Different Eagles, Same Genus

Re: Sherdil # 171

Everybody is welcoming me on Chowk and I am grateful but also feel miffed since I`ve been hanging around here off and on pretty much since it all began. Maybe nobody noticed me, oh well :)

Anyway, I agree with you that BJP/RSS and GOP/Christian Right is not an exact analogy since there wasn`t a `Christian organization` that spawned the GOP but I still see enough similarities to make that analogy. But the point I was trying to make is that Pakistanis seem to have very little understanding of the dynamics within the Sangh Parivar. So I am just trying to do my bit to widen their perception.

BJP does form the political wing of the `Sangh Parivar`, but essentially through all its incarnations (first the Jan Sangh, then the Janta Party, and now the BJP) it has mainly been the `nation-wide right off center` option for the Indian electorate. The `nation-wide only option` Congress Party` basically inherited the power from the old INC and people like Nehru unleashed their agenda on the country and it took quite a while for the people to demand an option. The day there was a need to offset the policies of the Congress, it got reduced to the `nation-wide left off center` option.

The electoral politics in India are fast maturing and settling into a primarily bipolar environment augmented by regional parties. What will likely happen is that there will be two major parties, one will be liberal in nature and support affirmative action programs, bigger welfare packages, defy the common civil code etc. and the other will be conservative and essentially take opposing stands to the other. However, neither of them will have enough regional pull to go on their own so their agendas will be tempered and affected significantly by regional parties and their mandates. That is the reality. If anything is going right (no pun intended) in India, it is this maturing of the electorate. And then you have Pakistanis compare the BJP to the Jamaat. I think it`s an appalling comparison. I think Sadhana has debunked this comparison many times far more eloquently than I ever can and so I will leave it at that.

Coming back to the GOP however, here`s where I am coming from.

You know those whackos who lob grenades at abortion clinics? They vote Republican.

You know those guys who hole themselves up in places like Ruby Ridge & Davidian Ranch? They vote Republican.

You know those guys who put up bumper stickers that read `Charlton Heston is my President`? They vote Republican.

You know those folks in Kansas who voted to teach creationism in Schools? They vote Republican.

But then so does William Gates & Warren Buffet & Arnold Schwartznegger and Vietnam Vets and soccer moms and grocery store baggers and toll booth clerks and cell phone wielding yuppies.

A Grand Wizard of the KKK, David Duke can run on GOP platform, so can Alan Keyes a black man.

Likewise, BJP is a National Party with myriad support bases.

Yes, the frenzied teenager from a UP village that wielded the sledgehammer on Dec 6th at Babri voted BJP.

Yes, those scary looking sadhus that put ash on their faces and dance around vote BJP.

Yes, narrow minded Muslim haters and Christian Haters and other random losers vote BJP.

But so do Doctors and lawyers and Scientists and Papad roasting Bahenjis and genial joke telling chachajis.

A rabid Sadhvi Ritambhara can run on BJP ticket, so can Sikandar Bakht a Muslim.

India is a many layered society and you have to garner several apparently disparate vote banks to stand a chance. BJP learned this slowly but eventually perfected it. The party means different things to different people. To the brokers it means lesser state control but greater defiance to IMF & World Bank pressures. To the upper castes it means relief from ridiculously disproportionate affirmative action like the Mandal commission. To the middle classes it means greater chances at prosperity or greater nationalistic pride. To the lower castes it means relief from Congressi condescension. To the zealots it means a greater chance at teaching Pakistan `a lesson`, so on and so forth.

L.K. Advani with his Rath Yatra discovered what would really reel in the votes and by god the BJP played that one out to the max and consolidated their position. But they learnt that although it was a great tactic to get in the door of the Lok Sabha, to stay in the halls of power required quite a different array of skills. So they played those and are in the process of refining them. In the end however, the people ARE getting what they want with this coalition that is in power right now. A nationalistic party led by somebody they trust not to sell their country`s honor which is tempered, checked & balanced by parties representing pretty much all regional, ideological & religious concerns.

