Life on Earth: Chance or Deliberate

It took a lot of my time to read through all of the replies to the article.One thing which is not very hard to notice is that how easily one gets carried away when it comes to comparision between religion and science.

I am a physician myself,so I am a part of the scientific community.I feel as if I am watching a game,and hence can appreciate who is overlooking what.

I have been to both extremes(religion and atheisim).I think one does not need to be a part of a specific religion in order to perceive the logic.There are many issues where science and religion begin to speak the same language but we fail to connect them for whatever reason.

In order for me to point to one such issue I will have to begin with a question .

Question. Is God a Scientist ?

Answer. I dont think so.Otherwise we would be

receiving revelations in scientific

language where He would point out to you that he created the universe from Atom and you or life from DNA.

Are you not confused now when you are told that you or the universe were created out of nothing.

I think the scientist have especially had hard time understanding that because DNA or Atom were not mentioned.But then why was it so hard to make a connection.Can you see DNA or Atom.What you cannot see, does it exist? Every one who is from the 20th century knows that DNA and Atom even though we cannot see either exist and are actually the basic unit of life and the universe respectively.Even in 21st century we cannot see either .We can only perceive the presence but still cannot see them even with the most powerfull of the equipment.Our experimental outcomes tell us that it is so but our eyes still cannot image it.

It took thousands of years to define that ``NOTHING`` into ATOM and DNA.So in my mind I know that if I were to be in that place where no

knowledge can exist as pointed out by archangle to Mohd(pbuh)on his journey(mirage),I would most certainly put forward the concept of ``NOTHING``.To me the basic unit of the universe is truly ``Nothing``.

So far the religions which subscribe to the theory of creation from nothing have been correct. The science has proven so but failed to understand it in the metaphysical language.

would love to continue.

temporal:#115

Please do not avoid the real subject:the public humilty you are getting for acting as the --- in the manger.

If you consider this place for socialising but others have a more important purpose.

I cannot help you expiate your guilt about your itch to deconstruct someone`s creative efforts.Your kind(tweed coats with shoulder patches grammar types like Mr.Chips are in Retirement or Nursing homes;not useful anymore with their `grammar`.English is no longer the language of the British).



wassalaam AND Allah Hafiz

F--Kush #110:

You are still in denial. And you continue to delude yourself and others by misleading. I will not pursue this for now.

You have been made aware that what is written in this public medium can be picked up and thrown back at the writer’s face to expose the double-speak.

So please exercise care.

fi amanullah

t

In reply to #104 (anarayan)

I would like to point out that the big-bang does`nt explain the origin of the universe - but merely the reason for the shape it is in today. One can always ask what was there before the big-bang. And unless `Time` is redefined, this becomes an everlasting question.

Comment : It is possible that there was no ``before`` the big bang. The definitive answer awaits a successful grand unified theory.

Science provides a description of nature in terms of a (hopefully few) concepts. Whenever the description is successful, one can ask ``why``, e.g., why is the sky blue ? (explained in terms of the properties of light). But one can ask ``Why are there photons ?`` and those why`s cannot be answered. Really, science never really answers ``why``, it answers ``how``. ``How does it come about that the sky is blue ?`` ``How does it come about that the sky shines in a uniform 3K radiation ?``

Regarding :

If anybody is interested, I can provide the ancient Indian cosmogical view of the universe which has astounded the likes of Carl Sagan (see volume 10, COSMOS from your local library).

I have been tempted myself to provide a quote of a translation of one of the Pauranic stories about cosmology.

* * * *

Somebody else asked about how is it that the Almighty made such a miserable world ?

One answer which was told to me this weekend had two elements to the answer. Briefly :

1. We have free will (and so bear responsibility).

2. In the eyes of God, death is not a terrible thing. Only we mortals are terrified of it.

-arun gupta

PM:

Human my friend human.We are all human.

We make promises--then break them,but we also remind each other that it is not good to do so.(I do not know the Rationality for it,I just accept it as part of Human behaviour).

