Different Eagles, Same Genus

To Sadna on CIA`s involvement in Pakistan

I am not sure as to what you are referrin to in connection with. CIA`s involvement in Iran is a documented fact no doubt ... especially with regards to 1950s return to Monarchy .

However if you are pointing towards the CIA involvement in 1977 ... there is no doubt in my mind or of anyone with a neutral sense of history ... (a friend of mine met Henry Kissinger 3 months ago at West Point and had a long conversation about Pakistani Politics) ..... that USA was involved in the coup especially when the timing of the coup was so suspicious .... and the break down of the talks and the sudden arrival of new demands by the opposition dont really discredit the theory either you know. We knew for a fact that the PNA was paid by the CIA ..... the reason was simple .... Pakistan, being the Chairman of the Islamic summit, had pivotal importance in the US`s list of alliances and US would not want it to go to the other side ..... even Zia after the coup .... said in clear words ``The coup was necessary because you see Pakistan was in danger of abandoning its alliance with US and joining the Soviet Block`` ...

he stated this in front of the Media and it is documented!

Ofcourse in reality Pakistan was no where near joining the SOviet Block but was just going to abandon US ties... and become Non Aligned which itself might have been just to tell the US that Pakistan is a sovereign country for we all Know Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was a courageous man .....

He was like little David pitted against twin Goliaths of the WORLD the Soviet Union and the US ... and US got him first !!!!!!!!

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

JIYE BHUTTO

PAKISTAN ZINDABAD

POST 1971

Sahibzada Qaqub did told a lot of Pakistanis during his first ambassadorship to the US in the 1970`s that the country was saved by the skin of its teeth - rather the prayers of ancestors (bazurgo`n ki duwai`n). Of course he blamed the entire matter to ``that drunk and lunatic who should have been locked up in a lunatic assylum`` (Yahya Khan). What worries me more today is that Musharraf and his colleagues are exhibiting the same symptoms like Yahya Khan - crazyness and false bravado if not alcohol...

PAF IN 1971

Apparently the PAF was no longer very efficient in 1971. Equipment from different places including the Chinese `disposable migs` had created a lot of problems. Also the bengali factor was playing in specially after the Rashid Minhas episode. Lot of intelligence information has been transferred to India.

The more important reason appears to have been that Air Marshal Rahim had no clear goals as there was no direction from the GHQ. I personally believe he also felt the need for conserving the airforce in case there was a determined attempt by Indira Gandhi to dismantle partition once and for all. The latter possibility was certainly live after the Indian Cabinet apparently issued orders to the effect that the destruction of Pakistani armored forces and the airforce be implimented. There was apparently creditable intelligence that IAF squadrons in the east were being transferred to the West and preparations for moving troops as well. The Nixon tilt and and the fleet movement was infact triggered by this decision. Information regarding this must have been transferred to GOP by the Pentagon. We do know that Air Marshal Rahim was usually dead drunk in the evenings and there is a reported episode that a drunken Rahim could do nothing more than throw an ashtray at a pilot hauled in for refusing to fly a night mission. So much for the subcontinental version of the Israeli Airforce. We have to wait for the release of the Hamoodur Rahman Commission report, if it ever sees the light of day, for any details on this..Also please do note that the number of Mirages was only 24 and the best use would certainly have been to blunt a massed armoured attack had one begun to emerge...I also suspect that they were short of spares and ordinance.

bd #114

I am sorry to correct you, but in early 1980s salary levels in Indian Airforce were not better than that for atleast IITs. ( I would know, I was making my career choice at that time). Basic salary of IAS, IES and defence forces was same.

Government doctors earned almost same basic salary. However, saving capability of IAS and Railways staff with similar qualifications was much more (because of housing, free staff, travel etc). Even in those days, major difference could be seen in starting salaries of governemnt and private sectors.

Regards

anarayan #109: Your comments are well taken. One does not need to be an aerouautical engineer to realize that the F-104 would be terrible in a dogfight. It is basically a missile with extremely small wings attached to it. It lacks the most essential capability required in a dogfight, i.e. maneuverability. It has one of the larges turning radius of any aircraft I have ever seen. I have personal experience with the Mig series of aircraft, and I can safely say that not only a Mig-21, but even a Mig-17 would run circles around an F-104 in close combat. Infact, any half decent fighter would run circles around it. Because of this, I have always felt that the, ``F`` designation should not have been used with the F-104, since it really is not suited for the classic fighter role. The PAF realized these limitations.

