Life on Earth: Chance or Deliberate

Is it all the doing of a sectarian Allah who divides human beings, his creation, into muslims and kafirs and sends them to hell and heaven? Science is the never ending search for truth. It is based on rational thinking as opposed to the irrational blind faith. Allah is also developing with the time. Once he was the god of the Jews only, a `Semitic Illah`, the he became Christian and finally an Arabic-cum-Muslim Allah. He is now replacing the secular `Khuda` in Pakistan because perhaps Ghalib had protested against the latter:

``Kia woh namrood ki khudaai thi
bandgi mein mera bhalla nah hua``

Omar Phoenix, you are one ``confused scientist``. Read world renouned journals like Scientist, Nature and Discover etc and you will know how science works.

There will always be people like you who will say that the earth is flat, no matter what science says. Unfortunately no one can help you except yourself.

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urstruly reply#129

I do not think that religion and science are being superimposed. Religion has been the ancient science.Science is the most recent offshoot of religion.If you look at the history of religion you will see the hypothesis developing over a time period.Not one religion started overnight ,it took a lot of thought process to develop a system.Now these hypothesis were based on observation before they became believes.During the initial times when man was formulating laws of societies practice,obsevation and outcome were analyised and laws were altered appropriately.And what makes you think science is not authoritative,try to do something against the laws of science and you will fail badly.Science only recently started looking at the question of creation where as religion has been talking about it for more than 10,000 years.If your sight is clear than you will see as to why the outcomes have been different.If I were to place you 10,000 yrs back you no matter how hard you think will come up with answers similar to ancient people.In this scenrio you will appreciate that you had to think within the shadow of your observation.

You will also appreciate this observation ,that not all the listeners accepted the hypothesis immediately ,it only became acceptible with time.The same is true of this most recent approach of the thought process of man.300yrs ago galalio was labelled heretic when he said earth is not the center of the universe and it is round and not flat.Aristotle was aware that the different shapes of the moon were because of the earths shadow but he was not thinking in that direction even though earth has been round since its birth then why galalio discovered it and not arstotle or ptolemies,because they never thought of it.Their thoughts were relavant to their time and ours are relavant to ours.Galalio was made to change his views in order to save him from being BBQed.

The major difference between religion and science is that religion is Metaphysics and science is Physics.And who says that metaphysics is not related to physics.

Physical issuses like Gravity,Life,Death,Evolution,Birth,Age,Disease etc were all metaphysical issues which with time entered the domain of physics.This proves that the thought process always begins as metaphysics and then enter physics.

So you see they are not ``superimosition`` but mere dependents.

I have deep trouble with ``superimposing`` religious images on to the

scientific ones. Unfortunately, all of the religions including allegedly

true ones, are dogmatic in nature. They pivot around a set of beleifs.

Whereas the knowldge of science is based fundamentally on our five senses

and all those devices that enhance these senses.

The real dilema is that religions are dogmatic in their nature on one hand

and reality as conceived by scientific knowledge is based on your

perception.

Where the ``hell`` do we go?

Any comments????

SR reply#123

``If God created the universe,then He must be All Powerful.So there is Absolutely nothing which is beyond His power,Right?

Okay,then does this all powerful God have the power to create something which he is incapable of destroying?

sorry,you did not request an answer but this question is too tempting. I have got to say in order to get it out.

The answer is that ``He already has``.

Do you remember the Quranic verses where Allah in response to challenges offered by the unbelievers to mohd(pbuh)as to why not He bring forth the destruction He warns them of,the response was that He has the power to do it but He will not do it.

He most certainly is capable of doing it but most certainly not willing to do it.Why Not.Every thing which has been created comes with an inherent self detruct mechanism according to the laws of this universe.Infact destruction follows creation otherwise laws wont work.That means whosoever is the creater is Himself very tightly bounded by the laws set forth to create.These laws dictate that if this is to happen then the capability should be restricted by the unwillingness.Imagine if only in response to those challenges He were to touch nothing in the universe but only gravity which no body could see

those challengers would have flied out into the universe but He did`nt and why not He could have easily done.I think the answer is that since He Himself is bounded by the laws of His own creation that changing only one costant would disrupt the whole thing.Imagine if He would have

done it then we all would not be here.

Here the incapability has been masked by the unwillingness because each law depend on the relavance of the other and to touch one means starting a chain reaction.

The verse continues by telling them to wait,for it is going to happen in time as He promised.Who else then the creater be more aware of the inherent nature of His own creation.He really does not have to do the dirty job of destroying every thing as it is bound to happen according to the laws which He Himself cannot break.

Qadeer:#124 to 126

Your posts were a very valuable addition upon this `eternal` topic.I learned a few things from them.

I do not understand what you mean when you say that you have been a religious person yourself.In my book any person with an enquiring mind who does not abandon the base,unless firmly sure what lies across, is definitely a religious person.In fact he continues to be a religious person at the other end.The characteristic comes with the territory.In urdu poetry this is called ``Ghum``(sorrow of not finding the Beloved).

