Famous Last Words or a Messiah in Khakis?
Salman Haider April 3, 2000
#91 Posted by krashid on April 21, 2000 10:34:05 am
Sadhana.
You are right in pointing the corruption in Indian Politics like Bofors scandal. I thnk RamaRao Government was involved in too much corruption (and may be one reason For Vajpayee to be elected).
But situation in Pakistan was much different. Corruption was not the reason for Government ouster. Although people were very much in favor of accountability, and before NAB the accountability bureau at the time of Nawaz Sharif was manipulated to crush People`s party of BB.
But still that was not the reason.
Then 13th amendment giving Nawaz Sharif absolute power over MP`s.
But still that was not the reason.
Then supreme court was stormed and chief justice of Supreme court sacked.
But still that was not the reason.
Then Governor rule was imposed in Sind to prevent two large parties from forming the Government.
But still that was not the reason.
Then press was subjugated when Nawaz Sharif stopped the Newsreel of largest Newspaper in Pakistan.
But still that was not the reason.
Then Nawaz Sharif tried to put his own man on Army, which is the most organized institution and Army revolted.
People saw all these, and gladly accepted the sacking of Nawaz Sharif Government.
What would happen if Army did not intervene? Nothing. People will continue to be subdued and suppressed and in a couple of months when the Nawaz Sharif Government would pass 15th amendment of Shariah law, all the interest of loans would have been pardoned and possibly Loan itself pardoned in the name of ``Qarze-Hasna`` (Good loan).
The Islamist would be free to have their day and Pakistan would be a second Afghanistan.
You can see why Pakistanis are politically conscious and silent majority at least sees a ray of hope.
I remember a film made at the time of ZA Bhutto made by Americans on Islamic Bomb. When a farmer from Punjab was asked about anti-Islam tilt of Bhutto and pro Islamic PNA movement, he retorted ``Islam Naal Ki Lena Hai`` meaning what I have to do with Islam, if Bhutto is giving us benefit.
The same most Pakistani can say ``Jumhuraiat Nal Ki Lena Hai``
It does not mean we are not aware of dangers of autocratic rule, but we are struggling for a new form of democracy where we can redress our problems, rather than some slogan which has only
given us more poverty, taken away the rights from us and put our money at the mercy of looters.
You are right in pointing the corruption in Indian Politics like Bofors scandal. I thnk RamaRao Government was involved in too much corruption (and may be one reason For Vajpayee to be elected).
But situation in Pakistan was much different. Corruption was not the reason for Government ouster. Although people were very much in favor of accountability, and before NAB the accountability bureau at the time of Nawaz Sharif was manipulated to crush People`s party of BB.
But still that was not the reason.
Then 13th amendment giving Nawaz Sharif absolute power over MP`s.
But still that was not the reason.
Then supreme court was stormed and chief justice of Supreme court sacked.
But still that was not the reason.
Then Governor rule was imposed in Sind to prevent two large parties from forming the Government.
But still that was not the reason.
Then press was subjugated when Nawaz Sharif stopped the Newsreel of largest Newspaper in Pakistan.
But still that was not the reason.
Then Nawaz Sharif tried to put his own man on Army, which is the most organized institution and Army revolted.
People saw all these, and gladly accepted the sacking of Nawaz Sharif Government.
What would happen if Army did not intervene? Nothing. People will continue to be subdued and suppressed and in a couple of months when the Nawaz Sharif Government would pass 15th amendment of Shariah law, all the interest of loans would have been pardoned and possibly Loan itself pardoned in the name of ``Qarze-Hasna`` (Good loan).
The Islamist would be free to have their day and Pakistan would be a second Afghanistan.
You can see why Pakistanis are politically conscious and silent majority at least sees a ray of hope.
I remember a film made at the time of ZA Bhutto made by Americans on Islamic Bomb. When a farmer from Punjab was asked about anti-Islam tilt of Bhutto and pro Islamic PNA movement, he retorted ``Islam Naal Ki Lena Hai`` meaning what I have to do with Islam, if Bhutto is giving us benefit.
The same most Pakistani can say ``Jumhuraiat Nal Ki Lena Hai``
It does not mean we are not aware of dangers of autocratic rule, but we are struggling for a new form of democracy where we can redress our problems, rather than some slogan which has only
given us more poverty, taken away the rights from us and put our money at the mercy of looters.
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#90 Posted by Observer on April 20, 2000 10:01:59 pm
Shanker #87
No, I tried but cannot seem to come up with an explanation. The way you have stated the situation, it would seem that given your premises, India just has the credibility whereas the Pakistanis and Pakistan lack it, or else, you know the answer but wish to see how miserably the rest of us, plebians and pedestrians, fail. Well, I have failed. Now out with the explanation, you tease!
May an Arab`s camel give you milk, and other good wishes to you.
Sincerely.
No, I tried but cannot seem to come up with an explanation. The way you have stated the situation, it would seem that given your premises, India just has the credibility whereas the Pakistanis and Pakistan lack it, or else, you know the answer but wish to see how miserably the rest of us, plebians and pedestrians, fail. Well, I have failed. Now out with the explanation, you tease!
