To Western Women

PS

I agree with the last part of Zeemax`s statement

:)

One word for jay #12: misogynist.

I can`t agree with anyone who belives 1) Women serve a role that ``comliments`` men; and 2) That a woman`s quest for equality is nothing more than some thinly veiled attampt at becoming a man.

A woman should be free to wear what she likes, when she like and how she likes. If that arouses passion in the hearts (loins?) of men, then I submit it is the men who need to re-appraise thier view on women. Just becuase a woman wears jeans doesn`t 1) mean she`s morally loose, or 2) she`s trying to be a man. It`s the men who see a woman as nothing more as an object of lust and desire who fantasize, and then order thier wives and sisters to cover up lest some other pervert think the same things.

Rafay

Laholay-awla-Quwat ...... what utter self-serving rubbish, nonsense and bunkum bosh ...... as our friend, Dr. Hoodbhoy would say, `` the incoherent babbling of a defective mind.`` ......... and I mean to be personal here ... there is no room for ``understanding`` and pity for those who do not have the sense to get out of the rain or step out of the way of Taliban Express as it hurtles down the railroad of ignorance and... and .... sheer idiocy.

The lota-toting, masalla-carrying, maswaq-chewing turban wearers have managed to create a creed of brainwashed female Muslimas who are willing to be herded into harems as concubines and second, third and fourth wives .... Mashaallh ! Talk about Jews singing on the way to the showers ! What these women don`t realize is that they cannot have their halwa and eat it too ..... the hijab might appear to be a rather innocuous symbol of personal piety - it is not - it comes with the horrendous baggage of Koranic injunctions and damning Hadiths that categorically relegate women to second class status. Go ahead, wear the hijab but then also abide by the Taleban`s agenda for temptresses, school-girls and house-wives. Turn in your drivers licence and your voters registration card and off with those hip-hugging designer jeans from the Gap ......... now that is a ridiculous sight - hijab weairng Muslimas with mime-shaming make-up and jeans that would make Calvin Klein blush ....

So, wear the hijab all you want, but then don`t whine about getting equal representation, and don`t whimper if your husband of four wives chooses to slap you around a ever Sunday, a little bit, in keeping with the injunction in Surah 4:34..... I have had it with these... these .... binte-Hawa .. silly women ... who put us men to shame with their penchant for self -flaggelation and abuse .... masochists, all of them .... I will have no part of it! Holy Mother of God, Manat, Aisha Bibi, Lakshmi Ji .... guide your daughters before they banish themselves to the Harem, leaving us men sitting around chewing Qat, smoking peeli-pati, drinking bhang and writing bad poems in praise of young boys !

I am sure the poet meant to convey her pride and sense of comfort in her life, through this work, but as a reader what came through for me, was a sense of sadness and despair.

Sadness for someone who seems to have bought the party line in its entirety. Despair because of the self delusionary streak that runs through this piece.

A similar poem could have been written by a slave addressed to another slave struggling to be free, a few hundred years ago. ``Hey, at least I get my meals and massa` don`t flog me too hard, if I bow and scrape enough.``

Lastly, as Shandana and others said, clothes are secondary, and if you indeed are as free as you claim, why do you have to prove it to anyone, let alone, loose, licentious Western women?

What an overwhelming response! When I first read the poem, I consigned it to the part of my psyche that is intolerant of such superficial sentiments about religion, gender roles and society.

But then I read the replies. I do believe we are slowly becoming the vocal - liberal - minority! Chowk readers, you may just return to a tired reader, her faith in all things sensible.

Dear Sister Jazba 69,

Al-hamd-o-lillah, you have spoken the truth before all the `loose character` westerns as to how our sacred Islamic traditions safeguard the moral virtues of the ummah by protecting the hearts of the brothers from shaitan-ir-rejeem`s evil agenda. Truly, the veil is actually a great advantage for women. It is proof positive that Islam actually grants greater advantage to women by putting men at a handicap. Really, think about it. The sisters can see everything from behind the veil, whereas the poor brothers are lost in a guessing game. Imagine the advantage one could have in a game of poker (which only kafirs play astagh-firullah, no Muslim will touch, inshallah) if the opponent could not see the expressions on one`s face. It (the veil) confers the advantage of `stealth` technology to the sisters, such that the radar of the non-pious brothers cannot decipher them. It is a `cloaking device` (which even the klingons emulate). Not only does it protect but also promotes the freedom of women. Yes, sister, al-hamd-o-lillah, you are right. And don`t let these mislead Chowkwala`s get your spirits down. You will have the final laugh in the end. When we meet, inshallah, in jana-tul-firdaus your pious husband will have the company of exactly 72 `hoors` (not to mention the numerous `ghalmaan`), and you, my dear sister, shall be the head of a household where you shall preside over those young boys and the 72 `saukens`. That will be the final reward, a just compensation for inheriting only half as much property as your brother.

