Pssst...This is Rest of South Asia speaking

Ref krashid #: 226

When you say ``As you mentioned in your post that non Muslims are not allowed in Mecca and Medina. That is purely religious``, can India exclude Muslims from Ayodhya (the birthplace of Ram) or Mathura (the birthplace of Krishna) on purely religious grounds? Since every incoming passenger`s baggage is checked in Saudi Arabia to ensure that no other religion`s artifacts (books auch as the Bible or pictures of Hindu gods) can be brought into any part of Saudi Arabia, can India prohibit worship of non-Hindu gods, let us say, symbolically just in its capital city, thus shutting down Jumma Masjid? Is only your religion superior to the rest and can only your religious places remain uncontaminated by people of other faiths?

You say ``Otherwise you know non Muslims particularly Indians are scattered all over the middle East without any problem`` but I met an Indian who claimed he had to go to Mecca on his contract (this was made known to him after he landed in Saudi Arabia) and the local mullah forcibly pronounced him to be a Muslim and made him go to Islamic classes. He couldn`t do a thing about it because his passport had been impounded by his Saudi employer. Of course, he hates Muslims with a passion now.

You say ``You have to read history of Muslim rule in India or Turkey or Iran or Syria so on and so on, to see a Muslim mind`` but I just see one fact that sticks out clearly. If Muslims are in a minority, there is always somebody to claim that Islam is in danger but if they are in the majority, every sort of discriminatory rules are passed against the minorities.

I still don`t see a single Muslim condemning Farangi_Kush for his practically crowing that his kind have a right to travel from Chechnya to the Philippines when all you can see in the Philippines is the taking of hapless hostages by Muslim thugs (call them freedom fighters if you want to) and denying medical treatment to an elderly woman. Do you think a single Indian will uphold, in this forum or any other forum, the burning of widows with their husbands like you see Muslims advocating putting your women behind the veil? If they do, I will be the first one to mock them by offering the Vedantic Electric Crematorium.

Re: Rachna #222

If you`ve got the time to go over (or have gone over) 1800 chowk messages, I`ve got one message for ya: Get a life.

Noticed your grouping of all madrassah bashers, even though you use a different name.

Harimau!

As you mentioned in your post that non Muslims are not allowed in Mecca and Medina.

That is purely religious.

Otherwise you know non Muslims particularly Indians are scattered all over the middle East without any problem.

You have to read history of Muslim rule in India or Turkey or Iran or Syria so on and so on, to see a Muslim mind.

Rachna re:222

Well, I appreciate being nominated where I was.. now I need to aim for more knowledge! :-)

Re: Jay # 212

Jay, I try to keep my posts limited, and if I entered into a chronology of Pakistani histrograhy, I will be penning long posts and given the attention span of most people, they will simply gloss over it! :)

However, to give you a little insight, there is a growing number of people who are acutely aware of Pakistan`s dilemma and who are revisiting Pakistan`s past to discover just how we painted ourselves into a corner. The Pakistani public is extermely prone to wishful thinking, because that is one, immutable, factor in their miserable lives, which has remained as a constant throughout Pakistan`s meanders of historic revisions and declining economic fortunes. For the average Pakistani, there is nothing worth while to look forward to, but to a false sense of hope, which makes the utter depressing reality of his existence bearable in hopes that tomorrow, will not necessarily be better, but it will be the same.

It is really difficult for us, Pakistanis, to review and understand our past history, because we do not know what our past history is! I once asked bahmad to define the idea of what is Pakistan and the evolution of its raison d`etre, after his passionate post. Where is his reply; why is he so silent on this question?

Pakistanis know that storm clouds are gathering, but they are not willing believe in the signs of the approaching calmity. I have been saying this on Chowk for a long time, to all concerned, that if you really wish to understand the Pakistani political landscape, try reading Alice in Wonderland, especially the chapter on the Mad Hatter`s Dinner Party.

Pakistan (Alice) lives in a wonderland of its own creation and imagination (disillushionment, not reality). Pakistan believes in an Orwellian version of 1984, because it is afterall, the perfect personifcation of Kafka`s The Trial. If you have a sense of humor, you can replace 1984 with The Animal Farm, and you have the best Cliffnotes to understanding Pakistan.