May an Arab`s camel give you milk, and other good wishes to you.
Sincerely.
#89 Posted by sadna on April 20, 2000 10:01:59 pm
krashid #86
I don`t know enough about corruption in India to draw parallels(can someone else oblige?). I have heard that very often when the Congress PM needed money, he/she would threaten to dismiss a state government. Then the Chief Minister would travel to NDelhi with a suitcase(of money). I remember there was a big media uproar on one occasion when a Chief Minister in a similar position travelled to N.Delhi with a suitcase and the press even carried out public experiments to see if the alleged bribe amount would actually fit in a suitcase of that size. There was a lot of speculation about denomination of notes, weight of the suitcase etc etc.
Such an activity is likely to be continuing in some form or other and always will. The thing is how to keep it within limits and what limits? Most importantly, whose limits?
Would it not be better if public opinion and cover of law enabled institutions and a few honest people in them to go after the stolen wealth? Has the Army intervening and defining its own priorities in `accountability` been more of the same thing as those `dishonest` politicians? Is the NAB doing its job right or is it partisan? Who will police the Army or hold it accountable?
Sadhana
I don`t know enough about corruption in India to draw parallels(can someone else oblige?). I have heard that very often when the Congress PM needed money, he/she would threaten to dismiss a state government. Then the Chief Minister would travel to NDelhi with a suitcase(of money). I remember there was a big media uproar on one occasion when a Chief Minister in a similar position travelled to N.Delhi with a suitcase and the press even carried out public experiments to see if the alleged bribe amount would actually fit in a suitcase of that size. There was a lot of speculation about denomination of notes, weight of the suitcase etc etc.
Such an activity is likely to be continuing in some form or other and always will. The thing is how to keep it within limits and what limits? Most importantly, whose limits?
Would it not be better if public opinion and cover of law enabled institutions and a few honest people in them to go after the stolen wealth? Has the Army intervening and defining its own priorities in `accountability` been more of the same thing as those `dishonest` politicians? Is the NAB doing its job right or is it partisan? Who will police the Army or hold it accountable?
Sadhana
#88 Posted by sadna on April 20, 2000 11:11:45 am
shankar #83
If the point of Dilip D`Souza`s article was to underline the futility of showing attitude when the fate of ``1/5th of humanity`` is on the line, the point of my posting was that it is equally futile to trivialise the current Indo-Pak impasse as a question merely of personalities and childish behaviour of the current leaders.
There is no percentage in continuing to provide cover for what may be others` true agendas. We must definately talk, but with eyes open, not eyes shut.
According to me, there seems to be no limit to which military planners in Pakistan will not go to, even denuding their own nation, to achieve their true purpose: total accession. It may not be so, but what is gained in the interests of eventual peace by wilfully discounting the possibility?
Here is an excerpt from yesterday`s The Nation. I may be wrong, but I think the author sits in the National Security Council.
Apr 19 The Nation (www.nation.com.pk)
Tight-rope walking
Inayatullah
``...The international community has more or less, defacto, accepted the Indian occupied Kashmir as Indian territory as if the Line of Control is the international border between the two countries. We were dubbed as ``intruders`` during the Kargil conflict.
There are voices already within Pakistan for putting a halt on our supporting the Kashmiris` struggle and letting them carry on their efforts for freedom on their own. These so-called peaceniks advance the argument that Pakistan cannot afford to remain engaged with Kashmir. It must, they advise, cut down its defence expenditure, divert resources to development, and normalise relations with India. However plausible their points appear to be, the question is: Can Pakistan afford to delink itself with what India is doing in the occupied state and abdicate its historic obligations?
Are all the heart-rending sacrifices of the hapless Kashmiris to go waste? Will the people of Pakistan (and there are hundreds of thousands amongst them who have come from Kashmir) accept such abdication of responsibilities? Apart from the fact that the cause of the Kashmiris is just and that Pakistan has a strong case will any such decision not result in the weakening of Pakistan psychologically and materially? Can Pakistan survive if India gains total control of the very life line of Pakistan - the rivers that provide water to our arid areas? (Most of Pakistan is an arid zone dependent upon the water of the rivers). Will this not mean, in due course, Pakistan`s economic strangulation? And who will stop an emboldened India to crush the helpless Kashmiris with impunity as also to nibble away parts of Northern Areas and Azad Kashmir, after some time?...``
``...We cannot disown our friendship with our western neighbour. We have to stand with it and help it address its problems which include taking steps to improve its image and standing.
We have to avoid rash initiatives which may land us into trouble with powerful organised groups within Pakistan. Utmost care is needed in dealing with well-meaning Kashmir supporters. Handling of these matters - Kashmir, the jehadi elements, and relations with Afghanistan - is more important than even the accountability operations and grass-roots devolution....``
(end excerpts)
As far as third party mediation goes, realistically, I don`t think Pakistan has ever been happy with any third party who interceded in any Indo-Pak issue. I see so many articles and letters even today about the duplicity and self-serving nature of third parties. After Clinton`s visit, I thought I saw a report that the Pakistani govt is letting up slightly on its insistence on third party mediation.
