Why Clinton should visit Pakistan

Because had he not done so, a large number of members of the House on both sides would have made life miserable for this loafer whose trip would have been seen purely as a junket for his daughter and the mother-in-law. A sight seeing tour for himself and the family at the expense of the Public Purse (just think what would it have been if the President or Prime Minister of Pakistan had done this!). Not that it has not been criticised by some in the U.S. on this account, but those are muffled noises.

In both Chambers of the House there are enough members who care about Pakistan per se, as well as for the image of the United States treating an ally of half a century so shabbily.

These were factors relevant to the United States` own interest. Pakistan`s image one way or the other didn`t bother the U.S. The same way India`s won`t be, a few months or years down the road!

Sincerely.

#298

Dear Depilatory: You ask us to guess who you are, and when we do, you go nuts. What do you want?

Thank you, I am, as you know you are, quite comfortable at the night job.

The topic of the board is ``Why Clinton Should Visit Pakistan?`` Stick to it; don`t start taking its hair off.

Most sincerely yours.

Yamlaah,

Humour is not your forte buddy.Stick to your night job :)

Dear Depilatory(#296):

Seniormost among women?

Or, are you a queen, or the Prime Minister?

Yahmla Jat..

Do you know who Iam??I hold a seniormost position in England. If you want to know the XYZ of the report contact the education department in England.

Regards

I am taking a leisurely stroll through Chowk today. I first went to my first love ``He Had No Choice``, on which I lost my first intended target of ``Yahmla Jat affection``, the Syed Ha. I left a message for P. Musharraf, that nang-e-din, nang-e-watan, creature. And then came to this board.

Saw nair (#393). Does anybody, including himself, know from which dark crevice or cavity, (or fold) does this depilatory speak!

I suggest close this board. Pakistanis have done well not to address themselves to the Indians` continued distractions. Carry on your discussions amongst yourselves; ignore these ill-willing distractors.

Khuda Hafiz

Re Agnostics various posts:

I have just completed a study of Pakistani students in England.After five years of extensive research I have come to the conclusion that a total of 1321 students came from Pakistan to England for higher studies on scholarships.

Here is the breakup of the students.

1. 1200 Punjabis

2. 121 Mohajirs

There were no Baluchis or Sindhis.All the 121 Mohajirs are related to Pervez Musharaff.

Note: If anybody doubts the veracity of my report please contact the Ministry of Education in England.Please ask for my photo.

Regards.

#290

Had I not known any better, or, had you been my friend, I would have called you McStupid (Gold Medalist!). But you are neither.

Eversince I started reading your posts I have been convinced of the negation of the Peter Principle; in your case.

Cut it out man!

``Agnostic writes :

In my analysis of 40 years of history of Indian university students in the U.S. and Canada, I found only eight Indian Muslims who were beneficiaries of the Government`s scholarships or exchange programs as opposed to tens of thousands of Hindus with a negligible sprinkling of Sikhs. Further, either three fourths of Hindus are Brahmins in India, or they get preference in such a way that over 3/4ths of Hindu students were Brahmins. I visited 67 universities over a period of four and an half years.

My answer :

Agnostic is incredible.``

Yes, that he is. An ``Incredibly`` good researcher. Pay attention to him. Quit bumbling, and fumbling; some of you bumptious people are all in a lather.



I Know!!

In reply to Agnostic :

I`m supposed to be impressed that the State Department knows your name ? You want a photo as I find out who you are ? The more ``important`` or ``well-known`` it turns out to be, the more my face would reflect ``Aha ! I knew the Peter Principle is correct``.

You have made a claim about Government of India scholarships that is totally unsubstantiated. In my own graduating class, the all-India Number 1, the Institute Gold Medalist, one of two Rhodes scholars selected for that year (three different people) did not qualify for any such scholarship -- precisely because these scholarships do not exist.

You have ample opportunity to not be caught out in a lie, you have not taken it so far.

My last word on the subject.

-arun gupta

#388 MacGupta

I saw a black cat cross my path and my neighbour sneeze like crazy when I headed for the evening walk today. On my return I saw your name on top of your post.

Quit jumping up and down for joy. The Chowk has already done the changing since -- after a malfunction in my computer when I had to depend on a temporary net-generated profile -- the Chowk declined to accept my usual username so I had to invent one BUT left the usual one intact in the post.

You want to know my real name? And the ABC of the Report? Get in touch with the State Department. Take a self-photograph. I want to see the expression on your face. You already know my real name!

What counts is the information. Forget the `pseudonyms`. They are inconsequential. Remember the ``Cheap Detective``? ( A Peter Falk movie).

In reply to Agnostic :

Time to change your pseudonym. The only asset one has on forums like this is one`s credibility -- are readers willing to consider seriously what one says.

Yours just evaporated to zero.

-arun gupta

dragon slayer#285:

after copying and pasting from FAS, kindly pay attention to the sources of thier information, mentioned at the bottom.

also take the trouble to look up the brilliant achievements of the isi in india and elsewhere and the sources of that information.

i wrote to john pike asking him that while the nefarious activities of both isi and raw were mentioned in great detail, why was the cia dealt with in a very benign manner? he replied with the statement - `we will add more info about cia in due course!`.

Sigh ...Chowk has lost its fizz. Gymnosophist has mellowed quite a bit and Hamidm has practically disappeared.

Ref Agnostic on Indian scholarships for study abroad:

As one who actually attempted to get one, I can say with some first-hand knowledge that the only scholarships were those offered on a governmental basis. Thus, you had the Fulbright awards, British Council scholarships, the Rhodes Scholarship offered by Oxford, scholarships to study in Russia or one of its satellites, etc. I even remember a scholarship advertised for study in Japan.

Not one of these was paid for by the Government of India. They were offered by the host countries.

There probably was some educational assistance offered by the US, again at a government-to-government level, that enabled the Indian government to establish IIT-Kanpur and send several of its newly-recruited faculty for study in the US. These of course would be conditional in that the awardee would have to return to India and serve in a teaching institution.

If you spend some time in an IIT (which are famous for exporting entire graduating classes to the US, Canada and the UK), you would know that the students apply and obtain graduate assistantships from universities abroad and that the government has nothing to do with this. In fact, I knew of an IIT-Bombay guy who was surprised to receive an offer of assistantship from Rice University in Houston when, for family reasons, he could not go abroad and had not applied to any overseas university. Upon inquiry, he was told by Rice that Rice had contacted the Dean and asked for the names of the top students and selected those recommended by the Dean. Since this guy was the #1 ranked student (winning the President`s Gold Medal), his name was on the top of the list and Rice wanted to have him.

Agnostic, you will have more credibility if you would tell us exactly what scholarships are offered by the Govt of India for study abroad. You see, some of us are willing to believe that there is a conspiracy to keep these scholarships for the Hindi belt and we would like some ammunition when we yell and scream at the Central Government.

Sattyavadi #252

``India and RAW are on the attack again. Now the Hindu strategy is to commit simultaneous attacks on civilian`s as at Lahore, Kasur, and Rawalpindi. So, this time RAW`s strategy is to show as if the bombings [were] a result of verdict against Mr. Nawaz Sharif. But,

nobody is fooled in Pakistan. The odiferous ... RAW can be detected miles away.

[//]Pakistan will have to catch and destroy the estimated 100,000 Indian RAW agents that India has successfully implanted on Pakistani soil.[ ] See, http://sun00781.dn.net/irp/world/india/raw/index.html

ISI has totally failed in its responsibility. The organization needs to be reorganized as three agencies. One for internal security, second for foreign operations, and the third to target India. India will have to be defeated through proactive counter operations

inside India. www.dawn.com



25 injured as bombs rock Lahore, Rawalpindi and Kasur:

ISLAMABAD, April 7: A powerful bomb blast at a bus station in Lahore today injured at least 15 people, hours after another blast in nearby Rawalpindi wounded four people, police said. The Lahore explosion injured mostly commuters crowded around a bus stand at the city`s main bus terminal, as well as two police guarding the area, a senior police official said. At least three of the wounded were rushed to hospital with serious injuries, he added. Earlier, four people were hurt in a bomb explosion outside a hotel in the city of Rawalpindi. No group has claimed responsibility for the blasts, which come a day after ex-prime minister Nawaz Sharif was sentenced to life imprisonment by an anti-terrorism court.

Six persons were injured seriously in a bomb blast in Kasur on Friday night near Steel Garden. According to details, a passenger

Wagon No.6261-LXL was coming from Lahore, when it reached at a petrol pump near Steel Garden Chowk suddenly a bomb, placed in the wagon exploded as a result of which the wagon conductor and five passengers received serious injuries who were

rushed to DHQ hospital Kasur. The district administration and high ups of police departmet after hearing the tragic news reached the site of blast and supervised the rescue and relief work.

