The Real Face of Saudia Arabia
Sadia Saulat April 2, 2000
#101 Posted by RV on May 10, 2000 1:27:29 pm
Sadia,
If you think Saudi Arab is an awful place for sisters to be in then you ain`t seen nothin yet...there are worse possibilities: Read on what goes on in the land of pure whose citizens are working tirelessly for the human rights of Kashmiris, Chechens, Bosnians, Phillipinos, etc. etc. (except for the people of their own country)
In Pakistan, Women Pay The Price of `Honor`
By Pamela Constable
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday , May 8, 2000 ; A01
GUJAR KHAN, Pakistan –– Zahida Perveen`s head is shrouded in a white cotton veil, which she self-consciously tightens
every few moments. But when she reaches down to pick up her baby daughter, the veil falls away to reveal the face of one
of Pakistan`s most horrific social ills, broadly known as ``honor`` crimes.
Perveen`s eyes are empty sockets of unseeing flesh, her earlobes have been sliced off, and her nose is a gaping, reddened
stump of bone. Sixteen months ago, her husband, in a fit of rage over her alleged affair with a brother-in-law, bound her
hands and feet and slashed her with a razor and knife. She was three months` pregnant at the time.
``He came home from the mosque and accused me of having a bad character,`` the tiny, 32-year-old woman murmured as
she awaited a court hearing last month. ``I told him it was not true, but he didn`t believe me. He caught me and tied me up,
and then he started cutting my face. He never said a word except, `This is your last night.` ``
Perveen`s disfigurement is extreme, but her case is standard in its basic elements. Thousands of Pakistani women and girls
are stabbed, burned or maimed every year by husbands, fathers or brothers who believe they have brought them dishonor
by being unfaithful, seeking a divorce, eloping with a boyfriend or refusing to marry a man chosen by the family.
If a victim dies, the crime becomes an ``honor killing,`` a term that has come to symbolize the cruel irony of a conservative
Islamic society that purports to shelter women, yet often condones savage violence against them in the name of male and
family honor.
The problem of honor killings in Pakistan, while far from new or unique, has aroused international attention since April,
when Samia Sarwar, 29, was shot dead in the law office of a leading human rights activist. It turned out that her parents had
ordered the killing because she had shamed the family by seeking a divorce.
In the past, elected Pakistani leaders have resisted taking action against honor killings, but last month military ruler Gen.
Pervez Musharraf launched a national human rights campaign, singling out honor killings for special denunciation.
Government officials said they are hoping to reduce Pakistan`s isolation abroad as well as increase domestic awareness of
the issue.
``The government of Pakistan vigorously condemns the practice of so-called honor killings,`` Musharraf declared. ``Such acts
do not find a place in our religion or law. Killing in the name of honor is murder, and it will be treated as such.``
Such crimes occur in countries across the world and among societies of all faiths; a jealous husband in the United States
may be driven to the same act of rage as one in Pakistan or Portugal. But such attacks tend to be taken more seriously by
authorities in developed countries, where women are more educated about their rights.
Moreover, because the concepts of male honor and female subservience are deeply ingrained in Islamic and Asian tribal
cultures, honor crimes including killing have occurred for years in Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt and other Muslim countries,
including Pakistan, without provoking widespread outcry.
``The concept of honor killing does not exist in Islamic law, but conservative tradition is very strong in our culture. Islam
gives rights to women, but society snuffs them out,`` said Nayyar Shebana, a lawyer with the Aurat Foundation, a women`s
advocacy group in Islamabad, the Pakistani capital.
Only sketchy statistics are available on honor crimes, but the independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan reported
that in 1998 and 1999, more than 850 women were killed by their husbands, brothers, fathers or other relatives in Punjab,
Pakistan`s most populous province. In many of those cases, the commission said, the woman was suspected of what was
considered immoral behavior.
Another common form of domestic violence against Pakistani women is burning. In 1998 and 1999, the commission
reported more than 560 cases of women burned at home in Punjab. In 1998, nearly half the victims died. Many cases were
suspicious, but there were only a handful of arrests. The Progressive Women`s Association, which assists attack victims,
tracked 3,560 women who were hospitalized after being attacked at home with fire, gasoline or acid between 1994 and
1999.
``We deal with these cases every day, but I have seen very few convictions,`` said Nahida Mahbooba Elahi, a lawyer and
women`s rights activist who represents honor crime victims. ``The men say the wife didn`t obey their orders, or was having
relations with someone else. The police often say it is a domestic matter and refuse to pursue the case. Some judges even
justify it and do not consider it murder.``
Since the outcry over Samia Sarwar`s killing, dozens of other cases have come to light, largely as a result of pressure and
publicity by women`s groups. In recent interviews, victims or their families described the following incidents of extreme
domestic violence:
* Perveen Aktar, 37, was severely burned in September when her husband, a fruit peddler in Rawalpindi, threw acid on
her. According to Aktar, whose face, chest and back are badly scarred, her husband wanted to return to his first wife, and
she refused. She said she went to the police, but that her husband paid them a series of bribes and they did not investigate.
He has since fled to another city.
* Zarina, 40, fled her home in Kashmir after her 20-year-old stepson shot her younger sister dead; the girl had wanted to
marry a boyfriend whom the stepson did not like. Zarina said her husband sided with his son, beat her and threatened to kill
their 2-year-old daughter when Zarina asked for a divorce. Zarina and her daughter are now in hiding in a private women`s
shelter.
* Kousar Perveen, a 32-year-old mother of four from Talagang, about 100 miles south of Islamabad, was allegedly beaten
and burned to death by her in-laws in February. According to her parents and sisters, the in-laws had forbidden her to leave
their house, even to visit her ailing parents or attend a cousin`s wedding, and she had quarreled bitterly with them.
``They killed my daughter. God help me,`` sobbed Manzour Hussain, 75, his limbs shaking violently with palsy as two
neighbors carried him to a protest organized by the Progressive Women`s Association at the Talagang courthouse in April.
The in-laws reportedly claimed she had been burned in a kitchen fire, but Hussain`s family said she had been tied up and
murdered. Two people are under arrest, but no trial date has been set.
According to lawyers and women`s rights advocates, many such cases are never brought to trial. They say police are easily
bribed or persuaded by the men`s families to dismiss the complaints as ``domestic accidents.`` Many victims, especially
uneducated women confined to their husband`s homes, are too intimidated to press charges. Moreover, under another
Islamic legal concept called qisas and diyat, a blood relative of a victim can formally ``forgive`` a crime in exchange for
payment, with specific sums prescribed for damage to each body part.
Police officials say that many domestic crimes are never brought to their attention, that the complaints are often without merit
and that they prefer to settle minor ones informally. But they insist that they pursue all violent crimes and murder charges
with equal vigor, no matter what the motive.
``We want to punish the man who has done this, and the authorities are committed to doing all we can to help,`` said
Ikramullah Niazi, a police magistrate in Talagang who reassured Kousar Perveen`s relatives outside the courthouse. ``But it is
difficult to collect evidence, and whether he is acquitted or convicted is a matter for the judiciary. There is only so much we
can do.``
Women`s rights advocates have praised Musharraf for his strong statement condemning honor killings, but they note it has
not been accompanied by any moves to bolster investigations or prosecutions. They also predict that such crimes will occur
with impunity as long as the laws that enshrine men`s superiority over women remain unchanged and as long as the popular
belief persists that a woman`s sexual sins must be avenged.
``Sections of society continued to regard any expression of independence by women as an infamy, and the only way to
restore the family`s honor was to promptly put an end to the life of the transgressor,`` the Human Rights Commission said last
year. The subordination of women was so ``routine,`` the group noted, that domestic violence was widely considered
``normal`` behavior--even by the victims themselves.