Let me give you an example. Did you know that Rehman Report on the dismemberment of Paksitan does not exist in its true form; it has been altered. There were three copies of the report made; one for the Supreme Court`s own records; one for the Defense Ministry and one for the Prime Minister`s office, but none for the Paksitan Army. Why? Why the Pakistani Army not involved in East Pakistan?

Anyways, when Rehman submitted his reports to ZAB, ZAB being the clever politican asked if there was a draft version and when told there was, asked for all four; three copies plus the draft report. It remained with him and could only be read, ``by the special permission of the prime minister``. After his ouster, the rediscovered report was found to be changed and this was admitted by the Secretary to the Supreme Court who had helped Rehman compile it in the first place.

What happened to the original? Only ZAB knew what had really happened and what was in it and he took that secert with him to his grave!

What historic continuity are you refering to? :)

Hope this helps, bro!

Ciao!

WITHOUT PREJUDICE

For fun only:

I have gone through hundreds (about eighteen hundred) of letters on the Chowk since October, 1999.

I have noticed that we can nominate writers on Chowk for various titles and based on qualities and characteristics to assign or accord recognition to posters on the Chowk. I have come up with the following:

1. Most persistent, incessant, indefatigable: Mohajir, McGupta, Sadna. Tops. Sadna

2. Most Patient: Umairr, Sameer, Assad_K, bahmad. Top: Umairr

3. Most ``true believers``: committed, with knowledge. Farangi_K, Hamidm, krashid, ylh, Zeemax, Sadna, Jay, Gynosophist, Jumhuriat_: Top. A tie among Farangi_K, hamidm and Zeemax.

4. ``True Believers without much knowledge``: RSexana, concerned, AD, ZZ, the Happy One, In your Face. Add lot more and choose.

5. Critics: Temporal, Observer, Sheesh Nag, (?), Be-nam, S.P. Wakil. Top: temporal

6. Most Disruptive: Jay (by acclamation!)

7. Most ``reproducer`` of copied material (from newspapers, articles, etc.): Mohajir, McGupta, Umairr, Ras Siddiqui, Sadna. Top: McGupta and Mohajir (a tie!).

6. Gentlest, most civilized, posterers: I, of course; sac, everybody in #2 above, Be-nam, Pardesi, Dulla Bhatti, Fuzair (most/some of the time): Top: I, of course. (You want to make something out of it?) O.K. Umairr!

You disagree? Well, come up with additions or substractions. Or, lists based entirely on different criteria.

Cheers!

Ref xxyz #: 218

When you ask ``Do you people have any shame or civility left in you? At all?``, let me point out that if you jumped in in the middle, you are going to lose the context. I refer to my post #176 in the board ``To Western Woman`` (and the follow-ups to it). After you read that, and after you read the positions Farangi_Kush has taken on a variety of issues, you can talk about what is the worse shame: keeping 50% of your population illiterate and underprivileged for the crime of being born a female or mocking it.

Farangi_Kush claims unbridled right to travel from Bosnia to the Philippines. The implication of course is carrying guns and bombs. Can he (and you who jumped in now) explain why somebody from East Punjab then should be required to produce a passport and a visa to visit his ancient village and few remaining relatives in West Punjab? Because terrorism is the right of the Muslim Ummah but a Sikh should not be able to freely visit his holy shrines in Lahore?

Exactly what are the passport and visa requirements for making the Haj pilgrimage even for a Muslim? Would I, a Hindu, be allowed entry into Mecca or Medina? Yet Farangi_Kush claims free transit for terrorists.

Who has no shame? I, who point out the contradictions of your thought processes or you, who are mouthing standard phrases here?

Where is the civility in holding German tourists, including a desperately ill woman, hostage? Where is the civility in taking hostages in Kashmir and delivering a severed head? Where is the civility in killing thousands of Shias in Mazar-e-Sharif for the crime of being Shias? Where is the civility in the killings in the Imambaras and mosques of Pakistan?

Farangi_Kush is likely to tell you to get back inside your burqa and shut up. I have the courtesy to engage you in debate.