Fabay-ayeh-aalaah-e-raab-e-kuma-tu-qazibaan!

…SR

The CASE of the MISSING 30

SR # 22:
and hamidm:

So between you two the market has been cornered?

Alhamdolillah, Astaghfirallah and Begum Hamidullah.

rgds

t

In response to Temporal (#13):

``Your protagonist addressing the western women is too general, too evasive, too inconclusive and too bombastic.``

With all due respect, the poem was not a polemic against Westerne-style feminisim or a Muslim apology on the benifits of wearing hijab.

Rather, the poem conveys a rather healthy (bad) attitude towards those who are intolerant towards the notion of Hijab. This intolerance you may be familiar with (some even witnissed during this InterAct): ignoring what the wearer of the Hijab has to say for herself (yet encouraging them to think for themselves), touting about straw-men arguments involving immodest women in Chadors or tight-jeans, employing cheap polemical devices like drawing a link between the Taliban and the Hijab (i.e. crying wolf, or rather, crying Taliban - a favourite past time of many ChowkWalleh).

And my favourite: scorn of such hijab wearing women for being backwards and unproductive as they don`t seek higher education and employment. When such women do school themselves and seek employment, it is not uncommon for them to run into somewhat hard times because of their appearence (I`m talking about Pakistan here too, not just the Western world). And the response of those who you think would be supportive of them? They scorn and mock the Hijabi`s yet again. ``Well of course no one is going to hire you! Look at the way you look! You`re down-right scary!``. To wit: a recent article in the Dawn by one Irfan Hussain (Mar. 25, Immigration and identity at Eid ).

The Hijabi`s situation is a rather odd one: damned if they do, damned if they don`t. And that applies to about anything they do/don`t.

In any case, you show me a poem which is not too general, too evasive, too inconclusive and too bombastic, and I`ll in turn show you a drab piece of writing. In fact, I`d really like to see a poem which isn`t general, evasive, and the rest of it. Consider it an open challenge! :-)

Take care,

digit

In response to ylh:

``The second example is that of Sister Debbie now Sakina who again is the same. She was a white Caucasian Christian who like all western women detested the Muslim women...``

Woa there. I have to object. I know several Caucasians, Christians to be sure, who are very supportive and understanding towards Hijabi`s, even more so than some non-Hijabi muslimah (who perhaps see the Hijab as an affront to their non-Hijabiness).

I noticed that when these women discussed the issue of the Hijab with the sisters, they truly wanted to understand. They weren`t looking for little tid-bits they could use in half-assed arguments on why the Hijab is evil and why their lifestyle is so much better.

Hamidm

I strongly object to your deliberate maligning of ISLAM .... For god`s sake do not attack Islam unnecessarily basing your entire argument in poorly researched info and knowledge.... the ayah 4 34 has taken quite a beating by now on CHOWK ... but do you seriously think that Islam is by that verse allowing men to hit women around ... I personally think that that particular verse is more in line with adultery and stuff ... also if you read on you will find similar injunctions giving authority to wives to deal with adulterous husbands or rebellious husbands... and the quranic term is ``rebellious husbands`` .... I am sure you will find it if you read ahead in surah 4 al nissa .......

I am ready to answer all of your questions and doubts about innate equality of men and women in Islam .... though there might be a functional difference ... the fact being that YOU Mr Hamidm cant give birth ... whereas a woman can!!!!!!!!!!!

And this remains a fact ....

Listen My own mother is Doctor in Pakistan who doesnt wear the Hijab and I probably wouldnt like it if my wife wore the Hijab but it goes without saying that it is a fundamental right of women to make this choice and this choice has been given to them by Islam!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Time has come for the RIZVI SISTERS TO SPEAK ON THIS ISSUE

SO SAKINA and Sisters where are you?????????????