Zahida Perveen`s husband, a 40-year-old barber named Mahmoud Iqbal, does not deny that he carved up her face with his
razor on the night of Dec. 28, 1998. His defense is based on the Islamic legal concept of ghairat, or uncontrollable actions in
the face of extreme provocation--in this case, suspicion that his wife was being unfaithful. He took no action against the
brother-in-law with whom she was thought to be involved.
``I did these things, but I was going out of my senses,`` said the stocky bearded man, shackled to a policeman with thick iron
chains, as he stood on a balcony outside the Gujar Khan courtroom, about 20 miles from Rawalpindi, awaiting an evidence
hearing in the case. ``She was provoking me and ruining my life. What I did was wrong, but I am satisfied. I did it for my
honor and prestige.``
As Iqbal was taken to a police van after the hearing, several male relatives and acquaintances approached and shook his
manacled hand. Later, when journalists showed his wife`s photographs to a group of middle-class men in Islamabad, several
of them commented that she ``must have deserved it`` and that her husband ``did what a man has to do.``
Although Pakistani law does not condone murder in the name of honor, it does contain strict Islamic ordinances enacted in
1979 that prescribe harsh punishment for the crime of zina, which means committing adultery or having premarital sex.
Under these ordinances, men and women can be stoned to death or publicly whipped 100 times for committing zina, but
such charges are brought almost exclusively against women. Harsh penalties are rarely imposed, largely because it is very
difficult to prove that the alleged sexual acts have occurred. But women`s advocates say the law intimidates women,
prevents them from demanding their rights and encourages men to abuse them with impunity.
``Usually the women are eventually acquitted, but they may spend several years in jail meanwhile,`` said Shebana, the
women`s advocacy lawyer. ``Their families are happy to have them in prison, because they have disgraced the family by
eloping and they must be made to suffer for it.``
In Pakistani society, women who are accused of zina, or who seek divorce and are not living with their parents, are often
ordered to remain in jail or in locked government shelters while their case is pending. In theory, these shelters are intended
to protect unattached women, but in practice they also seek to protect society from them and to ensure they do not engage
in sex.
There are currently 28 women confined to the shelter in Rawalpindi. The doors and windows to their rooms are barred, and
only lawyers and relatives are permitted to visit them. They spend their days praying, studying the Koran, embroidering and
watching television.
One pretty girl in her early twenties ran away from home after she was forced to marry a wealthy man twice her age. Her
father filed a police case against her for eloping with a boy. In another case, a mother of five who sought a divorce said she
was kidnapped by her brothers and threatened with mutilation. A third inmate named Usma said her husband beat her and
took up with another woman but that her parents forced her to return to him.
``My parents say it is shameful for me to want a divorce,`` said Usma, who has been confined for more than a year. ``They
say it will ruin their reputation and that no one will marry me if I am second-hand. I don`t want to go home. I don`t want to
get remarried. I just want to be free.``
For Pakistani women who have been scarred by domestic violence, remarriage is almost unthinkable; sometimes suspicious
husbands disfigure them so they will not be attractive to other men. Zahida Perveen, a slim woman with curly black hair,
may well have caught her brother-in-law`s eye as a pretty young bride.
Now, her face is a scarred and sightless mask that evokes horror and disgust from strangers. But once in a while, when her
veil drops, it arouses other emotions. Last month, as Perveen crouched outside the Gujar Khan courtroom, an elderly
woman watched her silently and began to weep. The woman let her own veil drop, revealing a jaw and cheek that had been
badly burned 20 years before.
``It was an accident,`` explained a man who sat next to her.
``It was an accident,`` the woman repeated quickly, and readjusted the veil over her face.
In the Name of Family Honor
Culturally sanctioned killing of women in the name of preserving the family`s honor remains a serious problem in many
countries. Although little information is available, some groups have estimated honor-killing incidents:
Bangladesh: Between 1996 and 1998, about 200 women were reported to have been attacked with acid by husbands or
close relatives; deaths unknown.
Egypt: 52 violent crimes reported against women in 1997; in some cases the perpetrator was the victim`s mother or sister.
Jordan: 20 killings reported in 1998. Human rights and women`s activists have urged amendments to the penal code, which
exempts honor killings from punishment or reduces penalties in such cases.
Lebanon: 36 honor crimes between 1996 and 1998, mostly in towns and small villages; deaths unknown.
Pakistan: Hundreds killed each year. In Sindh province alone, more than 300 women were reported killed last year, and in
Punjab province 278.
Palestine territory: In the Gaza Strip, 177 women believed killed between 1996 and 1998 in 239 reported attacks. The
deaths were attributed to natural causes.
SOURCES: UNICEF, national women`s groups
If you think Saudi Arab is an awful place for sisters to be in then you ain`t seen nothin yet...there are worse possibilities: Read on what goes on in the land of pure whose citizens are working tirelessly for the human rights of Kashmiris, Chechens, Bosnians, Phillipinos, etc. etc. (except for the people of their own country)
In Pakistan, Women Pay The Price of `Honor`
By Pamela Constable
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday , May 8, 2000 ; A01
GUJAR KHAN, Pakistan –– Zahida Perveen`s head is shrouded in a white cotton veil, which she self-consciously tightens
every few moments. But when she reaches down to pick up her baby daughter, the veil falls away to reveal the face of one
of Pakistan`s most horrific social ills, broadly known as ``honor`` crimes.
Perveen`s eyes are empty sockets of unseeing flesh, her earlobes have been sliced off, and her nose is a gaping, reddened
stump of bone. Sixteen months ago, her husband, in a fit of rage over her alleged affair with a brother-in-law, bound her
hands and feet and slashed her with a razor and knife. She was three months` pregnant at the time.
``He came home from the mosque and accused me of having a bad character,`` the tiny, 32-year-old woman murmured as
she awaited a court hearing last month. ``I told him it was not true, but he didn`t believe me. He caught me and tied me up,
and then he started cutting my face. He never said a word except, `This is your last night.` ``
Perveen`s disfigurement is extreme, but her case is standard in its basic elements. Thousands of Pakistani women and girls
are stabbed, burned or maimed every year by husbands, fathers or brothers who believe they have brought them dishonor
by being unfaithful, seeking a divorce, eloping with a boyfriend or refusing to marry a man chosen by the family.
If a victim dies, the crime becomes an ``honor killing,`` a term that has come to symbolize the cruel irony of a conservative
Islamic society that purports to shelter women, yet often condones savage violence against them in the name of male and
family honor.
The problem of honor killings in Pakistan, while far from new or unique, has aroused international attention since April,
when Samia Sarwar, 29, was shot dead in the law office of a leading human rights activist. It turned out that her parents had
ordered the killing because she had shamed the family by seeking a divorce.
In the past, elected Pakistani leaders have resisted taking action against honor killings, but last month military ruler Gen.
Pervez Musharraf launched a national human rights campaign, singling out honor killings for special denunciation.
Government officials said they are hoping to reduce Pakistan`s isolation abroad as well as increase domestic awareness of
the issue.
``The government of Pakistan vigorously condemns the practice of so-called honor killings,`` Musharraf declared. ``Such acts
do not find a place in our religion or law. Killing in the name of honor is murder, and it will be treated as such.``
Such crimes occur in countries across the world and among societies of all faiths; a jealous husband in the United States
may be driven to the same act of rage as one in Pakistan or Portugal. But such attacks tend to be taken more seriously by
authorities in developed countries, where women are more educated about their rights.
Moreover, because the concepts of male honor and female subservience are deeply ingrained in Islamic and Asian tribal
cultures, honor crimes including killing have occurred for years in Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt and other Muslim countries,
including Pakistan, without provoking widespread outcry.
``The concept of honor killing does not exist in Islamic law, but conservative tradition is very strong in our culture. Islam
gives rights to women, but society snuffs them out,`` said Nayyar Shebana, a lawyer with the Aurat Foundation, a women`s
advocacy group in Islamabad, the Pakistani capital.
