Why Clinton should visit Pakistan

Agnostic #: 244

Yaar tum to sadme se paagal ho gaye! Good you are in Pakistan. They must have enough experience in treating you. They have lot of patients like you.

BTW, first commandant of Pakistan Military Academy was a ``khansaman``. Is it only becasue he is not a muslim? May I quote you please?

Loveingly yours

PS: Offcourse you can ignore to reply. You have right to choose the respondants.

krashid#: 239

I knew that they don`t teach world history in Pakistan. Now I concluce that they don`t teach local Pakistani history also in your schools.

`` Although as usual, and as expected from an Indian, you are trying to divert issues regarding rights of Sindhi, Baluch, Pathan and Punjabi, Mohajir etc.

I can assure you that Muhajir are one of the most priviledged in Pakistan.``

}} Very well, Rashid, I must also tell you that J&K was one of the most pampered state in India.

``There are issues in every country, like Dalits, Muslims and Christians in India or State wide conflicts in India. But does it lead to a massive support of common man, to the point that almost half of Indian army is in Kashmir to Suppress the will of Kashmiris.``

}} Again you are in a denial phase. After Kargil, you refused to take back dead bodies of your soldiers fearing that it will expose your involvement. Are you really so much brainwashed that you can`t see the reality. Azhar & two other terrorist were from and still are in Pakistan. You still say that struggle is lead by local people.

``Situation in Kashmir is a situation of independence movement and no Kashmiri in his right mind would opt for India.``

Who gives to right to talk for Kasmiri people? Why don`t you let those Baluchis talk whom you killed in thousands in 1970s. But certainly you were never told that by your government.

Did you ask people of Baltistan if they want to be part of Pakistan? They were originally part of J&K.

Did you let people of that part of Kasmir decide their future that was gifted to China by Pakistan? Certainly you were not even told about that by your government.

``Don`t divert the issue, and don`t lament.

Before lamenting on us lament your own people .... Resolve those things, before opening your mouth against our rights.``

}} This is precisely I am telling you. To keep your own house is place, because it will collapse anytime while you are busy adding fuel to fire in Kashmir.

Agnostic #244,

You should be happy that at least on chowk there is some form of interaction between pakistanis and indians, at least not of the bloody type. Internationaly at a political level, after seeing the type of welcome rolled out to Clinton, no one would want to visit pakistan for a long time. Not many would want the pak soldiers disarmed so that they wont kill the visitor. Turkish prime minister is in India, and wont be making a return visit to pakistan. You poor CE is now troling SE asia with his message of peace through jihad.

At least on the chowk, there is a whole range of interactions, profound to the profane. I agree many pakistanis are used to different types of interactions, they every day look forward to the dawn front page of the days work of jihadic pakistanis in kashmir. Till the technology progresses to produce exploding e-mails, many pakistanis will remain disatisfied with chowk.

Regards

jay.

aurangzed #245: Could you point me to the URL of Tarar`s speech, or print it here. I would be interesting in reading it.

Apart from a few vocal people in Pakistan, an overwhelming majority are not concerned about the Muslims in India, one way or the other. Individual Pakistanis have too many day to day problems of their own to solve, much less worry about the problems of Muslims in India (who willingly want to be in India). Every now and then, when they hear about things like Babri Masjid, they speak up, but apart from that they don`t really care. And they should not care. If the Muslims in India are quite happy, as you indicate, then that is good.

I don`t think Pakistan has ever indicated that it wants to be a spokesperson for Muslims living in India. There are Muslims living in every single country of the world, I doubt Pakistanis are too worried about any of them; apart from the ones who are actually being killed due to violence.

The only area in India that Pakistanis care about is the situation in Kashmir. And in my opinion, they have a very valid concern. Do you live in Kashmir, or are you affiliated with Kashmir in any sense? If you are, then I think your views regarding the Kashmiris may represent the views some groups in Kashmir also. If you are not a Kashmiri yourself, then most people will tend to give the views of the Kashmiri leaders, who are actually speaking for the Kashmiris, and are at the other end of oppression, more importance than your views. Since they are the ones who are being directly effected by the violence there.

