Mecca or Mohenjodaro?

ZZ

You are right about blasphemy laws etc.

If you remember, the days of Zia-ul-Haq, and how religion was played. (I would joke at that time that there would be Mohammed Night Club and Ali Pub, to Islamize them).

If you see recent slight change in blasphemy law and reaction of Islamist to them, you will realize the gravity of situation.

What is the outlet.

I think, the best way to deal with this situation is counterargument in their own field and education.

Like how many people did Prophet PBUH killed to ridicule him.

It does not mean ridiculing a prophet PBUH or for that matter Jesus PBUH etc is justified. There are laws in other countries, I think even in UK also. So sensibility of people should be taken into account. But you are right, it is being used to take revenge on opponent, which basically negates the purpose of the law.

There needs to be a need for drastic changes.

Is it possible.

With a weak Pakistan. NO.

Because most of these parties like TNFJ, etc etc are funded by foreign aid or have a great influence of foreign countries.

And with current enviornment with a poor economic situation, there is no way they can be curbed.

If the arguments instead of ridiculing these parties are presented in a more proper manner, probably that will be more appealing.

Ali 1

Visit Iran.

You will be surprised.

Why does it have to be one or the other? Both Makkah and Mohenjodaro have played an important role in the making of Pakistani culture. Its fine with me if someone wants to over-emphasize one or the other.

RMS (whatever that stands for) Azam is at his pathetic worst when he insults the Mohenjodaro civilization. Dear RMS, could you tell us of a single Islamic country which has ALL its streets paved and has public rooms and where all houses are made of pucca bricks?

MECCA AND MOHENJODORO, FOR THAT MATTER ANYTHING NON-MUSLIM.

fROM FRIDAY TIMES

Hack and hill



Sir,



For several years now there has been ruthless stone crushing on the Margalla Pass, next to Nicholson`s Monument (erected in 1868). Continued activity has led to the destruction of nearly half of this small yet historic range. The ancient gateway to the Frontier province has been eaten away.



Now, upon driving through the pass and viewing the other side, one is confronted with the horrific image of a towering hill laid bare. Like a landscape from a film set, the remainder (i.e. the side one can see upon going into the Taxila area) is a mere illusion. This is environmental crime of the worst kind. Our heritage is being destroyed by rapacious individuals. They are not censured or punished. You can plant trees but you cannot rebuild a hill. All those Pakistanis who have silently witnessed the gradual devastation of this natural landmark are culpable. This is the kind of apathetic attitude that will lead to the desertification of Pakistan, and we will witness the frightening consequences that will follow.

Dear shakir69

Absolutely no offence taken. Instead, please accept my good feelings and apologies. (I am a little too wild sometimes!)

I agree with you - the discussion on Moenjodaro is so interesting that I don`t want to detract from it either.

So just to answer the points you made:

When I said western trained, I mean that the individuals who have studied banking have studied a system that is western. I have studied in Pakistan as well. As is the case with so many of us, we studied books that are based on western academics. That makes me ``western trained`` as well. This has neither `good` nor `bad` intrinsic value. What I DO with it - that is what determines good the studies were for me.

One always has to look to experts in their respective fields if one is to learn. That is why I looked to individuals who knew something about Islamic banking for information.

There is probably a lot of truth in the idea that the oil-rich shaikhs are using it to their advantage.

On the other hand there is the example of Malasia, where it has been quite successful in its implementation.

More information can be had from the writings of Mohammed Arif of the University of Malaya.

arun, Fuzair has an excellent post (#124) on the realities of Islamic banking as practiced by a bank in Karachi. I cannot improve on that description - in fact I learned something from it(!)

However, Fuzair, this does not address whether the Islamic Banking is at fault. It sounds more like the inadequacies and greed of the bankers in question.

In any case, as I said before: This is a question of two different approaches. And the one that will have to adapt will have to be the Islamic Banking system. How it will do so is the question.

best regards.

Tibor

Although your arguments as a difference between secular and faith based Government as far as human rights are concerned appear valid on paper but reality speaks against it.

Compare Islamic Republic of Pakistan with secular India.

As far as minorities are concerned in Pakistan, I think if they were not happy they would have migrated to India long ago (because of their small numbers)

The minorities particularly in Sind interior are quite well off.