Only sketchy statistics are available on honor crimes, but the independent Human Rights Commission of Pakistan reported
that in 1998 and 1999, more than 850 women were killed by their husbands, brothers, fathers or other relatives in Punjab,
Pakistan`s most populous province. In many of those cases, the commission said, the woman was suspected of what was
considered immoral behavior.
Another common form of domestic violence against Pakistani women is burning. In 1998 and 1999, the commission
reported more than 560 cases of women burned at home in Punjab. In 1998, nearly half the victims died. Many cases were
suspicious, but there were only a handful of arrests. The Progressive Women`s Association, which assists attack victims,
tracked 3,560 women who were hospitalized after being attacked at home with fire, gasoline or acid between 1994 and
1999.
``We deal with these cases every day, but I have seen very few convictions,`` said Nahida Mahbooba Elahi, a lawyer and
women`s rights activist who represents honor crime victims. ``The men say the wife didn`t obey their orders, or was having
relations with someone else. The police often say it is a domestic matter and refuse to pursue the case. Some judges even
justify it and do not consider it murder.``
Since the outcry over Samia Sarwar`s killing, dozens of other cases have come to light, largely as a result of pressure and
publicity by women`s groups. In recent interviews, victims or their families described the following incidents of extreme
domestic violence:
* Perveen Aktar, 37, was severely burned in September when her husband, a fruit peddler in Rawalpindi, threw acid on
her. According to Aktar, whose face, chest and back are badly scarred, her husband wanted to return to his first wife, and
she refused. She said she went to the police, but that her husband paid them a series of bribes and they did not investigate.
He has since fled to another city.
* Zarina, 40, fled her home in Kashmir after her 20-year-old stepson shot her younger sister dead; the girl had wanted to
marry a boyfriend whom the stepson did not like. Zarina said her husband sided with his son, beat her and threatened to kill
their 2-year-old daughter when Zarina asked for a divorce. Zarina and her daughter are now in hiding in a private women`s
shelter.
* Kousar Perveen, a 32-year-old mother of four from Talagang, about 100 miles south of Islamabad, was allegedly beaten
and burned to death by her in-laws in February. According to her parents and sisters, the in-laws had forbidden her to leave
their house, even to visit her ailing parents or attend a cousin`s wedding, and she had quarreled bitterly with them.
``They killed my daughter. God help me,`` sobbed Manzour Hussain, 75, his limbs shaking violently with palsy as two
neighbors carried him to a protest organized by the Progressive Women`s Association at the Talagang courthouse in April.
The in-laws reportedly claimed she had been burned in a kitchen fire, but Hussain`s family said she had been tied up and
murdered. Two people are under arrest, but no trial date has been set.
According to lawyers and women`s rights advocates, many such cases are never brought to trial. They say police are easily
bribed or persuaded by the men`s families to dismiss the complaints as ``domestic accidents.`` Many victims, especially
uneducated women confined to their husband`s homes, are too intimidated to press charges. Moreover, under another
Islamic legal concept called qisas and diyat, a blood relative of a victim can formally ``forgive`` a crime in exchange for
payment, with specific sums prescribed for damage to each body part.
Police officials say that many domestic crimes are never brought to their attention, that the complaints are often without merit
and that they prefer to settle minor ones informally. But they insist that they pursue all violent crimes and murder charges
with equal vigor, no matter what the motive.
``We want to punish the man who has done this, and the authorities are committed to doing all we can to help,`` said
Ikramullah Niazi, a police magistrate in Talagang who reassured Kousar Perveen`s relatives outside the courthouse. ``But it is
difficult to collect evidence, and whether he is acquitted or convicted is a matter for the judiciary. There is only so much we
can do.``
Women`s rights advocates have praised Musharraf for his strong statement condemning honor killings, but they note it has
not been accompanied by any moves to bolster investigations or prosecutions. They also predict that such crimes will occur
with impunity as long as the laws that enshrine men`s superiority over women remain unchanged and as long as the popular
belief persists that a woman`s sexual sins must be avenged.
``Sections of society continued to regard any expression of independence by women as an infamy, and the only way to
restore the family`s honor was to promptly put an end to the life of the transgressor,`` the Human Rights Commission said last
year. The subordination of women was so ``routine,`` the group noted, that domestic violence was widely considered
``normal`` behavior--even by the victims themselves.
Zahida Perveen`s husband, a 40-year-old barber named Mahmoud Iqbal, does not deny that he carved up her face with his
razor on the night of Dec. 28, 1998. His defense is based on the Islamic legal concept of ghairat, or uncontrollable actions in
the face of extreme provocation--in this case, suspicion that his wife was being unfaithful. He took no action against the
brother-in-law with whom she was thought to be involved.
``I did these things, but I was going out of my senses,`` said the stocky bearded man, shackled to a policeman with thick iron
chains, as he stood on a balcony outside the Gujar Khan courtroom, about 20 miles from Rawalpindi, awaiting an evidence
hearing in the case. ``She was provoking me and ruining my life. What I did was wrong, but I am satisfied. I did it for my
honor and prestige.``
As Iqbal was taken to a police van after the hearing, several male relatives and acquaintances approached and shook his
manacled hand. Later, when journalists showed his wife`s photographs to a group of middle-class men in Islamabad, several
of them commented that she ``must have deserved it`` and that her husband ``did what a man has to do.``
Although Pakistani law does not condone murder in the name of honor, it does contain strict Islamic ordinances enacted in
1979 that prescribe harsh punishment for the crime of zina, which means committing adultery or having premarital sex.
Under these ordinances, men and women can be stoned to death or publicly whipped 100 times for committing zina, but
such charges are brought almost exclusively against women. Harsh penalties are rarely imposed, largely because it is very
difficult to prove that the alleged sexual acts have occurred. But women`s advocates say the law intimidates women,
prevents them from demanding their rights and encourages men to abuse them with impunity.
``Usually the women are eventually acquitted, but they may spend several years in jail meanwhile,`` said Shebana, the
women`s advocacy lawyer. ``Their families are happy to have them in prison, because they have disgraced the family by
eloping and they must be made to suffer for it.``
In Pakistani society, women who are accused of zina, or who seek divorce and are not living with their parents, are often
ordered to remain in jail or in locked government shelters while their case is pending. In theory, these shelters are intended
to protect unattached women, but in practice they also seek to protect society from them and to ensure they do not engage
in sex.
There are currently 28 women confined to the shelter in Rawalpindi. The doors and windows to their rooms are barred, and
only lawyers and relatives are permitted to visit them. They spend their days praying, studying the Koran, embroidering and
watching television.
One pretty girl in her early twenties ran away from home after she was forced to marry a wealthy man twice her age. Her
father filed a police case against her for eloping with a boy. In another case, a mother of five who sought a divorce said she
was kidnapped by her brothers and threatened with mutilation. A third inmate named Usma said her husband beat her and
took up with another woman but that her parents forced her to return to him.
``My parents say it is shameful for me to want a divorce,`` said Usma, who has been confined for more than a year. ``They
say it will ruin their reputation and that no one will marry me if I am second-hand. I don`t want to go home. I don`t want to
get remarried. I just want to be free.``
For Pakistani women who have been scarred by domestic violence, remarriage is almost unthinkable; sometimes suspicious
husbands disfigure them so they will not be attractive to other men. Zahida Perveen, a slim woman with curly black hair,
may well have caught her brother-in-law`s eye as a pretty young bride.
Now, her face is a scarred and sightless mask that evokes horror and disgust from strangers. But once in a while, when her
veil drops, it arouses other emotions. Last month, as Perveen crouched outside the Gujar Khan courtroom, an elderly
woman watched her silently and began to weep. The woman let her own veil drop, revealing a jaw and cheek that had been
badly burned 20 years before.