The problem is that right now, a huge chunk of the electorate is illiterate and uneducated, so for anybody to get in the door, the issues that have to be raised during campaigning are less cerebral and more rabble-rousing. As prosperity rises and education starts to prevail, this content of the electorate will slowly be weeded out and at that time, the particular incarnation of the BJP will look different that the one you see right now.

re sherdil 171

No need to apologise to anyone. My take on Kashmir is rather identical to yours in that I too believe that the world community owes them a plebiscite to decide their future.

When I say that I understand that passions run high on the other side and sometimes are justified, I am hardly broaching a new thought. To Indians it is a matter of territorial integrity which has been further aggravated by their perception (maybe reality) of Pakistan`s ``more than moral/diplomatic`` support to the Kashmiri freedom fighters. That line taken by Indians, while appearing very flawed to many of us, is very valid to most Indians and many others worldwide. To the proponents of the nation-state system, it is a very ``justified`` line.All I said is that I understand it; that is hardly the same as saying that ``I agree with it``.

My take on India`s expansionism is well known to most regular chowkwallas. Kashmir is, but only the most prominent, in a list that includes Junagadh, Jodhpur, Babriawad, Mangrol, Hyderabad, Goa, Sikkim (did I miss any?).

Kashmir is all the more special because its existence within the Indian Union lends added credibility to India`s secular image. India will fight for it tooth and nail, make no mistake about it. In a way the Vale is the linchpin of `Akhand Bharat`. If Kasmir breaks away, who`s gonna stop the Sikhs, the Nagas, and perhaps Bengalis?

Greetings Chowkwallahs, both new and old, Pakistanis and Indians!

Sorry for enforced absence from this page, but now that I am back, I would like to clear up a few typos/mistakes/judgement errors in this article of mine, which has generatated so much nationalistic acid between us!

First of all, this article is not a detailed precis on the values of PAF or IAF and nor should it be taken that way. It is just a collection of my musings, not even thoughts on the topic and what I consider about the two eagles on different perches in South Asia. Any bluders, goof offs or examples of my sheer stupidity (I am known for my failings)were due to my own ignorance, which exceds all known human limits! This article was penned a long, long time ago in an evironment far, far away and was only submitted to Chowk when I came across it while re-formating my disks recently. I never thought that it see the cyber day light on Chowk.....

I have no animus against IAF ``fighter jocks``, because in the past I have had the misfortune of knowing many egocentric fighter pilots and they all, to the man, joined up because of their ``need for speed``. These folks` first love is flying fast and the only where these speed maniacs can fly the hottest rides is in the military. So they sign up. No one wants to kill another pilot. If the intent of this article came across that I was belitting IAF that was the not the case and if it was taken that way, then naturally the article leaves a lot to be desired and I am sorry for its limitations, which might have irked you.

One last thing people. I was greatly saddened to read the remarks made, by all and you know who you are, on each other`s respective religions, nations and cultural aspects. Critical comments are one thing, but from the remarks I have read, in the InterActs/replies, the tone was embittered, mean, shallow and it only succeded in showing the intolerance of the interacter and did not in any manner increase the logical weight of his/her arguments. Folks, by your own petty myopic comments you only lessened the value of your own arguments!

Lastly, to all my friends, both Indians and Pakistanis, I missed interacting with you all and hope you will all give me another opportunity to share some thoughts/comments/suggestions with you in the future.

Take care each and all of you!

Feroz

re ylh:

it is disappointing to see a 19 year old, educated in british and american schools in lahore, now at rutgers, claiming that everyone in pakistan believes in jihad-e-kashmir, believes indians are neo-nazis, organizes psa meetings to highlight kashmir, and fervently ends his responses on chowk with slogans.

wonder if all this passion and energy would better be utilized for JIHAD-E-PAKISTAN.

and what good could pervez hoodbhoy`s fervent appeals for a revised national curruculum bring, even if implemented?

on the other hand, bbc reported some time back that a brilliant pakistani student in england, was lured back to pakistan to become a mujahideen!

so how about it, ylh?

Re: Macgupta #162

I`ll happily confirm your findings. The ISI created the Afghan mujahideen well before the 1979 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Pakistan decided to step up support for anti-Afghan govt forces to counter Afghanistan`s Pakhtunistan policy--which had India`s full support BTW. We really increased our support for Massoud, Hikmatyar and co after 1973 when Daud Shah backed the BPLF in the Baluch Insurgency.

