Harish Nambiar May 1, 2000
#157 Posted by bahmad on May 10, 2000 10:28:00 pm
Anees Jillani`s opinion piece ``Smiling Dead Donkey`` is another strong critique of our state, ruling elite, and the unjust and uneven development. This piece once again reminds us that we have failed to sustain our national cohesion. It clearly demonstrates that we have failed to priorize the rights of ``all`` Pakistani people and territories. Is there any way that we could avoid the negative consequences of such policies? What do we need to do to reverse the process of Pakistani national disintegration? Comments welcome.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
The News International; Opinion
May 10, 2000
Smiling dead donkey
Anees Jillani
A farmer recently buried his donkey just a few miles outside Quetta. The owner appears to have a sense of humor because he has buried his pet in a standing position rather than in a reclining one, in such a fashion that the head is above ground. Everyone, hopefully, would appreciate that a dead donkey`s ears are likely to drop; the farmer has slipped two sticks in the ears to keep them propped up and has put a cigarette in the donkey`s mouth.
``What is all this about?`` I asked the owner during my last week`s visit to Quetta. My dead donkey symbolises the rulers of Pakistan who have no concern whatsoever for the drought in Balochistan and who continue to enjoy the good things in life.
I had gone to Quetta to attend a meeting of Balochi politicians. It was an eye-opener for me; and my first reaction after hearing them for the whole day was that Balochistan appeared to me like a giant glacier which was slowly but gradually sliding away from Pakistan. If anyone feels that this is a strong assessment, then all one has to do is to read former chief minister, Nawab Akbar Bugti`s interview to the Sunday Jang magazine (May 7) in which he alluded to the possibility of establishing a Free Balochistan if matters do not improve in the federation of Pakistan.
The May 2 Quetta meeting was attended, among others, by former chief minister Sardar Akhtar Mengal; president of Balochistan National Movement Dr Abdul Hayee Baloch; PPP leader Jam Jamali and Khudai Noor Khan of the Jamhoori Watan Party. There were many other former MNAs, MPAs, and senators present at the meeting. There was almost a unanimous feeling of deprivation and resentment that Balochistan despite being Pakistan`s largest province, consisting of about 43 per cent of the total territory, has constantly been given a stepmotherly treatment; and the recent drought is simply another of its manifestations. Speaker after one another expressed the fear that since Balochistan represents only five percent of Pakistan`s total population, therefore, it would never be able to get its share of kitty from the federation under the present order of things. It was acknowledged that a 10-kilometre road could cover hundreds of thousands of persons in the Punjab but may cover only a few thousand in Balochistan and thus the federal government would always be reluctant to support one. The province would never be able to carry weight in the National Assembly since the seats are distributed on the basis of population.
Akhtar Mengal, despite being cautious, called for enactment of a new constitution as the present one under suspension since October 1999 has clearly failed. Others at the meeting were not so revolutionary in their calls for changes but the anger could be felt. One participant, however, went overboard as he pronounced that Pakistan died in 1971 and no longer exists as such. The whole scenario also presented another interesting fact that should have been an eye-opener for the politicians. Once the floor was opened for discussion, nearly every participant representing man on the street deplored the state of democracy during the past 15 years and severely criticised the politicians for their mismanaged rule. What had they done for the masses during their tenures? The military government may not be doing much either but how is it different from the civilian ones and thus what entitles the politicians to criticise it?
This is in fact the key issue that is also playing havoc with the fate of Nawaz Sharif and which is proving to be a big hindrance in galvanising the masses to come out on the streets. The people may not be happy with the military taking over the country`s affairs but they were also dejected with the civilian rule. The governments have failed and this is perhaps an indication that the system of present governance in the country has deteriorated beyond redemption.
This analysis is of no help to the masses in Balochistan. One has to visit the province to appreciate the lack of development in that vast land. Punjab, particularly Lahore or Rawalpindi, appear Paris compared to Quetta. The province is physically isolated and no attempts have been made to integrate it with the rest of the country. The airfare is beyond the reach of the middle class what to talk of the poor masses. Roads are virtually non-existent and take a long time as they are unnecessarily long. The railway is unreliable all over the country and so Balochistan is no exception. The national media, both electronic and the print, seldom cover Balochistan unless a disaster hits the province, like this drought, a mine accident or a bomb explosion. The population of Balochistan is hardly represented in Pakistan`s bureaucracy and there are seldom any federal secretaries from there. The province has one of the biggest gasfields in the world in the shape of Sui but a few thousand in Balochistan enjoy its supply. It has a big coastline but no worthwhile sea port.
The federal government of Pakistan chose Chagai to conduct its nuclear test without taking the people of Balochistan into confidence and now thousands are migrating from there due to lack of water. The Balochis now ask, ``Do you want us to lick the Chagai mountain models installed all over the country?`` Is there any other proof needed to prove the step-motherly treatment?