``The F-104 was capable of very high-speed, and a terrific rate of climb, but its turning capability was severely limited. It had to achieve complete surprise to accomplish a successful attack. The enemy had radar cover above 5000 ft. Even if the target maneuvered slightly, the F-104 had to break off. Several exercises were conducted under these conditions, and the subsonic aircraft operating under radar cover were found able to easily defend themselves. The combat potential of the Starfighter, under these conditions was therefore questionable.`` (Wg. Cdr. Aftab Alam at www.pakdef.com/f104s.html)

In that sense, your assessment, as well as the assessment of the USAF (and the assessment of the PAF) on this account is very accurate; the F-104, for all its state of the art capabilitites, is a terrible fighter in the traditional fighter roles. That is why the PAF did not use it as a traditional fighter. The F-86 Sabres filled that role. Later on that role was filled by Chines MIg-19s (to some extent), and it is currently filled by F-7s (souped up Mig-21s) and F-16s (which are multi-role).

The F-104 however did have some unmatched features during the 65 timeframe.

``Pakistan was the first country in Asia to induct a Mach 2 aircraft into its airforce. While most countries in Europe were still flying subsonic aircraft.`` (www.pakdef.com)

One point that needs to kept in mind is that any USAF evaluations of state of the art aircraft, is made in comparison with the other state of the aircraft available to the USAF. Many of the, ``rejected`` USAF aircraft would be welcomed into most air forces. In many cases, other countries get aircraft which the USAF is not interested in. That however does not mean these aircraft are not up to the mark. It just means the USAF has better options available.

In the 65 war, F-104s on their own would not have been able to do much, since they would be useless at low altitudes and in dogfights. At the same time, the F-86s on their own may not have been able to hold their own against Indian aircraft, at high altitudes.

``Besides the F-104, the PAF had about 102 F-86F aircraft of 1952 vintage. Compared with the relatively modern Hawker Hunter Mk VI with an engine of 10,000lb, the F-86 with only 6000lb thrust was grossly under-powered. Some Pakistani pilots in the UK had flown the Hunter and the Gnat and they reckoned that the F-86F did not stand a chance against the either the Hunter or the Gnat in air combat.`` (www.pakdef.com)

However, the PAF was able to achieve quite a bit of success with the F-104/F-86 combination; F-104s controlling the mid to high altitudes, and F-86s fighting at low altitudes.

``The F-104 by controlling the sky at medium and high altitude, had reduced the workload for the F-86 `s to the extent that the disparity in numbers was manageable. The F-86`s could now hold their own against the enemy at low altitude.`` (www.pakdef.com)

Anytime an air force is able to get a hold of an aircraft that is ahead of its time in one or two areas, it can gain a big advantage (provided it uses the aircraft correctly) over its opposition. The F-104, though terrible in dogfights, was in its own league in speed, ceiling, and acceleration. I had a chance to discuss this with an ex-PAF pilot who made some of the strategic decisions for the PAF in 65. He told me that the PAF only realized the actual usefulness of the F-104 by the end of the war, since there was no roadmap to follow for F-104s being used in this kind of combat. He suggested that the by the end of the war, the PAF realized that it could have even used the F-104 for interdiction missions inside India!!

On the whole, the F-104 was terrible in dogfights, specially at low altitudes. It was also a very dangerous aircraft. In the movie, ``The right stuff,`` Chuck Yeager goes into an inverted spin (any pilot`s nightmare; the new aircraft have in built systems to ensure that they never go into inverted spins), and is barely able to get out of it. So the F-104 could have been the aircraft that conquered Yeager; the epitome of test pilots. The PAF was well aware of the dangerous nature of this aircraft, and operated it well within these limitations.

``The J-79-11A engine was sophisticated and complicated. It had inlet guide vanes in front of the engine, and a variable nozzle system in the rear. These were liable to fail...Only one F-104 was lost during training - a training air combat sortie - in which Flt Lt Asghar `pitched up`, and went into a spin. He ejected safely at high speed, and received major bruises.`` (www.pakdef.com).