They come to medical colleges, Engineering Universities and other places on merit cum quota and get job in Government as well as private sector on merit.

The other minorities which are away from mainstream Islam like Agha Khani, Bahai, Parsis etc are quite well off communities.

So it is a myth being propagated to you, probably to justify the much worse treatment of minorities in India.

Why Kashmiris are being targetted by India. What is happening in Assam. What is happening in Srilanka to prevent Tamil movement from spreading to India. Babri mosque incident is a tip of iceburg as far as Indian secularism is concerned.

Why every neighbour of India hates India.

Why every neighbour has good relations with Pakistan except India.

Just think and then decide.

As far India going to be a superpower is a big myth. Probably India`s greatness is more in your minds. Otherwise India is at the verge of collapse as a nation. If you are doubtful, wait.

The golden days for India are gone. The way secularist fascism is practiced in India, it will lead to alienation and disintegeration of India.

Ursturly Reply #: 119

Every government based on religion throughout history has been evil. What does religion provide poeple? Answer to all that can`t be explained by existing theories and understanding. The purpose of religion is to provide people a phony sense of security and self-worth.

God/Religion ``I have all the answers. I will test your faith in me and judge you accordingly. I am above all and hold no other God above.``

So what does this mean? Any goverment based on the princples of religion, that believes it is exists for and by God`s mandate must punish all who do not adhere to the governments interpretation of God/religion/faith/worship/good/evil. All non-believers must be converted and if they don`t cooperate, apply coercive methods.

Didn`t the Phrophet decree a special tax for all non-muslims? Tolorence....I have yet to see from any religious government.

And to your question what does it matter if India turns into a Hindu nation. We do care about our minorities.

Re: Sherdil #112 and other posts

And now also the answer to Macgupta`s excellent question of how the heck do you profit-loss share a house?

So, Sherdil, how exactly does Islamic banking differ from venture capitalism? I have a good idea and no money, you have money and no good ideas, lets get together and make some beautiful financial music together.

So, if the islamic banking system is so much better than interest based banking, why isn`t the entire Western banking system all venture capitalist?

I realize that there are different forms of Islamic Banking--mudaraba and musharika and muwhatnot, having mugged this tripe up to pass the Pakistan Institute of Bankers exam, I promptly forgot it all--but to ask friend Macgupta`s superb question how do I get me a home mortgage?

Actually, darn, it all just came flooding back to me. I have to finance my house. I sell the bank the house for X rupees. I buy the house back from the bank for X+y rupees. I make payment to the bank for n years until I have paid the entire sum off. You notice how Islamic all this is? The entire sale and buyback transaction is done right there and the bank transfers the ``sale`` funds to my account and I keep making my monthly ``buyback`` payments.

But, you ask yourself how is the ``y`` to be determined. ``y`` is the Islamic markup or service charge and we used a very Islamic method to calculate it. When I was a banker (Islamic of course) in Pakistan, the State Bank of Pakistan set the minimum and the maximum ``service charge/markup`` we could levy--from to 10% to 20%. Ultra bluechip customers got 10-12%; the norm was about 16 and the real credit risks (comparatively speaking of course, the real deadbeats went straight to HBL or NDFC or BEL, etc, and got their billions) got the full 20% interest, excuse me, service charge.

Our policy was to calculate ``y`` at the full 20% and then give a prompt payment rebate if monthly payments were made on time. So if you borrowed Rs100,000 for one year at a markup of 12%, you signed a sale and buyback agreement for Rs120,000 with a prompt payment rebate of Rs8,000. And the b *st *rd goras said that Islamic banking would never work! Hah! Piffle to them!

In theory, you could not charge markup on markup (i.e., no compounding so a five year loan would be at a sale and buyback price of `X+5y`) but we did that of course for all contracts if the client was late on his payments. However, you could not get back more than the agreed upon buyback price in case of loan default.

So my friends, that is how you get a house mortgage in Islamic Pakistan.

Remind me to tell you, some other time, of some legal (just not ethical) ways to bribe customers. In my naivete, I was quite shocked when I discovered this but I soon realized that this was how even the most ethical bankers did business in Pakistan. BTW, ours was a very fine old foreign bank and, then at least, probably one of the cleanest ones in Pakistan.