There was nothing stopping the rulers of Pakistan to consider establishing small dams or water reservoirs in the area. No-one has ever contemplated introducing any sort of a canal system there. I recently met an international water management expert who said that great civilisations have perished in the past due to lack of water and nothing is stopping this phenomenon to repeat itself in Pakistan. What are we doing to prevent this from happening? Another seminar or a People`s Assembly?
Ninety-eight per cent of the Pakistani males have moustaches but we do not appear to be growing up. Is it lack of iodine in our food since Pakistan is also one of the most iodine-deficient countries in the world? We have lost one half of Pakistan in December 1971 but we appear to have learnt no lessons. How and when would we learn? It has been 29 years since the Bangladesh debacle and we still debate whether the Hamoodur Rehman Commission report should be made public? It would probably contain nothing substantial which has already not been revealed but the fact that we still have not done it goes to show that something somewhere is wrong. The way the Balochi nationalists nowadays speak would have been more difficult during a democratic setup. This is for the simple reason that politicians regardless of whether in power or not have some stake in the system. Now they are totally alienated and they have nothing to gain from the present system. What is thus stopping them from taking extreme positions? A populace never rebels for the passion for attack but from the impatience of suffering.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
The News International; Opinion
May 10, 2000
Smiling dead donkey
Anees Jillani
A farmer recently buried his donkey just a few miles outside Quetta. The owner appears to have a sense of humor because he has buried his pet in a standing position rather than in a reclining one, in such a fashion that the head is above ground. Everyone, hopefully, would appreciate that a dead donkey`s ears are likely to drop; the farmer has slipped two sticks in the ears to keep them propped up and has put a cigarette in the donkey`s mouth.
``What is all this about?`` I asked the owner during my last week`s visit to Quetta. My dead donkey symbolises the rulers of Pakistan who have no concern whatsoever for the drought in Balochistan and who continue to enjoy the good things in life.
I had gone to Quetta to attend a meeting of Balochi politicians. It was an eye-opener for me; and my first reaction after hearing them for the whole day was that Balochistan appeared to me like a giant glacier which was slowly but gradually sliding away from Pakistan. If anyone feels that this is a strong assessment, then all one has to do is to read former chief minister, Nawab Akbar Bugti`s interview to the Sunday Jang magazine (May 7) in which he alluded to the possibility of establishing a Free Balochistan if matters do not improve in the federation of Pakistan.
The May 2 Quetta meeting was attended, among others, by former chief minister Sardar Akhtar Mengal; president of Balochistan National Movement Dr Abdul Hayee Baloch; PPP leader Jam Jamali and Khudai Noor Khan of the Jamhoori Watan Party. There were many other former MNAs, MPAs, and senators present at the meeting. There was almost a unanimous feeling of deprivation and resentment that Balochistan despite being Pakistan`s largest province, consisting of about 43 per cent of the total territory, has constantly been given a stepmotherly treatment; and the recent drought is simply another of its manifestations. Speaker after one another expressed the fear that since Balochistan represents only five percent of Pakistan`s total population, therefore, it would never be able to get its share of kitty from the federation under the present order of things. It was acknowledged that a 10-kilometre road could cover hundreds of thousands of persons in the Punjab but may cover only a few thousand in Balochistan and thus the federal government would always be reluctant to support one. The province would never be able to carry weight in the National Assembly since the seats are distributed on the basis of population.
Akhtar Mengal, despite being cautious, called for enactment of a new constitution as the present one under suspension since October 1999 has clearly failed. Others at the meeting were not so revolutionary in their calls for changes but the anger could be felt. One participant, however, went overboard as he pronounced that Pakistan died in 1971 and no longer exists as such. The whole scenario also presented another interesting fact that should have been an eye-opener for the politicians. Once the floor was opened for discussion, nearly every participant representing man on the street deplored the state of democracy during the past 15 years and severely criticised the politicians for their mismanaged rule. What had they done for the masses during their tenures? The military government may not be doing much either but how is it different from the civilian ones and thus what entitles the politicians to criticise it?
This is in fact the key issue that is also playing havoc with the fate of Nawaz Sharif and which is proving to be a big hindrance in galvanising the masses to come out on the streets. The people may not be happy with the military taking over the country`s affairs but they were also dejected with the civilian rule. The governments have failed and this is perhaps an indication that the system of present governance in the country has deteriorated beyond redemption.
This analysis is of no help to the masses in Balochistan. One has to visit the province to appreciate the lack of development in that vast land. Punjab, particularly Lahore or Rawalpindi, appear Paris compared to Quetta. The province is physically isolated and no attempts have been made to integrate it with the rest of the country. The airfare is beyond the reach of the middle class what to talk of the poor masses. Roads are virtually non-existent and take a long time as they are unnecessarily long. The railway is unreliable all over the country and so Balochistan is no exception. The national media, both electronic and the print, seldom cover Balochistan unless a disaster hits the province, like this drought, a mine accident or a bomb explosion. The population of Balochistan is hardly represented in Pakistan`s bureaucracy and there are seldom any federal secretaries from there. The province has one of the biggest gasfields in the world in the shape of Sui but a few thousand in Balochistan enjoy its supply. It has a big coastline but no worthwhile sea port.