I have been reading this poem in e-mail forwards for a long time, and I am sure this is not the writers original work. Secondly, I got the notion that the muslim girl in the poem only wears hijab, and does not work. What does that mean, wear hijab and do not work? or if you work, and you are a female, you will become a slut?

#19

Hamid ji, you cracked me up. Hear, hear.

I think the author is being too simplistic in her seeming implication that traditional restraint and disinclination to move among men as an equal can ward off all evils facing a Western woman. There is no acknowledgement of the great evils a Muslim/Eastern woman faces and what women could possibly do about those within or outside of tradition.

That said, I think what began as quest for individual freedom and equality in the 60s? in the West seems to have taken an unintended complexion in the 90s. Womens behaviour and dressing in the West seem sometimes to be more about exhibitionism or even a kind of reverse power play for others benefit than true expressions of their inner selves. And, somehow, men seem to benefit more from individual freedom and lack of social restraints than women. Now why is that? Is it because of underlying Christianity? I feel women are bearing a much greater burden than men in the Western experiments toward a more equitable society.

In Indian philosophy the sanctity of womanhood is held as the fundamental premise of a stable home and hence a stable society, but its pragmatic in that it rewards the woman for taking on the responsibility. She is designated `partner in dharma`, a `preserver of the sacred flame` and a chaste woman is labelled a powerful moral force undefeatable by even the Almighty. So she is included conceptually as beneficiary in the social cost/benefit equation, instead of merely being an instrument. And in my opinion, the cost/benefit equation for society and the individual wrt responsible behaviour is unescapable even today, East or West, man or woman, equal or unequal. The West doesnot have the answers yet(in my opinion)in the right balance of individual freedom and social responsibility and the East has gotten bogged down in political disarray.

Clothes ought not ideally form part of that equation and are overused or misused as political symbols. Sometimes they can be used to affirm important principles. Being allowed to cover themselves was a big symbol of emancipation of women in South India early this century just like coming out of purdah still is for women in North India. But without taking other concrete steps like education and equal civic rights, these `advances` would become meaningless.

Sadhana

I feel either the poetess is fairly young who started taking Hijab (by choice) recently & received criticism or haven’t spent enough time in the practical world to enlighten herself.

(I may be wrong in my assumptions and will look forward to Jazba99’s response} I just hope that she has not consulted Cosmo/Glamour to form an opinion of Westerners.



I can understand the point of view in the first two stanzas, but the subsequent ones lack substance.

Jazba99: You are condemning “the westerners” for going an extra step to be in the race of life. How are you making sure that you are not left behind?

I liked the mention of “I`m a person with ideas and thoughts” but where are those ideas and thoughts being expressed in this poem? Have they been left unsaid to be figured out? Or condemning westerners satisfies the poetess’s concept of “ideas and thoughts”?

- How are you nourishing your thoughts by just keeping yourself in a scarf?

(I am intentionally assuming that you are promoting the Chador and Chaar’Deewari’s Concept. You need to come forward & break the spell of assumptions):-)



Few thoughts from personal observations:

Westerners DO NOT look down upon women who adequately/decently/appropriately cover themselves. They are “usually” under the assumption that Muslim Women are “forced” to wear garbs and do not cherish any personal rights. [Salutes to Talibaan for promoting this image] By saying that “you” have opted for Hijaab on your own, you’ve created a powerful spell. But then you lose the power, from the third stanza onwards.

I am not sure what kind of professions you have come across, but in my experience most of the professional firms in the US (Part of the Western Hemisphere) are conservative when it comes to women’s dress code. I am reminded of a fellow Pakistani woman (a fresh graduate), who was told about the strict dress code at her new worlplace, that included dress-suits (with skirts only). Wearing pantsuit was a big “no-no” in her company. She discovered for a woman to wear pants was equivalent to emulate a man, and that was not acceptable. Such silly notions will only change when there are more women who are in the work-force. We must not forget that all of them are/can be different from each other. I must also mention that “the dress-suits – with skirts” are available in different lengths. It is on an individual (A Westerner and/or an Easterner working in West) what they pick or drop. :-)

Aside from all the critique, I do not see any sadness or melancholy expressed in this poem as pointed out by others. There is an “Alul Aa’lania” pride, which got lost somewhere while throwing “little nuclear bombs” on the Western Women.