We are also capable of remorse.Many times we realise that we did not even know why we were doing something.(Scientists are us)---I do not try to blow my brain-fuses to find Rationality in it.(I just accept it as part of human behaviour)

I am also capable of infringing on violation of certain tenets of my professed beliefs AND at the same time insisting that others be absolutely virtuous.(I just accept it as part of Human behaviour).

This,my acceptance of the fact,that a lot of things are given and I have no say in them nor it is my role to alter them,can also be called submission to the WILL of Allah.I intend to do that simply because I profit by it(If one has to really be convinced by rationality).It saves a lot of bytes on my hard disc,which I always try to use for better pursuits.

This complete surrender to the will of Allah is also called Islam.

May Allah give me the courage to hold on ever more steadfastly to it.



wassalaam

re. Anarayan (#104)

Thanks for the reference to Sagan`s work. I never cease to be amazed at the astounding relevance of the ancient wisdom of the Eastern traditions of Hinduism, Taoism and Zen, to Modern Physics -- a subject covered at length in Fritjof Capra`s ``The Tao of Physics``. Indeed, this is compelling evidence that there are more ways to knowledge than science - or (Western) Religion, for that matter - limit us to.

Farangi_Kush: Is Anarayan`s ``great civilization`` the same ``cow dung-eating, urine-drinking, caste-ridden, wife-buring low-life`` excuse for a religion you sometimes refer to? ...Just wanted to be sure. Oh, and it`s mighty convenient of you to use inclusive talk (``our civilization``) when it suits your agenda, isn`t it! Let`s not kid ourselves, the Farangi missionary schools in India introduced a science curriculum the foundations of which were laid, inter alia, by the

great Muslim scientists of the Dark and Midlle Ages. Athiesm was never tolerated, let alone taught.

And don`t delude yourself into thinking that the ancient Eastern (NOT Middle Eastern) religious modes of knowledge-attainment has anything in common with Islamic or Christian scriptural `revelation` or `history`. If anything, there were akin to sufism and mysticism, which have always been looked upon as somwwaht heretical by their main streams.

Farangi_Kush:

re. ``PM:A little emotionalism does no harm. I am glad you a capable of it too.``

F_K, I don`t think the validity of emotionalism was ever up for debate, just the degree to which it should govern our opinions and actions. You seem to reject one form of extremism (`Farangi` rationalism) only to whole-heartedly espouse it`s opposite. In your world, man is indeed nothing but a savage beast capable of `atuhtentically` being informed only by his instincts and passions. Bravo!

That may be your prerogative. But if you have any sense of objective morality at all, you should recognize (INTUIT!) that one cannot-- to cite but one example amongst many-- extoll music, poetry and passion and then end a post with the kalma. Or are you not familiar with the hadith that discourages music for it`s propensity to arouse the irrational passions?

Now relax-- I`ve brought the Prophet into this not to ridicule him (I happen to agree whole-heartedly here with his assessment, (and- before him- Plato`s)), but to point out the untenablity of your positions. If this `hit` you on a purely intuitive, or even emotional level, so much the better!

If you should choose to reject this as just another case of rabid rationality at work, well, there is nothing else I have to say, except, good luck to you as you drag mankind back to the jungle with you. (or try to, anyway)

regards,

PM

temporal:

Please understand that the person concerned has himself apologised to me.Moreover,none of the cullings you have produced were in response to any of your interacts.In fact I have not inter-acted with you except two or three times and none of them were on the boards mentioned by you.

Those who were involved are perhaps quite capable of responding or choosing not to respond.Did anybody ask you to take upon this role or is it just your habit of giving unsolicited opinion,critique and fancying yourself of knowing some english.Now I have started wondering whether you can even read it.

Go back to the dung-urine board.Even hindus do not have the courage to deny these facts.So that is NOT bad language.The whole idea was to let lot of our naive,simple minded Pakistani MUSLIMS(the proud kind,practising kind) to beware of the Indian propaganda machinery working overtime on chowk).You yourself should pay attention to this,because you & your kind are the most vulnerable ones(I remember you gloating about marching `fundos` and finishing them off in your typical asinine fantasies which manage to find room in your tiny brain).