The federal government of Pakistan chose Chagai to conduct its nuclear test without taking the people of Balochistan into confidence and now thousands are migrating from there due to lack of water. The Balochis now ask, ``Do you want us to lick the Chagai mountain models installed all over the country?`` Is there any other proof needed to prove the step-motherly treatment?
There was nothing stopping the rulers of Pakistan to consider establishing small dams or water reservoirs in the area. No-one has ever contemplated introducing any sort of a canal system there. I recently met an international water management expert who said that great civilisations have perished in the past due to lack of water and nothing is stopping this phenomenon to repeat itself in Pakistan. What are we doing to prevent this from happening? Another seminar or a People`s Assembly?
Ninety-eight per cent of the Pakistani males have moustaches but we do not appear to be growing up. Is it lack of iodine in our food since Pakistan is also one of the most iodine-deficient countries in the world? We have lost one half of Pakistan in December 1971 but we appear to have learnt no lessons. How and when would we learn? It has been 29 years since the Bangladesh debacle and we still debate whether the Hamoodur Rehman Commission report should be made public? It would probably contain nothing substantial which has already not been revealed but the fact that we still have not done it goes to show that something somewhere is wrong. The way the Balochi nationalists nowadays speak would have been more difficult during a democratic setup. This is for the simple reason that politicians regardless of whether in power or not have some stake in the system. Now they are totally alienated and they have nothing to gain from the present system. What is thus stopping them from taking extreme positions? A populace never rebels for the passion for attack but from the impatience of suffering.
#156 Posted by anamika on May 10, 2000 10:28:00 pm
Re Umairr #152
Methinks fundamentalism and intolerance have been mainstreamed and, therefore, no special need for religious parties. How else do you explain the viciousness against the ahmedis?
Methinks fundamentalism and intolerance have been mainstreamed and, therefore, no special need for religious parties. How else do you explain the viciousness against the ahmedis?
#155 Posted by bahmad on May 10, 2000 2:52:19 pm
In response to Ferozk (Reply # 144)
Your statement: “The west may demand democracy, but democracy in Pakistan is meaningless, without true economic reforms.
Comment: Given that the West’s insistence upon democracy may (perhaps would) lead to both positive and negative consequences, democracy is never meaningless unless it is somehow made meaningless through both intended and unintended actions. Pakistan needs to get out of its colonial-autocratic fold. One reasonable strategy is to pave the way for the gradual establishment of the fundamental rights of the common people through the reform of our elitist, corrupt, centralized, authoritarian, and unresponsive state institutions. The present military regime is not without vested personal and institutional interests as much as the politicians or the businessmen/feudals do. Pakistan’s dilemma is of economic, political and social nature. Hence, we need to work simultaneously in each of the three spheres.
Your statement: “Pakistan should just admit the American ``tilt`` towards India and get on with its own domestic agenda in isolation with the rest of the world.”
Comment: An apparently reasonable statement/perspective. But, what domestic agenda? What kind of implementation with what kind of effects?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
Your statement: “The west may demand democracy, but democracy in Pakistan is meaningless, without true economic reforms.
Comment: Given that the West’s insistence upon democracy may (perhaps would) lead to both positive and negative consequences, democracy is never meaningless unless it is somehow made meaningless through both intended and unintended actions. Pakistan needs to get out of its colonial-autocratic fold. One reasonable strategy is to pave the way for the gradual establishment of the fundamental rights of the common people through the reform of our elitist, corrupt, centralized, authoritarian, and unresponsive state institutions. The present military regime is not without vested personal and institutional interests as much as the politicians or the businessmen/feudals do. Pakistan’s dilemma is of economic, political and social nature. Hence, we need to work simultaneously in each of the three spheres.
Your statement: “Pakistan should just admit the American ``tilt`` towards India and get on with its own domestic agenda in isolation with the rest of the world.”
Comment: An apparently reasonable statement/perspective. But, what domestic agenda? What kind of implementation with what kind of effects?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#154 Posted by bd on May 10, 2000 2:52:19 pm
Dear All,
on a slightly off-topic post, is there any chowkwallah/walli who would be able to guide me on the modalities / logistics / economics of setting up an offshore software development centre in Lahore? The software will be targeted towards banking and financial applications. I understand that there are sufficient programmers/developers who can write the code, but I have a question about the availability of suitably qualified people who can be banking analysts, quality assurance specialists and the like who can guide and translate banking mission critical application design, development QA and release. My personal experience/information is about 6-7 years old, when this kind of personnel were not available, but I hope this situation has changed.
