Mecca or Mohenjodaro?

A proposal to erect a downtown statue of Mahatma Gandhi father of non violence movement in India has raised the ire of some Pakistani Muslims and renewed controversy over the Indian leader’s legacy. The statue, planned for a pedestrian mall, would be part of the city’s effort to embrace diversity, Mayor Ron Loveridge said.

A statue could help the city heal from racial tensions that have been simmering since the 1998 officer-involved shooting death of a black woman, said Lalit Acharya, a founder of the Riverside Mahatma Gandhi Peace Foundation. Tyisha Miller, 19, was killed by police Dec. 28, 1998, as she sat with a gun on her lap in a locked and idling car in this city 55 miles east of Los Angeles.

The foundation is hoping to raise $150,000 for the statue over a two-year period.

Many Muslims blame Gandhi for failing to prevent the deaths of thousands of Muslims when religious fighting broke out in 1947 as India and Pakistan moved away from British colonial rule. “He was not a hero to everybody,” said Jamil Dada, an investment manager. Religious violence forced his grandparents to abandon their home and business when they fled India for Pakistan, he said. “It’s just going to open a whole can of worms,” he said of the proposed statue. “It would be in Riverside’s best interest to nip this in the bud.” Some 4,000 Muslims who live near Riverside are learning more about the planned statue, said Mustafa Kuko, director of the Masjid and Islamic Center of Riverside.

Loveridge said he will meet with Hindus and Muslims to resolve differences over the statue. “I am not an expert on Hindu-Muslim perceptions of Gandhi,” Loveridge said. “We’re essentially getting people around a table and talking. That is how you resolve conflict.”

Re:ntakely #114

Your argument is clouded with emotions. Saudi Arabia is not representative of Mohammad`s message of Islam.

Re: urstruly #104

Agreed, truth and reality are not absolute. Our understanding of truth evolves with time. However, I doubt that Mr. Azam would agree with you there. He is coming from an outlook where truth is absolute, permanent, and unalterable. Any attempt to question his perception of truth amounts to kufr. Nobody is denying that we don’t have Arab/Islamic influence on our culture…. The main point of contention is the author’s assertion that there are no traces of any other influence except those indicated by the author. The other thing which bothers me (personally) is his attempt to ridicule indigenous cultures.

When he talks about Red Indians of Americas or Aborigines of Australia, he, apart from using the dog-whistle tactic, conveniently fails to mention why, and more importantly how these indigenous cultures were lost to the dominant Anglo-Saxon/Christian culture. And then to, somehow, equate this to Arab/Islamic influence on subcontinent is naive, to say the least. He is not doing a service to Islam or Islamic history by treading this line of argument.

Take care!

The Author has used Mohenjo daro as a surrogate for Hinduism and therefore his real ire is directed at it.As a what would be called Kaffir in Islam-and very proud of it too-I agree with the author without Islam there would be no Pakistan,but this feeling of Umah is puzzling to us kaffirs in India .Why doesn`t it extend to the Bihari`s and Indian Muslims or Kashmiris who wish to migrate to West Pakistan !I have been to Saudi Arabia .To a Kaffir it is akin to the Largest concentration camp one can think of ! it is bereft of civilisation and evcen today cannot be compared to Mohenjo daro.The examples of S.America are telling -is the Catholic church very different from Hitler`s Germany in the extent of killing`s and pogroms of the local people it condoned nay extolled !

and please the Taj is not a Symbol of India .It is only one of the very many which a mature civilisation like the Hindu one has not destroyed !I am afraid the more educated the Pakistanis get the more stupid are the arguments,yes as a converted people they deserve our sympathy ,buteven in Saudia Arabia all non Arab Muslims are looked down as converts -don`t tell this Kaffir they are not i have been there ,seen hell ,and done it !

We`ve sort of sidetracked the Moenjodaro discussion - my apologies for that.

reply to sigalph235 #96

I know! I`m tempted as well! But seriously, this is a question of what is the right way to live one`s life.

Reply to AD # 108 and shakir69 #97

The analogy to gambling is a correct one - this is one of the problems confronting the Islamic banking system. How they propose to deal with it is gone into some length by a number of authors. If interested, you can read them:

1. Interesst free commercial banking - A.L.M. Abdul Ghafoor

2. Works by Siddiqi (1980), pp.219-20 and al-Sadr.

They provide answers to all the questions/statements you posted and analyze some more. I`m not going to paste lengthy paragraphs because I don`t wish to take this discussion board in a tangent. Some short excerpts are posted below however.

Understand that my posts are intended as a means of discussion and not abuse or arrogance. If you or anyone else find me so, then please correct me. At the same time, please note that there are quotes from other people included in my posts.

I put the original question up to anyone who could put holes in the premise that such a system was unworkable. The responses I`ve had are not so much balanced viewpoints as viewpoints from only the conventional banking one.