This is old knowledge to everyone but the Americans, who were apparently amazed to learn that Pakistan had its own agenda in Afghanistan. As I said before, my only objection to the Pax Americana is that its run by idiots.

regards.

The Happy One re:168

`Flinging pakoras at each other`

Well, that settles it for my giggle quota of the day..

to ``a happy one``

I am very glad to see someone like you writing on chowk. I appreciated the tone of your response and the content of it. A warm welcome to you.

I have one response however:

You said that the BJP and the RSS cannot be interchangable and that it would be akin to saying the Republican Party/The Christian Right.

They may become distanced from each other in the future (in fact in order to win the elections the distancing process had begun), but the BJP is the child and offshoot of the RSS. The Republican party is not a offshoot of the Christian Right.

The BJP and the RSS are much closer bedfellows, Vajpayee is a member along with others in his cabinet, and he has written about his love and admiration for the RSS.

But I will repeat myself (from an earier post): In spite of this the strength of India is in her democratic process, and I firmly believe that will do very good things for her.

We do not have that in Pakistan, but with Gen. Musharraf I have high hopes.

sigalph235

I read your response to ylh with interest: what interested me most was your last sentence:

``But the passions run very high on the other side too, with some justification, I must say.``

Can it be that I have been wrong in my perceptions?! :) I would be grateful to you if you can elaborate on that sentence and perhaps clarify the justifications you mentioned.

If you can present convincing facts that justify the occupation of Kashmir by the Indian army then first and foremost I will apologise to you and will reevaluate what I have thought so far about the Kashmiri situation.

Re: Ylh 166 & 167

Yes, you did fail to recognize me. I am sure this `Prem` character is a delightful fellow but unfortunately, he and me, we be different people altogether. Sorry to burst your bubble.

It is evident from your posts that you did not get my message so at the risk of performing an entirely futile task I shall give it one more go.

Listen, you think India has wronged the Kashmiris. Right? You think Pakistanis are better, more virtuous, and rightfully peeved at the Indians for `raping` and `pillaging` their Kashmiri brethren. Right? OK, fine. You or anybody else is entitled to your opinion but you are trying to do one more, Aren`t you? I mean is it not your intention to propagate this view as much as you can and garner international support and sympathy towards your view? Or are you in it just for kicks?

If it is your intention to gain support and sympathy for your cause, then ask yourself how best you can do that. Do you think shouting from roof tops and making wildly outrageous and insensitive declarations like calling a collective group of a billion people `neo-nazis` will achieve your end? Many people in that audience of your at Rutgers have close Indian friends, so be careful when you make such statements cuz you may not exactly make them warm and fuzzy to your cause! The more outrageous and fantastic your claims, the more outrageous and fantastic your cause will seem. Think about it.

And one more thing.... we`ve all been 19, we know what that age is like. Every well intentioned advice is an affront. But can you think back 3 years ago when you were 16? Did a lot of stupid things, didn`t you? Things you wouldn`t even dream of doing today since now you know better. Well I assure you my friend that 3 years from now when you are 22, you will look back upon yourself and repent how silly you behaved. In that, sagacity does come with age. Unless of course you have concluded that you will be getting stupider by the year from here on out!

Re: #164 & #165

Thanks for your encouragement.

See there`s two kinds of articles on Chowk:

1. Those with content classified as `literary` or `artistic`.

2. Those with content classified as `political` (even a smidgen of allusion to relative strength of our countries in any sphere brings about this classification)

The first kind receive an average of 25 generally amicable responses and then unceremoniously go packing into the dustbin of Chowk archives even though some of them are of tremendous merit.

The second kind inspire from 150 to 1000 usually testy responses and at some point or the other deteriorate into a hate-fest centered on Kashmir.

I sometimes wonder if our diplomats behave the same way. First they lounge around in pre-conference and banter about films and gazals and such with great bonhomie but then they get talking about business which leads to Kashmir and they end up flinging their respective pakodas at each other.