To ali1:

The reason we dont react (presuming u are a pakistani) is that what is the point in doing so - unlike most muslims ( I would like to leave out our brothers from Indonesia area, and africa (black)- we dont mix politics with our faith unless there is a reason for doing so - Yes Chechnya, Israel and Bosnia are reasons for Jihad and I salute the brave mujahideen who go there but not Kashmir - its purely political intentions that drive it. I dont need to tell you about the status of Islam in India (I know how you guys hate to admit it) the over 400,000 mosques and quite easily the largest repository of Islamic knowledge ( you see we teach our children about the virtues of Islam and the ways of the Prophet(pbuh) and do not indoctrinate to kill those ``beastly Hindus`` - u may not be surprised to know that my best friends from school are all hindus - yes we do face apathy from the government who provide only electoral sops and nothing for our upliftment but the problem is also the suffering caused due to the creation of Pakistan (for your info it was not just Jinnah and Co. involved but also the likes of Sardar Patel, RSS etc. who dearly wanted to get rid of Muslim majority regions to have complete Raj over India) - though only 10% of Muslims left and became Mohajirs - they were the cream of the crop as can be seen from the biographies of all top Pakistani intellectuals when they pass away - we were left rudderless but not for long - watch out for the new generation of which I am a member - our love for our motherland is so deep that all fellow Indians know it - tell me of an Indian muslim you find abroad who has willingly come there if not for the economic need or discrimination he might have faced - I have full faith in Allah that he will solve these problems - and the way is true Hindu-Muslim unity - the Prophets message was one of peace and tolerance and thats why we love our land - thats why I have no problem in accepting my heritage - the Mahabharat and Ramayana dont hold an iota of religious value for me but just as the western greeks love their Homer`s Illiad and are proud so am I of my land`s rich past (the cradle of which u know is in the Indus valley). People who are dismissive of their identity and dont want to recognize it are the most unfortunate in the worldly life for what is their self confidence and source for motivation - I am a Muslim and know the tribe and nation into which I was born (refer Quran 49:13) - thats why when Pakistanis say their economic status is better than ours - I am not going to mention the likes of Azim Premji but tell that our mental piece is far greater than yours. So dont try to further deepen our hardship as else alas if we rise - then even your bluff on this Hindu-Muslim angle to Kashmir will also evaporate - I know you want revenge for 1971 at all cost. For us Kashmir is dear as it represent the only state in the land where Muslims are in a majority - a sense of belonging and a refutation of the two-nation theory which our grandfather`s adamantly refused (for which I am proud of them) - so no way is Pakistan going to get an inch of Kashmir - you can keep what we call Pok as there is no point in getting people who have been brainwashed to hate their very roots. Wasalaam

Oh to umairr please check the address of your President Mr. Rafiq Tarar during your Republic day parade ( I got it from the most respectable DAWN)

#220 & 223

Umairr: You are (of late) an officer and a gentleman. Please do not be so kind as to indicate that you have not understood the goal and intention of the Indians on these boards of the Chowk:

They show up and, as a certain ``Jay`` among them himself said, do something like, //provoke them, ask an inciting and inflaming question (e.g., How about Sindh?) that will keep all the Pakistanis busy in clarifying// the Sindh situation. Then, another joker shows up, while the Pakistanis are still clarifying the Sindh situation, and asks , ``well, how about the Taliban?, or Balochistan, or the `coup`, or, the international debt``. The Pakistanis either all take on both or all the issues and start writing the clarificatory posts. Some of the n`rm dil Pakistanis start apologizing for being Pakistanis, when a third Indian shows up and says ``so, who do you Pakistanis think you are?`` We have gober /technology/ with a three thousand years of civilization backing it and //the West wants to borrow the Indian technology// of gober gas``. Independent sources indicate that both gober and gober gas have reached the state of New Jersey!

[Well now, ignorance tera hi aasraa! The idea was North American and many ``Swineries`` in the United States and Canada have been heating their premises with the swine gober since 1959! They are being dropped now since the expense in equivalent ``human hours`` is many times more, in collection and production activity, than the use of alternative sources e.g. natural gas from below the earth. If we must be dependent on methane and related gases then India, of course, is a very rich country. Think about it. I remember that a few years ago, even though it was ridiculed by Johnny Carson, the threat to the ozone layer by the gases released by the cattle was looked upon as a real threat to the ozone layer of the earth.