#211

``... a plague... .``

Placque is usually found on teeth and arteries.

POW`S

India has an old habit of holding prisoners of war and memory holding poor defeated souls in 1971 still haunts the Pakistani psyche. That was a cruel, unnecessary excercise and it certainly did not add to India`s prestige. If the Government of India does not have the magnanimity to make a settlement on Kashmir it can at least initiate an unconditional release of POW`s. I am certain Pakistan will instantly reciprocate if it does not the chowkwallas will declare Gen Musharraf ``Muatil`` - i.e suspended....!

POW`S

India has an old habit of holding prisoners of war and memory holding poor defeated souls in 1971 still haunts the Pakistani psyche. That was a cruel, unnecessary excercise and it certainly did not add to India`s prestige. If the Government of India does not have the magnanimity to make a settlement on Kashmir it can at least initiate an unconditional release of POW`s. I am certain Pakistan will instantly reciprocate if it does not the chowkwallas will declare Gen Musharraf ``Muatil`` - i.e suspended....!

Ref Farangi_Kush #: 204

Wow! All that talk about the bumblebee`s flight characteristics and the male seahorses carrying the babies! Where did you learn these facts? In a Western-style school where they follow textbooks written by scientists who spend their time thinking about science? Or, is it magically revealed in the Qur`an, as people make fanciful claims about the revelations in Qur`an about the human fetus? If this information is not in the Qur`an, don`t you think we should ascribe them to Allah and forget about trying to figure out how these things work? Allah gave us two legs to take us everywhere and we should not be flying in a fancy Airbus or 747 on our Haj to Mecca. Maybe a camel for those who are infirm but the rest of us can and should walk to Mecca. After all, did the Prophet use a nuclear bomb against the infidels? Why should Pakistan have a nuclear weapon, the invention of not just the satanic West but of Jewish scientists, to boot?

Wow, how on earth did you get to that moral about democracy? That took a more fanciful flight than that of the bumblebee.

When you say ``If the nation,country,state is capable of fending off nosy neighbours then as far as outsiders are considered it is a private matter.The ability of a nation to keep the tresspassers in check AND if need be to keep flexing its muscles is the only test of its robustness.Let the crows caw but they must do outside the fenced area & they should be reminded so once every so often and if need be by illuminating a few hills``, I haven`t heard a more beautiful decription of what the Great Satan is doing to Iraq. You WERE talking about Iraq, weren`t you?

When you say ``Trying to show birth certificates to prove ones existence only makes you an electronically chained slave in the`modern` world.Those who do not subscribe to such planned nonsense,move about freely & never encounter any barriers(borders) from Bosnia to Phillipines.

Such `facilities` are only for the `educated```, I guess your theory of my-dick-is-my-passport may work on the Pak-Afghan land border but if you try to fly into any other country`s airport they check more than the dick and the beard length before they let you into their country. They expect you to have a passport AND a visa.

I am glad you have included the Philippines in you range of countries. Is this to show approval for the kidnapping of German tourists? Should the German women be treated as booty and distributed among the captors? Should the menfolk be killed first so that now you can show compassion to the widows and take them into your household as sex slaves? Or, does the order between widowhood and sexual slavery not matter?

Can I invest money in the chastity belt so that you can buy them for your daughters?

By the way, what do you think of the statement: If God wanted us to be in burqas, we would be born that way?

Asma Jahangir reports that there are 143 Pakistani POWs in Indian prisons, and 54 Indian POWs in Pakistani prisons.

May 10 Headline in The News: 143 Pakistani PoWs in Indian jails, says Asma

May 10 Headline in IndiaExpress: 54 Indian POWs languishing in Pak jails

I found the juxtaposition of headlines rather amusing.. I guess it may have been coincidence, since the report in IndiaExpress was quoted from George Fernandez`s report to parliament, and the one from The News was from a press conference after her return from India. The IE report didn`t, though, make any reference to Pakistani PoWs.

AKHAND BHARAT,

At last akhand bharat is a reality and the hindu funadamentalists are rejoicing.

from hindustan times,

They’re young, illiterate and ruthless...