(AFP)(Updated @ 03:00 PST, Saturday)``

``Agnostic writes :

In my analysis of 40 years of history of Indian university students in the U.S. and Canada, I found only eight Indian Muslims who were beneficiaries of the Government`s scholarships or exchange programs as opposed to tens of thousands of Hindus with a negligible sprinkling of Sikhs. Further, either three fourths of Hindus are Brahmins in India, or they get preference in such a way that over 3/4ths of Hindu students were Brahmins. I visited 67 universities over a period of four and an half years.

My answer :

Agnostic is incredible.``

Yes, that he is. An ``Incredibly`` good researcher. Pay attention to him. Quit bumbling, and fumbling; some of you bumptious people are all in a lather.

Didn`t have to go looking for new ``arsenal``. Deal with the above with some brains and cool!

I Know!!

Ref Gautama Siddhartha Buddha #: 280

You say (And then I had the misfortune of seeing reply #275.)

I thought it answered one of your questions. As Hindu scriptures repeatedly tell us, one becomes a Brahmin not by birth but by his deeds. And I gave you the most perfect example of a lady who has lived her life according to the highest tenets of her religion, doing good for the common people of the land, and in the process elevating herself in the eyes of her people.

You say (Gymno: You are an utterly silly man, most singularly in love with yourself and your self imagined scholarship; an abomination incarnate.}

Tut, tut tut. I don`t consider my attainment (less than a doctoral degree in computer science) to be the highest level of scholarship. And as some learned scientist once said, any subject that has science in its name is bogus. That lumps me with those who study social science!

You say (But listen, all of you self-righteous Indians who have been reminding me about my Pakistani mentality and suffering the Mullahs who have brainwashed me: I didn`t wish to be called ``Ramchandani`` and adopted GSB. //I am a better Brahamin than all of you twice-borns put together.// I belong to a most well-to-do Hindu family of Hyderabad and Karachi. Ask Karachiwalas if they know the Moton Buildings in Bolton Market on (Bunder Road) Shahrah-e Quaide-e-Azam. Well, I own two bigger buildings besides and all the businesses, national and international, housed in them!)

As a Brahmin, you should know we value our knowledge and not our worldly wealth. Your property in Karachi and Hyderabad are irrelevant. So, introduce yourself in the proper manner, mentioning your rishi paramparya, your gotra, the Veda and the sutra you have read, and your sharma. Let me jog your memory: the proper introduction in Sanskrit begins ``Abhivadaye...``

You say {So, don`t be an uppity Indian Hindu with me. Remain within your parameters. Re-read my question and tell yourself dur fité mouNh for reading things in my question that were not there. My published works have been used all over the world including India, Israel, Germany, the Netherlands, Great Britain and North America. Citations of my publications regularly appear in Social Sciences Citation Index.)

Would you please explain the question you asked in #38? To refresh your memory, let me quote:

``Not related to the above but relevant to the question of fertility: Although both sexes worship Siva Lingam when, in exclusive women Darsans, women rub their pudenda against it, is it dry or all the ghee poured over it is allowed to remain on it?``

Exactly what journal of anthropology or sociology do you propose to publish this information in? Inquiring minds want to know. I do realize that articles in scientific journals tend to provide details yet in the interest of space they omit some information. Do you think the level of lubrication in the alleged activity is of interest to the scientific community which is most likely interested in the behavioral and sociological aspects?

Should I search for your publications under Ramchandani or Gautama Siddhartha Buddha? What university in Pakistan or elsewhere are you associated with? Or, are you like one of those 18th and 19th century explorers who were not associated with an educational institution but carried on their anthropological research because they were the first ones to wander through darkest Africa or through the highlands of Central Provinces in India? Perhaps you were inspired to emulate Sir Richard Francis Burton -- who is known to have documented the brothels of your hometown Karachi -- when you asked this question?

And as a social scientist doing research, you were unaware of books such as ``Castes and Tribes of... India`` which were the earliest books documenting Indian society and which were based on actual field research?

You say (If I wanted I could have torn ``Jay`s`` response to my #38, to smithereens but since I got a decent response from you I refrained from getting into an old stereotypical ``feminine`` jhagrra (no chauvinism intended at all, here) so typical of the Chowk and USUALLY initiated by the Indians, Sadhanna, and Jay consistently, and Mohajir and Arun McGupta at different times, being the most ujjagar among them.

But your ``afterthought`` and reading of motives in my question indicates to me the shallowness of your profundity! Hollow.}

But I already read motives in your question. In #50, I wrote ``You claim you actually wanted information for your research paper and so I have provided it. But methinks that you are pissed off at Jay`s implication that Pakistan wouldn`t last another 22 years if that is how long it takes for the next US presidential visit to South Asia.`` You were not upset at that but you are upset now because I read a different motive this time?

And don`t say goodbye to Chowk. Where would Chowk be without such interactions as the two of us are having?

Stuka #190 I did indeed read your post. I agree that the scenario of a ``Hostile India`` is a con game instituted on the people of Pakistan. There is a great need to change the image of India from that of an enemy to that of a friendly neighbor with common goals and aspirations for making the subcontinent a better part of the world and with a rich and diverse culture.

Having said this, I do maintain that nuclear weapons are a cost-effective defense mechanism since we unfortunately do have to take the military threat from India seriously. This is because India is not free from the image of a ``Hostile Pakistan`` either and the Advanis in India are certainly not on the fringes of power in India.

I pray one day things will change and (as I said before on chowk) one day we can toss away the nukes and maybe even disband our armies (I dont think it is unrealistic to see the world moving slowly but surely in that general direction anyway). But that day will come only after both Indians and Pakistanis (even if only as individuals) make efforts to promote better appreciation and respect for the two countries.

gymnosophist #275

Very nicely written

Temporal #276

With all due respect, I didn’t read any “barbs” in gymnosophist’s article. What you perceived as insults are really truths about the contrast between the Indian perspective and that of the religious intolerance which is at the heart of Pakistani ideology. Now, that’s not to say that Pakistanis are intolerant, nor do I want to preach about Indian unity. The point I’m trying to make is that the real difference between India and Pakistan is that Indians are not weighed down by the ideological baggage that comes with a Pakistani passport. South Asians have enough problems without constantly having to call into question their own religious identity (especially if they feel that that religious identity conflicts with their ethnic/cultural identity). The fact that Indians call themselves Indians for no other reason then that they originate from the subcontinent has been a tremendous freedom. It has allowed India to sidestep many of the issues and ideological hang-ups that keep Pakistan down.

Why is Pakistan letting it`s roof collapse over it while posturing to appear more concerned about the leaking faucet in Kashmir?

- Kaffir

PS: I wish I was awarded 10 paise for everytime the word ``Kashmir`` was used in the Pakistani media and political circles. And I`d be willing to pay out 10 paise for everytime the word ``poverty alleviation`` or ``economic structuring`` or ``clean water`` or ``personal freedom`` is used. You know what? I`d be a bloody millionaire very very soon.

gymnosophist #275

I am grateful to you for sharing these valuable facts and insights.

Sadhana

gymnosophist #275:

Thank you for the information. It was a learning experience.

(If you do not mind: the barbs were not necessary. There are good, bad, moderate, liberal, fundamentalist Muslims, Hindus, Christians of all colours and hues. Let us celebate the diversity and focus on strengthening moderation, love and understanding.)

regards

temporal

Ref Gautama Siddhartha Buddha #: 38

You asked {3. The custom of Dev Dasis (Religious prostitution) is still practised in India. Where does the Constitution stand on it? What happens to the children? Do they automatically become Brahmans through patri-consanguneal ties? //If so//, how can we tell a bustard Brahman from a legitimate -- born to nazeeb-ut-tarfain -- Brahmins?}

I already gave you an answer to this question. But it has taken me 2 weeks to realize that I have been staring at the picture of a lady of devadasi heritage which was on the cover of a CD while I wrote that reply and that I didn`t remember that fact. In fact, most people do not know that fact or care to remember it.

I am referring to M. S. Subbulakshmi, the great Carnatic vocalist. Born some 85 years ago, she is blessed with such a beautiful voice that she recorded her first gramaphone record at the age of 10 (at a time when it was well-nigh impossible for major Indian musicians to record their music). She caused a country-wide sensation when her movie Meera (made both in Hindi and Tamil) was released and she became a household name. She was chosen for the role both for her singing voice and for her extraordinary beauty as a young woman. She retired from the film world after making only 4 movies and married Sadasivam Iyer, a Brahmin, in the early 1940s. Under his guidance, she burnished her musical talents and became the foremost female vocalist. She and her publisher husband turned their energies to the independence movement and her concerts would always include songs praising Mother India and demanding independence from Britain.