Can you imagine the lowering of the threat by liquefying and canning the gases of one billion bean and daal eating beings! India`s shining, and well-lighted potential in the field of natural gas is at hand. The technology may not have an international market but that is beside the point. Any lengthy discussion is just so much wasted hot air! The winds of development are in the air, as it were!!]

``friend``(?), I thought that after a thorough drubbing in arguments, on another board, he had disappeared. But he has come back with his cow-urine drenched pen to tell umairr about what that khansaman of the ``barra khana`` wrote.

Hey freund, produces and parades this khansaman-cook here not because he is a Christian and, //therefore, assumed neutral (neutral for whom?)// but because he is a chitta sahib. Had he been a kala (non-white) Christian the `` non- vy-u-lence`` guys would have slaughtered him long time ago, not reproduced his pronouncements here, particularly if this non-white Christian also happened to be a khansaman-cook.

Now, umairr, do you see these Indians involving you in the same game that they have played with Pakistan. They have exported terrorism in Pakistan for the last twenty five years, still continue to do, and all this while they cry bloody murder against Pakistan, internationally, to keep Pakistan busy in denials of manufactured reports by Indians who never let the Pakistanis have time to present their own positive case.

The Indians on these boards, too, have played the same trick with you and the rest of the Pakistanis. Rather than letting the Pakistanis solve their own problems through their own mutual discussions, they have kept everybody busy in `defending` Pakistan.

The Indians learned long time ago that the Pakistanis, even among themselves, are really independent in their thinking. They differed most violently with each other on the question of the `coup` and then after discussion, most of them started talking of middle ground i.e., understanding of each other`s position, which to the Indians meant the danger of something positive emerging out of their discussions; an anathema. So, a full `Division` of them jumped in, with both feet, in these boards of the Chowk [upto yesterday 119 posts were by the Indians and 93 by Pakistanis on this board give or take a couple. Go figure!].

They started asking questions shrew-like and with the style of ``wey toon; abbey teri; aur tera; tey toon; arrey, hai hai, meri bhii sunnoun; aur meri bhi ! The result, of course, has been an abhorent absence of meaningful discussion ``among`` the Pakistanis!! A clear but abominable and horrendous achievement for the Indians of their goal.

I think Pakistanis are much too polite for their own good; or, at the very least, most of them are most of the time. And these Indians hamaari aankhon main ghusse challe aatey hain. Why the ell could Pakistanis not continue talking only, or mostly, to each other? Indians should have been ignored. After a while the sh`r p`snd Indians would have left. Any Indian with constructive ideas, arguments, and suggestions should have been most cordially welcomed to participate in the discussion. Don`t just be bloody polite; be politely selective.

I have quit coming regularly to the Chowk (I only come to see the abstracted, edited, selected news reproduced here by mohajir, sadhana and others. Saves me time to do the synopsis of news from so many sources myself, and money, if I hire a secretarial assistant). Still, whenever I come, I see posts from Indians saying, `` your prophet married a young ... .``, ``why did you...?`` and ``you don`t have this, you don`t have that``, and that ``that`` includes intelligence to money to morals to shame. To which the Pakistanis` answer should have been non-response; to some the answer should have been, à la ``Taxi Driver``, /Are you talking to me?/, /You talking to me?/, and bang, a devastating post and then ignoring, non-response. Do you know that there is nothing more agonizing to bullies than a non-response to their actions? Watch me give these bullies their just desserts.

So, my dear friend, Umairr, although I know you are not naive [an oxymoron of sorts since naiveté is part of the definition of being a `gentleman], still, if you honestly believe that this ``you this`` and ``you that`` kind of discussion keeps Indians and Pakistanis discussing with each other and is a ``positive`` thing, then you do, indeed, exhibit an extreme element of naiveté. It is not a necessary condition (as opposed to the ``sufficient``) that discussion with Indians on the Chowk take place for ``understanding`` and resolution of bi-national problems.