``It was an accident,`` explained a man who sat next to her.
``It was an accident,`` the woman repeated quickly, and readjusted the veil over her face.
In the Name of Family Honor
Culturally sanctioned killing of women in the name of preserving the family`s honor remains a serious problem in many
countries. Although little information is available, some groups have estimated honor-killing incidents:
Bangladesh: Between 1996 and 1998, about 200 women were reported to have been attacked with acid by husbands or
close relatives; deaths unknown.
Egypt: 52 violent crimes reported against women in 1997; in some cases the perpetrator was the victim`s mother or sister.
Jordan: 20 killings reported in 1998. Human rights and women`s activists have urged amendments to the penal code, which
exempts honor killings from punishment or reduces penalties in such cases.
Lebanon: 36 honor crimes between 1996 and 1998, mostly in towns and small villages; deaths unknown.
Pakistan: Hundreds killed each year. In Sindh province alone, more than 300 women were reported killed last year, and in
Punjab province 278.
Palestine territory: In the Gaza Strip, 177 women believed killed between 1996 and 1998 in 239 reported attacks. The
deaths were attributed to natural causes.
SOURCES: UNICEF, national women`s groups
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#99 Posted by soccermom on April 21, 2000 10:23:20 pm
Hi,
Hey did you all know that there are seperate standards for American/British , and seperate for the rest of the people!
Hey did you all know that there are seperate standards for American/British , and seperate for the rest of the people!
#98 Posted by krashid on April 19, 2000 12:21:41 am
I think Ansar Burney is getting some aid for his cause from Saudi Arabia.
Ansar Burney, is one who has worked tirelessly for the improvement of prisoners in jail. And like Edhi is taken in high esteem by Pakistanis.
Ansar Burney, is one who has worked tirelessly for the improvement of prisoners in jail. And like Edhi is taken in high esteem by Pakistanis.
#97 Posted by mohajir on April 18, 2000 10:24:35 pm
Ansar Burney Trust to confer awards on Mideast princes
KARACHI, April 17(Online): Ansar Burney Welfare Trust International has decided to confer its `Certificate of great appreciation` on five middle east princes for their services towards upholding human rights in their resopective capacities.
The princes chosen are HRH Prince Abdullah Ibn Abdul Aziz Al Saud, First Deputy Prime Minister and Commander of the National Guard of the Saudi Arabia, HRH Prince Naif Ibn Abdul Aziz Al Saud, Saudi Minister for Interior, HRH Prince Turki Mohammed bin Saud, Under Secretary for political affairs in Saudi Foreign Ministry, HRH Sheikh Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa, Amir of Bahrain and HH General Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, Crown Prince of Dubai and Minister of Defence of UAE.
This was announced by Ansar Burney Advocate chairman of the Trust, is based in Pakistan and having offices and representatives in USA, United Kingdom, Germany, France, India and other countries.
HRH Prince Abdullah, HRH Prince Naif, HRH Prince Turki, HRH Sheikh Hamad and HH Sheikh Mohammed have been selected for this prestigious award for their services to humanity and for the promotion of human rights in their respective countries.
HRH Prince Abdullah Ibn Abdul Aziz Al Saud, has been selected for the prestigious award due his role in promoting peace in the Arab World, for his role as an advocate for the betterment of human rights in Saudi Arabia and for record releasing of National and Foreign prisoners in the very greater interest of humanity.
``HRH Prince Abdullah`s role for the resolution of conflicts and his contribution towards the uplift of poor people and distressed communities around the world irrespective of their cast, colour and creed is admirable``, said Ansar Burney, Chairman of the ``Ansar Burney Welfare Trust International`` and himself the winner of 198 national and international awards for his selfless services for human rights and civil liberties around the world.
The decision on the venue for the presentation of the award will be taken in Riyadh, Dubai or Islamabad.
KARACHI, April 17(Online): Ansar Burney Welfare Trust International has decided to confer its `Certificate of great appreciation` on five middle east princes for their services towards upholding human rights in their resopective capacities.
The princes chosen are HRH Prince Abdullah Ibn Abdul Aziz Al Saud, First Deputy Prime Minister and Commander of the National Guard of the Saudi Arabia, HRH Prince Naif Ibn Abdul Aziz Al Saud, Saudi Minister for Interior, HRH Prince Turki Mohammed bin Saud, Under Secretary for political affairs in Saudi Foreign Ministry, HRH Sheikh Hamad bin Isa Al Khalifa, Amir of Bahrain and HH General Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum, Crown Prince of Dubai and Minister of Defence of UAE.
This was announced by Ansar Burney Advocate chairman of the Trust, is based in Pakistan and having offices and representatives in USA, United Kingdom, Germany, France, India and other countries.
HRH Prince Abdullah, HRH Prince Naif, HRH Prince Turki, HRH Sheikh Hamad and HH Sheikh Mohammed have been selected for this prestigious award for their services to humanity and for the promotion of human rights in their respective countries.
HRH Prince Abdullah Ibn Abdul Aziz Al Saud, has been selected for the prestigious award due his role in promoting peace in the Arab World, for his role as an advocate for the betterment of human rights in Saudi Arabia and for record releasing of National and Foreign prisoners in the very greater interest of humanity.
``HRH Prince Abdullah`s role for the resolution of conflicts and his contribution towards the uplift of poor people and distressed communities around the world irrespective of their cast, colour and creed is admirable``, said Ansar Burney, Chairman of the ``Ansar Burney Welfare Trust International`` and himself the winner of 198 national and international awards for his selfless services for human rights and civil liberties around the world.
The decision on the venue for the presentation of the award will be taken in Riyadh, Dubai or Islamabad.
#96 Posted by sadna on April 14, 2000 12:51:56 pm
OMAR1974 #102
Pakistanis genuinely concerned about the status of women will do best by urging the current regime to reserve a good proportion of local government seats and leadership positions exclusively for women in the upcoming local elections.
Sadhana
Pakistanis genuinely concerned about the status of women will do best by urging the current regime to reserve a good proportion of local government seats and leadership positions exclusively for women in the upcoming local elections.
Sadhana
#95 Posted by krashid on April 14, 2000 4:21:51 am
Omar#1974.
Your post makes sense.
At least you understand that it is the society. But also you have to see the stage of development of society.
Like if you see the films of 50`s on American Television, they are more akin to our current Indian and Pakistani movies. What I understand, and looking at behaviour of that generation, that they were very conservative. I don`t think shaking hands with male was a norm. At least not in place where I live.
On the other hand, different parts of country as I said Karachi and North of Mansehra have very different attitude.
I lived in a village in Iran, where the old generation of time of liberal Shah, was very conservative with ``Chadar`` etc. But the attitude of old Tehrani women even in ``Purdah`` was much different.
Probably because of economy of rural and tribal areas which leads to patriarchal society, compared to the economy of highly industrialized nation in which women are not dependent on men for sustenance.
So issue is not that if you force the women in Mansehra to wear bikini, they will become advanced.
The issue is how to empower woman in education and economics.
On the issue of strict enforcement of dress code.
On the one hand by Shariat, on the other by liberals.
I think, it is the responsibility of advanced or intellectual segment of society to empower the nation as an independent nation.
The example of coersive European Church and the epic struggle by advanced forces should always act as a guide.
If our Mullah is related to past. Our intellectual has a subordination to West.
Any discussion, keeping away from make up of Pakistan society and in its different region is anarchism. To give you another example. See the stand of different religious parties on various issues and behaviour of different parties according to region.
Like Jamat Islami is mainly concentrated in big cities. While JUI is mainly concentrated in more tribal areas.To be able to succeed, they change stands in different regions also.
Only education and independent economy will lead to a road where you can judge better.
The case in point is Iran and China.