She was elected the President of the Madras Music Academy ahead of several male singers who were senior to her in years (by the way, Carnatic vocal music is dominated by Brahmin males, so she beat the Brahmins). She has donated all the money earned through her concerts to worthwhile charitable causes in India. Her public service was recognized by her being given the Magsaysay Award by the Government of Philippines. Recently, she was honored with India`s topmost honor, the Bharat Ratna. She has toured several countries of the world under both Government of India auspices and under private sponsorship. She is the first non-Western musician to give a concert at the United Nations in New York.

Listening to her music, Bade Ghulam Ali Khan called her ``Su-swara Lakshmi`` (Goddess of Good Music) but then he belonged to those days when a Muslim did not consider it beneath him to learn the language of the kaffirs nor did the Muslims of the subcontinent look toward Arabia for everything.

MS wears the traditional 9-yard sari of the Brahmin women. Nobody questions her right to wear it. Her pronunciation of Sanskrit would put to shame the most learned Brahmin of Benares. She is received as a Brahmin by everybody and no one cares to recall the circumstances of her birth.

Yet, her initials M.S. stand for Madurai (her hometown) and Shanmukhavadivu (her mother`s name, as opposed to the father`s name as is the case with South Indians) as would be traditional with her origin.

If you have the talent and you are willing to work hard at your task, there is nothing that would prevent your rise to the top in India, least of all the circumstance of your birth. And along the way, you would find some iconoclastic Brahman who would go against his upbringing to marry you.

When I re-read your question, I could see that you were in fact sneering at the devadasis. On the other hand, a strictly conservative South Indian Brahmin overcame his family`s objections and society`s opprobrium to marry one.

Now you know the difference between a mullah who blindly follows a 7th century book and a Brahmin who knows when to listen to his heart and ignore his scriptures.

That, and that alone, is enough to ensure that despite all the injustices of Indian society, there will always be hope for our downtrodden.

PS. One of MS`s last major efforts was to record in song selected poems of the Ramayana written by the 13th century Tamil poet Kambar. Her collaborator in this effort, who helped select 30 poems out of this epic which would summarize Lord Rama`s life and who taught her the archaic poetic Tamil so that she could properly pronounce the words was Mr. Justice Ismail of the Madras High Court. We consider it our good fortune that no Indian mullah has declared Justice Ismail`s love of Tamil language and Tamil literature to be incompatible with his being a Muslim.

According to the ``India 1998`` Handbook that is compiled by the Ministry of Information & Broadcasting, Govt. of India, scholarships for study abroad are primarily Ph.D. and post-doctoral, and arise from exchange programs, bilateral agreements, Commonwealth scholarships and adhoc scholarship offers received from different countries (i.e., the foreign country always has a hand in administering these scholarships).

During 1996-97, 104 candidates went to countries like Germany, France, Ireland, Australia, UK, Japan, China, Italy, Canada, Belgium, Mexico, Israel and South Korea.

* * *

That is right, a total of ONE HUNDRED FOUR candidates in 1996-97. Not one to the United States. Meanwhile, Agnostic has met tens of thousands of Hindus who have received such scholarships.

Oh well, either deceitful dhoti-clad Hindu banias have conspired again to hide the truth. Or else, it is the Reality Distortion Field that has hit Agnostic.

-arun gupta

Still on education and other weighty matters:

I seem to remember the Hindi writer Prem Chand being quoted in these hallowed forums.

Well, lets get back to basics. We had to read Prem Chand, too, at the age of 7 or 8 as part of our language curriculum. The story was `Idgah`, about the festival of Id, about a little orphan boy and the colorful Id fair where there are toys on display, very tempting to a little boy of his age and affordable in the very few paise that he had. But he would not be distracted from his resolve to buy for his old grandmother a pair of tongs, because he felt sorry to see her burning her fingers whenever she cooked for him. The tongs cost a little too much, however, and the shopkeeper was not sympathetic ... so it went.

My point is, it seems there is a lot of difference between the aims of educational curriculums in India and Pakistan. It seems one attempts to encourage growth of a composite identity and the other attempts to build an exclusive identity. While fostering an attitude of `humanization of humanity` is attempted in one, dehumanization of those defined as `enemies` or `evil` is attempted in the other.

Organizations like the RSS have made the argument that `humanization` or efforts to forge or reinforce the already existing `composite identity` have weakened Indians, and made them ill-prepared to handle the real-world exclusivity out there.

Well, I don`t happen to agree, and I think many other Indians don`t either. Lets see how it goes, perhaps this question will be settled only after the ash settles.

Sadhana

FK & Agnostic have certainly gone back to find new arsenal to hit ``dhoti wrapped hindus``. hope that they will be back new ammunition.

I wonder, why umair is not responding to queries about part of Kashmir gifted to China and grabbed by Pakistan and nothern areas. Will his plan have something for those areas too?

Agnostic writes :

In my analysis of 40 years of history of Indian university students in the U.S. and Canada, I found only eight Indian Muslims who were beneficiaries of the Government`s scholarships or exchange programs as opposed to tens of thousands of Hindus with a negligible sprinkling of Sikhs. Further, either three fourths of Hindus are Brahmins in India, or they get preference in such a way that over 3/4ths of Hindu students were Brahmins. I visited 67 universities over a period of four and an half years.

My answer :

Agnostic is incredible.

a. There are no Indian government scholarships for study abroad for general degree programs -- bachelor`s, master`s or Ph.D. Govt. of India does send govt. of India employees abroad for specific training. So Agnostic is lying about meeting tens of thousands of Hindus on such scholarships.

b. Indian universities do not collect statistics on the castes or religions of the students if the students are ``forward castes``. The only statistics would be for the categories that do have reservations : Scheduled Castes and Tribes and Other Backward Classes. It would be extremely difficult for Agnostic to divide up those that do not fall into the reserved categories into Hindu and non-Hindu and the Hindus into Brahmins and non-Brahmins.

c. Most US universities also do not collect statistics on the religions of their students.

The ones that do would be exceptions like the infamous Bob Jones University.

-arun gupta

My understanding of the scholarships issue is that there are NO Indian Govt scholarships for study abroad. There are partial scholarships available from private institutions such as Goenka and other foundations. In addition, you do get Rotary Scholarships (only one year). Other govt scholarships are available like from British Council, DAAD (German Academic Exchange Scholarships), Shastri Indo Canadian Scholarships. There are also some UNESCO scholarships mucking around, the best book which I found was an UNESCO publication called as Study Abroad which lists ALL internationally available scholarships.

On the other hand, it should be noted that some of these scholarships given by the foreign governments are given to the students, but these are considered to be grants to the Nation. For example, several British Council Scholarships are given to the students, but the initiation of the scheme by the British Government was done on the basis that the total sum of money is part of bilateral AID Assistance (IDA Scheme).

Farangi_kush, #262,

You certainly put those ``dhoti wrapped, leeside vending hindus`` in their place. A small point of clarification please, could you define ``ruthless`` and ``relentless and unabated damage``?

Sincerely

bd

indian govt giving scholarships for studies in usa?

fat chance!

satyavadi #266

``Your posts seem to give the impression that most of the scholarships are need based or go to the minorities. I think there are quite a few purely merit based scholarships too. But I havent heard of one scholarship for studies in the US, specifically- which is what Agnostic is talking about. I am sure there scholarships in this category, but there is hardly any chance that ``tens of thousands`` of students would have gotten them. Why would the govt sponsor someone to study in the US, except if the education is going to be in a very advanced field (like say nuclear or advanced aerospace or sapce sciencce) for which there is no insitiution in India or is not advanced enough.

But the govt sponosoring ordinary Electrical Engineers and Mechanical Engineers, forget it..``

Let me clarify: all the scholarships I provided references to, were for high-school/post-high school or degree level education in India itself. You are right, there is no mention anywhere of any government scholarships for studies abroad. There are some exchange programs and a few scholarships offered by foreign governments or institutions(refer GOI site in my previous post). There are also job- or skill- related specific training programs for which the government may feel it worthwhile to spend money on sending government employees to foreign countries.

But as you say, ordinary EE or ME `s being sponsored by the government for studies abroad, never heard or seen any smell of such a thing.

Sadhana

My post #266..

I was embarassed to read this statement of mine:

``because 20000 is likely to be called a couple thousand.``.

Please ignore it.

Thanks.