Finally: When we want to talk, they want to fight. When they claim to want to talk, we claim to want to fight. May the day come when we are truly `in phase`.
Sadhana
If the point of Dilip D`Souza`s article was to underline the futility of showing attitude when the fate of ``1/5th of humanity`` is on the line, the point of my posting was that it is equally futile to trivialise the current Indo-Pak impasse as a question merely of personalities and childish behaviour of the current leaders.
There is no percentage in continuing to provide cover for what may be others` true agendas. We must definately talk, but with eyes open, not eyes shut.
According to me, there seems to be no limit to which military planners in Pakistan will not go to, even denuding their own nation, to achieve their true purpose: total accession. It may not be so, but what is gained in the interests of eventual peace by wilfully discounting the possibility?
Here is an excerpt from yesterday`s The Nation. I may be wrong, but I think the author sits in the National Security Council.
Apr 19 The Nation (www.nation.com.pk)
Tight-rope walking
Inayatullah
``...The international community has more or less, defacto, accepted the Indian occupied Kashmir as Indian territory as if the Line of Control is the international border between the two countries. We were dubbed as ``intruders`` during the Kargil conflict.
There are voices already within Pakistan for putting a halt on our supporting the Kashmiris` struggle and letting them carry on their efforts for freedom on their own. These so-called peaceniks advance the argument that Pakistan cannot afford to remain engaged with Kashmir. It must, they advise, cut down its defence expenditure, divert resources to development, and normalise relations with India. However plausible their points appear to be, the question is: Can Pakistan afford to delink itself with what India is doing in the occupied state and abdicate its historic obligations?
Are all the heart-rending sacrifices of the hapless Kashmiris to go waste? Will the people of Pakistan (and there are hundreds of thousands amongst them who have come from Kashmir) accept such abdication of responsibilities? Apart from the fact that the cause of the Kashmiris is just and that Pakistan has a strong case will any such decision not result in the weakening of Pakistan psychologically and materially? Can Pakistan survive if India gains total control of the very life line of Pakistan - the rivers that provide water to our arid areas? (Most of Pakistan is an arid zone dependent upon the water of the rivers). Will this not mean, in due course, Pakistan`s economic strangulation? And who will stop an emboldened India to crush the helpless Kashmiris with impunity as also to nibble away parts of Northern Areas and Azad Kashmir, after some time?...``
``...We cannot disown our friendship with our western neighbour. We have to stand with it and help it address its problems which include taking steps to improve its image and standing.
We have to avoid rash initiatives which may land us into trouble with powerful organised groups within Pakistan. Utmost care is needed in dealing with well-meaning Kashmir supporters. Handling of these matters - Kashmir, the jehadi elements, and relations with Afghanistan - is more important than even the accountability operations and grass-roots devolution....``
(end excerpts)
As far as third party mediation goes, realistically, I don`t think Pakistan has ever been happy with any third party who interceded in any Indo-Pak issue. I see so many articles and letters even today about the duplicity and self-serving nature of third parties. After Clinton`s visit, I thought I saw a report that the Pakistani govt is letting up slightly on its insistence on third party mediation.
Finally: When we want to talk, they want to fight. When they claim to want to talk, we claim to want to fight. May the day come when we are truly `in phase`.
Sadhana
#87 Posted by jay on April 20, 2000 10:23:59 am
DIALECTICAL CASTE
War of words over caste
By Our Special Correspondent
THIRUVANANTHAPURAM, APRIL 19. The inclusion of a new column on caste in the membership form by the Ernakulam district unit of the Communist Party of India CPI(M) has led to a war of words between the party and the BJP in Kerala.
While the State secretariat of the CPI(M) dismissed it as a faux pas, announced a probe into it and vowed to take action against those responsible for it, the BJP characterised it as the nadir of ideological bankruptcy of the CPI(M).
The State secretariat dismissed reports that the party had decided to seek the caste of its members as baseless and for propaganda purposes. It pointed out that according to the reports, the scrutiny form which the members had to fill while renewing membership sought the community in which they were born. It asserted that the CPI(M) had not taken any decision to find out the caste of its members. It was the State committee which prepared the membership scrutiny form and distributed it to the district committees for printing. There was no column on caste anywhere in it. No change was made in the scrutiny form which was in force since the birth of the party.
It said the workers viewed the membership records very seriously. The questions in the form related to name, address, age, educational qualifications, class of birth, year of joining the party, mass organisation, sex, profession and monthly income. It should also say whether the person was a full-time worker. No decision had been taken to include any other question in the form. It deplored the bid to misinterpret the issue and tarnish the party over it.
The State secretary of the BJP, Mr. M. S. Kumar, however, viewed the development as the nadir of ideological bankruptcy to which the CPI(M) had plummeted. He said that Marxism which was hailed as the vision of fraternity devoid of caste and religion had progressed to the level of Mr. Pinarayi Vijayan (State secretary of the CPI-M) asking the caste of its members. He wondered what the DYFI workers who sang the refrain ``there is no Hindu blood in us, there is no Muslim blood in us, there is no Christian blood in us, there is only human blood in us`` had to say about the development. ( Chowk is full of this type of people, striving for indo-pak peace, the accidental theory adherants: are welcome to join the marxists of kerala. )
War of words over caste
By Our Special Correspondent
THIRUVANANTHAPURAM, APRIL 19. The inclusion of a new column on caste in the membership form by the Ernakulam district unit of the Communist Party of India CPI(M) has led to a war of words between the party and the BJP in Kerala.