I don`t know when people forgot that it is absolutely essential to keep arguments civil if they need to achieve anything at all.

Re ylh

Regarding your Kashmir issue on Rutgers campus, take a word from the wise: be careful, my friend. I have been there many years ago. In the zeal of youthful rightoeusness, I too was an ardent advocate of Kashmiri freedom my freshman/sophomore years on our Midwestern campus. When finally the Student Senate succeeded in passing the pro-freedom resolution and getting it sent to the Congressional delegation and getting our Congressman to meet us on the matter, things got ugly. The Indian students turned hostile, there was graffiti on our homes and cars; the Indian professors were rude(that`s a queasy feeling when you`re a freshman); the American liberals were just fed-up and blamed us. At the end of the day the three of us cheif sponsors, myself, a Pakistani, and an WASP American were `counseled` by the Univ prez himself. Not exactly a something most kids want on their record.

So good luck but tread lightly and very cautiously.

Kashmir is as close to my heart as anybody else`s. But the passions run very high on the other side too, with some justification, I must say.

-oh by the way I hope you see that I really wanted this response from your kind when I called Indians

``Neo Nazis`` .....at the Kashmir forum at Rutgers.

I am glad that you have a level head Prem and now you are here to redeem Indians from the depths Rsaxena has plunged Indians into.

I definitely want more of Happy ones than Rsaxenas

and then we can have a constructive dialogue!

Glad to have you aboard

-Yasser Hamdani

Prem since when did you start wishing Pakistan well ???

Kiyoon bey what did you think I didnt recognize you???

Anyway Nice post!

As for Rutgers ... you know I do exactly that.

-Yasser Hamdani

the happy one #163:

Thanks for the post and the tone. Needed it here every so often to put things in perspective.

And that `phew` counted as how many breaths?

rgds

t

the happy one # 163

Your excellent post made me very happy. Please keep writing.

To everybody slinging mud back and forth:

Chill people! Back off. Ever hear of Fernand Lamaze? Take five deep breaths (just don`t push quite yet :))

To Ylh:

Amaa yaar by constantly shouting and jumping up and down you are merely lowering your credibility. You are not the first one to post up that gem about 5000 yrs of Pakistani history. The reason why nobody is disputing the `factual` aspect of that post is because just about everybody is disputing the `conceptual` aspect of it. Nobody is disputing those facts but pretty much everybody is debunking the conclusion you are drawing from it. The conclusion you are drawing from these facts is all that matters here, many folks have disputed that and you have not responded to any of them.

All caps on the internet is akin to shouting. Is that how you usually present your arguments at Rutgers? By shouting at the top of your voice? I hope not. Just be a bit civil and people will be civil in return. If you want any constructive dialogue on any matter on any forum, you will have to exhibit civility even if your are greatly provoked. I hope you have figured that out already! And by using fifteen exclamation marks in a row every third sentence diminishes their value completely and people stop to take you seriously. So my advice (you will probably ignore it but I have to try) is, stop shouting, stop being belligerent and you will find yourself in the middle of many constructive dialogues.

To Islam hating Indians:

Every time you make insensitive and derogative remark about Muslims, you give Pakistanis the moral high ground and you undermine the basic principles of India. Go back under the rock you crawled out from. Thanks.

To Pakistanis who compare BJP to Jehadis:

Number 1., please stop using the expression BJP/RSS, they are not interchangeable!! Would you say Republican Party/ The Christian Right? BJP is a political entity, some of its members are sanghis and some not and they are constantly clashing (not in the streets with AK-57s, the clash in caucuses). And for the last time, the BJP DOES NOT RULE INDIA, NDA DOES!!!!!! (Ylh, please note the selective use of caps & multiple exclamations is much more affective that frequent use of the same :)).

There is a huge difference between the BJP ruling and the NDA ruling. Would a Jehadi party form a pre-election coalition and construct a consensual common agenda with Hindu, Christian, Parsi, Shiaite parties?

Gymnosophist on this forum has been shouting himself hoarse about the increasingly pivotal role the regional parties play in national politics. Because of that India is pretty much guaranteed immunity from extremist agendas, `Brahminical` or otherwise.