Unlike the F-86 or the B-52 or the F-16, the F-104 never became a national or international, ``bestseller`` for the USAF. It completely lost its value, once other more manueverable aircraft were able to match its acceleration and speed. On the whole I would agree with you that in the long run it was an unsuccessful design. However its acceleration, speed and ceiling were unmatched by any aircraft during the 65 days (an inside aviation joke: ``there is a big difference between an American mach 2, and a Soviet mach 2.`` So a Mig-21 mach 2 is quite a bit different from an F-104 mach 2). And during that short period, I think it played an extremely important role in the 65 Indo-Pak conflict.

Re: RSaxena #112

Dear sir, madam, or otherwise,

firstly, my post was simply a factual REPLY to satyavadi`s comment on Pakistan`s cricket, and didn`t necessarily require you to comment on a personal level. Since I didn`t really see a more intellectual response (if you`d like a discussion on Pakistan`s focus on economic growth in the past 50 years as compared to India`s, we could do that seperately quite easily), and I do realize that the cricketing grapes indeed do seem sour, but please do take it with a pinch of salt (which you could actually always go make).

Now, as far as the statement on ``locating that drop of blood`` is concerned, I`m confused. I was trying to agree there with satyavadi on the notion that we should all - whether Indians or Pakistanis - be proud of being a part of the Indus civilization. Perhaps you should read my post again, or have somebody read it out to you. Slowly.

And as far as democratically electing BJP, fine choice people had at the time: a mosque-razing Congress party or a Gandhi-assasinating BJP?

Now see what you made me do.

Sherdil #111:

Blame it all on India (RAW). This is the all too familiar predilection of Pakistanis. I will not comment too much on this, lest the Indo-Pak name calling begin again on Chowk.

Your comparison of the Jehadists with the BJP/RSS

is totally flawed. The BJP has never called for Hindu Raj in India. It has never disputed the secular constitution of India and even on the Ram Mandir issue, it ``will explore all legal and constitutional means to build a temple at the disputed site``(there is a similar statement on the BJP site-this is not an exact reproduction). I think exploring legal and constitutional means to

cater to a demand of a sizeable chunk of the population is not a bad thing.

And you compare them with the Jihadists who donot recognize national boundaries -leave alone the oft-mutilated constitution of Pakistan, and who proudly recruit people to carry out terrorist activities all over ``Allah`s kingdom``, from Chechnya, to Xinjiang, from the US to India. But then the Musharraf govt does commend (and use) these forces, maybe thats why you worked out the analogy between the Indian govt (BJP) and the Pakistani Govt (supporting and supported by the Jehadists).

YLH:::

Who is the one who is attacking ? and shouting?

A couple thoughts.

1.They say losers usually shout a lot because they wanna be heard.

2.Modesty is a virtue -even in this age and time.

Regards,

Satyavadi

ylh

This may lend some perspective(very important in understanding significance of history)

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html

The CIA in Iran.

(Report on a secret history of the CIA`s engineering the overthrow of an elected government in Iran in 1953 and reinstating the Shah, a sequence of events that led to the revolution in 1979)

Is similar information available on the CIA involvement in Pakistani politics?

Sadhana

Wow .. the star fighter has taken quite a beating here ... let me remind all people here that lOCKHEED Starfighter is an all time classic fighter Plane. With its 65000 plus ceiling and Mach 2.0+ it is was envied by many of its time. As a matter of fact in many of the Memos of Indian Airforce, the ``fearless`` commanders of IAF have emphasized strongly on the Advantage Pakistan has over Dehli with its acquisition of F 104s .... Some of my Indian friends have come up with a few ridiculous stories about IAF actually shooting down F 104s ..... The truth of that Allah knows best ... but as far as the comparison between Mig 21 and F104 starfighter goes ... you have keep in mind a few things .... Mig 21 in use today is the upgraded version of the Mig 21 of 1965 .... However the Mig 21 of 1965 was by far no match of the F104 Starfighter....In a comparison of both air crafts we come across the following facts (AGAIN I AM NO INDIAN WILL BE ABLE TO REFUTE THESE CLAIMS) .... let us talk about only f104 A and B

the supposedly most inferior and the one Pakistan had ..... Lockheed gives the following information for F 104 ...