I am impressed by them. And a reading of their development in last few decades is probably worthwhile even in culture.
(The example of Iran and China is because they have adopted an independent path due to isolation for a long time)
Your post makes sense.
At least you understand that it is the society. But also you have to see the stage of development of society.
Like if you see the films of 50`s on American Television, they are more akin to our current Indian and Pakistani movies. What I understand, and looking at behaviour of that generation, that they were very conservative. I don`t think shaking hands with male was a norm. At least not in place where I live.
On the other hand, different parts of country as I said Karachi and North of Mansehra have very different attitude.
I lived in a village in Iran, where the old generation of time of liberal Shah, was very conservative with ``Chadar`` etc. But the attitude of old Tehrani women even in ``Purdah`` was much different.
Probably because of economy of rural and tribal areas which leads to patriarchal society, compared to the economy of highly industrialized nation in which women are not dependent on men for sustenance.
So issue is not that if you force the women in Mansehra to wear bikini, they will become advanced.
The issue is how to empower woman in education and economics.
On the issue of strict enforcement of dress code.
On the one hand by Shariat, on the other by liberals.
I think, it is the responsibility of advanced or intellectual segment of society to empower the nation as an independent nation.
The example of coersive European Church and the epic struggle by advanced forces should always act as a guide.
If our Mullah is related to past. Our intellectual has a subordination to West.
Any discussion, keeping away from make up of Pakistan society and in its different region is anarchism. To give you another example. See the stand of different religious parties on various issues and behaviour of different parties according to region.
Like Jamat Islami is mainly concentrated in big cities. While JUI is mainly concentrated in more tribal areas.To be able to succeed, they change stands in different regions also.
Only education and independent economy will lead to a road where you can judge better.
The case in point is Iran and China.
I am impressed by them. And a reading of their development in last few decades is probably worthwhile even in culture.
(The example of Iran and China is because they have adopted an independent path due to isolation for a long time)
#94 Posted by OMAR1974 on April 13, 2000 9:47:07 pm
Gynosophist : I appreciate your support as i did your post on my article, Talibanization or the Turkih Model? discussing the real reason WHY Afghan refugees fled when the Russians came to Afghanistan. They did not want their daughters to be forced to compulsorily attend school. The state should use whatvever force is necessary to either enroll them in schools, or kick them out of Pakistan.
RashidK: While it would be out of place to wear a Bikini in Piccadilly Circus, as much as on the streets of Karachi or New York, it would NOT be out of place for a girl to wear a short sleeves shirt & a pair of jeans there (and nothing more) in the street or even in some village, it should not arouse any protest.
You are making an absurd argument by suggesting i am in favor of womyn wearing bikinis in the streets of major cities, rural areas etc.
The proper and logical place to wear a Bikini is on THE BEACH, which is the only place womyn would want to wear a Bikini (my previous example of throwing a party at Sandspit).
As I quoted Justice Cardozo, we live here ``in a scheme of ordered liberty.``
You`ll note the words order mean societal interests, and the words LIBERTY mean individual freedom. It is my considered opinion that society
has the OPPRESSED INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY INTEREST FAR MORE than is necessary in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan etc.
You`re right ofcourse about there being a balance between the competing interests of society and the individual. The absolute liberty of the jungle does not exist, according to social contract theory. We give up some of our liberty in order to live in a civilized society. How much, is the question, rather than whether we give up any at all. America is certainly not an EXTREMIST society, it has found a good balance between individuual freedom and societal interests in maintaining order. The difference is obviously that in Pakistan the societal interests are dictated by standards set over a thousand years ago, that have not evolved due to a stagnant, rigid system of law, which has also stagnated our thinking and left the Muslim world unable to compete in almost any endevor with the West be it science or whatever.
As for my attitude as to whether it would be acceptable for my sisters, or wives, to wear a bikini if we went to the beach together, yes, i think if i had either; (i don`t), they would belong to the right age group (mine) in order to wear a bikini w/o looking ridiculous and i would most certainly not object to it because i am not one for double standards. You see standards change by generation, as all things do in a normal society which allows for the possibility of change, rather than following a ridgid, inflexible system of belief (which is what Islamic thought has been reduced to by close minded fools like Mulla Omar), and in realiity today, it only serves as a cover for a return to primitive tribal social structures.
You cannot FORCE someone on the basis on religion to do Purdah or wear hijab. That becomes OPPRESSION, like in Saudi Arabia & Afghanistan, and many parts of Pakistan. There can be no compulsion in religion. But similarly, i am not forcing anyone to wear a bikini, even on a beach in Pakistan. I am only in favor of choice, because other, highly technologically advanced societies have not crumbled as a result of tolerating bikinis on beaches.
Pakistan needs to shed the middle ages control mentality. It needs an Ataturk to emancipate womyn, reform the laws so justice and reason takes precedence over so-called religious dicates.
The first place to start is by getting rid of the so called ulema. Even today in Pakistan 15 people are reported to have been guned down in an Imambargah. When will people learn, and at how much cost in blood, that RELIGION & POLITICS DON`T MIX. Religion is a matter of PERSONAL BELIEF, whether I believe in Allah, or HanUman, (the Hindu monkey-good) is entirely my own affair.
The state should never endorse/support a particular religion over others. It only leads extremists to conclude that ``their religion`` (which is no more valid that anyone elses`) is the ONLY RIGHT WAY, and everyone else is a KAFIR.
No, I prefer to see bikinis on beaches anyday of the MILLENIUM, rather than bloodshed in places of worship as a social ideal. Bikinis, as long as they are worn by free choice, are appropiate clothing for public/pvt pools & beaches and should be tolerated. The only objection to them is based on principles of religious intolerance, which i am bound to oppose.
OMAR MIRZA
RashidK: While it would be out of place to wear a Bikini in Piccadilly Circus, as much as on the streets of Karachi or New York, it would NOT be out of place for a girl to wear a short sleeves shirt & a pair of jeans there (and nothing more) in the street or even in some village, it should not arouse any protest.
You are making an absurd argument by suggesting i am in favor of womyn wearing bikinis in the streets of major cities, rural areas etc.
The proper and logical place to wear a Bikini is on THE BEACH, which is the only place womyn would want to wear a Bikini (my previous example of throwing a party at Sandspit).
As I quoted Justice Cardozo, we live here ``in a scheme of ordered liberty.``
You`ll note the words order mean societal interests, and the words LIBERTY mean individual freedom. It is my considered opinion that society
has the OPPRESSED INDIVIDUAL LIBERTY INTEREST FAR MORE than is necessary in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan etc.
You`re right ofcourse about there being a balance between the competing interests of society and the individual. The absolute liberty of the jungle does not exist, according to social contract theory. We give up some of our liberty in order to live in a civilized society. How much, is the question, rather than whether we give up any at all. America is certainly not an EXTREMIST society, it has found a good balance between individuual freedom and societal interests in maintaining order. The difference is obviously that in Pakistan the societal interests are dictated by standards set over a thousand years ago, that have not evolved due to a stagnant, rigid system of law, which has also stagnated our thinking and left the Muslim world unable to compete in almost any endevor with the West be it science or whatever.
As for my attitude as to whether it would be acceptable for my sisters, or wives, to wear a bikini if we went to the beach together, yes, i think if i had either; (i don`t), they would belong to the right age group (mine) in order to wear a bikini w/o looking ridiculous and i would most certainly not object to it because i am not one for double standards. You see standards change by generation, as all things do in a normal society which allows for the possibility of change, rather than following a ridgid, inflexible system of belief (which is what Islamic thought has been reduced to by close minded fools like Mulla Omar), and in realiity today, it only serves as a cover for a return to primitive tribal social structures.