If you do not have something worthwhile to contribute on the important subject on this present board then please go elsewhere and continue your kaffee-klatch of `discussions` with your inter-act socialites.

I intend to ignore you because you are just feeling miserable after getting admonished by at least two recently for being the unsolicited reviewer & critic & ``grammarian``.

Relax! you will be ok in a few days.

wassalaam.

Apologies re. the previous post to Zeemax. Wrong board.

t

Zeemax #107:

If you manage to occupy that jump seat on the A-310 you are invited to the pow-wow in August. Accomodation provided. BYOS.

rgds

t

F--Kush #103:

You sounded hurt. Truth is known to cause this. It is a measure of one’s humility and greatness that they ignore the hurt or pain and reflect upon the truth.

Instead you retort in defiance. This knee jerk reaction is not needed. You should have been reflective if not remorseful.

My observations were in quotes. Yours were not.

Forget the world wide web, even here at the Chowk, all comments are in the public domain. There are other single issue or single agenda interacters here and any regular visitor can spot them . And subjectively, however ingratiating or misplaced their comments maybe they are at the least ‘consistent’.

By talking from both sides of your mouth your are neither consistent nor effective. And you compound it by pontificating, belabouring, sermonising, and scolding. Surely, you must be aware of the excrement (dung by another name?) that spews forth occasionally from your keyboard

This is a free world, where you have the freedom to insert foreign objects in other people’s orifices. Only you should spare us the mock surprise, indignation, pain and hurt when others repay you in kind, with interest, pardon the pun.

Yes, language and its proper usage has been a long held interest. Let me put your concerns to rest. No, I do not or critique interactions: only published pieces. At the same time I will encourage you and others to ‘proof-read’ your submissions before hitting the enter key.

AND NOW TO SPECIFICS

My most basic assertion was “One must avoid talking from both sides of the mouth.”

In support, I presented a random sampling of eleven quotes from different boards spread over several days. Let me assure you, I could have done a more ‘scientific’ study and gone back to Chowk archives and picked up one board for each of the past twelve months, and culled the quotes from there with identical results. And no I am not an “ umpire,arbitrator,or reviewer ,and a self-appointed guardian of grammar.”--- just a minor Chowk poet.

You have deliberately misled others when you say, “....may I remind you to read my post on THAT (my Caps) board where I explained the reason for such stance was taken by me and then It WAS AGREED(my Caps again) that the purpose of that was served and the chapter closed.Everyone abided by that.” Your quotes were not from one board. They were a random sampling.

Who agreed? What process was applied? Chapter closed? Who decides? How is it done? Of course, pardon my ignorance of such matters. The legendary F–Kush, initiates discussions, moderates and guides it, and closes it. Right?

Further you declare, “......No thanks I do not want to know your comments or #s of those anymore.They are now stale & therefore cannot be refreshing.” First a careful re-read of my post #102 is in order. I did not volunteer or offer in any way shape or form to comments on your quotes. I merely offered to provide the post numbers. And what is this about your quotes being stale and not refreshing any more? Is that your way of disowning them? Or are you shrugging them off because you have changed your views? Or have they outlived their usefulness?

If you continue this sophistic approach of double talking --- of double standards, your fallacies will continuously offer a source of amusement and occasionally invite comments from detractors. One cannot type in “THE END” and wish these things away.

Please apply your talent in a consistent, meaningful and positive way . This approach will enrich us all.

fi amanullah,


temporal

anarayan:#104

Please do enlighten us with such `ancient` knowledge.Is it not a curse upon us that we become aware of them only after becoming farangi-robots.

I believe such knowledge be acquired by those from the grand civilisations alongwith the `modern` one.That is why a great emphasis be place upon learning of scriptures & languages other than english.

