests that he was not.

Regarding one man`s terrorist being another man`s freedom fighter -- that is a neat evasion of having to think. It is very often clear, by objective definition, who is a terrorist. The key is to see how one treats others with the same goals, but perhaps different methods or organization than oneself.

For example, the LTTE ( Tamil Tigers) have assassinated other leaders of groups also struggling for Tamil independence, until the LTTE is virtually the only visible group left.

Mahatma Gandhi`s Congress and Subhash Chandra Bose`s INA obviously disagreed on the means to independence for India, but not on the goal. Neither went about assassinating the other side.

A similar discussion could be held, but, please, not here, on the different groups in Kashmir.

Or the PLO.

Thus, considering Bose`s INA, it would be a group to which the cliche applies : one man`s freedom fighter, another`s terrorist. But for a great many groups today, there is no doubt as to what they are.

-arun gupta

Re: temporal

Not trying to change the five pillars. Merely echoing some thoughts, maybe a bit bluntly.

Re: Altaf Bhimji

Tents and boats aside, Abul-Hasan Kharaqani muses:

``Patched cloack and prayer carpet do not make a Sufi, nor practice or custom; the Sufi is he who is not.``

Re: macgupta

Thank you for your post about Rabia. I had almost forgotten this story.

Regards,

Amir Janjua

[Quoting]

Another tale tells how the Kaaba rose up and came forward to meet Rabia when she was making her pilgrimage to Mecca. She commented,``What have I to do with the house, it is the Lord of the house I need.``

Meanwhile an eminent fellow Sufi, Ibrahim ibn Adham, was taking many years over his pilgrimage to Mecca, piously stopping to perform ritual prayers many times along the way. Arriving at Mecca and seeing no Kaaba, he thought his eyes were at fault until a voice informed him that the Kaaba had gone forth to meet a woman. When Rabia and the Kaaba arrived together, Rabia informed Ibrahim, who was consumed with jealousy that the Kaaba had so honored here, that whereas he crossed the desert making ritual prayers, she came in inward prayer.

Faragi_Kush:

Your reply to fozia (#114) was mine (minus the references to Paki and Indian low-life). Yes, birhtdays and anniversaries are the Western rituals that are taking on greater significance, I think, as the rituals of yore (mostly reliously rooted) are less observed. One question, though: what makes one set of rituals more `low-life` than another? How do you rate the value of a ritual?

Altaf Bhimji:

I fully agree with you on that rituals are not [necessarily] empty observances, but can have profound impact on the psyche. At a non-rational level, they have the power ot provide centeredness, take us to that special place inside ourselves, and help adjust our bearings. Also, importantly, many rituals provide the sense of connectedness, relatedness with others that is so important, I think, for our spiritual well-being. This right attitude naturally leads to right thoughts actions, to use Buddhistspeake.

Ans as you point out, it is only when the rituals lose their power to affect us experientially and are reduced to dogma, that they lose their value or indeed turn harmful. (Could we say they become idols then?) Just though that was significant enought to re-state.

temp:

Liked what you said about ``whatever helps us find out peace..`` The suggestions you used were very evocative. `Centering`-- just in their contemplation. Yes, to each his own, but might not the traditional precriptions help us jump-start the process?

Fozia:

Your posts have been enlightening.

JR: Glad *someone * read through and appreciated that long and badly formatted post (#79). You might like the last post on the only other board you addressed me.

regards,

PM

fazia:

You really want to know the importance of rituals? Only when you do it you lovingly call them observance,practises,and manana.

Here they are,for a lot of low-life pakis & Indians these are now `religion`,but their greatest excuse is to say ``this I do not do religious` reasons:

1. Birthdays

2.Anniversaries.

3.Anniversaries

4.Valentines

5.Christmas

6.Basant

7.New years Night

8.Mothers & Fathers day

etc etc----add more if you know some.

I agree that not all Indo-Pakis are low-lifes enough to observe all of the above but my main point is that these cease to be `rituals` because there is no `religion` invoved.Please try to skip it & then see the uproar--the reaction you will get will tell you that it is not only a ritual but it has seeped so deep that it has become a dogma!!!

It is always my FUN,your PRACTICE,& his RITUAL.

Words,words words & nothing but words.

wassalaam.



PS:I am resisting to jump into this opportunity to be tempted to `flaunt` my `knoweledge` about Islam.

MAZHABI BEHSS MEIN NAY KEE HEE NAHEEN

FAALTOO AQL MUJH MEIN THHEE HEE NAHEEN.

translation: Religious discourse I delved in none,Brains & spared ones,I had none.