You cannot FORCE someone on the basis on religion to do Purdah or wear hijab. That becomes OPPRESSION, like in Saudi Arabia & Afghanistan, and many parts of Pakistan. There can be no compulsion in religion. But similarly, i am not forcing anyone to wear a bikini, even on a beach in Pakistan. I am only in favor of choice, because other, highly technologically advanced societies have not crumbled as a result of tolerating bikinis on beaches.
Pakistan needs to shed the middle ages control mentality. It needs an Ataturk to emancipate womyn, reform the laws so justice and reason takes precedence over so-called religious dicates.
The first place to start is by getting rid of the so called ulema. Even today in Pakistan 15 people are reported to have been guned down in an Imambargah. When will people learn, and at how much cost in blood, that RELIGION & POLITICS DON`T MIX. Religion is a matter of PERSONAL BELIEF, whether I believe in Allah, or HanUman, (the Hindu monkey-good) is entirely my own affair.
The state should never endorse/support a particular religion over others. It only leads extremists to conclude that ``their religion`` (which is no more valid that anyone elses`) is the ONLY RIGHT WAY, and everyone else is a KAFIR.
No, I prefer to see bikinis on beaches anyday of the MILLENIUM, rather than bloodshed in places of worship as a social ideal. Bikinis, as long as they are worn by free choice, are appropiate clothing for public/pvt pools & beaches and should be tolerated. The only objection to them is based on principles of religious intolerance, which i am bound to oppose.
OMAR MIRZA
#93 Posted by gymnosophist on April 13, 2000 3:36:51 pm
Ref krashid #: 96
You say {Also there is a crime of obscenity in America. Walking naked.}
Well, one can always go to nudist colonies or clothing-optional beaches in the West to avoid being arrested. However, I am reminded of the famous `Maked Guy` who used to go to UC-Berkeley completely naked. He walked down the street from his dorm room to classes and back completely naked. He was not arrested by Berkeley police for obscenity and it took the university 2 terms before they finally managed to expel him.
Omar Mirza, I agree with your statement that women should walk around wearing bikinis in Pakistan as a form of protest. Just like the women who protested the laws in New York city that prevented female toplessness but not male toplessness by taking their tops off in public parks during summer. The judge threw out the obscenity laws when the women were brought to trial.
What happened to all those Western educated Pak women who make the claim that they wear the hijab by choice? It would be interesting to hear their opinion.
PS. All those males who are so worried about protecting women from men by enclosing the women in burquas: why don`t you guys advocate what your beloved Mughal emperors did to solve the problem? Bobbittize the men and turn them into eunuchs. Then you would be protecting the chastity of your women as well as affirming your direct descent from the ruling classes of Mughal India. Two birds with one stone, eh? Go for it! Al it requires is a slip of the knife during the circumcision ceremony! What? No takers, I see.
You say {Also there is a crime of obscenity in America. Walking naked.}
Well, one can always go to nudist colonies or clothing-optional beaches in the West to avoid being arrested. However, I am reminded of the famous `Maked Guy` who used to go to UC-Berkeley completely naked. He walked down the street from his dorm room to classes and back completely naked. He was not arrested by Berkeley police for obscenity and it took the university 2 terms before they finally managed to expel him.
Omar Mirza, I agree with your statement that women should walk around wearing bikinis in Pakistan as a form of protest. Just like the women who protested the laws in New York city that prevented female toplessness but not male toplessness by taking their tops off in public parks during summer. The judge threw out the obscenity laws when the women were brought to trial.
What happened to all those Western educated Pak women who make the claim that they wear the hijab by choice? It would be interesting to hear their opinion.
PS. All those males who are so worried about protecting women from men by enclosing the women in burquas: why don`t you guys advocate what your beloved Mughal emperors did to solve the problem? Bobbittize the men and turn them into eunuchs. Then you would be protecting the chastity of your women as well as affirming your direct descent from the ruling classes of Mughal India. Two birds with one stone, eh? Go for it! Al it requires is a slip of the knife during the circumcision ceremony! What? No takers, I see.
#92 Posted by krashid on April 13, 2000 9:53:06 am
Omar 1974
I have seen your posts.
You are of the opinion of liberalism.
What is individual freedom. And what is the requirement of society.
Pakistani society is a mix. There are different behaviour in different parts. Like Karachi has much different behaviour than say North of Mansehra. If you travel on that road, you will realize that if a car passes, women working on field cover their face, for whatever reason.
Even if you put all those women in Bikini is not going to solve the problem.
When you talk about this, many will start looking at their daughters, sisters, wives and mothers in bikini, do you think, that is acceptable. Definitely it is a trend of patriarchal society, but until and unless women are empowered economically and politically and in education things are not going to change.
Let me give you a task. If you want to understand relation between individual and society. Go naked in day time on picaddily and walk for one hour.
If you can do that out of free will, I accept your argument. If you cannot do that, what is the validity of your point of bikini in Pakistan street.
I have seen your posts.
You are of the opinion of liberalism.
What is individual freedom. And what is the requirement of society.
Pakistani society is a mix. There are different behaviour in different parts. Like Karachi has much different behaviour than say North of Mansehra. If you travel on that road, you will realize that if a car passes, women working on field cover their face, for whatever reason.
Even if you put all those women in Bikini is not going to solve the problem.
When you talk about this, many will start looking at their daughters, sisters, wives and mothers in bikini, do you think, that is acceptable. Definitely it is a trend of patriarchal society, but until and unless women are empowered economically and politically and in education things are not going to change.
Let me give you a task. If you want to understand relation between individual and society. Go naked in day time on picaddily and walk for one hour.
If you can do that out of free will, I accept your argument. If you cannot do that, what is the validity of your point of bikini in Pakistan street.
#91 Posted by SMK on April 13, 2000 1:12:47 am
DEAR SAADIA SALAM I AM VERY PROUD OF YOUR COURAGE AND HOPEFUL THAT THE THERE WILL BE MORE PEOPLE LIKE YOU TO COME FORWARD SO THE WORLD CAN START KNOWING ABOUT THE GRUSOM REALITY OF THE SAUDI KINGDOM WHICH IS NOT ONLY AGAINST THE TEACHING OF ISLAM BUT ALSO AGAINST THE HUMANITY .
#90 Posted by OMAR1974 on April 13, 2000 1:12:47 am
Q. for Omarphoenix
And pray do tell us how you feel about a womyn`s right to choose to have an abortion, if you can, without taking diction from Qazi Hussein & Mulla Omar. What makes you think you or society should have the right to tell a womyn whether or not to carry a fetus to term ? (Anticpating your answer since i understand your mentality)
love from New York,
OMAR MIRZA
And pray do tell us how you feel about a womyn`s right to choose to have an abortion, if you can, without taking diction from Qazi Hussein & Mulla Omar. What makes you think you or society should have the right to tell a womyn whether or not to carry a fetus to term ? (Anticpating your answer since i understand your mentality)
love from New York,
OMAR MIRZA
#89 Posted by OMAR1974 on April 13, 2000 1:12:47 am
Regarding #95 Omarphoenix (closet supporter of the imposition of Sharia law)
`Women are not equal to men. I repeat, women are not equal to men. Can u read? Women are not equal to men, because men and women are DIFFERENT. However, neither sex is better than the other! I repeat, neither sex is better than the other. `
OmarM: Well, frankly, my concern is with having a system of law that treats everyone equally. For me, Equal = Fair.
`My friend, you are an extremist (ouch).`
OmarM. Well if standing up for oppressed womyn (and incidently, against an outdated Sharia jurisprudence that has not evolved in a thousand years) makes me an `extremist`, i`ll wear that label PROUDLY, ANY DAY OF THE MILLENIUM.