Wing Span: 6,68 ms

Length: 16,69 ms

Height: 4,11 ms

Mass to emptiness: 6 760 kg

Offensive Load : 3 400 kg

Speed at sea level: Mach 1,2

Maximal Speed in altitude: Mach 2,2

Convenient ceiling: 17 680 ms

Range/autonomy : 3 950 km

Armament: 20 mms M61A-1 Vulcan Gun, AIM-9 Sidewinders missiles, air to sea Kormoran

missiles, air to air Aspide missiles, bombs, rockets, Recco pod.

Now compare this to Mikoyan Gurevich`s info on Mig 21 ... for those of you Indians who didnt know Mikoyan Gurevich is the original manufacturer of the Mig 21 .....hence the name Mig ...

Wing span 7.15 m length 15.1

MAx speed 2.15 Mach

Max range 1100KM

Armament one 23 mm twin barrel cannon

1500 kg of load .. aphid missiles4AA *2 air to air

Ok so let us now compare .....

The F 104 outflies the Mig 21 in speed by far ...

its ceiling is much higher .......

Compare the range of its strike without refuelling ... its phenomenal compared to the Mig 21 ...

3950 km to 1100 KM ??? and we have to keep in mind that while doing this the Starfighter carries an offensive load of 3400 KG vs Mig 21`s 1500KG .....

while the F 104 MATCHES THE CANNON ... it is superior in the following ...it carries side winders ... air to sea missles Kormoran .... air to air missles APside missles the reco pod and the Bombs ... as compared to Mig 21`s rather limited supply of weaponry ..... Mig 21 obviously was Fighter Interceptor where as F 104 was an offensive aircraft .... to compare them both is a folly but statistically F 104 out flies the Mig 21 any day ... For those of you who say that the F 104 was not state of the Art ... you know little about Fighters and little about the F 104 ... Please reseach instead of making statements without basis ... We DONT want a lot of FUZAIRS around!!! That only leads to further deterioration of the conversation!!!!!

-Yasser Latif Hamdani

alireza #107

Extremists: Tell me how many RSS/BJP workers carry guns? How many of them are `spirited` enough to cross borders with those guns? How many of them feel ideologically secure as Pakistani extremists do in the presence of a national Islamic Ideology Council? How much noise is created in Pakistan about the misuse of Islam, compared to the noise created in India about the misuse of Hindusim?

Lets be really honest now, didnot Zia-ul-Haq`s changes to the Constitution make Islamization of society a profitable cottage industry in the private sector where it is legitimate for any private citizen or any private organization to `throw the book` at other citizens as a politically and economically gainful activity? (PS: I wrote a letter to The Nation with these very words and needless to say...)

Hardline religious organizations in India would probably love to do the same, only they have to contend with government control over traditional temples and collections unless they declare themselves a `minority` religion. Anyway a Hindu has no special entitlements under law, infact the net effect is sometimes the reverse. And the crusaders would have to `throw a library`, there is no single book or defination.

Sadhana

ylh #110

Indians are not answerable to Pakistanis for what Pakistanis are taught as history. Its in Pakistanis` own interest to test the correspondence between what they are taught to facts and realities outside the textbooks. When you have some leisure, you might also like to contemplate that interesting and miraculous element of Pakistani history going back x *1000 years namely that the Radcliffe line drawn in the sands of Thar and along rivers and mountains held good for so many 1000 years till it was finally discovered this century.

Sadhana

Re: Fuzair Reply #: 113

``The F104`s nickname of the ``Widowmaker`` came from the Luftwaffe which also flew F104s during the 1960s... and crashed many of them. I met a retired gentleman some years ago who had been on the original F104 design team and asked him about the F104. He stated that the Luftwaffe persisted in sending relatively inexperienced pilots to fly F104s and that explains why they had so many crash on them. On the other hand, the PAF sent its best pilots to fly F104s and thats why it had such a very different experience with them. I believe the PAF only lost one to an accident (during 1965 when he flew into the ground while, when low on fuel, trying to land in poor visibility conditions).``

Yes, it goes to the credit of the PAF pilots that they did not have as bad an experience with the F-104.