Ravian One

March 30, 2000

N.B. I would not like a Pakistani to respond on my behalf, for this post, if an Indian responds to it. I would choose my own respondents. Thank you.

Reply #: 240 krashid

``....General Pervez Musharraf has backing of whole nation behinnd him.``

krashid,

Apathy isn`t acceptance.

Shankar #212.

Now you say that you recognize the rights of Kashmiris.

Lets see what are the solutions to Kashmir.

There is only one solution. i.e political.

And armed struggle is just a means of getting political solution.

Why the condition deteriorated so much in Kashmir.

It was only because, Indian politics thought throughout history that by appeasing, Sheikh Abdullah and Farooq Abdullah, they will be able to control Kashmir.

Even in late 80,s and early 90`s when Kashmir struggle was in its infancy, this policy resulting in rigging and manipulation of election for Abdullah`s who always had a soft corner for India, resulted in further alienation of Kashmiris.

One of the factor might be that there was no stable Government in center, and they were being misguided by ruling elite of Kashmir or for whatever reasons.

Support of Pakistan made the matter only worse.

Now there is a strong independence movement in Kashmir.

If the situation remains as such, it will be very disadvantageous for India. Even if they are able to temporarily suppress the movement with further pouring of billions of dollars, the movement will be temporarily scaled back, to reiviogarate later. So whatever happens is a lose-lose situation for India.

Lets see another option. India is at a point in history, where there is a real chance of foreign investment and progress of this big nation. The other option, which India might be thinking is a small scale war or full fledged war with Pakistan.

Thus humiliating Pakistan will probably curb the forein hand.

That will be too simplistic for India to think.

A small scale war can be converted to full fledged war by Pakistan also.

This will be a great setback for India. In terms of foreign relations. As well as it will have disastrous consequences in India also.

The only solution at this time is self-determination of Kashmiris.

The ball is in India`s court.

It is not in Kashmiris court as you are saying, to abandon armed struggle and do Satya-Gara.

For Pakistan there is real danger of war with India. But this war is going to harm Pakistan much less politically than India.

And current stalemate is going to spread these kinds of movement in other parts of India.

correction #236: ``However, for all political purposes, they (we in my case) are dependent on Pakistan also, and thus a Pakistani cannot really tell when he crosses from Pakistan into Pakistani Kashmir.`` should read

``However, for all practical purposes, they (we in my case) are dependent on Pakistan also, and thus a Pakistani cannot really tell when he crosses from Pakistan into Pakistani Kashmir.``

Mohajir#218

Although the article you quoted reflect a visit to Pakistan and a cursory look.

Even then there were factual errors.

The article states that Both Zia-ul-Haque and Pervez Musharraf took over because of looting on exchequer by politicians.

Z A Bhutto was toppled after rigging in elections. And there were no charges of corruption against him. He was toppled by Zia-ul-Haq on the backing of America.

Nawaz Sharif was toppled not because of corruption, or sobotaging the institution of justice, press etc. He was toppled bacause he tried to do the same with army. General Pervez Musharraf has backing of whole nation behinnd him.

Friend#222

Although as usual, and as expected from an Indian, you are trying to divert issues regarding rights of Sindhi, Baluch, Pathan and Punjabi, Mohajir etc.

I can assure you that Muhajir are one of the most priviledged in Pakistan.

There are issues in every country, like Dalits, Muslims and Christians in India or State wide conflicts in India. But does it lead to a massive support of common man, to the point that almost half of Indian army is in Kashmir to Suppress the will of Kashmiris.

Situation in Kashmir is a situation of independence movement and no Kashmiri in his right mind would opt for India.

If one person is killed in Karachi, or Sind or Punjab the whole country goes in agitation, while these days daily more than ten Kashmiris are killed by Indian soldiers and nobody mourns and so far 70,000 to 80,000 Kashmiris have been killed.

Don`t divert the issue, and don`t lament.

Before lamenting on us lament your own people who sleep on footpath, lament on massacre of Sikhs in Dehli a few years back, lament on killing of christians and burning of churches recently. Lament on killing of Muslims in Bombay where police openly sided with Shiv Sena. You want to hear more about rest of India.