`Omar M, you seem to forget that we are living in a society and the concept of absolute freedom is pure 24-Karat gibberish. If you want true liberty, then go out to the jungles where you will not interact with your species.`
OmarM: We live here, in the memorable words of Justice Cardozo, in ``a scheme of ordered liberty.`` Womyn in Bikinis, don`t threaten to create social disorder , much as you seem to imply or believe. In fact without saying so implictly, the only reason you`re opposed to anything less than the state of hijab for womyn is because of divine revelation. I note that you do not comment on the 2nd principle in my previous posts at all, of womyn being posessed of free will in equal measure as any HUMAN BEING. Bottom line, i`m having a party at Sandspit, the only womyn there are wearing Bikinis OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL ... do you support their arrest by the cops? See the difference between us, is that i`m not telling them what to wear, just giving them freedom of choice to decide themselves what to wear. Something which you impliedly reject on the basis of Sharia, which denies them the RIGHT to be free of state oppression in choosing what to wear. In so doing, it legitimizes the practice by society of `honor killings` by reducing an individuals right to chose his/her own moral code of conduct w/o harming anyone. A womyn in a bikini ain`t harming anyone. You just can`t get over that.
`This whole concept about `it`s my life` means that some guy on some western street beats the crap out of his girlfriend and nobody does anything, because `it`s their life, it`s their problem.`
OmarM: Sorry, bad example, that guy should be arrested, and prosecuted for commiting a ccrime against society by the police in any society. No society that stands for the rule of law would disagree. But, in Pakistan honor killings are acceptable to large segments of society, and killers walk free, as do rapists, but victims of rape do get punished, because the sharia influenced state has chosen to minutely regulate the dress and personal affairs of individuals POSESSED OF FREE WILL.
A concept which you clearly avoid affirming i see. Frankly i don`t think anyone`s personal sexual conduct needs to be the business of the state. It only serves to provide the social-moral legitimacy to acts of honor killings, which have no place in a civilized society.
And, Stoning people to death etc for consensual sexual relations outside marriage is completely at odds with the modern liberal state, as is the notion of cutting of someone`s hand. However, it dovetails completely with a tribal desert society where life ws harsh, that was based on EXTREMISM because that was the only type of `justice` possible (no jails existed). And therefore in the context of the 7th century is completely understandable. But not in the 21st.
OMAR MIRZA
`Women are not equal to men. I repeat, women are not equal to men. Can u read? Women are not equal to men, because men and women are DIFFERENT. However, neither sex is better than the other! I repeat, neither sex is better than the other. `
OmarM: Well, frankly, my concern is with having a system of law that treats everyone equally. For me, Equal = Fair.
`My friend, you are an extremist (ouch).`
OmarM. Well if standing up for oppressed womyn (and incidently, against an outdated Sharia jurisprudence that has not evolved in a thousand years) makes me an `extremist`, i`ll wear that label PROUDLY, ANY DAY OF THE MILLENIUM.
`Omar M, you seem to forget that we are living in a society and the concept of absolute freedom is pure 24-Karat gibberish. If you want true liberty, then go out to the jungles where you will not interact with your species.`
OmarM: We live here, in the memorable words of Justice Cardozo, in ``a scheme of ordered liberty.`` Womyn in Bikinis, don`t threaten to create social disorder , much as you seem to imply or believe. In fact without saying so implictly, the only reason you`re opposed to anything less than the state of hijab for womyn is because of divine revelation. I note that you do not comment on the 2nd principle in my previous posts at all, of womyn being posessed of free will in equal measure as any HUMAN BEING. Bottom line, i`m having a party at Sandspit, the only womyn there are wearing Bikinis OF THEIR OWN FREE WILL ... do you support their arrest by the cops? See the difference between us, is that i`m not telling them what to wear, just giving them freedom of choice to decide themselves what to wear. Something which you impliedly reject on the basis of Sharia, which denies them the RIGHT to be free of state oppression in choosing what to wear. In so doing, it legitimizes the practice by society of `honor killings` by reducing an individuals right to chose his/her own moral code of conduct w/o harming anyone. A womyn in a bikini ain`t harming anyone. You just can`t get over that.
`This whole concept about `it`s my life` means that some guy on some western street beats the crap out of his girlfriend and nobody does anything, because `it`s their life, it`s their problem.`
OmarM: Sorry, bad example, that guy should be arrested, and prosecuted for commiting a ccrime against society by the police in any society. No society that stands for the rule of law would disagree. But, in Pakistan honor killings are acceptable to large segments of society, and killers walk free, as do rapists, but victims of rape do get punished, because the sharia influenced state has chosen to minutely regulate the dress and personal affairs of individuals POSESSED OF FREE WILL.
A concept which you clearly avoid affirming i see. Frankly i don`t think anyone`s personal sexual conduct needs to be the business of the state. It only serves to provide the social-moral legitimacy to acts of honor killings, which have no place in a civilized society.
And, Stoning people to death etc for consensual sexual relations outside marriage is completely at odds with the modern liberal state, as is the notion of cutting of someone`s hand. However, it dovetails completely with a tribal desert society where life ws harsh, that was based on EXTREMISM because that was the only type of `justice` possible (no jails existed). And therefore in the context of the 7th century is completely understandable. But not in the 21st.
OMAR MIRZA
#88 Posted by krashid on April 13, 2000 1:12:47 am
The discussion is getting interested.
There is a personal freedom, to which there is no limit. But there is societal pressure which keeps it in check.
The joke that a person hit on the nose of another said to judge that I am free so that I can do whatever I like. The judge told that your freedom ends where the other person nose started, is very valid.
America is an example of extreme freedom. Are there restrictions on freedom. Many. Drug related crimes are an example. Including possession of Marijuana, cocaine and heroine. Selling it also a crime. So is restriction of prostitution in all states except Nevada. Why? Why driving while intoxicated is a crime. Why there are many laws to protect copyright. Also there is a crime of obscenity in America. Walking naked. Also it is a crime by organized labor to lockout etc. Why there are restrictions when man is born free. Why it is a crime to produce less standard product, without informing public.
So each society has its own restrictions.
So it is illogical reasoning to say that since women are born free so they can walk naked.
Some of these things depend upon the stage of development of society and perception and orientation of society.
Western society is capitalist. The basic requirement of which is peace and no harm to the interest of capitalist. And orientation of society is like that. If you have doubt regarding plight of women in West go to slums, go to strip clubs, go to work place, go to school, go to statistics etc etc.
If in America people don`t see a bikini women, it is not that they are pious, they are restricted by societal pressure, which works in opposite direction in our country where a scantily clad woman is looked by every sundry and all. And due to this societal pressure you don`t see bikini on streets in our country.
Nor do I think that wearing bikini is the hallmark of freedom of women. (If by freedom means individual freedom keeping the society intact)
This was my 0 cent opinion.(I don`t charge for writing)
There is a personal freedom, to which there is no limit. But there is societal pressure which keeps it in check.
The joke that a person hit on the nose of another said to judge that I am free so that I can do whatever I like. The judge told that your freedom ends where the other person nose started, is very valid.
America is an example of extreme freedom. Are there restrictions on freedom. Many. Drug related crimes are an example. Including possession of Marijuana, cocaine and heroine. Selling it also a crime. So is restriction of prostitution in all states except Nevada. Why? Why driving while intoxicated is a crime. Why there are many laws to protect copyright. Also there is a crime of obscenity in America. Walking naked. Also it is a crime by organized labor to lockout etc. Why there are restrictions when man is born free. Why it is a crime to produce less standard product, without informing public.
So each society has its own restrictions.
So it is illogical reasoning to say that since women are born free so they can walk naked.
Some of these things depend upon the stage of development of society and perception and orientation of society.
Western society is capitalist. The basic requirement of which is peace and no harm to the interest of capitalist. And orientation of society is like that. If you have doubt regarding plight of women in West go to slums, go to strip clubs, go to work place, go to school, go to statistics etc etc.