While the State secretariat of the CPI(M) dismissed it as a faux pas, announced a probe into it and vowed to take action against those responsible for it, the BJP characterised it as the nadir of ideological bankruptcy of the CPI(M).
The State secretariat dismissed reports that the party had decided to seek the caste of its members as baseless and for propaganda purposes. It pointed out that according to the reports, the scrutiny form which the members had to fill while renewing membership sought the community in which they were born. It asserted that the CPI(M) had not taken any decision to find out the caste of its members. It was the State committee which prepared the membership scrutiny form and distributed it to the district committees for printing. There was no column on caste anywhere in it. No change was made in the scrutiny form which was in force since the birth of the party.
It said the workers viewed the membership records very seriously. The questions in the form related to name, address, age, educational qualifications, class of birth, year of joining the party, mass organisation, sex, profession and monthly income. It should also say whether the person was a full-time worker. No decision had been taken to include any other question in the form. It deplored the bid to misinterpret the issue and tarnish the party over it.
The State secretary of the BJP, Mr. M. S. Kumar, however, viewed the development as the nadir of ideological bankruptcy to which the CPI(M) had plummeted. He said that Marxism which was hailed as the vision of fraternity devoid of caste and religion had progressed to the level of Mr. Pinarayi Vijayan (State secretary of the CPI-M) asking the caste of its members. He wondered what the DYFI workers who sang the refrain ``there is no Hindu blood in us, there is no Muslim blood in us, there is no Christian blood in us, there is only human blood in us`` had to say about the development. ( Chowk is full of this type of people, striving for indo-pak peace, the accidental theory adherants: are welcome to join the marxists of kerala. )
#86 Posted by shankar on April 20, 2000 10:23:59 am
The following is an excert from BBC News, S.Asia:
{{Pakistan`s military ruler, General Pervez Musharraf, has concluded talks in Tripoli with the Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi.
The Pakistani leader arrived in Libya earlier this week on the last leg of an exhaustive foreign travel itinerary.
Last week he attended a meeting in Havana of the Group of 77 developing nations and then went on to Egypt.
Libya`s official news agency said that General Musharraf and Colonel Gaddafi discussed regional and international issues in addition to bilateral relations.
General Musharraf stressed during the meeting ``the feelings of friendship felt by the people of Pakistan for the Libyans and their leader,`` the news agency said.
Seeking support
In Cairo, General Musharraf had meetings with the Secretary general of the Arab League, Esmat Abdel Maguid, and President Hosni Mubarak.
General Musharraf at Cairo`s Al Azhar mosque
He also met leading Egyptian businessmen.
In recent weeks, the Pakistani leader has been touring a number of countries - many of them Muslim nations - in South East Asia and the Middle East.
In most of these meetings he is believed to have briefed his hosts on political developments in his country and tried to win recognition of his regime.
He is also believed to have tried to strengthen trade links and win support for Pakistan`s position on nuclear proliferation and the Kashmir question.
Arab line
So far, there is little indication that he has achieved any of these goals.
None of the countries he has visited has publicly backed the military takeover or his country`s stance over Kashmir.
However, Pakistani diplomats are no doubt pleased that in Cairo Mr Meguid said that Islamabad had a legitimate right to possess nuclear weapons, and that it could not be accused of having aggressive intentions.
As for Kashmir, Mr Meguid said that General Musharraf had explained his country`s position on the subject and that the Arab League understood this position.
Gone are the days when Pakistan enjoyed the automatic support of these countries, whether individually or within forums such as the Arab League or the Organisation of Islamic Conference.}}
A couple of questions/observations:
1)The good general is spending an awful amount of time & foreign exchange running all over the world. No matter how optimistic a spin his staff put on the results of the tours, he doesnt seem to be getting a bang for his buck.
2) I`m sure he`s telling his fellow muslim brothers how the evil Indians ( read hindus) are killing ,raping & pillaging innocent Kashmiri muslims. All he`s getting is polite murmurs of empathy.
I`ve asked this question repeatedly. This genuinely puzzles me. Logic dictates that the Arabs should respond with the same outrage that Pakistanis have about Kashmir. Nothing would scare the BJP more than an Arab oil embargo. Just what hold does India have over the Arabs? Indian diplomacy just cannot be that effective. On the other hand, Pakistani diplomacy cant be that ineffective.
Could somebody help me out with this?!
{{Pakistan`s military ruler, General Pervez Musharraf, has concluded talks in Tripoli with the Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi.
The Pakistani leader arrived in Libya earlier this week on the last leg of an exhaustive foreign travel itinerary.
Last week he attended a meeting in Havana of the Group of 77 developing nations and then went on to Egypt.
Libya`s official news agency said that General Musharraf and Colonel Gaddafi discussed regional and international issues in addition to bilateral relations.
