To Western Women

Security of women in traditional vs `modern` societies:

Leaving equality in politics and law out of it, there are the issues of 1)physical security, 2)security in interpersonal or social situations and 3)emotional(for want of a better word) security of women.

Items 1) and 2) are essentially freedom from harassment when venturing out on equal terms. In the West, the state is committed to effective policing and lawmaking toward this purpose. Have states with traditional societies a. accepted the need for this and b. had sufficient political stability to achieve it? Is the West vs East `traditional restraint on women` argument made with these failures as whitewashed excuses?

3)Emotional security and interconnectedness(terminology from PM) cannot be provided by state apparatus and political philosophy even in the West. Emotional security and interconnectedness need some acceptance of mutual responsibility and restraints.

Is a woman whose physical attributes are being evaluated in front of millions of people by H Stern more secure and interconnected emotionally to society and those that matter to her than a woman in burqa or purdah who is denied any scope of activity except in her home and family?

Both may be extreme examples but neither is doing very well due to some flawed premises which have fostered each`s situation. Western society seems to move on the assumption that men, women and children require nothing but legal protection from all social/individual choices and traditional societies seem to assume these days that severe restrictions on the scope of womens activities and choices are the only way to safeguard their security and `interconnectedness` and to safeguard orderliness of society.

In India too, cultural baggage still severely restricts the scope of many many women, but the transition toward fewer restrictions is made easier because there exists sufficient conceptual basis in the past for junking part of this baggage while retaining some of it. Manusmriti is after all only a smriti :-) and there are role models like Durga, Kali and Saraswati :-) !! Time to pick up that sword and go feed that tiger :-)

Finally, that a woman laden with jewellery could walk safely alone at night down a public road is a criteria mentioned somewhere in subcontinental or Middle Eastern mythology? about the ideal rule of an ideal ruler. It may be worth being inspired by such examples, too.

Sadhana

...I am sorry to read that someone of your calibre believes that a woman needs to be covered ie wear a hijab to be respected .. for is that all not in your heart .. to expect respect .. respect yourself

To work .. is no crime .. no sin .. for our Prophets first wife had her own business - as a matter of fact to work side by side with your partner gives you a satisfaction which is beyond words.

So why dont you consider talking about the balance people like us can acheive. To be in sharam but all the while to be successful. For we have the most beautiful graces - which are not seen in other cultures. To recognise these is what we need to be aiming for instead of critisizing the culture where you choose to live.

By the way a woman is more than daughter, wife, nurse, cleaner, cook, lover - she is a excellent teacher ... healer ... carer ... farmer ... builder (brick and cement), accountant.. lawyer and above all counsellor ...

have a fun and pleasurable life .. God bless

Gen. Musharraf has refused to amend the Islamic law, which allows honor-killings. While talking to a BBC correspondent, Hina Jilani said, ``the present military regime has refused to amend the Islamic law, introduced in 1992, which allows family members of the victim of honor killing to take money in return or simply forgive it. The current military regime is equally unwilling to stop this as all other previous regimes. There is no difference between them and the previous rulers``

Well, in majority of cases it is the family, which actually performs the killing. Sometimes, under pressure from their waders or choudhry or Sardar or whoever, but it usually is the family of the victim who performs the heinous act. I remember an article by Zeejah in which she expressed doubts about the sincerity of Mr. Musharraf in regards to honor killings. In an unprecedented move, Musharraf invited the murderer father of a high profile honor-killing victim to be by his side during a public meeting in NWFP. To put it politely, a disturbing act by the man who claimed to have come as a massiah to save the nation.

I am sorry, but this issue is very close to my heart. I have witnessed honor-killings in person. There must be something we can do for these poor women. I am sending a strong worded letter of protest to Pakistan High Commission in Canberra. Not that it is going to achieve anything, but let us do whatever we can to register our protest.

Thanks.

Re: Fozia #84

Fozia,

Read ``A tale of two revolutions`` by Sherry Rehman - as recommended by Bina. The URL is www.thefridaytimes.com....