Satyavadi

Jumhuriat, Sadna, Agnostic et al

Juhuriat #261:

`` when Satyavadi says ``hundreds of thousands``, instead of TENS of thousands, I feel that he is being deliberately dishonest.``

hope my subsequent post clarified the matter.

``Tens of thousands`` could be twelve thousand! Not an unreasonable number``

going by common English, tens of thousands would be interpreted as something like 30000 or 40000 atleast. because 20000 is likely to be called a couple thousand.

it is an unreasonable number even if it is 40000 that Agnostic meant, for reasons i enunciated in my previous posts.

to avoid confusion and misinterpretaion, Agnostic could have been more specific with the number say ``15000`` or ``22000`` instead of giving something random like ``tens of thousand`` which could be interpreted as anything (but certainly not ``ten-tweleve`` thousand.

Reasearchers are supposed to talk more in terms of numbers, and not generalities, if there work is to be considered research. there is no room for ambiguity or ``poetic(research-ic)`` liberty and hyperbole, when you are reseraching something.

he could come up with a number of ``8 Muslims`` but no specific number for Hindus, and that surprises me.

``The response is so uncivil that it nauseats one``

Really.. This line of yours, amazes me. Thank you. I can say a lot on this, but unfortunately am running late.

Jumhuriat says:

``And all Satiyavadi has to say is, first

impress us with one of the top five universities bit, with a mayur-like literary prance``

Nice metaphor there, ``mayur like....``..

I put that top 5univ bit, to drive home the point that not even students coming to the top schools, who are supposed to among the better students, know about these supposed scholarships. there is no question of anyone getting them..

and ya, I am proud to be going to one of the top 5univs in the US. i dont care, if it bothers someone.

``I feel Satyavadi is needling the agnostic or Dragon Slayer into answering with rage``

I reread my posts, after i read this statement. and I am yet to understand why you wrote this.

lastly, Agnostic chose not to respond to my querries and inquiries. do you read something there.. maybe you dont, because you probably dont want to.

Sadhana::::

``A person wanting to drive home a point after claiming to have made a study ought to give some references or sources or hard facts which can indeed be subjected to `checks and scrutiny` to

allow us to share the same conclusions based on our own judgement``

Thanks for this comment of yours. I couldnt have said it better myself.

Your posts seem to give the impression that most of the scholarships are need based or go to the minorities. I think there are quite a few purely merit based scholarships too. But I havent heard of one scholarship for studies in the US, specifically- which is what Agnostic is talking about. I am sure there scholarships in this category, but there is hardly any chance that ``tens of thousands`` of students would have gotten them. Why would the govt sponsor someone to study in the US, except if the education is going to be in a very advanced field (like say nuclear or advanced aerospace or sapce sciencce) for which there is no insitiution in India or is not advanced enough.

But the govt sponosoring ordinary Electrical Engineers and Mechanical Engineers, forget it..

What do you say ?

Nobody perceives reality in all its exactness. Everyone is subject to his or her own ``Reality Distortion Field``. However, in the case of Pakistanis on Chowk, in their newspapers or on their government web-site, the gap between perception and reality is enormous.

For example, on the one hand, some writers here do not want Indian ``interference``, yet have little to say about Pakistan`s President`s statement that the issue of Kashmir is vital to the survival of Pakistan. Any discussion of Kashmir must of necessity involve India, even if only as the receiving end of Pakistani munitions.

The post that seems to have sparked the anger so clearly visible in writings on this thread was the story about the Malaysian snub to the CE PM. My theory on that anger is that it was a plausible argument that the govt. of India was refusing to talk to the Musharraf govt. out of simple bloody mindedness. Likewise might apply with the govt. of the US. But Malaysia and Turkey too ??? This dose of reality is too much to swallow, and so up comes the defense against reality -- it is Hindu dhoti-wearing banias` fault.

-arun gupta

These references may provide general information about scholarships, educational institutions etc in India, since it has become relevant all of a sudden.

http://www.education.nic.in/htmlweb/edusta.htm

Numbers in `97-`98

Primary schools: 610763

High schools : 76230

Arts, Science, Commerce colleges: 7199

Engg/Tech Colleges: 458

Medical colleges(allopathy, Ayurvedic) : 769

Polytechnics: 1051

Universities: 229

Higher secondary enrollment: 27.24 million

Information on National scholarships

http://www.education.nic.in/htmlweb/scho.htm#ns1

The majority of these National scholarships are for reduced income or rural students.

Apart from these, there are NCERT`s National Talent Search Scholarships, 750 awarded every year, purely on merit. Each state would have their own scholarship schemes and are meant to favor minorities, not to discriminate against any minority. These are some benefits of combined electorates.

Sadhana

Jumhuriat_ #261

``Agnostic , or Dragon Slayer[?] says that he has spent four and a half years in the research, visited 67 universities and went through [records?] of forty years and arrived at these observations. Obviously, it must have been some kind of a project, open to all kinds of checks and scrutiny.``

I too, have spent all my student life and most of my working life in India and donot know about these Government `scholarships`. As far as I know, scholarships do exist at the state level, but they are very few and are restricted to those in special categories(rural areas, reduced capacity to bear expenses, disadvantaged minority community) and not to the majority community. The main thrust of affirmative action is usually in the form of reserved seats, or relaxed scholastic or age standards at entry level. Till a few years ago, at least, education was almost free in government schools and colleges. In school, we paid Rs 6 for 3 months. In professional college, it was about Rs 500 per half year. At postgraduate level, all students get a stipend.

A person wanting to drive home a point after claiming to have made a study ought to give some references or sources or hard facts which can indeed be subjected to `checks and scrutiny` to allow us to share the same conclusions based on our own judgement. Simple assertions, well...

Sadhana

Jamhuryat:#162

Thank you very very much.I am glad that the messages I have been sending are being read.

We should never allow hindus(Never write Indians--it legitamises their secularism) to make these forays into our private family affairs.We intend to discuss with complete frankness our own problems and if the voice is loud enough that it is being heard across the fence then it is fine.What is not fine is the gawking and unsolicited `helpful hints` by the neighbour who has never accepted title to our property.

The `problem` of easements & encroachments by these tresspassers can only be resolved by ruthless measures & not by setting up scarecrows.

The good part is that at least now they are acknowledging the damage being inflicted upon them.It should be relentless & continue unabated.

After the `Bomb`,have you not noticed that new battlefronts are being opened along cultural(movies,books) & religious lines.Is it not strange that a plethora of `political` movies are the norm?

The yoga-kundlied hindu is treating this gathering on the chowk as an opportunity to get something for free.Their propaganda machine is in high gear.SABOTAGE IT.....and there is no need to REASON with them (you never reason with criminals) RIDICULE them.

Like this:``Keep a cocked hindu eye open and vent your dhotees leaside``.

People, people: Shell or no shell, we Pakistanis have work (thinking) to do. It is ``thinking`` that brought about Zeemax`s ``Ikeesween Sadi Dastoor...`` and SameerJB`s suggestive scenario for restoration of democracy. Recent history of Pakistan, policies on naming buildings, streets and cities, and its ancient history, side by side with the ``oral history`` of more recent vintage. Were they still busy in answering piddling posts from the Indians, they wouldn`t have come up with any thoughtful plans, programs and agendas for Pakistan. As it is, it seems, they have given up Chowk in disgust, as did I. Similarly, bahmad and Assad_K are absent for all intent and purposes. Gnostics, Qanungo-one, Rachna, Sehr, Chief- and Senior Justices, rjanjua, MQ_ Rahat and many, many others are not to be seen either. [Only poor krashid and Frangi_K are sticking out, while Umairr, apparently out of sheer courtesy, is staying here to ward off the evil influences for the rest of the Pakistanis, it seems.] I hope all, or some, of them are doing some thinking and will show up with some ``Think Pieces`` for the rest of us Pakistanis.

The Indians have so miserably discredited themselves that when Satyavadi says ``hundreds of thousands``, instead of TENS of thousands, I feel that he is being deliberately dishonest. ``Tens of thousands`` could be twelve thousand! Not an unreasonable number. The response is so uncivil that it nauseats one.

The Agnostic , or Dragon Slayer[?] says that he has spent four and a half years in the research, visited 67 universities and went through [records?] of forty years and arrived at these observations. Obviously, it must have been some kind of a project, open to all kinds of checks and scrutiny. And all Satiyavadi has to say is, first impress us with one of the top five universities bit, with a mayur-like literary prance, and then trash the poster by insinuating that Dragon Slayer is lying. What gall!!