General Musharraf stressed during the meeting ``the feelings of friendship felt by the people of Pakistan for the Libyans and their leader,`` the news agency said.
Seeking support
In Cairo, General Musharraf had meetings with the Secretary general of the Arab League, Esmat Abdel Maguid, and President Hosni Mubarak.
General Musharraf at Cairo`s Al Azhar mosque
He also met leading Egyptian businessmen.
In recent weeks, the Pakistani leader has been touring a number of countries - many of them Muslim nations - in South East Asia and the Middle East.
In most of these meetings he is believed to have briefed his hosts on political developments in his country and tried to win recognition of his regime.
He is also believed to have tried to strengthen trade links and win support for Pakistan`s position on nuclear proliferation and the Kashmir question.
Arab line
So far, there is little indication that he has achieved any of these goals.
None of the countries he has visited has publicly backed the military takeover or his country`s stance over Kashmir.
However, Pakistani diplomats are no doubt pleased that in Cairo Mr Meguid said that Islamabad had a legitimate right to possess nuclear weapons, and that it could not be accused of having aggressive intentions.
As for Kashmir, Mr Meguid said that General Musharraf had explained his country`s position on the subject and that the Arab League understood this position.
Gone are the days when Pakistan enjoyed the automatic support of these countries, whether individually or within forums such as the Arab League or the Organisation of Islamic Conference.}}
A couple of questions/observations:
1)The good general is spending an awful amount of time & foreign exchange running all over the world. No matter how optimistic a spin his staff put on the results of the tours, he doesnt seem to be getting a bang for his buck.
2) I`m sure he`s telling his fellow muslim brothers how the evil Indians ( read hindus) are killing ,raping & pillaging innocent Kashmiri muslims. All he`s getting is polite murmurs of empathy.
I`ve asked this question repeatedly. This genuinely puzzles me. Logic dictates that the Arabs should respond with the same outrage that Pakistanis have about Kashmir. Nothing would scare the BJP more than an Arab oil embargo. Just what hold does India have over the Arabs? Indian diplomacy just cannot be that effective. On the other hand, Pakistani diplomacy cant be that ineffective.
Could somebody help me out with this?!
#85 Posted by krashid on April 20, 2000 10:23:59 am
Sadhna #85
BB was more democratic than NS.
The 13th and 14th amendment was passed by Nawaz Sharif to consolidate his grip on power in his second stint in power.
To give you more insight into politics of Pakistan, the same faces in different parties are there to not only protect their interest, but to loot the exchequer and this loot does not trickle down to common man but is rotten in Foreign banks.
After the Atomic Bomb blast, when there was a risk of flight of foreign exchange to foreign countries, the Government freezed the foreign currency account. But it made sure that foreign exchange of decision makers are already out of country at the time of freezing of foreign currency account.
That is why it is surprising for most people that even diehard democratic people want a new form of democracy in which the interest of common man is safe guarded.
BB was more democratic than NS.
The 13th and 14th amendment was passed by Nawaz Sharif to consolidate his grip on power in his second stint in power.
To give you more insight into politics of Pakistan, the same faces in different parties are there to not only protect their interest, but to loot the exchequer and this loot does not trickle down to common man but is rotten in Foreign banks.
After the Atomic Bomb blast, when there was a risk of flight of foreign exchange to foreign countries, the Government freezed the foreign currency account. But it made sure that foreign exchange of decision makers are already out of country at the time of freezing of foreign currency account.
That is why it is surprising for most people that even diehard democratic people want a new form of democracy in which the interest of common man is safe guarded.
#84 Posted by sadna on April 19, 2000 11:10:48 pm
krashid #82
Thanks for the clarification. However, staying with the 13th Amendment example, again I must ask, is there unanimity in Pakistan that it is better for Pakistan if the utility of its provisions are re-examined?
BB,NS misused it. Will not someone in future misuse it too? Its realistic to expect rulers, civilian or military to be self-serving, why would anyone venture into such a miserable business of bearing responsibility for millions of people otherwise?
There is an Anti-Defection law in India, too, which was introduced in the 1980s` to solve various identified problems, and now is being reviewed for fine-tuning/scrapping for solving of various other problems. Now if the Indian public or media are not vigilant, measures may be passed that only promote the interests of legislators.
Again, what I want to point out is :
1. A provision or law must be examined in light of the longterm national interest. Is it so difficult to identify longterm national interest in this case at least? Suspending all laws will not work beyond a point in time after which new problems will arise.
2. The best way to avoid self-serving collusion between vested interests whether civilian or military against overall national interest is have open debate to bring out all aspects of any matter.
Sadhana
Thanks for the clarification. However, staying with the 13th Amendment example, again I must ask, is there unanimity in Pakistan that it is better for Pakistan if the utility of its provisions are re-examined?
BB,NS misused it. Will not someone in future misuse it too? Its realistic to expect rulers, civilian or military to be self-serving, why would anyone venture into such a miserable business of bearing responsibility for millions of people otherwise?
There is an Anti-Defection law in India, too, which was introduced in the 1980s` to solve various identified problems, and now is being reviewed for fine-tuning/scrapping for solving of various other problems. Now if the Indian public or media are not vigilant, measures may be passed that only promote the interests of legislators.