The farangi tried to snatch us away from our cultural & religious ancestory and led us to believe that we are orphan.We are all discovering now that our culture & religion is alive albeit emaciated by these thugs.

Laanat bur Ba Ba Blacksheep & missionary schools(read:farangi madressas).



Here is a gem for all to admire but it is especially for the attention of Omarphoenix.

(Author`s name witheld but will be given after a few inter-acts.Hint:Lived during last millenium)

Low in the earth

I lived in the realms of ore and stone;

And then I smiled in many tinted flowers;

Then roving with the wild and wandering hours,

O`er earth and air and ocean`s zone,

In a new birth,

I dived and flew,

And crept and ran,

And all the secret of my essence drew

Within a form that brought all to view--

And lo,a man!

And then my goal

Beyond the clouds,beyond the sky,

In realms where none may change or die--

In angel form;and then away

Beyond the bounds of night and day,

And Life and Death,unseen or seen

Where all that is hath ever been,

A one and whole.



PM:A little emotionalism does no harm.I am glad you a capable of it too.Now please do not ruin it by giving me reasons for it.

This yearning of the flute for the reed will continue.We do not know why,but we can all concur that it is there--it is a fact.Some of us do this yearning in a lab,some in the panoramas and some in the never ending bewilderment and always asking WHY? but yearn we do and that it all most of us `commoners` are gnostics of.

SR:

Bhoar suhanee chanchal balak

Larkaee dikhlaay,

Haath sey baitha gharhay khilonay,

Paoon sey thorath Jaey

Voh tho hai ik chanchal balak

thoo tho naheen nadaan

aap banaay aap bighaaray

yeh naheen theree shaan.

Aisa kyun,Phir aisa kyun.

(if anyone wants explanation of this I`ll be happy to give it)



wassalaam

SR (#99)

``I couldn`t ever understand how The Benevolent and Merciful Almighty could have created a world so full of cruelty, injustice and misery? How could He have allowed the abominations of this world in His Omnipotence, let pass in His Omniscience that men should become worst than beasts, worse than all that crawls and creeps, and that the breath He blew in Adam`s nostrils should become the stench of the dragons. This I could never understand.. Thank you for clearing it up for me.``

No, no, no. I have indeed led you into darkness. May my soul be forever damned for this unforgiveable transgression.

With consummate humility, may I suggest that, since being shown the light by post #101, I have indeed found a way to accept inherent contradictions like the one above, as well as evolionsim vs. creationsim. You see, I have seen the incredible utility of that device referred to as PARADOX by Farangi-Kush. I now feel I have attained Nirvana - no more questions, no more doubts, no need to search painstakingly for objective truth (that will only further `confuse` you)-- JUST ACCEPT PARADOX!

Oye, temporal, I should hope you see the futility of your exercise in post #102. You see, my friend, there are some things you will never know, never be able to see, as long as you try to be `reason`able. There is indeed no hypocrisy, or self-contradiction in the quotes you reproduce of our friend-- just PARADOX. And that is perfectly acceptable!

regards from a AN INTRACTABLE RATIONALIST (Don`t be confused-- this is also a PARADOX, you see),

PM

FARANGI_KUSH, macgupta, SR and others,

I would like to point out that the big-bang does`nt explain the origin of the universe - but merely the reason for the shape it is in today. One can always ask what was there before the big-bang. And unless `Time` is redefined, this becomes an everlasting question.

If anybody is interested, I can provide the ancient Indian cosmogical view of the universe which has astounded the likes of Carl Sagan (see volume 10, COSMOS from your local library).

-AN

temporal:#102

You really go to great lengths to act as an umpire,arbitrator,or reviewer ,and a self-appointed guardian of grammar.

In this scribes case----Please refrain,unless specifically requested to do so.This kind of admonishment was served upon you by someone else too just last week.I am not aware of any previous ones--if any.