``When I have ceased to beat my wings,

Against the fruitlessness of things,

Then life will have shown me the Truth,

and taken from me, in exchange, my youth.``

TTFN

urstruly # 119

You said ``If India becomes a true Hindu country I think it wont matter to anyone``.

What essentially you are saying is that Pakistani Muslims don’t give a damn about 150 million Indian Muslims who will be treated like second class citizens (and please don’t start argument that they are second class citizens now). Ofcourse you do care about 7 million Kashmiri Muslims since championing their cause potentially can add real estate to Pakistan.

On the other hand, why should it be surprising? You have never cared about Pakistani Muslims (Biharis) trapped in Bangladesh since 1971!

RE: Tibor # 107

No it`s not absurd.

As a matter of fact it makes perfect sense. If India becomes a true Hindu country I think it wont matter to anyone. But there is one thing I don’t understand when you say that

``And should it become overtly Hindu, enact Hindu laws, make laws that state the the head of the state has to be a Hindu, make laws that non-Hindus can`t represent Hindu constituenties, and direct complete neglect for anything left by past muslim ruler.``

Are you implying that Hinduism in its nature is just like Islam in Pakistan. Or you are implying that all religions bring forth the same results when instituted as national ideologies. Would you please care to explain.

RE: Fairdinkum # 113

It is called POISONING THE WELL- TACTIC. Allow me to elaborate. In the old days retreating armies used to pour poison in the wells, ponds, and other water sources so that the advancing army would not be able to make use of them. In logic and in philosophy we refer to this phrase when we describe a situation where a person prepares the mind of his audience by talking about his counterpart on seemingly unrelated issues before presenting his actual argument. So when actual arguments are presented the audience has already prejudiced and biased their minds (unintentionally).

So when you say that `` However, I doubt that Mr. Azam would agree with you there. He is coming from an outlook where truth is absolute, permanent, and unalterable. Any attempt to question his perception of truth amounts to kufr.``, you are speculating grossly. However, your speculation, intentional or unintentional, serves one purpose- it takes the objectivity out of the discussion by ``poisoning the well``.

I agree with you on one thing that Azam should have used a different tone and language while mentioning the indigenous cultures.

Best regards

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/news3a.htm

``To elaborate the point I gave examples from our textbooks, about how history has been distorted and how things have worsened over the years. I recalled how my senior colleagues tell me that in the late fifties, full ten years after independence, some of their examination papers were set in India, their thesis teachers used to come from India, how Radio Pakistan could air Indian film songs until the early sixties, how Indian films were shown in Pakistani cinema houses, how we had the privilege of learning history in an impartial manner, with details on the reigns of early Hindu period of Ashoka and Chandargupt Moriya, etc. But then we closed the door on us and insulated ourselves in order to conform everything, including history, to our own mental constructions. I tried to show that much of what is taught to students nowadays is anything but truth.



``The students are fed on falsity and are taught to hate, I said. Even the most recent history is blatantly distorted. For this I cited some textbooks lessons on the 1965 war, which state that India started the war and attacked Pakistan in the dark of the night. That Pakistan valiantly fought back, winning large enemy territories. India desperately sought international help in stopping the war and Pakistan graciously returned the captured territories. All this against the statements of former PAF chiefs, Nur Khan and Asghar Khan. Linking the state of collective paranoia with nuclear weapons, I quoted a serving Chairman Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee telling my friend Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy some years ago that he would not mind if Indians in retaliation to a Pakistani use of nuclear weapon destroyed all the Pakistani cities and killed millions, as long as Pakistan could harm India in some manner.



``What happened in response to this talk was interesting. A student stood up and berated me for negating the ideology of Pakistan and the concept of jehad (I had neither spoken of the ideology of Pakistan nor of jehad). He insisted that Pakistanis must destroy India even if it meant complete annihilation of Pakistan. What struck me most was the loud applause his statement drew from other students. The student then walked out in protest against my subversive talk. The rest of the students remained seated for another half-hour`s session. The discussion was lively with arguments both for and against my contention. I realised later while talking to a student of mine that the younger people, particularly those who have passed through the mainstream educational system where the state indoctrination is so prevalent, are so heavily conditioned by the textbooks that truth comes to them as an unpleasant shock. This may explain the ovation the student got after my talk. It also expalins why jehad has such a wide approval in society.

Fuzair:#102

Thank you for your reply.