Again, what I want to point out is :
1. A provision or law must be examined in light of the longterm national interest. Is it so difficult to identify longterm national interest in this case at least? Suspending all laws will not work beyond a point in time after which new problems will arise.
2. The best way to avoid self-serving collusion between vested interests whether civilian or military against overall national interest is have open debate to bring out all aspects of any matter.
Sadhana
#83 Posted by ai on April 19, 2000 11:10:48 pm
INDIAN PROPAGANDA PRIVATIZED
The ZEE TV commercial with a Pakistani general with the green and white sash is pretty nasty and funny as well. The humour of it is undeniable. More Pakistanis are probably amused than Indians.
The ZEE TV commercial with a Pakistani general with the green and white sash is pretty nasty and funny as well. The humour of it is undeniable. More Pakistanis are probably amused than Indians.
#82 Posted by shankar on April 19, 2000 11:10:48 pm
sadna
post#80
So,what`s youre point?
The ISI has been regularly been blamed by India as the main culprit for causing trouble for India. Similarly, Pakistanis blame RAW for any trouble within their country. I guess we substitute RAW & ISI depending on what side of the border we belong.
Is that the reason we should stop talking to each other? The only way out of the deadlock is to keep talking to each other.
The Pak govt has repeatedly proclaimed their intention to resume talks. India uses the excuse of terrorism to refuse talks. I think thats fundamentally stupid. Refusing to talk only makes terrorism stronger. Its time to put that ``betrayal`` syndrome of Kargil to rest. India has milked it to the max.
Why is India refusing 3rd party mediation? The real answer (IMHO) is because they will then have to concede to give up Kashmir eventually.
Someone rightly said that now is the time to ``buy stock``, when Pakistan`s stock is low. Refusing to talk is stupid.
post#80
So,what`s youre point?
The ISI has been regularly been blamed by India as the main culprit for causing trouble for India. Similarly, Pakistanis blame RAW for any trouble within their country. I guess we substitute RAW & ISI depending on what side of the border we belong.
Is that the reason we should stop talking to each other? The only way out of the deadlock is to keep talking to each other.
The Pak govt has repeatedly proclaimed their intention to resume talks. India uses the excuse of terrorism to refuse talks. I think thats fundamentally stupid. Refusing to talk only makes terrorism stronger. Its time to put that ``betrayal`` syndrome of Kargil to rest. India has milked it to the max.
Why is India refusing 3rd party mediation? The real answer (IMHO) is because they will then have to concede to give up Kashmir eventually.
Someone rightly said that now is the time to ``buy stock``, when Pakistan`s stock is low. Refusing to talk is stupid.
#81 Posted by krashid on April 19, 2000 12:21:41 am
Sadhna #78
To give you a more clear picture.
13th amendment takes away the right of a member to vote against any decision by his party leader.
That was good for Benazir Bhutto, who put away all shame and supported this so that his few members in parliament could not desert her. It was good for Nawaz Sharif which gives him absolute control over his elected partymen and since he was elected with 2/3rd majority (although real estimate is around 18-20 percent voting in election) he could do anything.
The people had redress in the form of Supreme Court,and a hearing was underway when supreme court was stormed by Nawaz and his cronies. And an alternative Supreme court with Nawas Sharif`s cronies was created which sacked the Chief Justice of sitting Supreme Court.
The president had power to sack the Government, so it had introduced another amendment which approved by two third majority to take away all the powers of president.
When the Government stopped the Newsreel of Jang Newspaper and making fake cases against ``Jang Newspaper`` Jang fought it.
What alternative the people had.
Muslim League cannot rebel against its leader.
Alternative was peoples Party which itself was trying to save its leader and so were reluctant to take any stand.
There was a problem in Sind. So Governor rule was imposed and Anti terrorist Courts were put in for summary punishment.
To give you a more clear picture.
13th amendment takes away the right of a member to vote against any decision by his party leader.
That was good for Benazir Bhutto, who put away all shame and supported this so that his few members in parliament could not desert her. It was good for Nawaz Sharif which gives him absolute control over his elected partymen and since he was elected with 2/3rd majority (although real estimate is around 18-20 percent voting in election) he could do anything.
The people had redress in the form of Supreme Court,and a hearing was underway when supreme court was stormed by Nawaz and his cronies. And an alternative Supreme court with Nawas Sharif`s cronies was created which sacked the Chief Justice of sitting Supreme Court.
The president had power to sack the Government, so it had introduced another amendment which approved by two third majority to take away all the powers of president.
When the Government stopped the Newsreel of Jang Newspaper and making fake cases against ``Jang Newspaper`` Jang fought it.
What alternative the people had.
Muslim League cannot rebel against its leader.
Alternative was peoples Party which itself was trying to save its leader and so were reluctant to take any stand.
There was a problem in Sind. So Governor rule was imposed and Anti terrorist Courts were put in for summary punishment.