I can take this offline as well, if required. I will highly appreciate any help/pointers/web sites/info. I apologise if this is inappropriate in any way.
Sincerely
bd
on a slightly off-topic post, is there any chowkwallah/walli who would be able to guide me on the modalities / logistics / economics of setting up an offshore software development centre in Lahore? The software will be targeted towards banking and financial applications. I understand that there are sufficient programmers/developers who can write the code, but I have a question about the availability of suitably qualified people who can be banking analysts, quality assurance specialists and the like who can guide and translate banking mission critical application design, development QA and release. My personal experience/information is about 6-7 years old, when this kind of personnel were not available, but I hope this situation has changed.
I can take this offline as well, if required. I will highly appreciate any help/pointers/web sites/info. I apologise if this is inappropriate in any way.
Sincerely
bd
#153 Posted by Umairr on May 10, 2000 2:52:19 pm
gymnosophist #152: My knowledge of pre-Partition distribution of assembly seats is quite limited, so I cannot comment one way or the other on your comment.
The point I was trying to make is that within Pakistan, the religious parties have absolutely no vote base. The question of having any kind of a majority in any kind of an assembly does not even come into existence. They can barely win a single seat. The other point I was trying to make is that in terms of numbers, the religious parties have a very very small following (w.r.t. the total population of Pakistan). However their following is very very dedicated.
Thus they have a lot of street power, since dedication is the name of the game there. They do not have voting power, since numbers is the name of the game in elections.
To compare this to the creation of Pakistan does not make any sense to me. I suppose a Shia or Sunni religious party could demand their own state from Pakistan. However they would not have the people following to support it (the sectarian religious groups don`t even have as much following as the mainstream religious groups). So a very very small minority of the Shias or Sunnis would follow these parties in their independence quest. The overwhelming majority of Shias and Sunnis in Pakistan would not follow these parties, neither on a regional level nor on a national level.
If a major portion (for the sake of argument, lets say 30%)of a minority sect (say Shias) demanded their own country from Pakistan, and they were the majority in a certain geographic area, then I would have to say they would a legitimate right to pursue something like that (at least in my opinion). On a principled basis, I would certainly support it; even though I am a Sunni Muslim.
However, the important point to remember is that even mainstream Pakistani religious parties (what to talk of extremist ones) do not enjoy a strong voter base. Also, none of the religious parties want their religious factions to break away from Pakistan. All they want is to turn all of Pakistan in the direction of their interpretation of Islam, by gaining political power.
The other point to remember is that it is human nature to want to live in large groups. There are too many advantages of doing so. Ideally speaking, the whole world should be one country, as in Star Trek. People only want to break-off into their own countries, when they feel they are being extensively discriminated against by the majority. They reach a conclusion that they have more to gain by being separate than by remaining a part of the unit (as in the case of Bangladesh or Kashmir or Pakistan, for that matter). Almost always the majority is unwilling to give the minority there self-determination right, and hence violence occurs. Except in nations with a strong human rights record like Canada, usually the minority has to fight and die to get this right.
Democracy by its design, is based on the idea of the majority imposing their will on the minority. Because of this, true democracy only occurs in places like the US where it exists in a pluralistic form, with a strong judicial system to protect the rights of minorities. That is why Muslims (and Hindus) living in the US, will never demand their own country inside the US. The benefits they get from being a part of the whole in the US, far outweigh the benefits they would get from being independent.
The Pakistani religious parties also want their religious groups to be part of the whole of Pakistan. They just want to take Pakistan in a different direction. They will not be able to do that through elections, although they maybe able to do that indirectly, if the economic situation of Pakistan does not improve.
The point I was trying to make is that within Pakistan, the religious parties have absolutely no vote base. The question of having any kind of a majority in any kind of an assembly does not even come into existence. They can barely win a single seat. The other point I was trying to make is that in terms of numbers, the religious parties have a very very small following (w.r.t. the total population of Pakistan). However their following is very very dedicated.
Thus they have a lot of street power, since dedication is the name of the game there. They do not have voting power, since numbers is the name of the game in elections.
To compare this to the creation of Pakistan does not make any sense to me. I suppose a Shia or Sunni religious party could demand their own state from Pakistan. However they would not have the people following to support it (the sectarian religious groups don`t even have as much following as the mainstream religious groups). So a very very small minority of the Shias or Sunnis would follow these parties in their independence quest. The overwhelming majority of Shias and Sunnis in Pakistan would not follow these parties, neither on a regional level nor on a national level.
If a major portion (for the sake of argument, lets say 30%)of a minority sect (say Shias) demanded their own country from Pakistan, and they were the majority in a certain geographic area, then I would have to say they would a legitimate right to pursue something like that (at least in my opinion). On a principled basis, I would certainly support it; even though I am a Sunni Muslim.