And yes, I feel that auran doesn`t know the whereabouts of the backside of what he is talking about. I read his first letter but couldn`t make head or tail out of it. Then I realized that the lines had a familiar ping, and realized that I had read them before. In TENS of letters by the Indians.

I hope Allah Subhan o`hu Wa Ta`ala bestowes complete shifa on him. Amen!

I feel Satyavadi is needling the agnostic or Dragon Slayer into answering with rage. Do you see, how these Indians have made us paranoid? As Agnotic says it is not in and of itself a good thing just to do ``noke jhonk`` with each other on the Chowk. I agree with whomever who said, ``be selective``. It seems to me that one is not only known by the company he keeps, but also whith whom one enters into discussion on the Chowk. One has to be selective or else these people will drive you daffy!

The Indians have repeated their ``needling`` so much that even some of them, themselves, seem to have succumbed to the idiocy of it all and left the Chowk. I hope they come back.

Regarding Pres. Rafiq Tarar`s speech, the best I have been able to find is on the Gov. of Pakistan web-site. Tarar is quoted as saying that the Kashmir issue is linked to the survival of Pakistan.

http://www.pak.gov.pk/public/news/app/app24_Mar.htm

Pakistan fully capable to thwart foreign aggression: Tarar

ISLAMABAD, Mar 24 (APP): Reiterating Islamabad’s unequivocal support for Kashmiri’s freedom movement, President Muhammad Rafiq Tarar Thursday said Pakistan’s valiant armed forces were fully capable to give telling response to any aggression. “Kargil is a glittering example of an unprecedented victory and everlasting sacrifices. God willing, in future, too the valiant and brave jawans (youth) of our armed forces would continue to inflict telling blows on the enemy,” he said in his address at Pakistan Day parade. “The armed forces have always played vital role in the defence and development of their beloved motherland,” Tarar said and recalled that Pakistan army, on several occasions, had effectively defended the motherland against much larger and stronger enemy.” Such bravery, he said,”is very rare in the history.”

Tarar said Pakistan wanted peaceful settlement of Kashmir issue as it,”is an issue linked to the survival of Pakistan.” He said innocent Kashmiri people have been victim of repression and oppression for the past half a century. He said the Kashmiri nation was determined to unfetter the chains of slavery and was rendering valuable sacrifices for their noble cause. “We will continue to extend moral, diplomatic and political support to Kashmiri people in their just struggle.”

He expressed the hope that international community would not act as silent spectator over the shameful reign of terror unleashed against Kashmiri people and,”would try to realize the promises made to Kashmiri people through the United Nations by the entire world community.” He said Pakistan believed in peace and did not intend to engage in any arms race. “But we are fully capable to give telling response to any aggression.”

Tarar said the development in the field of modern science had brought the world population very close. “The world would turn into a global village in 21st century. It would have been impossible for an individual, a society or a country to achieve progress in isolation.” “For this reason, we have to remain very vigilant while entering into next century.” Tarar said,”we have to equip our armed forces with the modern professional techniques while maintaining good and cooperative relations with other nations. “Rest assure that despite limited resources, we would not hesitate from any sacrifice to meet our defence requirements.” The President congratulated the organizers of Pakistan Day Parade for arranging an excellent show.

He said the Muslims of sub-continent had demanded a separate homeland for themselves some 60 years ago. He said freedom-loving Muslims of the sub-continent turned this dream into a reality

under the great leadership of Quaid-e-Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah in a short span of seven years.

He said the freedom struggle was interspersed with numerous problems and difficulties. He said anti-Pakistan elements were expecting that the country would not last for long. “But with the Grace of Almighty Allah, Pakistan is not only safe and sound but it is being recognized as world’s seven and Islamic world’s first nuclear power.” He paid glowing tributes to Pakistan’s armed forces for their gallantry and bravery. “Your spirit and resolve have been unyielding. The entire nation is proud of you bravery and courage.” He said the armed forces have extended full cooperation to improve the performance of several national institutions. “I am sure that with the Grace of Almighty Allah, the armed forces through their firm determination and professional skills would continue to defend the country and play their role in the national development and prosperity.”

mithuna #257: Very nicely stated. I agree with everything you said. Each side looks at the other with distrust. There is ample reason for the two sides not to trust each other, also. I think this distrust will take a long time to defuse. Any solution that occurs will have to be initiated in this atmosphere of distrust. That is why I think neither side should give up any opportunity to talk to the other. Even when two countries are at war, their diplomats usually talk to each other.

I am very interested in reading Tarar`s complete speech. Someone pointed out that they had read it in DAWN. I haven`t been able to find it. It is impossible to tell what he was indicating without reading the whole speech. I do know that the person whose comments count right now is Musharraf. Tarar has always been a symbol. And Musharraf has basically stated everyday that he is willing to talk to India anytime, and at any place. During the Kargil incidence, the Indian stance was understandable. However, that is over. And Pakistan is now offering talks, even though India is still in Siachen. I doubt India would have offered talks to Pakistan when Pakistan was in Kargil.

Regarding the Muslims in India, as I stated earlier, apart from a few vocal voices, people in Pakistan don`t care one way or the other. If a Pakistani politician thinks he/she can milk some points with some community, he/she might make a statement about the Muslims in India. But the average Pakistani (average being the key word) doesn`t feel good or bad about the Muslims in India. There is really no reason to feel either way. If people are living somewhere according to their own free will and are happy, then their religion doesn`t really make any difference. If the Muslims in India themselves started making statements that they were being suppressed in India, then the average Pakistani might care. But the Muslims in India seem quite content, so why should the average Pakistani worry. Issues like Babri Masjid do get a lot of attention, because they deal with the Islamic religion as a whole, and are thus above local Indian politics.

Your views about baby steps are quite correct. Pakistan is currently in a weak economic position vis-a-vis (traditionally it has been in a stronger economic position, per capita than India), so it might seem to the Indians that they do not need to solve the Kashmir problem. However, in the long run, I am convinced that it is in the Indian, Pakistani, and Kashmiri interest to give the valley of Kashmir some sort of self-determination.

The only point is whether India is willing to recognize the fact that Kashmiris deserve self-determination. If India accepts this in principle, then there are many possible solutions. If India does not agree to this in principle, then I doubt there will ever be a solution; unless the Kashmiris all of a sudden completely change their minds and vote in favor of India, or unless they are completely annihilated. Neither one of which seems like it is going to occur.

Re my post #255:

Please replace ``hundereds of thousands`` with ``tens of thousands``. I just realized the error.

Though the number of Hindu students getting scholarship as stated by Agnostic is in tens of thousands (not hundreds of thousands, as I mistakenly quoted), I think its still ridiculously high. It implies that betwee 30% to 50% of the Indian (Hindu students) coming to US, got govt scholarship.

Incredible, I know 100 odd Indian students in the US, and NONE of them got any govt schorlarships, even while most of them are from great institutions including the IITs and many were among the toppers in their respective

institutions.

Even more incredible is the fact, that I as a student who came before only less than two years, am unaware of such a scholarship and so are all those 100 odd people( which according to Agnostic has been granted to ``tens of thousands of Hindu students`` and ``8 muslim students`` in the past several years).

Looks like the govt has been really secretive about this one. Only ``researchers`` like Agnostic know about this(these) scholarships, students like me, who are supposed to be the benificiaries, are painfully unaware of them.

Agnostic would do well to post the name of that scholarship on Chowk, so that I could pass on that info to my friends in India who are in the process of coming to the US for studies.

Thanks.

Satyavadi

Regarding Umairr (#246) :

I will first point out two news stories before making my point.



#1 : Hindustan Times reported Tarar`s comments about Kashmir being necessary for Pakistan`s survival.

http://www2.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/240300/detFOR05.htm



#2 : You wrote:

{{Apart from a few vocal people in Pakistan, an overwhelming majority are not concerned about the Muslims in India, one way or the other. }}

Please read the article on Business Recorder (of Monday Apr 3rd, 2000)which begins as ``Ambassador Munir Akram, Pakistan`s Permanent Representative to the UN on Sunday expressed serious concern over future of Muslim minority in India.``

http://www.brecorder.com/story/S0000/S0000/S0000107.htm

I am not commenting on whether the future of the muslim minority in india begs concern or not... merely pointing out that high ranking voices in the Pakistani administration are among the ``few vocal people`` that are raising the issue at forums.



A reality in the Indo-Pak relations is that the people in one nation look out for the worst comments/interpretation-of-comments coming from the other side and treat those as ``their real plan``. (This phenomenon has been nicely pointed out with examples in Sisson and Rose`s book on the 1971 war.) In fact, after 1971 (from the Pakistani perspective) and Kargil (from the Indian perspective), one may argue that it is indeed a wise thing to do.