``Incidentally, why didn`t the IAF committ its MiG21s into combat in 1965?``

I`m not sure. I think maybe those were early days of the Mig-21 acquisition program. The Mig-21 itself was going through a number of rapid changes and versions. Incidentally the Mig-21 holds the world record for the number of versions of one aircraft (37). On hindsight it looks like India`s lucky star was shining brightly. Had the US agreed to give India the F-104s the IAF would have been saddled with a lemon and they would not have gone in for the Mig-21 which as you know went on to become one of the best known fighters. It holds the record for the largest number of a jet fighter ever produced - about 12000.

regards,

AN

Ref concerned #: 104

You say {also, next time you meet your aphc friends, ask them how they are able to construct mansions in srinagar, and why their sons go to usa instead of fighting the opperessive indian forces in kashmir.}

The first thing that a newly independent country needs is ambassadors in foreign countries.... much before food, security, etc.

Obviously, these people are being trained in the US and the UK so thay can form the leadership of the diplomatic corps of newly independent Kashmir.

Also, unless one has already experienced living in a foreign country, how can you expect them not to commit social mistakes? So, this is job training of the highest order.

At least, the APHC got a ton of money out of Pakistan so their palaces and lifestyles are not being funded by India.

Umairr mentioned (on some other thread) that Pakistan was open to the third option of Kashmiri independence. Only in the last 3 months. You could read articles in the Frontier Post by the APHC chief bemoaning the fact that Pakistan`s only interest in Kashmir was to get Kashmir for itself. He conveniently forgets the fact that HIS objective is to get Kashmir for himself!

The truth is that India has its thugs in the form of National Congress and Farooq Abdullah, the APHC is another group of thugs, and Pakistan has its thugs in the Lashkar-e-Toyiba and other mujahideen groups. All fighting for a valley which controls the only road to Ladakh. So, don`t expect any Indian government to do a thing for the Kashmiris. Their only hope is to shut up and integrate with the rest of India. All that is happening in Kashmir is what used to happen 150 years back with each little valley (Hunza, Chitral, Nagar, Punial, Yasin, Chilas, etc.) fighting amongst themselves and getting help from Britain, China or Afghanistan. Except we now have AK-47s instead of breech-loaders and helicopters instead of pack mules. Actually, the killing rate is much lower than in the past where it was common practice to wipe out every village on the way just to teach people a lesson. It is going to take quite a while for these people to learn to live in peace.

TO FUZAIR !!!!!!

Please instead of ignoring show me how my knowledge of History is flawed ????

Is there some deep sense of insecurity that makes you think that way? Maybe because I am just 19???

I dont get it,... I seriously dont .... why dont you instead of attacking me present me with credible counter arguments ... once again you have indulged in personal attacks.

Sagacity DOES not COME WITH AGE .... LOOK no further than Fuzair!!!!

to Sherdil

thanks for your words of support and appreciation .... yes indeed there are some of the things I do feel very strongly about .... and I am in all agreement with you on PAF, Cricket team under Imran Khan, Miandad`s valorous cricketing exploits and ofcourse ZAB`s Charismatic leadership. Diverse as it may seem but these expound the best of what are country stands for ... the country that the great Quaid e Azam dreamt off.

These are the things that make the dismal perfomance of Pakistan in the World Cup final so

Uncharacteristic of national character.

For RSaxena

Why dont you answer my point 79 again ? and then we can talk about 100 for which I have a more tha adequate answer for you!!!!!

Just to add my two paise to the issue with the Indian salary levels, with respect to (naval as well as airforce) pilots in the mid 1980`s (just before liberalisation), the sum total emoluments were approximately INR 10k pcm inclusive of all allowances and pay. This should be compared to about INR 3k paid to fresh post graduates, irrespective of disciplines. For example, an IITian would get about 3-5K, an IAS officer would get about 3k, a doctor (just starting) 4K, an asst prof about 3k, and so on. Post liberalisation, the situation changed drastically. IIM /IIT graduates could easily achieve upto 10-30k pcm if not more. The 5th pay commission did make a difference, the pay of the pilots increased to about 15-20k inclusive of allowances. Hence most of the operational pilots who joined in the 1980`s who will be manning the front line squadrons or boat(s??) would have had a good starting point on salaries. But the salaries start diverging rapidly as you go up the scale.