Well, I wasn`t going to... but, I can`t keep quiet. First of all, what respect, Have you heard of what the women of Afganistan are going through? What about what those sadistic jerks are doing to their women? Where in the hell is all the Islamic respect for them? Secondly, you can be covered, and so can your husbands second wife, and third, and his mistress. As for being abused, give it up it happens to women everywhere in all races, religions, cultures. It has to do with men demeaning women simply because they can, and you want to know something studies corelate it to the mother/son relationship. And as for clothes, women in the west have a choice... Not all of us dress to impress or to get attention. There are conservative clothes in western culture as well. Me, I usually dress like a bum and trust me no one notices. Just because you cover yourself don`t be so self-righteous. Your poetry conveys one thing to me. You are young and you have not lived enough life to realize that it`s a man`s world no matter what you do, how you act, or who you are. Also, to some men, covered women are more alluring and sexy because there is more of a mystery. You get respect in the way you carry yourself and for your mind, you don`t get it if you haven`t self-actualized. At least in the west women can get a descent degree, they can go out in the streets without being pinched or prodded, they can live independent lives. Hey, I`m not saying my life is any better than yours, but at least I know my thoughts are mine and my life is mine and I don`t depend on a man to take care of me and, God forbid, if he were to leave me, I can take care of myself.

To :SR, YHL, Hamdin etc

I have followed a lot of postings and to me they all sound reasonable. However, one thing that we must keep in mind is that in ALL major religons, of the world, the status of women has been second to men. Being a Hindu, I know it is not something that was corrupted over time, this was the way it was supposed to be.

In the Manu Smriti, and even Ramayan (both Valmiki and TulsiDas Ramayan) there are numerous instances where women are put down.

Before we jump onto the Hindu-bashing bandwagon, or any bashing, do pause a momemnt and consider the some observations.

Womens rights became a major issue in the 1950s alongwith the Black movement. Before that in the 19th century women had started organisizing themselves but they were divided into 2 grps one who wanted more rights than they had (moderates) and others who wanted equal rights (extremists).

Anyway, my point is that ever since the womens lib started the social structure in the USA slowly started eroding. Divorce rates in those days were around 12% compared to about 52% today. The family in those days was more stable, and the social problems like violence amongst kids etc were not as much as it is in kids today.

Teenage pregnancy was not so common, and in general society was more peaceful than it is today.

My contention is that for a society to exsist, we need to have a hierarchy. Someone has to be designated to give in. You cannot run a country or a company, where 2 people have identical powers (although Goldman Sachs appears to be doing pretty good with 2 CEOs).

Perhaps, being the ``gentler`` speices women made the scrafice of their equal rights, for the stability of society. This later on became institutionalised in the form of religous edicts and started becoming corrupted to a point where women were treated as sub-human.

Obviously the above is all speculation, but what is not speculation is that in all socities where women were NOT given equal rights, the family structure was more stable, and in all the socities where women were given Eqaul rigths, the family was compromised.

The Eastern cultures are testimony to my contention. Be it Korea or Japan, or India or Sri Lanka, even a lot of African countries. Compare these to the Western European cultures and you shall see the difference in the family structures.

AD

OMAR1974 and other Progressive Pakistanis

WOMYN! WYMEN! (Mine is copyrighted. Patent pending).

Hamidm

Wit is one thing, expression is another. Which college did you attend? You write, and express yourself, very well. I would like to know to which college to credit it.

Just curious. Write more often.

There is no reason to dislike working women. A working woman is usually a good homemaker also. She brings additional resources to increase the standard of living--two incomes instead of one. Actually the children of working mothers in Pakistan do much better in school than homemaker mothers--this is just a personal experience.

Many of my classmates were the children of worknig mothers, mostly teachers. They were always ahead of rest of us in everything. Many of those highly talented girls ended up becoming homemakers. There is no doubt about their superior skills with raising children but there is another side to this story. The Government of Pakistan, during early eighties, was spending roughly 2000 rupees per month per Quaid-e-Azam university science student. What did a poor country like Pakistan got, for spending 2000 rupees per month for 2-4 years, if so many of the the students were destined to be housemakers? What a waste of extremely talented scientists.

There is no justification for considering a strictly homemaker position better than a working women who is contributing more to the society than the immediate family members.

I can`t figure out what`s worse. This regressive, pathetic poem glorifying barbarism or the vermin supporting it here.

Shame on you.

How self-delusory can you get. You think this hijab business was concocted by a woman? And not by the paranoid and perverted husband, father, and brother? By running around with your head covered up in this scarf in the hot weather in Pakistan are you not in fact still dancing to the tune of MEN??? Isn`t that exactly what you are accusing Western women of?

tsk tsk tsk.