Still,to close this subject,may I remind you to read my post on that board where I explained the reason for such stance was taken by me and then It was agreed that the purpose of that was served and the chapter closed.Everyone abided by that.Now out of the wood works you appear and again try to act as Chowkidar,when nobody really appointed you to this post(!).Well,some creatures are known to do that on their own,I hope you are not one of them.Please shed off this self-donned mantle of a grammar watch-...!

Thanks for letting me know about my refreshing viewpoints now.No thanks I do not want to know your comments or #s of those anymore.They are now stale & therefore cannot be refreshing.

I hope this would draw a final curtain to the argument which was really related to another board.



THE END



wassalaam.

Mr. F-Kush:

Peace:

Recently you wrote “When somebody starts attacking me personally and resort to calling names & abusive words.........I`ll not educate him.” If you look at the mast of Chowk, the motto is “At Chowk all are welcome to read, write, and think.” Teaching is not part of the quotient.

In an ideal world all should act responsibly. Obviously, this is not the case most of the time. Therefore, we should find ways to constantly remind ourselves to act responsibly. The average Chowk reader is far more intelligent than perhaps given credit for.

One must avoid talking from both sides of the mouth. It helps everyone if one is consistent. (And grammatical -- me pet peeve.)

Below are some recent sprinklings of your thoughts, re-presented here in a sincere effort so that we may all learn from such sparkling gems. I hope you will not mind this, and ponder over the image one would get of you from your posts. I am sure deep down you are a decent person. Is this how you would want to jolt the readers? Perhaps with your callousness (“---- Sometimes a little ruthless visage is presented to bring sense into the buffoon`s brains.”) you maybe losing any goodwill that you might have acquired with your refreshingly different perception on some issues. (Reference numbers of these interacts will be gladly supplied if you so desire.)

----- “You should also specialise in jantries & kundlees.A brand of diet-cowurine as a national drink & cowdung burgers could bring you revenues & lift you out of your chamaar existence in the comity of nations.You wouldn`t be reading this if you were not sadistic enough to be itching for muslim company.”

-----``PS:Fellow Pakistanis.Since in Pakistan we do not really want to know what hinduism is please understand at least this:(this shuts up a lot of hindus in secularist skin)They eat cow-dung & drink cow/bull urine.”

-----``Please keep a cocked hindu eye open....& vent the dhotees leeside.``

----- “Rehan:a good piece but garishly marred by the profanity.I wish you had not used it on this forum.We must stay different/decent;THAT should be our hallmark.Everything farangi is not good!!!”

----- “Since when has it become your business to know about our plans for bengalee muslims.Maybe they are an asset for us being where they are. (when someone chided you about the plight of stranded BIHARI Muslims in Bangladesh.)”

----- “And please do not call the true hindu practitioners as those from the bush---some of them might be reading this.I can trust them more than a socialist/secularist anytime.”

----- “As I said before:Hindus must learn to behave in the generous company of Pakistani Muslims.They should be grateful for being given this privilege.”

----- “Religion should always be the whip to keep the scientist in line(A Galileo never happened under Islamic Shariah!!)” (And later you compound it by saying..)

----- “I never said to whip scientists in the literal sense. All I meant was that the scientists need to be shepherded,or reined by religious scholars. “ (and then followed by this leap in logic..)

----- “Mullahs or anybody like those with Dr.titles,Congressmen,Lawyers,or intellectual-types are equally competent or incompetent.”


With statements like above it is little wonder you would invite comments like:

-----``Regarding #186 and other myriad blabbering posts by F_K:: And I thought despite his silly name, F_K was an intelligent but closeminded obscurantist of the Taliban school. Never knew, he was such a demented bigot. He started off a reasoned contrarian but seems like will end up as schizophrenic, prevaricating, and hateful maniac. Maybe age is taking its toll in high speed. Or may I am bad judge of personalities.``

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

It is only befitting that I end this litany of quotes with another from you---”Ya Allah!Please forgive me if I erred by either over-simplifying the matter or tried to be pedantic & `scholarly` about it.”

Yours in peace,

temporal