#80 Posted by yj on April 18, 2000 10:24:35 pm
TEMPORAL #&$
I wanted to write ``demanding`` in a post on another board but ended up writing, exacting, stringent, persnickety, meticulous and (fastidious, exact, scrupulous, finicky, fussy, particular, punctilious, perfectionist,... ad infinitum).
I guess we all have `sacred cows`.
Good bye friend.
N.B. If you ever feel like writing please contact ``Khayyam@Graphic-Designer.com``
I wanted to write ``demanding`` in a post on another board but ended up writing, exacting, stringent, persnickety, meticulous and (fastidious, exact, scrupulous, finicky, fussy, particular, punctilious, perfectionist,... ad infinitum).
I guess we all have `sacred cows`.
Good bye friend.
N.B. If you ever feel like writing please contact ``Khayyam@Graphic-Designer.com``
#79 Posted by sadna on April 18, 2000 10:24:35 pm
shankar #77
This article from the Deccan Chronicle, Wednesday Apr 19 merits some attention.
(www.samachar.com, listed major newspapers, latest articles)
Sadhana
ISI plans `no-fly` zone in Kashmir for IAF aircraft
New Delhi: Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence has chalked out a new 11-point strategy, including establishing a ``no-fly zone`` within the Kashmir region, to step up militancy in Jammu and Kashmir. Intelligence sources said this decision was taken during a meeting held in Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir in the last week of March. It was attended by Pakistan Army regulars, ISI officials and Kashmiri militant outfits, including the Lashkar-e-Toiba, Hizb-ul-Mujahideen and Al-Badr.
The new strategy has been conveyed to all the militant groups operating in Kashmir.The ISI has directed the terrorists to create ``no-fly zones`` in the Kashmir region to keep Indian Air Force fighters and helicopters out of that airspace, intelligence sources said.
Any Indian aircraft violating the ``no-fly zone`` would be shot down by anti-aircraft guns, the new strategy reveals. According to the new plan, the ISI will provide arms and ammunition and long-range guns and mortar as per geographical area requirements.
The ISI is now paying a lot of attention to the collection of information about the Indian security forces - on deployment, operation, modus operandi and movements, intelligence agencies sources said.
The militants have been asked to send intelligence inputs to their high command immediately. The ISI has decided to update the mode of training provided to terrorists in various parts of Pakistan on the basis of intelligence inputs on the modus operandi of the Indian security forces so that there is always a surprise element in their attacks, sources said.
The 11-point strategy advises the militants to be flexible and change their operational strategy to suit the situation.i Now that security around Army installations has been beefed up, the militants have been directed that ``all actions should be far from built-up areas.``
Apart from dwelling upon new ways for the militant outfits to add more teeth to their firepower, the ISI has also prescribed fresh guidelines to the militants to restrict themselves to Islamic religious decorum in their day-to-day functioning.
During talks and lectures, they have to adopt Islamic philosophy and also keep a watch on the activities of other Islamic institutions, reads one of the 11 instructions forwarded to Kashmiri terrorists.
The militants have been also asked to renew their bid to win the sympathy of the Kashmiri Muslims. The militants had lost acceptance among Kashmiris to a great extent ever since normalcy was restored in the Valley.
All the militants have to establish good and lasting relations with the ``Islamic people of Jammu and Kashmir,`` says the new strategy. It adds that during action against Indian forces, all principles mentioned in Islamic jehad should be remembered and applied.
This article from the Deccan Chronicle, Wednesday Apr 19 merits some attention.
(www.samachar.com, listed major newspapers, latest articles)
Sadhana
ISI plans `no-fly` zone in Kashmir for IAF aircraft
New Delhi: Pakistan`s Inter-Services Intelligence has chalked out a new 11-point strategy, including establishing a ``no-fly zone`` within the Kashmir region, to step up militancy in Jammu and Kashmir. Intelligence sources said this decision was taken during a meeting held in Pakistan-Occupied Kashmir in the last week of March. It was attended by Pakistan Army regulars, ISI officials and Kashmiri militant outfits, including the Lashkar-e-Toiba, Hizb-ul-Mujahideen and Al-Badr.
The new strategy has been conveyed to all the militant groups operating in Kashmir.The ISI has directed the terrorists to create ``no-fly zones`` in the Kashmir region to keep Indian Air Force fighters and helicopters out of that airspace, intelligence sources said.
Any Indian aircraft violating the ``no-fly zone`` would be shot down by anti-aircraft guns, the new strategy reveals. According to the new plan, the ISI will provide arms and ammunition and long-range guns and mortar as per geographical area requirements.
The ISI is now paying a lot of attention to the collection of information about the Indian security forces - on deployment, operation, modus operandi and movements, intelligence agencies sources said.
The militants have been asked to send intelligence inputs to their high command immediately. The ISI has decided to update the mode of training provided to terrorists in various parts of Pakistan on the basis of intelligence inputs on the modus operandi of the Indian security forces so that there is always a surprise element in their attacks, sources said.
The 11-point strategy advises the militants to be flexible and change their operational strategy to suit the situation.i Now that security around Army installations has been beefed up, the militants have been directed that ``all actions should be far from built-up areas.``
Apart from dwelling upon new ways for the militant outfits to add more teeth to their firepower, the ISI has also prescribed fresh guidelines to the militants to restrict themselves to Islamic religious decorum in their day-to-day functioning.