There are very learned people on such matters right outside the doorstep.

Re: fozia

I don`t have anything against visiting shrines. In fact I am a firm believer in complete freedom of exercise in religious beliefs for everyone. I am strongly against imposition of any type of law based on religion-

My post was just to express my feelings that rituals can and most of the time do overwhelm the actual message.

On your discussion of Qura`n let me add a few thoughts of Iqbal:

``Unfortunately, the conservative Muslim public of this country is not yet quite ready for a critical discussion of `Fiqh` which, if undertaken, is likely to displease most people, and raise sectarian controversies; yet I venture to offer a few remarks on the point before us.

1. In the first place, we should bear in mind that from the earliest times, practically upto the rise of the Abbasides, there was no written law of Islam apart from the Qur`an.

2. Secondly, it is worthy of note that from about the middle of the first century up to the beginning of the fourth not less than ninteen schools of law and legal opinion appeared in Islam. This fact alone is sufficient to show how incessantly our early doctors of law worked in order to meet the necessities of a growing civilization. With the expansion of conquest and the consequent widening of the outlook of Islam these early legists had to take a wider view of things, and to study local conditions of life and habits of new peoples that came within the fold of Islam. A careful study of the various schools of legal opinion, in the light of contemporary social and political history, reveals that they gradually passed from the deductive to the inductive attitude in their efforts at interpretation.

3. Thirdly, when we study the four accepted sources of Mohammadan Law and the controversies which they invoked, the supposed rigidity of our recognized schools evaporates, and the possibility of a further evolution becomes perfectly clear. Let us briefly discuss these sources.

(a) Qur`an-

The primary source of Law of Islam is the Qur`an. The Qur`an, however is not a legal code. Its main purpose, as I have said before, is to awaken in man the higher consiousness of his relation with God and the universe. No doubt, the Qur`an does lay down a few general principles and rules of a legal nature, especially relating to the family-the ultimate basis of social life....Turning now to the groundwork of legal principles in Qur`an, it is perfectly clear that far from leaving no scope for human thought and legislative activity the intensive breadth of these principles virtually acts as an awakener of human thought. Our early doctors of law taking their clue mainly from this groundwork evolved a number of legal systems; and the student of Mohammedan history knows very well that nearly half the triumphs of Islam as a social and political pwer were due to the legal acuteness of these doctors. `Next to Romans`, says von Kremer, `there is no other nation besides Arabs which could call its own a system of law so carefully worked out.` But with all their comprehensiveness these systems are after all individual interpretations, and as such cannot claim finality. I know the Ulema of Islam claim finality for the popular schools of Mohammedan Law, though they never found it possible to deny the theoretical possibility of a complete ``Ijtehad``. I have tried to explain the cause which, in my opinion, determined this attitude of the Ulema; but since things have changed and the world of Islam is confronted and affected today by new forces set free by the extraordinary development of human thought in all its directions, I see no reason why this attitude should be maintained any longer. Did the founders of our schools ever claim finality for their reasoning and interpretations? Never. The claim of the present generation of Muslim liberals to reinterpret the foundational legal principles, in the light of their own experience and the altered conditions of modern life is, in my opinion, perfectly justified. The teaching, of the Qur`an that life is a process of progressive creation necessitates that each generation guided but unhapmered by the work of its predecessors, should be permitted to solve its own problems.

-Reconstruction of Religious Thought in Islam

I think ultimately we cannot pass judgment on those who do visit shrines (for whatever reasons) or place a certain level of emphasis on symbols that some might find to be excessive.

Each individual has a different experience, for some this may not be the best way, for others it may be... for some it may be a hope of intercession, for others a way of ``emulation`` . Whatever it may be, these are spiritual and personal things - I don`t think we can criticize people`s spiritual expressions. We can, however, wonder about our own intentions...

There is a story in the Mathnawi about Moses coming accross a sheperd praying in what Moses found to be a strange manner, Moses admonishes the Sheperd, and God admonishes Moses...

``In the Hindu the idiom of Hind is praiseworthy; in the Sindh the idiom of Sindh is praiseworthy. ``

This is also in the Quran where (paraphrasing) it says to each we have given a way...

ali1

O Charyay, Imam Din ki jaga kisi or ko bhi parh lay. Ab toon athween jamat may nahin hay.

RE: ranjanjua # 103

Raja ji,

Your (attempted) simplification of Islam reminds me of a famous sher by Ustad Imam Din of Gujrat.

hari