However, the important point to remember is that even mainstream Pakistani religious parties (what to talk of extremist ones) do not enjoy a strong voter base. Also, none of the religious parties want their religious factions to break away from Pakistan. All they want is to turn all of Pakistan in the direction of their interpretation of Islam, by gaining political power.
The other point to remember is that it is human nature to want to live in large groups. There are too many advantages of doing so. Ideally speaking, the whole world should be one country, as in Star Trek. People only want to break-off into their own countries, when they feel they are being extensively discriminated against by the majority. They reach a conclusion that they have more to gain by being separate than by remaining a part of the unit (as in the case of Bangladesh or Kashmir or Pakistan, for that matter). Almost always the majority is unwilling to give the minority there self-determination right, and hence violence occurs. Except in nations with a strong human rights record like Canada, usually the minority has to fight and die to get this right.
Democracy by its design, is based on the idea of the majority imposing their will on the minority. Because of this, true democracy only occurs in places like the US where it exists in a pluralistic form, with a strong judicial system to protect the rights of minorities. That is why Muslims (and Hindus) living in the US, will never demand their own country inside the US. The benefits they get from being a part of the whole in the US, far outweigh the benefits they would get from being independent.
The Pakistani religious parties also want their religious groups to be part of the whole of Pakistan. They just want to take Pakistan in a different direction. They will not be able to do that through elections, although they maybe able to do that indirectly, if the economic situation of Pakistan does not improve.
#152 Posted by InYourFace on May 10, 2000 2:25:41 pm
Observer #140
Very eloquent, articulate but based on wrong reading of the article, like a true pakistani (or a closet pakistani). Do you guys put on some kind of special filtering glasses while reading some thing either it is current events or history. You start out calling somebody `bevqoofa` and ask the other guy not to be `insulting`. That`s soo reasonable.
Your arguments:
``all these nations and their national leaders have their respective skeletons in their own closets.``
What kind of skeletons do you see in India? India/Indian media would like to know. India is one of the most transparent societies... everything is out in the open. The bad and the ugly is always in the open. In fact, India is the most criticized (internally and externally) country. That`s part of the democratic ethos.
``When you look at India and Pakistan you won`t find much difference between the two. We, in India, simply go by a few more shibboleths and designations than the Pakistanis do.``
If there is no difference, is that good or bad in your opinion? India is not ``truely democratic``, not `` truely secular``, and family planning policies were worse than China. Based on these arguments I don`t know whether you are critisizing India or Pakistan. You are correct, India is not truely democratic (there should be more decentralization), not truely secular (Supreme Court should decide on Babri/RamJanam Bhoomi, Minorities/Majorities should not be appeased, casteism should be socially eradicated by education) and definitley should improve on family planning policies (Improving female literacy as in Keral). SO, WHAT``S PAKISTAN DOING ABOUT THESE PROBLEMS).
``And of course there was blood and mayhem, but very little as a proactive action; most of it was as a reaction, much later in the summer, to the East Punjab situation, which WAS ethnic cleansing of Muslims in earnest.`` THOSE FILTERING GLASSES I WAS TALKING ABOUT ... VERY APPROPRIATE HERE. ``THOSE HINDU BANIAS ARE NOT HUMANS, YOU SEE.``
`` It appears that Pakistan has been as much of a ``Secular`` State as India has been, ...``
Wanna bet? Show me any mention of the word `muslims` in derogatory manner in mainstream Indian press, unlike in Pakistan where it is acceptable for civilized people to tolerate decsptions such as `Hindu Bania`s, `viley Hindus` and worse.
Frankly, I could care less, if Pakistan is better/worse than us ... the borders as they stand now, WILL STAND. NO AMBUSHES, NO HIJACKINGS. THAT``S THE ONLY PROBLEM I HAVE WITH PAKISTAN. As far as India`s societal ills are cocerned, we will evolve, but that`s least of your problems.
Because, you claim to be an Indian, I accept your critisizm and ask you, how can we fix these problems? LEAD, FOLLOW or GET OU OF THE WAY.
Very eloquent, articulate but based on wrong reading of the article, like a true pakistani (or a closet pakistani). Do you guys put on some kind of special filtering glasses while reading some thing either it is current events or history. You start out calling somebody `bevqoofa` and ask the other guy not to be `insulting`. That`s soo reasonable.
Your arguments:
``all these nations and their national leaders have their respective skeletons in their own closets.``
What kind of skeletons do you see in India? India/Indian media would like to know. India is one of the most transparent societies... everything is out in the open. The bad and the ugly is always in the open. In fact, India is the most criticized (internally and externally) country. That`s part of the democratic ethos.