If in America people don`t see a bikini women, it is not that they are pious, they are restricted by societal pressure, which works in opposite direction in our country where a scantily clad woman is looked by every sundry and all. And due to this societal pressure you don`t see bikini on streets in our country.
Nor do I think that wearing bikini is the hallmark of freedom of women. (If by freedom means individual freedom keeping the society intact)
This was my 0 cent opinion.(I don`t charge for writing)
#87 Posted by Omarphoenix on April 12, 2000 2:55:01 am
Omar M,
Reply 94
Hmmm, the self proclaimed king of…whatever. It`s amusing to see how you have sung to yourself that you`ve won, especially as I never knew you were fighting with me. A certain loveable neighbour of Pakistan has a bad habit of doing that too. It`s good 2 know I`m getting up your skin. The truth is beginning to razor itself into your leather.
First of all, I have a job, so guess what, I can`t send massive essays onto the Internet, all the time. As for if I think I`m a budding artist, my dear matey, I`m not a budding artist, I`m a professional and have been selling my work since I was 17. Any way I can`t bear kissing my rear end any longer so I`ll get to the serious point:
I agree with you, women are not chattal. But here comes your first down fall. Your opinion on the equality of women is simply not sophisticated enough. Don`t worry, In the next 20 years, when the Amreeky constitutions evolve their laws, you will puppet along their ideas and maybe your thoughts then will coincide wit mine (wishful thinking). Women are not equal to men. I repeat, women are not equal to men. Can u read? Women are not equal to men, because men and women are DIFFERENT. However, neither sex is better than the other! I repeat, neither sex is better than the other. My favourite colour is blue, your favourite colour is yellow. We have different tastes in colour and they must be appreciated. But that does not imply my choice in colour as better than yours or vice versa. (Please don`t take this example literally).
Your second downfall. You`ve been reading too many books by the same author. Stop thinking in left, right, up, down, black or white. Get out of this extreme thinking that there are only two ways to life, the Mullah Omar way (whoever he is) or the `give me freedom or give me death` way. You`re just as bad as the person you label me with. My friend, you are an extremist (ouch).
For some reason you think that true `civilised freedom` is packaged along with sexual freedom (let me know if you wish me to elaborate) which will only come by when women can do anything they want to. Omar M, you seem to forget that we are living in a society and the concept of absolute freedom is pure 24-Karat gibberish. If you want true liberty, then go out to the jungles where you will not interact with your species. I would like to walk around butt naked, supporting my codpiece but I have to consider the other persons` feelings on this.
This bull about, `It`s my life` is destroying civilisation and dissolving the glue that once held us together, but because this process is so slow, we don`t realise it. Please do not confuse your full stomach, a pocket full of cash and economic stability with peace, freedom, and civility. This whole concept about `it`s my life` means that some guy on some western street beats the crap out of his girlfriend and nobody does anything, because `it`s their life, it`s their problem.` Of course everybody`s got to take this into consideration, both men and women, and each sex and each person must sacrifice (without becoming a slave) something for one another.
Learn something from nature, not just a book or a courtroom. Take a break from your work, go out to Yellow Stone Park and look at the ecosystems. Everything is working in harmony, and all components of the system, whether they are plants, animals or even the rocks are sacrificing some part of their freedom for the greater good.
We`ve got a lot to learn from each other (I can feel a comment coming). Be a creative soul for a moment and take a leap into your unknown and come to the realisation that life is not black and white as you say. There`re a gray system of beliefs out there which are a fusion of yours and Farangi Kush`s ideas.
Ideas and deep hatred filled criticism welcome from all.
Yours ever so lovingly.
Omar Phoenix!
Reply 94
Hmmm, the self proclaimed king of…whatever. It`s amusing to see how you have sung to yourself that you`ve won, especially as I never knew you were fighting with me. A certain loveable neighbour of Pakistan has a bad habit of doing that too. It`s good 2 know I`m getting up your skin. The truth is beginning to razor itself into your leather.
First of all, I have a job, so guess what, I can`t send massive essays onto the Internet, all the time. As for if I think I`m a budding artist, my dear matey, I`m not a budding artist, I`m a professional and have been selling my work since I was 17. Any way I can`t bear kissing my rear end any longer so I`ll get to the serious point:
I agree with you, women are not chattal. But here comes your first down fall. Your opinion on the equality of women is simply not sophisticated enough. Don`t worry, In the next 20 years, when the Amreeky constitutions evolve their laws, you will puppet along their ideas and maybe your thoughts then will coincide wit mine (wishful thinking). Women are not equal to men. I repeat, women are not equal to men. Can u read? Women are not equal to men, because men and women are DIFFERENT. However, neither sex is better than the other! I repeat, neither sex is better than the other. My favourite colour is blue, your favourite colour is yellow. We have different tastes in colour and they must be appreciated. But that does not imply my choice in colour as better than yours or vice versa. (Please don`t take this example literally).
Your second downfall. You`ve been reading too many books by the same author. Stop thinking in left, right, up, down, black or white. Get out of this extreme thinking that there are only two ways to life, the Mullah Omar way (whoever he is) or the `give me freedom or give me death` way. You`re just as bad as the person you label me with. My friend, you are an extremist (ouch).
For some reason you think that true `civilised freedom` is packaged along with sexual freedom (let me know if you wish me to elaborate) which will only come by when women can do anything they want to. Omar M, you seem to forget that we are living in a society and the concept of absolute freedom is pure 24-Karat gibberish. If you want true liberty, then go out to the jungles where you will not interact with your species. I would like to walk around butt naked, supporting my codpiece but I have to consider the other persons` feelings on this.
This bull about, `It`s my life` is destroying civilisation and dissolving the glue that once held us together, but because this process is so slow, we don`t realise it. Please do not confuse your full stomach, a pocket full of cash and economic stability with peace, freedom, and civility. This whole concept about `it`s my life` means that some guy on some western street beats the crap out of his girlfriend and nobody does anything, because `it`s their life, it`s their problem.` Of course everybody`s got to take this into consideration, both men and women, and each sex and each person must sacrifice (without becoming a slave) something for one another.
Learn something from nature, not just a book or a courtroom. Take a break from your work, go out to Yellow Stone Park and look at the ecosystems. Everything is working in harmony, and all components of the system, whether they are plants, animals or even the rocks are sacrificing some part of their freedom for the greater good.
We`ve got a lot to learn from each other (I can feel a comment coming). Be a creative soul for a moment and take a leap into your unknown and come to the realisation that life is not black and white as you say. There`re a gray system of beliefs out there which are a fusion of yours and Farangi Kush`s ideas.
Ideas and deep hatred filled criticism welcome from all.
Yours ever so lovingly.
Omar Phoenix!
#86 Posted by OMAR1974 on April 11, 2000 10:11:32 pm
It appears BOTH Farangi_Kush & Omarphoenix have been KUSHED by me ... the former unable to logically answer the 7 questions i posed earlier, and the latter, unable to fathom how to respond to
Principles that form the bedrock of progressive human existence w/o demonstrating himself to be an obscurantist, through and through committed to the enslavement of, and conceptual denial of equality to the fairer sex.
I don`t want pompous rhetoric O.P, i just want direct answers to my posts that remain unanswered, if you have anything further to say at all. Lets face it, you have a great deal more in common with Mulla Omar than anyone interested in gender equality, female emancipation and HUMAN RIGHTS.
OMAR MIRZA
Principles that form the bedrock of progressive human existence w/o demonstrating himself to be an obscurantist, through and through committed to the enslavement of, and conceptual denial of equality to the fairer sex.
I don`t want pompous rhetoric O.P, i just want direct answers to my posts that remain unanswered, if you have anything further to say at all. Lets face it, you have a great deal more in common with Mulla Omar than anyone interested in gender equality, female emancipation and HUMAN RIGHTS.
OMAR MIRZA
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