That is the reason why Tarar`s statement creates a stronger impression on Indians than Inam-ul-Haq`s. This is also the reason why Advani`s comments about ``hot-pursuit`` or ``geo-strategic realities`` is treated by Pakistanis as the real Indian plan rather than Vajpayee`s visit to Minar-e-Pakistan(?).

That is why I think there is no solution short of a long and cumbersome process beginning with baby steps such as resolution of Sir Creek, Siachen and other CBMs related to non-aggression on the LOC. I do not believe there are any short-cuts.

Mithuna Thottethodi

Umair #246

``The only area in India that Pakistanis care about is the situation in Kashmir. And in my opinion, they have a very valid concern.``

Why umair, why do they have a valid concern? Only because Kashmiris are muslims? I asked this question earlier, should we be equally concerned and provide arms to your minorities? Should Iranis be concerned about their co-religionists in Pakistan and provide them armed support? Should we support Baluchs and Sindhis?

You ask

`` Do you live in Kashmir, or are you affiliated with Kashmir in any sense? If you are, then I think your views regarding the Kashmiris may represent the views some groups in Kashmir also. If you are not a Kashmiri yourself, then most people will tend to give the views of the Kashmiri leaders, who are actually speaking for the Kashmiris, and are at the other end of oppression, more importance than your views. Since they are the ones who are being directly effected by the violence there. ``

If this is the criteria, perhaps all Pakistanis (may be, except you, you claim to be half kashmiri) on this board should keep mum.

Now ask me, yes I am affiliated with Kashmir. I have been closely associated with Kashmir. I have visited common people on Kashmir (and Jammu and Ladath) in their homes, mosques, temples and monasteries.

Try to read this with an open mind. You say that government in Kashmir is not representative. But, is answer to that killing of innocents? Democracy is not improved by militancy. We had corrupt non reprensentative governments in several states of India. People were able to change the goernments through elections. If one election was sham, Kashmiri problem could easily have been solved through subsequent elections. Problem was with the system. However, Pakistan used the situation to provide material help to militancy.

What has been the result? Hindustan Machine Tools ``HMT`` had a large setup in Srinagar. Their General Manager, a Kashmiri, Khera, was kidnapped and his headless body was found in 1980s. (Don`t tell me that India wanted to start the militancy and RAW did this? I do believe that you are saner than that). Teachers of Srinagar engineering & medical colleges were kidnapped and murdered. As a result majority of educated professionals, doctors and engineers, non-muslims as well as muslims migrated out of valley. This resulted in further reduction in improvement chances for Kashmiris. Militancy never is and will never be answer to economic issues. We have learnt that from the results of Maoists and Naxalite movements. Such movements just resulted in flight of money, resouces and educated people from troubled areas.

IMHO, solution to Kashmir issue lies in asking all militants groups to sleep for 10 years. As Bahmed and few other very aptly wrote on this board, soldiers never like to kill. Indian Army soldiers will certainly like nothing more than to get a chance to sleep peacefully in their barracks. A peace in Kashmir will allow business and tourism to flourish, people to return to their homeland and than elect whoever they feel are their representatives.

Agnostic #251:

``I found only eight Indian Muslims who were beneficiaries of the Government`s scholarships or exchange programs as opposed to tens of thousands of Hindus with a negligible sprinkling of Sikhs``

Hard to imagine a more factually incorrect statement.

You think the people here are naive enough to believe ``tens of thousands of Hindus `` from India came to the US with GOVT scholarship or patronage.

I am grad student in one of the top 5 univs in engg in the US (most Indian students come for Engg) and I donot know a single person in my univ or any other university who has come with a govt scholarship. Wonder why I didnt even that the govt of India was giving scholarships to ``hundreds of thousands`` of Indian (Hindu if you will) students for studies in the US.

The govt could be sponsoring very select students in a few important fields, and the number is so small- I assume, that not even IIT toppers vie for those ``scholarships``. I know a couple IIT toppers and lots of other good IITians and none of them ever mentioned this scholarship. Had the govt been handing out doles to hundreds of thousands of Hindus, these two toppers(both Hindus) would have been the first to be awarded those scholarships.

Most Indian students come with aid from the University or get money for one sem from their Dads, after which they manage something or the other from the university like a TA or RA.

You came across ``8 Muslim students`` in 40 years as against ``hundreds of thousands of hindus`` and

in a couple years I know atleast 10 Indian Muslims students as against maybe 80-90 Hindu, Jain, Christian and Sikh students- all going to good universities.

You should have been surely looking thru glasses which probably had ``Indian Muslim filter`` on them, or else you would not have come up with this ridiculous number of ``8 Indian Muslims`` against ``hundreds of thousands of Hindus``.

I think only a few hundred thousand Indian students have come to the US for studies in the past40 years. Are u implying every Hindu out of that group came on a govt scholarship ?

Do your research better, before you post something again. Indians, here will call your bluff, if you post outright lies, bordering on absurdity. And Indians, wont care whether you are a Paki or and Indian or a Somalian, because a preposterous statement, is exactly that, no matter the nationality of the person, who states it.

Satyavadi

``Dragon Slayer says

Umairr#246

Please re-read Auran`s letters. He is a non-Muslim. Don`t waste time on him.``

Certainly it will be good decision for dragon slayers, agnostics and umairs to go back into their shells.

I posted this on the wrong forum. Hope Chowk posts this here, where it belongs.

Agnostic #224:

Read your reply. You write from your heart- no doubt about that.You are indignant that Indians

are pre-ocuupied in pointing out Pakistan`s inadequacies, rather than talk anything meaningful.

Well, I as an Indian, would like to address (or try to) some of your grievances.

First of all: What do you expect from evil cunning HINDU BANIAS. Never mind that only 85% of the Indian population is Hindu and only 5-7% of Hindus are probably banias. But well, for Pakis we are all Banias.

Dont your columnists even in respected Dawn beware

you of the teachery of Hindu banias. Some make a special appeal to Paki youngsters to listen to them about Hindu perfidy, because they(older columnists) have first hand experience with Hindus -lest the new generation be conned by the uncivilized Hindus. Remember, Hindus follow the ``Chanakya`` and how they sided with the British while the Muslims were all busy fighting the foreigners.

So you shouldnot have been surprised. Seems like you donot read Paki newspapers and/or you didnot attend your history classes. I now more about Hindu treachery than you do, having read Dawn

for only slightly more than a year now.

You said:

``We have gober /technology/ with a three thousand years of civilization backing it and //the West wants to borrow the Indian technology// of gober gas``.

Well, good to know that you appreciate our gober technology. But I propose small corrections. We have a civilization going bacn 5000 not 3000 years.

As for the gober technology, well what you said is true. But we make use of the ``Gaay Maata``(mother cows) that we have in India. Didnt one of your esteemed compatriots mention, how me feed

ourself with the dung (gober) and drink cow urine because it ``holy``. I wonder when the Americans are going to imitate us in this. How about pakistan taking the lead for once ?

You said:::

``Can you imagine the lowering of the threat by liquefying and canning the gases of one billion bean and daal eating beings!India`s shining, and well-lighted potential in the field of natural gas

is at hand. The technology may not have an international market but that is beside the point. Any lengthy discussion is just so much wasted hot air! The winds of development are in the air, as it were!!]``

I am impressed. For a change there is Paki showing some leadership and creativity in something other then Jehad.

You said:

``But he(friend) has come back with his cow-urine drenched pen to tell umair``

Wow. Another use for our dear ``Gaay Maata``. But how about Cow-dung- will that be useful for anything other than gober gas ? Keep them coming, we will be obliged.

You said:

``They (Indians)have exported terrorism in Pakistan for the last twenty five years``

I never knew RAW was so inept before 25 years. Shame on Indian intelligence agencies. Pakistan has existed for more than 25 years, and you dont export terrorism for 25 long years. Makes me

bury my head in shame.

As aside on this one: Why is that you guys come up with the exact same allegations that India accuses Pakistan of, only a day after India does so. Why cant you be a bit more original than this ? We all know, you are all pious souls, but there is no other way of dealing with us treacherous Hindus. Pre-empt us, for us, so that the world gives some credence to your justified allegations.

You said:

``So, a full `Division` of them jumpedin, with both feet, in these boards of the Chowk [upto yesterday 119 posts were by the Indians and 93 by Pakistanis on this board give or take a couple.

Go figure!].``

Thanks for the researched figure.I dont think there is a full division of us here. Its only that some of us very prolific, when it comes to

Paki bashing- me not included.