HT Correspondent

(New Delhi, May 12)

IN SMASHING the network of the Bangladeshi criminals, Crime Branch officials are reported to have stumbled upon a unique modus operandi employed by these cross-border gangsters. Young, illiterate, daring and ruthless, the nine came to the Capital every few months from Khulna in Bangladesh.

“Before we caught them it was learnt that five gang members were staying in five different flats in Delhi. It was only when they were trying to shift their residence that we were able to track and then finally nab them,” said the Assistant Commissioner of Police (Anti-robbery section), Mr H.P.S. Cheema.

Said Additional Commissioner of Police (Crime) H.S.Brar, “The gang would enter the house like burglars. Usually the AC duct was used as an inlet. Once inside they would tie up the inmates with bedsheets and then begin looting.”

“If any member tried to resist the attempt, like in the West Punjabi Bagh incidents,” said Mr Brar, “the gang members showed no hesitation in opening fire.” “It was difficult for the gang to carry cash when they were crossing the border. By using the hawala route, the money would be delivered there safely by the time the gang crossed over,” he said.

“The entire gang, operating in Delhi for the last three years, moved from Bangladesh after an interval of 4-6 months, committed a series of robberies and dacoities here and then returned to lie low,`` the Addn CP said.

This is reported to have sent many an official off their scent and they would return only when the pressure has died down.

PAKISTANI FUTURE,

Ferozk,

Your posts make a persuasive reading, but lacks considerations of historical continuity while peering into the future of Pakistan. The great-man theories are dead, there is no Ataturk in the horizons, The great CE has turned out to be a wimp, no one cares about the nuclear black mail. It is disheartening that hardly any pakistani can see the storms in the horizon, the distant thunder of the coalescing forces of world opinion. The pak news papers are full of articles, taliban is caused by the Americans, how the word terrorism needs a new definition, how the true friend has been betrayed by the Americans, how bad is the human rights situation is in Kashmir. There is no realisation what so ever that the world has changed, it is an ‘unjust’ world.

It might be appropriate at some stage for the Pakistanis to have a look at their own country as an outsider. It is a country where a group of heavily armed jihadists occupied borders and pounded the neighbouring country with artillery. The prime minister of the country after signing a historic peace accord also authorised, allegedly, armed intrusion. There was a coup by the military chief to save the country. Two non military ex-prime ministers have been declared corrupt and are sentenced. An aircraft is hijacked, secures the release of pakistanis in indian prison and they land in pakistan while the hijackers vanish in the pakistan border. Chechnian jihadic leader is in pakistan raising funds. The country has nuclear bombs and it has missiles and wants to be considered seriously. The country wants support from the world so that it wont go further into an extremist islamic state.

Pakistan is like a dwarf, dressed like a giant, trying to menace people in the town square, with an alleged nuclear weapon under the intoxication of an islamic elixir. The crowd around has only a few options. The commonly used imagery in pakistan is the amputation, amputate the hands, the legs so that the body can’t come together again. That is the fragmentation option. Or remove the gun, throw a net around and leave him there. That is the Iraqisation option.

There can be a third option, that is to rehabilitate the poor soul. That need some noble souls, some one of the same values, some one who had been there and come out. Above all it needs a realisation he is only a dwarf.

This is the age of euthanasia, the age of Retalin, the age of instant gratification.

Wake up, smell the reality.

To paraphrase Nehru:

...Kashmir wants independence; Kashmir demands freedom and Kashmir will be free!

Since everyone here is so keen on the future on the Kashmiris and who has their best interests at heart, can either Indians or Pakistanis ask the Kashmiris this question and get their answers on the topic?

Everyone thinks that they know what is best for Kashmir, but what do the Kashmiris think?

India, Pakistan or independence?

Ideology or reality in heavan or hell?

There is a growing sense of alienation and resentment in Kashmir and as far the Kashmiris are concerned, both Islamabad and New Delhi are equally to be blamed for their state of agony and misery.

What did Shakespear say:...a plaque on both your houses...!

Ciao!

When you are saying that Amnesty International is not allowed in Kashmir by India because it investigates human right violations only.

And that is exactly the reason of not allowing the foreign observers all along.