Resolve those things, before opening your mouth against our rights.

We know our rights. We know how to achieve that.

Everyone:

Can anyone recall a single posting by an Indian(a.k.a hindus) which is scornfuuly critical of India,hinduism,its culture & anything connected with it? Most likely no.The reason for this is very simple.India(Dharti) is their religion.Hinduism IS India,lest muslims are deluded to believe otherwise.If there was free discussion then we would discuss it as honest individuals but here the enemy inside & outside is busy pummelling Pakistan,Islam & Arabs only.I feel it my duty to point it out.

Pakistan is here to stay & we do not have to merge to be friends.As per Jinnah`s definition Pakistan came into being the day the first hindu in India became a muslim.It is NOT just only about a tract of land.Our nationality is NOT anchored to it.There are 150Mil. Pakistans still left behind in India.The Indian `secularism` can never smother them.

Mongols came to conquer Iraq & Iran---but got conquered instead by the faith.They punished the corrupt farangi-ised(Roman & Greek) `muslim` kings and got love-smitten by the Islamic scholars.This is happening right within our view today.American soldiers returning from the Gulf War are becoming muslims in droves & going back again as volunteers to various war-fronts.Islam has no use for farangi-ised `muslims` whether Pakistani or otherwise.This is the only religion which encourages its doubtful adherents to leave.The process is open & transparent!!

Some of my simple-minded Pakistani muslim friends have gotten so carried away by the farangi concept of free-thinking that they might be unwittingly playing into the enemy hands.

``Doolah baney tho hadd e mussarrat sey brh gaey

Ghorray ko laat maar kay sooli pey charrh gaey``

(tr: In the glee of being a bride-groom,their

excitement became unbound

They kicked the horse,and in one lap leap,wore noose their neck,around).

PS:This is a plea to my Pakistani muslims only & I do not intend it to turn into a debate.There is no room for debate when biases(principles) & predujuices(pride) are involved.I intend to retain mine & guard them fiercely.



wassalaam

vicky #229

First of all, I have to point out that nowhere have I mentioned that I am from the Pakistani army or from the Indian army, hence I am unable to comment on your questions about the specific events which you mentioned, yes, I definitely can comment on the generic issues which you raised. What I have written is equally applicable to either side.

First, you have to remember that for a jawan, he is a relatively simple man, much akin to your higher secondary, 11/12 grade graduate, that is his job, concepts of honour or higher aspects are rather minimal. You have to understand that a soldier spends most of his time waiting for his job, praying that his job doesn`t actually happen, as Ummair mentioned. Honour is a very expensive emotion, Sir, and I have to pay for it with my life. Contrary to popular option, very few jawans actually hate the other side. They are amorphous objects, places to bury your bayonet in or an area to be peppered by shrapnel using a air burst. The office class is of a different category altogether, given their differences in education and motivational levels, they do understand honour and political exigencies. The jawan will hate it if his comrade is left behind, but he will blame his masters, but will not mutiny, so to speak. On the other hand, you have to realise that if the rationale was given as religion, then there is no defence and the ordinary jawan will accept it, just as he will accept the reason being the defence of the motherland.

temporal #232

You were very correct when you mentioned that war is just an instrument of policy. That is exactly what I am trying to say on these boards, when you and I, the civilians create policy, somebody has to die. That is one major reason that gets my goat when even people like us, highly educated, mostly living in western economies, we start baying for blood. We should be more responsible, since we are essentially responsible for their deaths. Asking for final fights and defending to the last drop is so cowardly, surely we can do better than that?