You said:

``any sources myself, and money, if I hire a secretarial assistant). Still, whenever I come, I see posts from Indians saying, `` your prophet married a young ... .``, ``why did you...?`` and ``youdon`t have this, you don`t have that``, and that ``that`` includes intelligence to money to morals to shame. ``

Well I would agree, that some of us do tend to be just a bit more self righteous than we should.

But I would also argue, that at least Indians (in most cases) never bring religion in a discussion, except as a retaliatory measure, in response to some hateful blabbering by a Paki Muslim. And even

then it is defensive. The reason being plain simple, Indian is not equivalent of Hindu. If we are going to belittle a religion, we are going to hurt a significant portion of us, which is specially true in case of Islam, and we cant afford to do that.



End Note: Interaction between the peoples of Pakistan and India is NECESSARY (though not sufficient) for moving towards a better

understanding of each other. Chowk is one forum, where such a discussion is possible in a largely civil way, among some of the more priviliged and consequently more influential sections of both

countries. So it must be encouraged and not discouraged, as you would probably want. If some one is talking crap, ignore him/her.

But if you are going to talk about kashmir, be prepared to talk about bangladesh, baluchistan etc. If you wanna talk about discrimination against Muslims in India, you should we willing to

talk also about the separate electorate system in Pakistan . you cannot have a discussion in isolation. Every time some twit on your side is going to abuse Hinduism then be prepared to hear a swipe at Islam from some hot headed Indian Hindu too.

You said:

``if an Indian responds to it. I would choose my own respondents. Thank you.``

Well, likely that you will ignore this response of mine. But anyways, thank you.

Satyavadi

aurangzeb #227 & 245

You do not seem to know the Muslims in India. If you /are, indeed,/ a Muslim then you are an alienated individual and/or part of the minute politically successful families or business elite (minority) in urban center(s). Or, alternatively, are not a Muslim anyway since your posts indicate only the very general acquaintance with Islamic shibboleths.

No, aurangzeb, you have no idea of the Muslim minority in India. I could expand on this but I feel it to be an unnecessay exercise particularly since I suspect your assumed ``identity`` as a Muslim to begin with, on the Chowk.

Should you like to continue a discussion then please come up with some /facts/ and figures. To begin with, correct your figure of Muslim population in India. I am aware of Hiduism as a Muslim. I did my school at the K.G. Hindu High School. (Locate it on the Net). I knew more Sanskrit Mantras, better Hindi, more knowledge of Hindu mythology, both religious and non-religious, than my Hidu classmates.

I should be very pleased to have discussion with you provided I see a reasonable ``smidgeon`` of rational logic rather than the stock Indian line that it is necessary for the safety and welfare of Indian Muslims, and it belies the Two-nation theory etc., etc. That is not acceptable unless you show logically the argument to be at least half-way decent outside of the Indian perroration.

In my analysis of 40 years of history of Indian university students in the U.S. and Canada, I found only eight Indian Muslims who were beneficiaries of the Government`s scholarships or exchange programs as opposed to tens of thousands of Hindus with a negligible sprinkling of Sikhs. Further, either three fourths of Hindus are Brahmins in India, or they get preference in such a way that over 3/4ths of Hindu students were Brahmins. I visited 67 universities over a period of four and an half years.

I will grant you one thing though: Indian Muslims are not only hostile towards Pakistani Muslim Students but are also most adamently defensive of India offering the same arguments that I see now on the Chowk by Indians. I have experienced that as a Graduate student, as a teacher and as a community member.

N.B. I am NOT a Pakistani.

#238

The whole political scenario in India is all about trying to move towards a more equitable society. The debate began 2-3 millennium ago and still continues. Again, read ``India: A Million Mutinies Now.`` VS Naipaul for a snapshot from the early 1990`s.

Also, http://www.the-hindu.com/2000/03/30/stories/01300007.htm

#244

Methane and studies: really good GK on your part. I guess the West is greatly on the defensive about its own horrendously wasteful and harmful petrol guzzling `way of life` and their high energy consumption economy whose indicators are closely tied to how many cars are sold per year and how many auto-workers are out of job. Such a system will do all it takes to sustain itself, what of sponsoring some studies.

Well, its good karma for me to be the involuntary instrument of assistance to anyone in anything even newsgathering.

http://www.the-hindu.com/stories/01020007.htm

``...At a press conference here this morning, Mr.Ecevit said Turkey was ``not happy`` with the military rule in Pakistan and called for an early restoration of democracy there. Asked about his decision not to stop over in Islamabad while coming here, Mr. Ecevit said his objective was ``to give a new impetus to relations with India`` and did not want to mix it up with a visit to Pakistan.

Referring to the new winds of democracy in the Islamic world, Mr. Ecevit said, Turkey has demonstrated that ``Islam and democracy are compatible`` and this should be ``an example for the rest of the Islamic nations.``...``

Sadhana

Agnostic #: 244

Yaar tum to sadme se paagal ho gaye! Good you are in Pakistan. They must have enough experience in treating you. They have lot of patients like you.

BTW, first commandant of Pakistan Military Academy was a ``khansaman``. Is it only becasue he is not a muslim? May I quote you please?

Loveingly yours

PS: Offcourse you can ignore to reply. You have right to choose the respondants.

krashid#: 239

I knew that they don`t teach world history in Pakistan. Now I concluce that they don`t teach local Pakistani history also in your schools.

`` Although as usual, and as expected from an Indian, you are trying to divert issues regarding rights of Sindhi, Baluch, Pathan and Punjabi, Mohajir etc.

I can assure you that Muhajir are one of the most priviledged in Pakistan.``

}} Very well, Rashid, I must also tell you that J&K was one of the most pampered state in India.

``There are issues in every country, like Dalits, Muslims and Christians in India or State wide conflicts in India. But does it lead to a massive support of common man, to the point that almost half of Indian army is in Kashmir to Suppress the will of Kashmiris.``

}} Again you are in a denial phase. After Kargil, you refused to take back dead bodies of your soldiers fearing that it will expose your involvement. Are you really so much brainwashed that you can`t see the reality. Azhar & two other terrorist were from and still are in Pakistan. You still say that struggle is lead by local people.

``Situation in Kashmir is a situation of independence movement and no Kashmiri in his right mind would opt for India.``

Who gives to right to talk for Kasmiri people? Why don`t you let those Baluchis talk whom you killed in thousands in 1970s. But certainly you were never told that by your government.

Did you ask people of Baltistan if they want to be part of Pakistan? They were originally part of J&K.

Did you let people of that part of Kasmir decide their future that was gifted to China by Pakistan? Certainly you were not even told about that by your government.

``Don`t divert the issue, and don`t lament.

Before lamenting on us lament your own people .... Resolve those things, before opening your mouth against our rights.``

}} This is precisely I am telling you. To keep your own house is place, because it will collapse anytime while you are busy adding fuel to fire in Kashmir.

Agnostic #244,

You should be happy that at least on chowk there is some form of interaction between pakistanis and indians, at least not of the bloody type. Internationaly at a political level, after seeing the type of welcome rolled out to Clinton, no one would want to visit pakistan for a long time. Not many would want the pak soldiers disarmed so that they wont kill the visitor. Turkish prime minister is in India, and wont be making a return visit to pakistan. You poor CE is now troling SE asia with his message of peace through jihad.

At least on the chowk, there is a whole range of interactions, profound to the profane. I agree many pakistanis are used to different types of interactions, they every day look forward to the dawn front page of the days work of jihadic pakistanis in kashmir. Till the technology progresses to produce exploding e-mails, many pakistanis will remain disatisfied with chowk.

Regards

jay.

aurangzed #245: Could you point me to the URL of Tarar`s speech, or print it here. I would be interesting in reading it.

Apart from a few vocal people in Pakistan, an overwhelming majority are not concerned about the Muslims in India, one way or the other. Individual Pakistanis have too many day to day problems of their own to solve, much less worry about the problems of Muslims in India (who willingly want to be in India). Every now and then, when they hear about things like Babri Masjid, they speak up, but apart from that they don`t really care. And they should not care. If the Muslims in India are quite happy, as you indicate, then that is good.

I don`t think Pakistan has ever indicated that it wants to be a spokesperson for Muslims living in India. There are Muslims living in every single country of the world, I doubt Pakistanis are too worried about any of them; apart from the ones who are actually being killed due to violence.

The only area in India that Pakistanis care about is the situation in Kashmir. And in my opinion, they have a very valid concern. Do you live in Kashmir, or are you affiliated with Kashmir in any sense? If you are, then I think your views regarding the Kashmiris may represent the views some groups in Kashmir also. If you are not a Kashmiri yourself, then most people will tend to give the views of the Kashmiri leaders, who are actually speaking for the Kashmiris, and are at the other end of oppression, more importance than your views. Since they are the ones who are being directly effected by the violence there.