The creation explanation as reported in the Quraan is definitely not an ``innovation``.It existed even before the other scriptures. it.You have thus actually reinforced the `Truth` rather than trivialising it.I thank you for that and re-state this so that those on teeter-totters may not lose balance.

Omarpheonix is a shining star of our younger generation.He has the rare blend of a seeker of knowledge and the fiery rage of the accomplisher.I wish him well in life and may he continue to seek guidance & advice from people like you.

``Ishque hai ummul kitaab,aql hai ibnul kitab``

A L L A MA IQBAL.

Zeal(passion) creates books,intellectualism is merely an offspring of such books.

(There is a world of a difference to be behind a steering wheel and that of reading the odometer ensconsed in the passengers` seat).



Esp. for OMARPHOENIX.

Be thou not be sad O sweet bird

Be thou not lose hope in your heart

Be not be sad sweet bird,be not be sad.

Look! the breezy quench-laden clouds are here

& they have brought a message for you

Make an effort,push hard,& fly away with the bird-cage.

And rush to the home of the beloved.

[``how to `carry` the cage``?]

Rise & set the cage on fire,reduce it to ashes and burn your wings alongwith it

The ashes like a tornado will then swiftly transport you to where you truly belong.

O sweet bird sad you be not.

A geet sung by K.L.Saigal

(translation: mine)

Phoenix is QUQNAS in urdu.The bird that rises from the ashes.

(it is not extinct,if interested I can tell you by what name it is known today)



get more muslims on Chowk



wassalaam.

Omarphenix I cant recall the reply # in which you expressed your frustration that why not they come out and say it outright that Allah or God created the universe with the BigBang......etc.

I dont think that it is right to prescribe the idea of BigBang as ``The Explanation`` as to how the universe must have been born.

Stephin Hawkings who popularised the theory of BigBang is now coming out with another theory in which there is no requirement of God. This new theory is the concept of ``Imaginary Time``.This concept is plotted vertically along the horizontal axis of actual time and space which removes the initial point from the funnel shaped time ,space cone very effectively and leads to conclude that it just was there ,as there is no starting point in a circle similarly according to ``Imaginary Time `` concept there is no starting point of the universe.

There is also a very valid argument against the Big Bang theory ,that it never happened.Because there are galaxies in the universe which are so huge that the time required to expand from one point of the galaxy to the other is so much that these galaxies are appearing older than Big Bang.

Now how can a universe have many galaxies older than its own age.

So you see there are many reasons that we should hold ourselves .What Allah or God means He only knows ,but if we were to break that code then we have to be patient.

Somebody also put up an argument that humans have broken the code of creation by clonning sheep and mammoth.I really dont think that it is true.Taking the parts of toyota corolla and putting them together does not mean that you can manufacture it but yes you can assemble it.Similar is the situation here,man has been unable to manufacture DNA or ATOM to come up with their own product ,they can take an existing product and use it to assemble a new product .

I would consider that the code has been broken when man could come up with a creation which has not existed before in the universe,be it a molecule of Atom or a molecule of DNA.

SR #81&123

``Logic cannot be applied to the concept of God``

SR I think that logic here is not being applied to the ``concept of God`` but to the workabouts of His Creation. I agree with you in the above quoted sentence.You here speak like a true muslim, as the biography of ib-n-ishaq tells us when Mohd(pbuh) assended for Mirage they came to a point where archangle would not go ,upon questioning he replied that there is no Knowledge beyond it and since he was Knowledgable(capable of being known) therefore was not allowed beyond that point.This story which was told by Mohd (pbuh) to his followers is exactly saying what you are saying.It clearly says that He is unknowable but his creation upto that point where the unknowable begins is all knowable.And I think that logic is the only key to arrive at that knowledge.

omarphoenix reply #86

Omar your article was a pleasure reading.I am a scientist myself and have been a religious man before.This combination makes you wonder whether you want to or not.

I want to comment on one of your paragraph from your reply #86.You believe in the divinity of Quran and not in Bible or Torah because the man changed them.

Many folks say that but my mind gets mixed up here.I agree that Quran says that too but I am not sure whether that counts to all of both texts.

Well the theory of creation first appeared in Torah and Quran backs it up.According to scholars of Torah that it was written by men under inspiration.I disagree with that too because this same theory of creation first appeared in Asyrian methology.Asyrians who enslaved jews after the first diaspora.Interestingly the theory appears after the diaspora and not before it.Torah also tells story of Moses,Moses himself did not compile the story it was latter written by these inspired men.Moses himself was an Egyptian who took asyrian theory of creation and not the egyptian version which was completely different.Qurans stance on history is almost the same as in Torah and Bible.Most of these were written by ordinary men and not the prophets.So if the Quran is agreeing on the historical facts written by ordinary men then they must be divine also.The story of Noah and Moses are similar to the stories of Utnapishtum and sargon the great from the babylonian (asyrian text recovered from asurbanipals library in iraq early last century)text.

I want to say more but I think this should give you an idea what should be the boundries of divine text.

arun gupta #97

``Observe that in Bucaille`s book there is not a single prediction of any physical fact which is unknown up to now,but which could be tested against observation and experimentation in the future``

Arun are you talking about his book or are referring to Quran as his book has done so.

re: shankar #118

addressing `Frangi Kus`

[``... you revealed your true colors. The more you open your mouth, the more evident it is how hopelessly frustrated, alienated ,narrow minded & ignorant you are.