Occasionally, the poets/poetesses use metaphors, similes and other expressions to create rhythm and may not exactly mean what the readers gather, but I simply cannot resist pointing out my dislike for the ending couplet.



On a lighter note,

“Azadee-ae-Niswaa’n”

By Poet Laureate

This poem is a modified version of very similar hijab/muslim woman-promoting poems I`ve read in the past.

I`ve been on a few muslim mailing lists for a few years and I know I`ve seen a poem that is at least 80% similar to this one posted on some of those forums before. Your first paragraph strikes me as very very familiar.

As always I`ve found this poem to be reinforcing the stereotypes of what Islam expects from a ``good`` Muslim rather than breaking them. In this one poem it is summarized that the Good Muslim woman should be 1) wearing hijab and 2) staying at home cooking, cleaning and being a ``lover`` to her husband.

Care to explain to me how all this would apply to Hazrat Khadija - first wife of the Prophet who was a businesswoman and employed her husband-Prophet Muhammed to tend to her Caravans being sent to Syria?

a Quote from the poem:

``Always jumping to the male agenda,

Competing on his terms.

No job share, no creche facilities,

No feeding and nappy changing amenities.

No time off for menstrual pain-

``hormones`` they laugh ``what a shame.``

No equal pay for equal skill-

Your job they can always fill.

No promotion unless you`re sterilised.

No promotion unless you`re sexually terrorised.

And is this liberation?``

Hate to break this new revelation to you, but have you as a woman ever been to a crowded Pakistani market? If not, I`d like to let you know that many of our honourable brothers in the land of the pure take great pleasure in ``pinching`` certain body parts of those burqa-clad Muslim sisters they respect so much. But I guess that doesn`t qualify as sexual harrassment in your books...

Everything else is a gross misrepresentation of expectations for a woman in the western working world. Most likely written from a Muslim woman who`s never worked in the western world.

As it is the whole ideal of the best Muslim woman being one who stays at home tending to the children is myth propogated by muslim men interpreting religon with their bias. I`ve read the Quran back to back more than once and no I don`t see any requirements for woman staying at home anywhere. Yes men are required to provide for their families to the best of their abilities, but that by the same token doesn`t preclude women from working.

The whole stay-at-home mom arguement will become useless really fast once the family hits financial hardship.

This ideal can only work if muslim society just consisted a population comprising middle class to rich people with a stable predictable economy. And the women of that society had no other ambitions other than tending to their offspring till they leave the nest.

As always this is a completly baseless assumption and it can be shown time and time again that even the women in the Prophet`s life didn`t conform to this ideal, let alone anyone else.

I agree there are prevailing stereotypes in the west pertaining to Muslim women. Poems like these don`t help to remedy that. Before reading this, a westerner may think that a muslim woman is only physically controlled by the men in her life. After reading this, he/she can see that in addition, the muslim woman`s mental and social spirit is also controlled by the men in her life.

And I would think that is very sad.

Regards,

Fozia Zaidi

In response to Bina (#1):

``So you cover your head and don`t work. Does that make you any better than your Muslim sister who doesn`t wear hijab and chooses to work?``

Did she say that? Did she imply that?

No. The attitude conveyed by the poem was not the most mature or refined, but in light of the nonsense she must put up with it`s quite understandable.

Perhaps it`s Jazba`s way of giving the finger to all of those who criticize her for being a hijabi *inspite * of what it means to her, while *forcing * upon her their interpretations of what the Hijab ``really`` is.

``This poem is ridiculous. Please find something more interesting to say, something that goes beyond this juvenile and regressive obsession with women`s appearances, ``covered`` or otherwise.``

Okay, now I await your response to all those chowkwalleh who have drawn a simultude between the author`s Hijab and slavery, or other such nonsense. Or, is that a tolerable ``juvenile and regressive obsession with women`s appearances, covered or otherwise``?

I definitely sense a double standard from those who lambast the author yet remain silent in face of the outright abuse she has received from other less fair-minded chowkwalleh. But then again, we shouldn`t be surprised as this *is * how liberalism is commonly practiced here.