I think we understand each other.I would suggest that we must pay attention to the mood,tone & spirit of a piece of writing,rather than the meanings filtering out because of poor syntax.

(ref. to the `script` passage.Also,perhaps,he means `in contrast to that of hindi or hinvi scripts`).

The fact that if one learned english language in Brit. or Amer. does not necessarily mean that he/she can also write/speak well(just look at the pathetic calibre of some of tft `writings`).The best writers everywhere,in any language,dealing with serious expositions/essays are always from the vernacular/madressah kind of schools.The frangi-fossils( from BA BA Blacksheep schools) always try their `art` in literature,especially in poetry.The `reason` is self-evident.

(Haroon Siddiqui,editor emeritus,at The Toronto Star--Canada`s largest newspaper--studied english at the Urdu University,Haiderabaad,India & speaks it (proud that he his,of course) not with facial contortions but in pristine,original,genuine,tamil/tellugu/urdu ``accent``.The other praised & valued good writers in the Farangi lands are all bestowed with this grace.

The Ba Ba Blacksheep variety are either working as chowkeedaars(security guards),avaazays(tele-marketers) or kababyays(burger-flippers) or mughbachays/chhotay chhokrays(bar-hoppers).

Curse upon Pakistan?

``Burs`` of Inglistaan.

Burs,the white spot disease(leauko-dermia)



I think,and hopefully you`ll concur,that whenever one is discussing something `seriously` then if one is tempted or cannot resist,to pepper it with an irony,sarcasm,or joke,then one must announce thus---`and the irony is` etc.

This is especially true in the written word where gestures & the `background` & the face-reading of the listener(reader) are absent.In `literature` it is fine---it may even lend `prestige` of ambiguity.

``Haale dil likhoon kub tk,jaoon--Un ko dikhlaoon

Uongliaan figaar upnee,khamaa khoonchkaan upnaa``

O for how long more do I have to write my heart`s story.Better I go there and show my flayed fingers and my blood-oozing pen.

M I R Z A GHALIB.



wassalam

Ref fairdinkum #: 115

You say {Saudi Arabia is not representative of Mohammad`s message of Islam.}

Similarly, I have heard the claim that Taliban, though they themselves claim to be the true representation of an Islamic society, is not representative of Islam. Aurangzeb was not. The Shah of Iran was not. Khomeini`s Iran was not. Ghaddafi`s Libya is not. Even Indonesia that rampaged against East Timor was not. Pakistan`s rampage against Bangladesh was not.

Instead of making apologies such as these, for once, I would like you/somebody to trot out an example Islamic society for us to know what a truly Islamic society is like. Other than the Second/Third/Fourth (choose a number here)Caliphate, that is. So that we have some historically accurate records that we can rely upon.

If you cannot, we then seem to have two choices: the first is not to attempt to have an Islamic society but a secular society. The second is to re-define Islam through the process of ijtehad so that the Muslims of the world of the non-Farangi-Kush persuasion can hold their heads high.

Question for Sherdil : what is the equivalent of taking a mortgage to buy a house in Islamic banking ?

In regular banking, if I have sufficient cash flow to make the monthly payments, I can get a loan from a bank to buy a house. It is not a profit-loss thing, it is a place for me to live and to pay rent to myself. Interest is a key part of it. How does it work in Islamic banking ?

Thanks,

-arun

reply to sherdil.

this is my last one. sorry for having hurt your felings. didn`t think i abused you.....just the idea of islamic banking. i never understood why we need islamic banking in light of the view that most countries which are trying to implement this system have no resemblence to islam in its true spirit and i would be talking of Saudia Arabia, GCC countries, Pakistan etc. I doubt that in the time of the Prophet anyone would have understood the complexities of international finance as it exists today. To turn around and say that this is what the Prophet ``would`` have wanted in a stupid statement. Islam is supposed to be an evolutionary and ``real`` religion which implies that we adapt and change with the times rather than resist change and want to take us back to the 11th century. On a another front I would like to point out that i was educated in pakistan which is not part of the ``west``. being presumptuous is a sign of stupidity. on another note it should be noted that the entire islamic banking system was and is designed to oil barons who have certain hypocritical reservations about the western notion of interest while have no problems with johnny walker, the red light district of amsterdam or phuket....

this is my last post on this issue at least.

cheers