You live in farangi land & hate everything about them. You eat their food ,drink their water & deposit your dung on their land (both from your mouth & the other end). Do the world a favor & return to your kind...``]

Amen !! You speak for many. The likes of Mr. Kus, (or should we get informal and just call him Farangi?) are always quick to bite the hand that feeds them. Very often such people are simply frustrated because of their personal failures in life. I don`t know if our Mr. Kus lives in farangi lands or has returned because he couldn`t `make it` in the west. And now its just a manifestation of his `sour grapes` syndrome that we have to suffer through with his ignorant rubbish. The best response to his kind is silence. I don`t read his postings past the point where he starts being a bigot. Unfortunately, 90 percent of the time he writes something that puts me off and I simply skip to the next posting.

re: qadeer sahib,

If God created the Universe, then He must be ALL Powerful. So there is ABSOLUTELY nothing which is BEYOND His Power, Right?

Okay, then does this All Powerful God have the power to create something which he is incapable of destroying?

(Please, no need to reply, this is a rhetorical question. Just for fun. The point being that logic cannot be applied to the concept of God as detailed in one of my earlier postings.)

...SR

Shankar You are right.

But let me point out, the flaw in your argument.

First most of deaths occured in WW1 and WW2, which were not fought on the basis of religion.

2nd although, you are right that wars are fought in the name of religion.

But it is only a use of religion to gather people under one flag. The real reason is either domination of other group or resistance to other group.

There is no such thing as universal, it is the economic domination which plays a role.

America which has been built up on slavery is now condemning child labor.

Child labor although not justified in a poor nation like us is an extra hand for the person sending his child for work, rather than rot on street. Until and unless the whole nation is guaranteed a universal education and universal feeding (more important then education)and universal job what is the use of applying a criteria which is good for Industrialized nation.

The same can be said regarding things needing technology and safety.

Although unsafe products cannot be justified, but small nations cannot compete in resources and research and will be left behind to be out of race. So it is a recipe for subjugation. So on and so on.

And finally related to your point. If the subjugation of third world is complete, then all wars and coersion will be done not in the name of religion but some supposedly high ideals and in other instances naked barbarism without justification. i.e might is right.

shankar

thanks for responding

I respect your understandings and believes and I am ashamed on my brother FK`s remarks also.I thank my God for whoever I am and whatever time I will get on the face of this earth no matter how short it will be.I am also thankful to Him for this differance for it makes my conscience(rooh or spirit) grow.We should thank the other for being different not penalize him.

qadeer

{{Farangi kush thinks that he is in the right path, shankar thinks that he is}}

Please do not misunderstand me. My response was only to FK`s insulting remarks. He came to the distorted conclusion that since hindus didnt challenge his crap, his conclusions were right.

If you want my opinion on God & religion, here are my 2 cents. The core philosophy of every religion is identical. However, our human nature is such that we have taken something as sacred as religion & used it to hate our fellow human being. Human beings have hated, killed, raped & looted in the name of religion more than any other cause in the world.

I havent figured out who I`m more disillusioned with--human nature or religion. Sometimes I feel that the human race would be much better off if it abandoned all religions & just believed in God without a religious denomination.

Farangi kush thinks that he is in the right path, shankar thinks that he is ,well every body who have contributed to this discussion think the same ,that he or she is holding the right path.For Gods sake stop this game and tell me the truth now ,which one of you is telling the truth.It appears that all of you were born into what ever your believes are.Not one of you chose that path,then if this is so then tell me what is that you did that without asking you ,God or any Creater you believe in,gave you the slot to the right path by giving you birth within a certain belief.And what wrong the other did that he or she was thrown in a wrong slot,Obviously any person in their right mind would not choose the wrong path if the choice was given.

So in other words all of you are defending your inheritance and not the truth.

Farangi kush you appear most certain of them all

if you were born Hindu you would have sounded as certain as you do now.

Please I dont want to know about what you all inherited.Get out of this and start thinking right. If there truly is a God you should ask Him that why He gave you the righteous path and forsake the other fellow.

Farangi Kush

You said

{{Go back to the dung-urine board.Even hindus do not have the courage to deny these facts.So that is NOT bad language.The whole idea was to let lot of our naive,simple minded Pakistani MUSLIMS(the proud kind,practising kind) to beware of the Indian propaganda machinery working overtime on chowk).}}

The reason that hindus like me did not respond to your above filth was not ``courage`` but a deep sense of disappointment. I thought you were somebody I could respect even though I did`nt agree with your views. Alas, you revealed your true colors. The more you open your mouth, the more evident it is how hopelessly frustrated, alienated ,narrow minded & ignorant you are.

You live in farangi land & hate everything about them. You eat their food ,drink their water & deposit your dung on their land (both from your mouth & the other end). Do the world a favor & return to your kind in Pakistan. I take that back, go to your taleban friends in Afganistan. Even many Pakistani posters are`nt buying your crap.