On the question: would an ``average`` person join the airforce?. Given a choice between monetary gain through business and military service, logic dictates that they would plump for the monetary gain. Needless to say, there is a fair share of young men who are driven more from the ``patriotism`` and ``adventurism`` who enter into military service. For them, monetary considerations are way down the list of criteria for jobs. That is not to say that muscle bound, block headed, fearless folks join in. The selection process is quite rigorous. And given India`s population, the ``fair share`` would be considerably large. For example, for the yearly 6 eventual seats within the naval av. branch, you have approximately 120k people sitting for the written exam, then you have 5 days of psy. tests and group exercises, then 2 days of interviews for about 100 boys. Then you have the medical spanning 5 days after which you get about 10 who get offered to join the force. All this just to join the academy and then you keep on getting tested till kingdom come, which as any pilot knows and lives with (either in civvy land or military land). One also comes out with an equivalent diploma in aeronautical engineering after training. Before you strap a $30-40 million fighter around a pilot, you make absolutely sure that the guy is top notch. As Ummair would attest to, training is done daily and exhaustively, but when you are talking about actual war situations, dog fights et. al., the presence of lady luck is extremely overpowering. Given the gazillions of factors impinging on your mission, and the 2 possible outcomes, training can but cover for only that much. Then the numbers count in terms of probability.

some other bits and bobs:

1. the mig 21 squadron was tasked for the Chinese border rather than the Pakistan war, it was a bit hairy around that time with the Chinese making noises about the incursions on the sikkim/china border.

2. You have got to compare like with like, ground attack aircraft like the jaguar cannot compare with F16`s in terms of performance. The sukoi`s and mig 29`s are more like it. You also have to remember that besides the planes, the simulators also come with the planes. And you can be rest assured that most of the mission and aircraft parameters are fed into them as well. End of the day, lady luck plays a major hand.

3. The ground pounders will need a CAP. The defending force will require to attack the ground pounders to protect the ground installations/armour/materials as well as to take out the opposing CAP. That needs a certain bare minimum of aircraft. If there are more than 2 fronts, then the number of F16`s may not be enough. Another aspect to be factored in, which seems to have been ignored in the discussions, is the possibility of air attacks on the sea board from the carriers. The current SAM/radar coverage on the sea front is less that effective. The prior understanding was that any kind of sea borne attack would be notified by the US Indian Ocean fleet/ satellite based recon. If there are 3 fronts, two land based and one sea, you are looking at trouble, the coverage will just not be enough.

4. The Starfighter was NOT designed for dog-fights. The development of the plane started when people were enthralled with missile technology. The orientation was to get to effective range and pickle off your missiles. To get into a furball was NOT the primary design parameter. Given that philosophy, its no surprise that during dog-fights, it was not up to the mark. The weight to thrust ratio is different for different parameters, the F16 is the nearest thing to a multi - role plane that you can get, both for low density fur balls or stand off conflicts. On the other hand, India has got specialised planes, which does give it an inherent advantage.

cheers

bd

Re: Anarayan #109

Thank you for the information about the F104s. One or two points. I think, at least in 1965, the F104s were used by the PAF for High-Altitude CAPs, not for low-altitude dog-fighting, that being left to the Sabres. My knowledge of the 1971 Air War is more sketchy so I shall defer to yours.

Now that you gave more details on the MiG21-F104 encounter in 1965, I think I owe the IAF an apology. I recall now that MiG21s (at least the version that the IAF had in 1965) cannot go supersonic at low altitudes, hence the F104`s ability to outrun the opposition. I guess I turned it around--embarrassment all around.

The F104`s nickname of the ``Widowmaker`` came from the Luftwaffe which also flew F104s during the 1960s... and crashed many of them. I met a retired gentleman some years ago who had been on the original F104 design team and asked him about the F104. He stated that the Luftwaffe persisted in sending relatively inexperienced pilots to fly F104s and that explains why they had so many crash on them. On the other hand, the PAF sent its best pilots to fly F104s and thats why it had such a very different experience with them. I believe the PAF only lost one to an accident (during 1965 when he flew into the ground while, when low on fuel, trying to land in poor visibility conditions).

Incidentally, why didn`t the IAF committ its MiG21s into combat in 1965? Hadn`t the squadron been operational since 1963?

Regards.