Cheers

bd

aurangzed #227: ``just as your President said it is essential for your survival`` Which President are you talking about? Kashmir is only essential for the survival of Kashmiris; it is neither essential for your survival, nor mine. The Pakistan stand is as follows:

````ISLAMABAD: Foreign Secretary Inam-ul-Haq on Wednesday, said Pakistan did not have any territorial ambitions over Kashmir region and it only wanted realisation of the right to self-determination of the Kashmiri people in accordance with the United Nations resolutions.`` (DAWN, Pakistan)``

``my sympathies for the mohajirs who are faced with terrible identity problems -`` Mohajirs do face certain unique problems in Pakistan; mostly because the size of their community is smaller than the size of other ethnic communities. Also, because there is an unfair (in my opinion) affirmative action law in Sind. However, on the whole, Mohajirs are by far the wealthiest, most educated, and upwardly mobile groups in Pakistan. An overwhelming amount of Pakistani computer scientists in Silicon Valley are from Karachi. The average living standard of a mohajir is much higher than the average living standard of a Sindhi, Punjabi, Baluchi, Kashmiri, or Pathan.

The city in which they are a majority, i.e. Karachi is still the business, financial, and trade center of Pakistan. Until the recent violence, people from all over Pakistan used to migrate to Karachi. Karachi now has a bigger Pathan population than Peshawar, which is in the heart of NWFP. Gen. Musharraf is a mohajir by the way.

Unfortunately, just like other communities, mohajirs have been greatly let down by their political leadership, MQM. MQM was the first non-religious middle class powerful party in Pakistan. It was really a progressive phenomenon. It had great potential, and could have broken the back of the feudal and corrupt businessman political culture in Pakistan. I used to be a great fan of Altaf Hussain (head of MQM). Initially, I would have voted for them, had MQM spread out to Punjab (which they had planned to do). Now I would probably vote for Imran Khan or Asghar Khan). But after a while, its leaders became part of the problem that they initially wanted to solve. They basically turned to violence and thuggery and corruption, and MQM is now generally held responsible for the overall violence in Karachi. As usual, they blame the opposition political parties, and the army for their predicament; who in turn blame them.

ravi #288: ``This is an infeasible proposition. Until the border issue with China is resolved India will keep large quantities of forces in Ladakh.`` You are correct. Let me alter and rephrase. India can keep forces in Ladakh, provided they do not enter into the valley, which will be protected by the UN forces.

``. Logistics for Ladakh pass mainly through Zoji La. Unless the Rohtang tunnel is completed (3-4 Years min from start to finish) no Indian govt. can forsake passage of troops through the valley for the defense of Ladakh.``

This is a valid point also. I discussed it with someone else earlier. I hope building tunnel is worth peace between India, Pakistan, and Kashmir. My suggestion build the tunnel at breakneck speed. Maybe other countries can aid in building the tunnel, also. It cannot be harder than building the chunnel from France to England.

``And how do you define Jammu? Is it separated from Kashmir by the Pir Panjal Ridge Line? In that case it would include Punch and Rajauri. There is a sizeable minority presence in this area unlike the Kashmir valley. Can we be confident that a police force alone can provide adequate protection to minorities in this area? Same goes for Doda and Udhampur. At the very least Para military troops must be deployed in these regions. Pakistan will ask for the same in POK. In the long term there would be ethinic cleansing in this area similar to that in the valley, and tensions would rise again.``

Another valid point (you are bringing up some very valid points). I had assumed that Jammu and Ladakh both go to India. I need to pull out the detailed maps and study it a bit more, and look at the minority-majority ratios in the areas you have mentioned. Wherever Jammu goes, it would very important that their is no reverse ethnic cleansing. Their will be incidences of this, and that is why the UN forces need to be there. If Pakistani or Indian or Kashmiri forces are used to control reverse ethnic cleansing, then they will considered biased. Believe me, the UN, US, EU, Japan etc. will be more than happy to send their forces en masse to assure that two nuclear powers keep peace. I am not talking about a UN police force; I am talking about a full-fledged UN army. Belive me, neither Pakistan nor India nor Kashmiris will ever attack a UN army with the backing of the Security Council.

``Just some thoughts on the idea. It’s not as clear cut as it appears, there are a lot of very grey areas. And central to all this, as I said in my last post, is the ability of Pakistan to keep the beards in check - which at present it has absolutely no incentive to.``