During talks and lectures, they have to adopt Islamic philosophy and also keep a watch on the activities of other Islamic institutions, reads one of the 11 instructions forwarded to Kashmiri terrorists.
The militants have been also asked to renew their bid to win the sympathy of the Kashmiri Muslims. The militants had lost acceptance among Kashmiris to a great extent ever since normalcy was restored in the Valley.
All the militants have to establish good and lasting relations with the ``Islamic people of Jammu and Kashmir,`` says the new strategy. It adds that during action against Indian forces, all principles mentioned in Islamic jehad should be remembered and applied.
#78 Posted by temporal on April 18, 2000 5:17:11 pm
shankar # 77:
Yaar is siyasi hamaam maiN sab naNgay haiN.
Generally these politicians are full of it. I believe if we replace these four with any other four establishment figures currently in power, the results would be similar. They are in a invisible strait jacket. Their careers could be ruined. Oh such hypocricy!
Can anything be done about it? Yes.
Who will do it? The moderates on either side.
What are the chances of success? Slim by a long shot. But worth a try. Or we will end up glowing in the dark: if we survive!
rgds
t
Yaar is siyasi hamaam maiN sab naNgay haiN.
Generally these politicians are full of it. I believe if we replace these four with any other four establishment figures currently in power, the results would be similar. They are in a invisible strait jacket. Their careers could be ruined. Oh such hypocricy!
Can anything be done about it? Yes.
Who will do it? The moderates on either side.
What are the chances of success? Slim by a long shot. But worth a try. Or we will end up glowing in the dark: if we survive!
rgds
t
#77 Posted by sadna on April 18, 2000 10:46:05 am
krashid #77
You say `How?`. Very good question.
Let us first restore the sequence of cart and horse. If the Pakistani common man has identified at least one of his fundamental problems, shouldnot his government find a way to remove the source of the problem(13th Amendment in this example). After all, Gen. PM claims to be acting according to the wishes of Pakistanis, not the other way around.
Now, if the public talks enough about genuine longterm solutions, then Pervez Musharraf and his regime may find it necessary to respond to the `dynamics` by rearranging his priorities, or even constituting say, a Constitutional review committee, in exactly the same way he responded to the public apprehensions about Indian designs by tailoring his foreign policy.
Secondly, again with longterm good of the country and the inevitable need for national consensus brought into focus by the public, Pervez Musharraf and the Army may feel the need to talk of national reconciliation and mutual cooperation in governance, which has to happen some day anyway, you will admit?
We have to accept this basic fact: even messiahs limit their scope of action to what circumstances and their own impulses force them to do. Hence even the brightest visionaries are only as good as the demands made on them. And the reality is that Gandhis and Jinnahs are scarce on the ground these days.
Finally, your question, what is to prevent Constitutional changes in future? Who can say? What prevents any leader from doing anything anywhere in the world(the US 2nd Amendment is all about this). However, donot discount the power of precedents to guide the direction of future events(I`m sure you donot).
Also, a rehashed example: if murders have always happened and will always happen as long as humanity exists, does it mean we can do away with law and punishment for murder?
Sadhana
You say `How?`. Very good question.
Let us first restore the sequence of cart and horse. If the Pakistani common man has identified at least one of his fundamental problems, shouldnot his government find a way to remove the source of the problem(13th Amendment in this example). After all, Gen. PM claims to be acting according to the wishes of Pakistanis, not the other way around.
Now, if the public talks enough about genuine longterm solutions, then Pervez Musharraf and his regime may find it necessary to respond to the `dynamics` by rearranging his priorities, or even constituting say, a Constitutional review committee, in exactly the same way he responded to the public apprehensions about Indian designs by tailoring his foreign policy.
Secondly, again with longterm good of the country and the inevitable need for national consensus brought into focus by the public, Pervez Musharraf and the Army may feel the need to talk of national reconciliation and mutual cooperation in governance, which has to happen some day anyway, you will admit?
We have to accept this basic fact: even messiahs limit their scope of action to what circumstances and their own impulses force them to do. Hence even the brightest visionaries are only as good as the demands made on them. And the reality is that Gandhis and Jinnahs are scarce on the ground these days.
Finally, your question, what is to prevent Constitutional changes in future? Who can say? What prevents any leader from doing anything anywhere in the world(the US 2nd Amendment is all about this). However, donot discount the power of precedents to guide the direction of future events(I`m sure you donot).
Also, a rehashed example: if murders have always happened and will always happen as long as humanity exists, does it mean we can do away with law and punishment for murder?
Sadhana
#76 Posted by shankar on April 18, 2000 10:00:34 am
Temporal #69
Many thanks for posting that article.
I blame the BJP`s foreign policy for this. This is the time to start talking to their Pakistani counterparts, not ignoring them. I think the whole subcontinent is a laughing stock in the eyes of the world.
Many thanks for posting that article.
I blame the BJP`s foreign policy for this. This is the time to start talking to their Pakistani counterparts, not ignoring them. I think the whole subcontinent is a laughing stock in the eyes of the world.
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