``When you look at India and Pakistan you won`t find much difference between the two. We, in India, simply go by a few more shibboleths and designations than the Pakistanis do.``
If there is no difference, is that good or bad in your opinion? India is not ``truely democratic``, not `` truely secular``, and family planning policies were worse than China. Based on these arguments I don`t know whether you are critisizing India or Pakistan. You are correct, India is not truely democratic (there should be more decentralization), not truely secular (Supreme Court should decide on Babri/RamJanam Bhoomi, Minorities/Majorities should not be appeased, casteism should be socially eradicated by education) and definitley should improve on family planning policies (Improving female literacy as in Keral). SO, WHAT``S PAKISTAN DOING ABOUT THESE PROBLEMS).
``And of course there was blood and mayhem, but very little as a proactive action; most of it was as a reaction, much later in the summer, to the East Punjab situation, which WAS ethnic cleansing of Muslims in earnest.`` THOSE FILTERING GLASSES I WAS TALKING ABOUT ... VERY APPROPRIATE HERE. ``THOSE HINDU BANIAS ARE NOT HUMANS, YOU SEE.``
`` It appears that Pakistan has been as much of a ``Secular`` State as India has been, ...``
Wanna bet? Show me any mention of the word `muslims` in derogatory manner in mainstream Indian press, unlike in Pakistan where it is acceptable for civilized people to tolerate decsptions such as `Hindu Bania`s, `viley Hindus` and worse.
Frankly, I could care less, if Pakistan is better/worse than us ... the borders as they stand now, WILL STAND. NO AMBUSHES, NO HIJACKINGS. THAT``S THE ONLY PROBLEM I HAVE WITH PAKISTAN. As far as India`s societal ills are cocerned, we will evolve, but that`s least of your problems.
Because, you claim to be an Indian, I accept your critisizm and ask you, how can we fix these problems? LEAD, FOLLOW or GET OU OF THE WAY.
#151 Posted by sadna on May 10, 2000 1:27:29 pm
PM #141
I do remember your original questions, havenot found answers, could have speculated out loud in friendlier surroundings :-).
Sadhana
I do remember your original questions, havenot found answers, could have speculated out loud in friendlier surroundings :-).
Sadhana
#150 Posted by sadna on May 10, 2000 11:12:06 am
Umairr #142
I`m willing to believe in anyone who says that most Pakistanis are not `ultra-religious` and religious organisations will never gain power through elections.
I thought thats precisely why I asked, why Khaled Ahmad`s column in the The Friday Times based on Inayatullah`s expressed opinions ? I am assuming both are senior columnists. Are they both off the mark in your assessment?
Sadhana
I`m willing to believe in anyone who says that most Pakistanis are not `ultra-religious` and religious organisations will never gain power through elections.
I thought thats precisely why I asked, why Khaled Ahmad`s column in the The Friday Times based on Inayatullah`s expressed opinions ? I am assuming both are senior columnists. Are they both off the mark in your assessment?
Sadhana
#149 Posted by gymnosophist on May 10, 2000 11:12:06 am
Ref Umairr #: 142
You said {I will try to analogise this to something that may fit into an Indian environment. Suppose their was a Muslim or Christian religous party in India that had a following of a million people. It could not and had never had won any seats. However, its members were so committed to their leadership and their cause, that they would lay down their lives at the signal of their leaders. The remaining 999 million Indians may not care for this party. However can you imagine the kind of havoc such a party could cause, if it came out on the street for religious causes, without any fear of death. Theoratically, it could violently pit the Muslims against the Hindus.}
Why analogise? Why propose plausibilities? Just look back to the 1940`s and a party called the All-India Muslim League. And the Direct Action Day of 1946. Consider the fact that the Muslim League NEVER won a majority of the seats in the Punjab Legislature.
Umairr, Umairr! Don`t tell me you are subtly telling the people on this board that the creation of Pakistan was evil.
;-)
You said {I will try to analogise this to something that may fit into an Indian environment. Suppose their was a Muslim or Christian religous party in India that had a following of a million people. It could not and had never had won any seats. However, its members were so committed to their leadership and their cause, that they would lay down their lives at the signal of their leaders. The remaining 999 million Indians may not care for this party. However can you imagine the kind of havoc such a party could cause, if it came out on the street for religious causes, without any fear of death. Theoratically, it could violently pit the Muslims against the Hindus.}
Why analogise? Why propose plausibilities? Just look back to the 1940`s and a party called the All-India Muslim League. And the Direct Action Day of 1946. Consider the fact that the Muslim League NEVER won a majority of the seats in the Punjab Legislature.
Umairr, Umairr! Don`t tell me you are subtly telling the people on this board that the creation of Pakistan was evil.
;-)
#148 Posted by sadna on May 10, 2000 11:12:06 am
temporal #134
Commendable wish list. Now if that strike planned on 19th May was to demand `` A compulsory and free education say upto Matric level for every Pakistani`` instead of `religious` concerns about blashpemy, that would really be something.
Thats how priorities are usually set, unfortunately, who makes the most noise.