Thanks for your very valid info. I realize it is gray; I am only a part time peace activisit, and a full time comp. sci. It is only the initial plan. Regarding Pakistan`s ability to keep the beards in check. That is a valid point also. The beards themselves claim that the moment the Kashmiris get their right to self-determination, they will switch from the jehad of battle, to the jehad of re-construction of Kashmir. What cause will they be fighting for after that? And will they be willing to fight the UN forces? Also once this separation takes place, then their will be firm international borders between India, Pakistan and Kashmir. So any cross border violation will be considered a crossing of an international border, and not the crossing of an LOC (there is a big difference). Also once the Kashmiris get their right of self-determination, their indigenous freedom movement would end, since they would have achieved their purpose. External sources can only aid the indegenous movements, they cannot start one. Finally, Pakistan will itself control the beards whole-heartedly (and not half-heartedly, as it does now) once the Kashmir problem is solved. The reason Pakistan does not attempt to control them completely right now, is because it wants it wants some kind of an initiative from India on solving the Kashmir problem first.

shankar #230: ``The only disagreement I have with your proposal is that Pakistanis can get visas to go to Kashmir, but Indians cant. What will that do to the thousands of Kashmiri pandits who have fled the valley because of ethnic cleansing? Should they not go back to their homeland & have a voice in the independance vote?``

I think I wasn`t clear enough. What I meant to say was that Indians would be able to go back and forth between the Kashmir valley without a visa (at least for ten years). It would be an open border for Indians. While Pakistanis would have to apply for an official visa to enter Kashmir.

The country that is giving up occupied land always has to be given some preference over the country that is supporting and aiding the freedom movement, but not giving up any land.

There is something the Indians need to keep in mind. An independent Kashmir will have to keep strong trading and logisitical ties with India. It is land-locked and cannot survive on its own. Its traditional logistic routes to the sea still pass through India. With an open border with India only, it will still be strongly alligned with India; this time by choice and not by force. It will also be dependent on Indian tourists etc. I read in a French magazine, that ironically the current economy of Kashmir is being supported by the money the Indian troops spend in the shops and bazaars of Kashmir.

Kashmir valley will just not be under the political control of India; but for all practical purposes (trade, finances, tourism, access to seaports etc.), it will be heavily dependent on India. So for all the Indians who do not support the right of Kashmiri self-determination, it would be much easier for you to visit an independent Kashmir than an occupied Kashmir. Infact Kashmiris would probably welcome Indian as tourists, and not try to kill them as Indian soldiers. By the way, Paksitani Kashmir has its own president, flag, and assembly etc.. Even though, Pakistan is under martial law, Kashmir is still under its own democratic leadership. However, for all political purposes, they (we in my case) are dependent on Pakistan also, and thus a Pakistani cannot really tell when he crosses from Pakistan into Pakistani Kashmir.

``Secondly, what is to prevent thousands of mujahadeen to legally get into Kashmir, establish permanent residency there & influence the local politics? Even though their primary targets are the Indian army & hindus; they have threatened & killed Kashmiri muslims who dont agree with them.``

Good question. I doubt they jehadis would do that. After they would have finished fighting in Kashmir, they will take off to the next area (perhaps Chechnya) where they feel Muslims are not getting their right of self-determination. The jehadis (at least the ones fighting in Kashmir) are not political organizations. They are more like an army. The Kashmiris themselves would not want them in Kashmir any longer, since they would then become competitors. The jehadis have themselves stated they will stop their violence, once Kashmiris get a vote. Pakistan would control them within Pakistan also.

And finally, crossing an LOC and fighting a battle with the support of the local population against the Indian military in an area considered by the UN to be occupied, is one thing. Crossing an internationally recognized border, to fight against the local population, and against a UN force with soldiers from various different coutries, in an internationally recognized independent country is completely another thing.

Thanks for the comments. This is just an initial draft. It is by no means meant to be perfect. Just some food for thought.

aurangzeb # 227

(For a change?) good to see an Indian muslim supporting his motherland.

At a local (the largest) mosque in South SF bayarea, I was surprised to hear the Imam pray for the success of Jehad in Kashmir in the Juma prayers. I expected the large number of Indian muslims present there to protest but they gently said ``Aameen`` (Amen) and left. I would have been proud of my Indian muslim brethern if at least one would have stood up and asked the Imam to shut up.

Assad K

My mistake. Thanks for the clarification :)