Here is an interesting article on Modern Indian Women. This is no way to sterotype Indian women but such incidents are becoming increasingly common in cities like Bombay, Bangalore and Delhi.

Indian women dumping men for no apparent reason is becoming increasingly common in India. It has become a business with some Indian woman to get married and after initial fun period extract settlement money from their husbands by threatening prosecution. It seems, upto seven years of marriage, Indian law goes by what woman says. Under section 490 Indian police can put behind bars husband and his family for all charges levied by woman and law presumes that woman is right and it seems these incidents are rising in recent years. Husband is PRESUMED GUILTY because of history of Dowry Deaths in the past. Indian law has always been in favor of Women. Child custody is also being given only to women regardless how the men are (with no visitation rights)

--

How men feel about getting dumped!

By Shekhar Chandran



Some men just don`t see it coming. ``What do you want next?`` he asked his wife. ``A divorce,`` she said. He was shattered - as are many men when they`re rejected.

Rejected is brutal whether you`re male or female. The bottomline is that you love someone more than they love you. And boy, does it hurt. It`s not true that men bounce back faster. The truth is that men have an even harder time coping when they are dumped and given their walking orders.

It`s undoubtfully the ugly reputations generated by a minority of errant husbands that sustains this stereotype. The idea that men take it on the chin and walk away is rubbish. The evidence is that men suffer more not less - than women.

The difference is women tend to go to their best friends, talk and have a good cry, but men don`t usually have bond in the same way with other men. The truth is that men are better at hiding their feelings.

This aspect really works against them because, when the relationship ends it comes as a dreadful shock. It might surprise, but divorces are mainly initiated by women who, it seems, are more inclined to make a clean break, and decide to end an affair or marriage out of the blue, or at least, that`s how it appears to the poor, unsuspecting guy who`s missed all the signs. All this effects a man`s work, very badly.

Men cope far worse at work. Women, on the other hand, even if they have been rejected, survive better, throwing themselves into their work. Some women say they actually felt more motivated after the split. My feeling is that women become addicted to the idea that without a man, they`re nothing, but when a relationship actually ends, they`re better able to realize to the contrary. They learn to handle the consequences far more quickly. Women tend to fantasize more while in a relationship, but when it ends, they cope better with the reality. On the other hand, men, it seems, wallow far longer and find it harder to dismiss regret.

Booze often becomes a solution for many divorced men. Male divorcees are twice as likely to develop cirrhosis of the liver as married men. All men find male and female friends equally helpful in the aftermath, although in different ways.

Women were more sympathetic and prepared to listen for longer. But men give unstinting support. When it first happens, they say: `Well, would you rather get back with you wife or enjoy the freedom.` Salving his ego is difficult for a man. Ofcourse, rejected women also suffer crises of selfesteem, but for men, there`s the added twist of dented pride. We are reared to prove our-selves to any one who`s prepared to watch.

Men have to prove themselves to other men by moving around with a bevy of women or at least by being able to control their Woman. If they`re rejected, they may feel that it lowers their reputation in the eyes of other men. There is something a bit anaemic about a jilted male; the heavy, drooping shoulders; the constant sighing; the dreary, bloodshot eyes.

So if you have to end a relationship with a man, do it as fairly as possible, and don`t just dump the guy thoughtlessly. Remember his, ego makes him more fragile and the hurt can last longer and deeper.

Zeemax 83

You generally write insightful stuff, but you seem to have gotten off the wrong side of your bed today. The female stereotype you present is a figment of your experience and imagination. Highly subjective!

As a Father, I have experienced the same degree of closeness with my child that you believe, only a woman could feel. Actually, I could wash her hair without getting the shampoo in her eyes, something my spouse could never do. Of course that did not mean that she is not a good Mother, or that I am a better father. The point is that it just does not matter.

Farangi Kush

I agree with you on everything .... but I have to say AK Brohi is far from a reliable source especially because of his switcing of stances etc!

His lota charachter is more than unreliable!

Yasser Hamdani

Rafay alam

Read my reply to SR!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope SR is not Sakina Rizvi

Anyway

Has anyone noticed that On this forum the same people who attacked Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, are now attacking Islam ???

I find this to be an interesting

development!!!!!!

As far as Fuzair`s insults are concerned .....

if you notice he has dodged the whole issue of womens rights ... because NO ONE CAN DENY THE FACTS I PUT FORTH ABOUT THE INHERENT EQUALITY OF MEN AND WOMEN IN THE FRAME WORK OF ISLAM!!!!!!!!!