You guys get all bent out of shape and claim that BJP is a `Hindu Fundamentalist` party and the nuclear tests were nothing but a flashing of their true hawkish Hindu expansionist intentions, consider this: Of the three people that huddled & conferred seconds after the blasts, two were non-Hindus. Now chew on that!

To Pakistanis who don`t want Indian participation on Chowk:

Nobody is forcing Chowk to let Indians in. I am sure the management at Chowk talked about this extensively during the inception of the forum and do talk about it continuously and come to the same decision every time. Its an open forum meant for open discussions. It is `inclusive` in nature. Its is obvious from the tone and tenor of discussions what it has become, a place for Indian and Pakistanis to hold dialogue. That`s what`s great about it! Umairr has pointed out that Chowk is the track 3 diplomacy and I completely agree. I recently went to India and found myself vehemently arguing many Pakistani angles (I wasn`t purporting them, mainly presenting them as valid Pakistani concerns) to my Indian friends. Those guys have never interacted with Pakistanis and pretty much think you are all infidels. When you attach a face and a family and a personality to your enemy and learn about their concern and grievances, a lot of hatred washes away and you start seeing commonalties. This is especially true of Indians and Pakistanis because they share a common culture to begin with. That is what the Chowk provides. The Pakistanis who want Indians out of here are not interested in the hatred diminishing. Of all the things that I disagree with Umairr on, I will vehemently support this viewpoint of his, we have GOT TO keep talking!!

And one thing you have to learn to accept that in pretty much all international and open fora, you will be outnumbered by the Indians. That`s just they way it is! But do learn to take pride in the fact that it was a bunch of Pakistanis that started this wonderful site. You guys beat us to it! So more power to you!

To Pakistanis who dispute secular & democratic credentials of India:

Pakistan in NOT a religiously inclusive society (we can argue all day about how the Quaid wanted it but we all know how its turned out). India IS one. And India and Indians WANT Pakistan to be one.

It seems like the Pakistanis want to offset the disappointment of not being an inclusive country (because deep down they want their country to be inclusive) by disregarding India`s credentials. It doesn`t have to be that way!

India has had Presidents and Chief ministers and Hockey Captains and Cricket Captains and Ambassadors and Governors and Vice chancellors and CEOs and all kinds of important positions filled by Muslims and other minorities. But aside from that, if Hindus hated Muslims so much and wanted to economically suppress them, how do you explain the fact that Sharukh Khan, Aamir Khan & Salmaan Khan are the top three most admired actors in India? From the days of Yousufbhai changing his name to Daleep, we have come to a point where I wont be surprised if an actor named Rakesh Verma assumes a show name like Rahim Khan.

Give some credit where its due. Outrageously exaggerating India`s communal rifts and BJP`s exclusionist tendencies will do nothing to solve Pakistan`s problems. I hope you become a Secular, Democratic, Prosperous & Mighty Nation and show the world what tolerant Islam is all about. That day you will not have 140 million but 1 billion friends across the border. And many many more around the world.

Or else you can make fantastic claims about India`s evil nature, remain obsessed with it and get mired in exclusionist and intolerant interpretation of Islam and become an international pariah headed towards implosion. Is it such a tough choice?

To Pakistanis who have a problem with Indians lecturing them:

I don`t know about other Indian people but when I opine that I wish for a Secular, Democratic & Prosperous Pakistan, I am not `lecturing` at all! It is a sincere good wish! Even if you think that being secular & democratic is not good for Pakistan, that still does not change the fact that I am not lecturing, just wishing well.

So there, phew :)

Somebody on this board or the other claimed that the BJP assasinated Gandhi!

That would be very tough for BJP to achieve decades before its inception, unless of course Michael J. Fox and Bob Zemeckis were BJP members!

What`s your logic? Nathuram was related to the RSS, RSS members tend to join the BJP, therefore BJP killed the Mahatma?

So how about this then:

Kevin Bacon`s maternal uncle is Austrian, Austria is the coutry of birth of Adolf Hitler, Adolf Hitler killed 6 million Jews, therfore Kevin Bacon is a Genocidal Jew Killer!