PM #141
``IMHO, what`s missing (on your part) is an appreciation of the true disenchantment of the Pakistani people (generalizing here of course) with the electoral process, of their depth of hoplessness in change from within, given the structural political realities; and of a situation in which one simply chooses between the (presumably) least of many evils.``
PM, I`ve been told about it plenty of times. I read it in the papers everyday. What I don`t get is how can any amount of true disenchantment solve anything? Crossing of a million fingers and attempting mindcontrol of leaders from a distance also seems a infeasible solution.
Sadhana
PM, temporal, if you go back to my post 131, you`ll see a smiley face there, indicating I was JOKING!! ``vicious propanganda`` is a favourite term of both Indian and Pakistani governments which they keep throwing at each other, I thought someone would pick up the connection :-(!
Commendable wish list. Now if that strike planned on 19th May was to demand `` A compulsory and free education say upto Matric level for every Pakistani`` instead of `religious` concerns about blashpemy, that would really be something.
Thats how priorities are usually set, unfortunately, who makes the most noise.
PM #141
``IMHO, what`s missing (on your part) is an appreciation of the true disenchantment of the Pakistani people (generalizing here of course) with the electoral process, of their depth of hoplessness in change from within, given the structural political realities; and of a situation in which one simply chooses between the (presumably) least of many evils.``
PM, I`ve been told about it plenty of times. I read it in the papers everyday. What I don`t get is how can any amount of true disenchantment solve anything? Crossing of a million fingers and attempting mindcontrol of leaders from a distance also seems a infeasible solution.
Sadhana
PM, temporal, if you go back to my post 131, you`ll see a smiley face there, indicating I was JOKING!! ``vicious propanganda`` is a favourite term of both Indian and Pakistani governments which they keep throwing at each other, I thought someone would pick up the connection :-(!
#147 Posted by bahmad on May 10, 2000 11:12:06 am
In response to Umairr (Reply # 142)
Dear Umair:
Interesting analysis! You tend to argue that: (1) the religious parties are very organized; (2) the membership of the religious parties is prepared to even die for its cause (supposedly Islam/Jihad/etc.); (2) the religious parties have considerable street power (ability to stage demonstrations/protests); (3) the religious parties have much nuisance value. You also seem to distinguish between various religious parties. Hence, you oppose the extremist religious parties. Please inform us: Which parties (religious or otherwise) are extremist? Extremist (in what sense)? Is Jamaat-e-Islami an extremist party? If yes, why do you have some inclination toward Qazi Hussain? What kind of support base is there in the army for Jamaat-e-Islami and other religious parties? How about organizations, like the PIA, the Pakistan Steel Mills, Wapda, etc.
I know, you prefer Imran Khan. What prospects are there for Imran Khan to develop an overt/covert alliance with one or more religious parties (extremist or otherwise)?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
P.S. It seems that you have drawn broad generalizations in your post. You need to specify both social and spatial/geographic dimensions of Pakistani politics. This would bring you close to the ground reality, I think.
Dear Umair:
Interesting analysis! You tend to argue that: (1) the religious parties are very organized; (2) the membership of the religious parties is prepared to even die for its cause (supposedly Islam/Jihad/etc.); (2) the religious parties have considerable street power (ability to stage demonstrations/protests); (3) the religious parties have much nuisance value. You also seem to distinguish between various religious parties. Hence, you oppose the extremist religious parties. Please inform us: Which parties (religious or otherwise) are extremist? Extremist (in what sense)? Is Jamaat-e-Islami an extremist party? If yes, why do you have some inclination toward Qazi Hussain? What kind of support base is there in the army for Jamaat-e-Islami and other religious parties? How about organizations, like the PIA, the Pakistan Steel Mills, Wapda, etc.
I know, you prefer Imran Khan. What prospects are there for Imran Khan to develop an overt/covert alliance with one or more religious parties (extremist or otherwise)?
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
P.S. It seems that you have drawn broad generalizations in your post. You need to specify both social and spatial/geographic dimensions of Pakistani politics. This would bring you close to the ground reality, I think.
#146 Posted by jay on May 10, 2000 11:12:06 am
prime cause, from jung,
Defence budget draws attention of experts
By Asim Hussain
LAHORE: Non-productive defence expenditures, blanket subsidies, oversized government and military establishments, unrealistic tax system, corrupt tax administration and non-transparent fiscal matters have been identified by the leading national and international experts as the main reasons for the chronic financial deficit in Pakistan.
The following was not legible in the jung report, but any how is reproduced with some verve.
`` what else remains in a country on which the future can be built``, the experts pondered. The pak govt official responded. We have 40,000 madrassa that train a deciplined army of jihadists and soon they will be like the gurkhas of nepal, serving all over the islamic world. There are always opportunities and those derived out of religious revivalism are grossly overlooked. If india can export computer programmers, the modern day rubber tappers and cane cutters, why cant pakistan create a new world profession out of jihadists, you may call them mercenaries of islam, so what, it is a profession, it provides employment and are in demand. Let the market forces decide. A little of religious capitalism will help this country.``
IMF is considering a soft loan to support education in pakistan. Why bother, some official asked.