Instead Fuzair chose to attack a Strawman fallacy .... like he always does and he is always wrong !!

I never said that slavery was out lawed ... I said it dissappeared from the Islamic Society by the 17th century predominantly ... doesnot mean that it did not exist ... East African slavery tradition is more colonial in nature than Islamic!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fuzair do us a favor ... stop writing on this site .. cuz you are really out of line and just shows that either you are a juvenile delinquent or a senile old man ..... I got the impression that you are a teacher ... well I pity your students !!!!!!

I really do !!!!!!!! You are a disgrace to the very intellect of humanity ..... !!!!!!!!

Rafay alam

Read my reply to SR!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope SR is not Sakina Rizvi

Anyway

Has anyone noticed that On this forum the same people who attacked Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, are now attacking Islam ???

I find this to be an interesting

development!!!!!!

As far as Fuzair`s insults are concerned .....

if you notice he has dodged the whole issue of womens rights ... because NO ONE CAN DENY THE FACTS I PUT FORTH ABOUT THE INHERENT EQUALITY OF MEN AND WOMEN IN THE FRAME WORK OF ISLAM!!!!!!!!!

Instead Fuzair chose to attack a Strawman fallacy .... like he always does and he is always wrong !!

I never said that slavery was out lawed ... I said it dissappeared from the Islamic Society by the 17th century predominantly ... doesnot mean that it did not exist ... East African slavery tradition is more colonial in nature than Islamic!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fuzair do us a favor ... stop writing on this site .. cuz you are really out of line and just shows that either you are a juvenile delinquent or a senile old man ..... I got the impression that you are a teacher ... well I pity your students !!!!!!

I really do !!!!!!!! You are a disgrace to the very intellect of humanity ..... !!!!!!!!

Rafay alam

Read my reply to SR!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope SR is not Sakina Rizvi

Anyway

Has anyone noticed that On this forum the same people who attacked Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, are now attacking Islam ???

I find this to be an interesting

development!!!!!!

As far as Fuzair`s insults are concerned .....

if you notice he has dodged the whole issue of womens rights ... because NO ONE CAN DENY THE FACTS I PUT FORTH ABOUT THE INHERENT EQUALITY OF MEN AND WOMEN IN THE FRAME WORK OF ISLAM!!!!!!!!!

Instead Fuzair chose to attack a Strawman fallacy .... like he always does and he is always wrong !!

I never said that slavery was out lawed ... I said it dissappeared from the Islamic Society by the 17th century predominantly ... doesnot mean that it did not exist ... East African slavery tradition is more colonial in nature than Islamic!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fuzair do us a favor ... stop writing on this site .. cuz you are really out of line and just shows that either you are a juvenile delinquent or a senile old man ..... I got the impression that you are a teacher ... well I pity your students !!!!!!

I really do !!!!!!!! You are a disgrace to the very intellect of humanity ..... !!!!!!!!

Ok now first of all FUZAIR dont start with the personal insults cuz I am lahori and the personal insults I can come up with are beyond your wildest dreams or your worse nightmares ....

Now to all those who have pointed out the slavery was abolished as late as 20th century in some of the Islamic countries I want to point out the fact that sociologically speaking by the 17th century in most Muslim governed areas slavery was ``out`` of practice. I merely tried to show you how slavery in Islam was a remnant of the Jahilliyah which had to be done away slowly and the entire context of slavery was different from the western concept. Plus the Islamic concept of Manumation effectively

outlaws slavery on a moral plane if on a legal plabne it is permissable.

If some of you self professed intellectuals actually did read a little more you would probably understand things better.

Now coming to Fuzair ... who is this guy? I mean seriously speaking where did you get this guy from.

His personal insults throughout are extremely childish and juvenile and you know how it started.. Because I like Zulfikar Ali Bhutto ... and I dont know what Zulfikar Ali Bhutto did to Fuzair`s ... ahem... amma... because it really puts something ... up ahem ... Fuzair`s rear side!

Interesting

I like Bhutto he has a problem ... I defend Islam he has a problem ... will you just give it up Fuzair !!!!!!!! I have my views and most of the times they are the right views ....

Like they say

Sagacity doesnot necessarily come with age ... example Fuzair!

.....

Now dont you dare attack me again !