To ali1:

The reason we dont react (presuming u are a pakistani) is that what is the point in doing so - unlike most muslims ( I would like to leave out our brothers from Indonesia area, and africa (black)- we dont mix politics with our faith unless there is a reason for doing so - Yes Chechnya, Israel and Bosnia are reasons for Jihad and I salute the brave mujahideen who go there but not Kashmir - its purely political intentions that drive it. I dont need to tell you about the status of Islam in India (I know how you guys hate to admit it) the over 400,000 mosques and quite easily the largest repository of Islamic knowledge ( you see we teach our children about the virtues of Islam and the ways of the Prophet(pbuh) and do not indoctrinate to kill those ``beastly Hindus`` - u may not be surprised to know that my best friends from school are all hindus - yes we do face apathy from the government who provide only electoral sops and nothing for our upliftment but the problem is also the suffering caused due to the creation of Pakistan (for your info it was not just Jinnah and Co. involved but also the likes of Sardar Patel, RSS etc. who dearly wanted to get rid of Muslim majority regions to have complete Raj over India) - though only 10% of Muslims left and became Mohajirs - they were the cream of the crop as can be seen from the biographies of all top Pakistani intellectuals when they pass away - we were left rudderless but not for long - watch out for the new generation of which I am a member - our love for our motherland is so deep that all fellow Indians know it - tell me of an Indian muslim you find abroad who has willingly come there if not for the economic need or discrimination he might have faced - I have full faith in Allah that he will solve these problems - and the way is true Hindu-Muslim unity - the Prophets message was one of peace and tolerance and thats why we love our land - thats why I have no problem in accepting my heritage - the Mahabharat and Ramayana dont hold an iota of religious value for me but just as the western greeks love their Homer`s Illiad and are proud so am I of my land`s rich past (the cradle of which u know is in the Indus valley). People who are dismissive of their identity and dont want to recognize it are the most unfortunate in the worldly life for what is their self confidence and source for motivation - I am a Muslim and know the tribe and nation into which I was born (refer Quran 49:13) - thats why when Pakistanis say their economic status is better than ours - I am not going to mention the likes of Azim Premji but tell that our mental piece is far greater than yours. So dont try to further deepen our hardship as else alas if we rise - then even your bluff on this Hindu-Muslim angle to Kashmir will also evaporate - I know you want revenge for 1971 at all cost. For us Kashmir is dear as it represent the only state in the land where Muslims are in a majority - a sense of belonging and a refutation of the two-nation theory which our grandfather`s adamantly refused (for which I am proud of them) - so no way is Pakistan going to get an inch of Kashmir - you can keep what we call Pok as there is no point in getting people who have been brainwashed to hate their very roots. Wasalaam

Oh to umairr please check the address of your President Mr. Rafiq Tarar during your Republic day parade ( I got it from the most respectable DAWN)

#220 & 223

Umairr: You are (of late) an officer and a gentleman. Please do not be so kind as to indicate that you have not understood the goal and intention of the Indians on these boards of the Chowk:

They show up and, as a certain ``Jay`` among them himself said, do something like, //provoke them, ask an inciting and inflaming question (e.g., How about Sindh?) that will keep all the Pakistanis busy in clarifying// the Sindh situation. Then, another joker shows up, while the Pakistanis are still clarifying the Sindh situation, and asks , ``well, how about the Taliban?, or Balochistan, or the `coup`, or, the international debt``. The Pakistanis either all take on both or all the issues and start writing the clarificatory posts. Some of the n`rm dil Pakistanis start apologizing for being Pakistanis, when a third Indian shows up and says ``so, who do you Pakistanis think you are?`` We have gober /technology/ with a three thousand years of civilization backing it and //the West wants to borrow the Indian technology// of gober gas``. Independent sources indicate that both gober and gober gas have reached the state of New Jersey!

[Well now, ignorance tera hi aasraa! The idea was North American and many ``Swineries`` in the United States and Canada have been heating their premises with the swine gober since 1959! They are being dropped now since the expense in equivalent ``human hours`` is many times more, in collection and production activity, than the use of alternative sources e.g. natural gas from below the earth. If we must be dependent on methane and related gases then India, of course, is a very rich country. Think about it. I remember that a few years ago, even though it was ridiculed by Johnny Carson, the threat to the ozone layer by the gases released by the cattle was looked upon as a real threat to the ozone layer of the earth.

Can you imagine the lowering of the threat by liquefying and canning the gases of one billion bean and daal eating beings! India`s shining, and well-lighted potential in the field of natural gas is at hand. The technology may not have an international market but that is beside the point. Any lengthy discussion is just so much wasted hot air! The winds of development are in the air, as it were!!]

``friend``(?), I thought that after a thorough drubbing in arguments, on another board, he had disappeared. But he has come back with his cow-urine drenched pen to tell umairr about what that khansaman of the ``barra khana`` wrote.

Hey freund, produces and parades this khansaman-cook here not because he is a Christian and, //therefore, assumed neutral (neutral for whom?)// but because he is a chitta sahib. Had he been a kala (non-white) Christian the `` non- vy-u-lence`` guys would have slaughtered him long time ago, not reproduced his pronouncements here, particularly if this non-white Christian also happened to be a khansaman-cook.

Now, umairr, do you see these Indians involving you in the same game that they have played with Pakistan. They have exported terrorism in Pakistan for the last twenty five years, still continue to do, and all this while they cry bloody murder against Pakistan, internationally, to keep Pakistan busy in denials of manufactured reports by Indians who never let the Pakistanis have time to present their own positive case.

The Indians on these boards, too, have played the same trick with you and the rest of the Pakistanis. Rather than letting the Pakistanis solve their own problems through their own mutual discussions, they have kept everybody busy in `defending` Pakistan.

The Indians learned long time ago that the Pakistanis, even among themselves, are really independent in their thinking. They differed most violently with each other on the question of the `coup` and then after discussion, most of them started talking of middle ground i.e., understanding of each other`s position, which to the Indians meant the danger of something positive emerging out of their discussions; an anathema. So, a full `Division` of them jumped in, with both feet, in these boards of the Chowk [upto yesterday 119 posts were by the Indians and 93 by Pakistanis on this board give or take a couple. Go figure!].

They started asking questions shrew-like and with the style of ``wey toon; abbey teri; aur tera; tey toon; arrey, hai hai, meri bhii sunnoun; aur meri bhi ! The result, of course, has been an abhorent absence of meaningful discussion ``among`` the Pakistanis!! A clear but abominable and horrendous achievement for the Indians of their goal.

I think Pakistanis are much too polite for their own good; or, at the very least, most of them are most of the time. And these Indians hamaari aankhon main ghusse challe aatey hain. Why the ell could Pakistanis not continue talking only, or mostly, to each other? Indians should have been ignored. After a while the sh`r p`snd Indians would have left. Any Indian with constructive ideas, arguments, and suggestions should have been most cordially welcomed to participate in the discussion. Don`t just be bloody polite; be politely selective.

I have quit coming regularly to the Chowk (I only come to see the abstracted, edited, selected news reproduced here by mohajir, sadhana and others. Saves me time to do the synopsis of news from so many sources myself, and money, if I hire a secretarial assistant). Still, whenever I come, I see posts from Indians saying, `` your prophet married a young ... .``, ``why did you...?`` and ``you don`t have this, you don`t have that``, and that ``that`` includes intelligence to money to morals to shame. To which the Pakistanis` answer should have been non-response; to some the answer should have been, à la ``Taxi Driver``, /Are you talking to me?/, /You talking to me?/, and bang, a devastating post and then ignoring, non-response. Do you know that there is nothing more agonizing to bullies than a non-response to their actions? Watch me give these bullies their just desserts.

So, my dear friend, Umairr, although I know you are not naive [an oxymoron of sorts since naiveté is part of the definition of being a `gentleman], still, if you honestly believe that this ``you this`` and ``you that`` kind of discussion keeps Indians and Pakistanis discussing with each other and is a ``positive`` thing, then you do, indeed, exhibit an extreme element of naiveté. It is not a necessary condition (as opposed to the ``sufficient``) that discussion with Indians on the Chowk take place for ``understanding`` and resolution of bi-national problems.

Ravian One

March 30, 2000

N.B. I would not like a Pakistani to respond on my behalf, for this post, if an Indian responds to it. I would choose my own respondents. Thank you.

Reply #: 240 krashid

``....General Pervez Musharraf has backing of whole nation behinnd him.``

krashid,

Apathy isn`t acceptance.<