Defence budget draws attention of experts
By Asim Hussain
LAHORE: Non-productive defence expenditures, blanket subsidies, oversized government and military establishments, unrealistic tax system, corrupt tax administration and non-transparent fiscal matters have been identified by the leading national and international experts as the main reasons for the chronic financial deficit in Pakistan.
The following was not legible in the jung report, but any how is reproduced with some verve.
`` what else remains in a country on which the future can be built``, the experts pondered. The pak govt official responded. We have 40,000 madrassa that train a deciplined army of jihadists and soon they will be like the gurkhas of nepal, serving all over the islamic world. There are always opportunities and those derived out of religious revivalism are grossly overlooked. If india can export computer programmers, the modern day rubber tappers and cane cutters, why cant pakistan create a new world profession out of jihadists, you may call them mercenaries of islam, so what, it is a profession, it provides employment and are in demand. Let the market forces decide. A little of religious capitalism will help this country.``
IMF is considering a soft loan to support education in pakistan. Why bother, some official asked.
#145 Posted by jay on May 10, 2000 11:12:06 am
MYTH OF MODERATE PAKISTAN,
There are a lot of educated pakistanis who believe in the above myth. It is primarily based on their personal experiences, they find their friends and relatives are moderates, does not support the extreme religious views. But the fact is they are in a pigion hole of their socio- economic determinants, talking to the birds of the same feather. One has to look at the collective.
Gen Musharaff has such wide ranging military and public support. Could not change the honour killing laws.
Again, he wanted an administrative change to the blasphemy law implementation. He could not.
Now the look at the mirror my great pakistani moderates, what you see is solidified delusion. Or the above laws represent the moderate views.
What could be an extreme pak view, not many live to know it, Katyal should have known.
There are a lot of educated pakistanis who believe in the above myth. It is primarily based on their personal experiences, they find their friends and relatives are moderates, does not support the extreme religious views. But the fact is they are in a pigion hole of their socio- economic determinants, talking to the birds of the same feather. One has to look at the collective.
Gen Musharaff has such wide ranging military and public support. Could not change the honour killing laws.
Again, he wanted an administrative change to the blasphemy law implementation. He could not.
Now the look at the mirror my great pakistani moderates, what you see is solidified delusion. Or the above laws represent the moderate views.
What could be an extreme pak view, not many live to know it, Katyal should have known.
#144 Posted by rsaxena on May 10, 2000 11:12:06 am
There are indeed attrocities being committed in Kashmir.
http://www.jammu-kashmir.org/KIN/Atrocities/index.html
http://www.jammu-kashmir.org/KIN/Atrocities/index.html
#143 Posted by rsaxena on May 10, 2000 11:12:06 am
Re: Observer #140
You write: ``When you look at India and Pakistan you won`t find much difference between the two.``
Oh really? No difference except for one is nearly bankrupt and about to default on loans, has no exports or growth industries to speak of, has no world class educational institutions, is associated the world over with nothing other than terrorism (India has been associated with poverty but now increasingly with hi-tech supergrowth and cheap software engineers), has most foreign governments talking down to it, has to fear its own religious parties, and overall is on the verge of being declared a failed state. Even by some of its own citizens. So, no difference between the two except for these marginal ones. Great analysis.
You write: ``When you look at India and Pakistan you won`t find much difference between the two.``
Oh really? No difference except for one is nearly bankrupt and about to default on loans, has no exports or growth industries to speak of, has no world class educational institutions, is associated the world over with nothing other than terrorism (India has been associated with poverty but now increasingly with hi-tech supergrowth and cheap software engineers), has most foreign governments talking down to it, has to fear its own religious parties, and overall is on the verge of being declared a failed state. Even by some of its own citizens. So, no difference between the two except for these marginal ones. Great analysis.
#142 Posted by rsaxena on May 10, 2000 11:12:06 am
Re: Observer #140
Sir,
Please learn to read carefully and don`t get overcome with emotion so easily. As I state at the very beginning, that article is not written by me but by a PAKISTANI journalist in a PAKISTANI newspaper. Now put your tail between your legs and stop jumping around accusing Indians of this and that. In case you still don`t get it (you seem to be a bit slow), it was a PAKSITANI who wrote that article!
Have a good day (although I doubt you will given that that article touched off a raw nerve -- the truth hurts for a while). Try at least.
Sir,
Please learn to read carefully and don`t get overcome with emotion so easily. As I state at the very beginning, that article is not written by me but by a PAKISTANI journalist in a PAKISTANI newspaper. Now put your tail between your legs and stop jumping around accusing Indians of this and that. In case you still don`t get it (you seem to be a bit slow), it was a PAKSITANI who wrote that article!
Have a good day (although I doubt you will given that that article touched off a raw nerve -- the truth hurts for a while). Try at least.
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