Understandable. The ones who responded are trained in the western system and can hardly be expected to understand a different system. Hence the quotes in my post from individuals who have trained in the Islamic banking system. They certainly know more than I, and perhaps may even know a few sundry items more than you.

These are two systems that cannot function in the same way. It is the Islamic banking system that has to adapt in whatever ingeneous ways it can to the prevailing system.

Others have defined the problems the present day banking system has with the Islamic Banking system as shown below:

Sir Leigh Pemberton, the Governor of the Bank of England, told the Arab Bankers’ Association in London that:

``It is important not to risk misleading and confusing the general public by allowing two essentially different banking systems to operate in parallel;

A central feature of the banking system of the United Kingdom as enshrined in the legal framework is capital certainty for depositors. It is the most important feature which distinguished the banking sector from the other segments of the financial system;

Islamic banking is a perfectly acceptable mode of financing but it does not fall within the definition of what constitutes banking in the UK;

The Bank of England is not legally able to authorise under the Banking Act, an institution which does not take deposits as defined under that Act;

The Islamic facilities might be provided within other areas of the financial system without using a banking name.``

In the United States, Mr Charles Schotte, the US Treasury Department specialist in regulatory issues has remarked:

``There has never been an application for an Islamic establishment to set up either as a bank or as anything else. So there is no precedent to guide us. Any institution that wishes to use the word ‘bank’ in its title has to guarantee at least a zero rate of interest -- and even that might contravene Islamic laws.``

My original question, again, was: Can this work?

Stick to a discussion and leave the abuse to others.

All this argument about Urdu, supposedly a rough language of army camps and rather low in the hierarchy compared to the elegant Persian spoken in the Mughal courts.

By the way, from what I have read, Urdu is a mixture of several languages with influences from Turkic (not modern Turkish), Mongolian, Persian and of course the precursors of modern Hindi. The word Urdu itself is supposed to mean camp and is related to the word horde (as in the Golden Horde).

Now you guys can get back to fighting over the Islamic heritage of Urdu!

I really wish the Mongols hadn`t converted to Islam and had remained followers of Lamaist Buddhism (as practiced in Mongolia, Tibet, Bhutan, Ladakh, etc.) Then we would all be Budhhists today, truly living a religious way of life, spinning prayer wheels, circumambulating Mt. Kailash and Lake Mansarovar, praying to various deities -- and best of all -- venerating Steven Seagal as a bodhisattva (some Buddhist group in Boulder, Colorado, has declared him to be one, honest) and debating whether Hugh Hefner is Maitreya Buddha (the debate was on at alt.religions.buddha.short.fat.guy). You guys could then fight over the Gandhara/Buddhist heritage vs. the Moenjadaro/Shaivaite heritage as opposed to the current Moenjadaro vs. Mecca fight.

Get a life! Or, at least, a beer!

Dear Sir,

You are wonderful, God bless you

Rahman

Author said [Why is it that the most proud emblems of Pakistan’s heritage are Islamic? The Badshahi Mosque in Lahore or the Faisal Mosque in Islamabad?]

Let me add my two cents worth about Islamabad. I think, the site for Islamabad was chosen to have capital next to the Army headquarters in nearby Rawalpindi and Ayub Khan`s desire to have it near to his hometown of Haripur Hazara might have played some role also. Despite both of these factors, the location of Islamabad in the Gandhara heartland can not be overlooked. The rapid expansion of Islamabad to the southwest direction has made it practically adjacent to Taxila--a new capital adjacent to the old one. There are several popular landmarks, both modern and historic in and around Islamabad. They include Faisal mosque, Taxila Museum, Bari Imam, Golrha Sharif, Rawal Dam, Margila and several modern shopping centers. The place most visited besides shopping centers is, without a doubt, Bari Imam. More people visit there every Thursday than the number of visitors to Faisal mosque during whole summer ( ask hamidm, if you don`t believe me). This is the mausoleum of a Sufi Saint, just like Golrha Sharif. Even among several mosques, the most well-known is ``lal masjid`` at Aabpara. The Imam of this mosque (Maulana Abdullah, killed two years ago in sectarian related homicide) was much more well known than the Imam of Faisal mosque.

Walking in and around Islamabad, one can easily recognize recurring dominant Greek, Persian, Whit Huns, Scythian and Mongoloid features, in addition to Aryans and pre-Aryans, of the local inhabitants. There are certain aspects of heritage which can not changed without genetic engineering.



Author said [Urdu is written in the Arabic script. This is a major contribution. The Urdu language derives primarily from Arabic and Farsi. Farsi itself is based on Arabic.]

Urdu is written actually in Persian script which previously adopted Arabic script. My statement is different than author`s in the same way as English script is based on Roman/ Latin than Phoenician alphabet. Religion is one of the several possible reasons for the adoption of a particular script.

The relationship between Persian and Arabic is much different than between Urdu and Arabic. Persian civilzation was dominant for several centuries over Arabia, under Achamenian kings. Many words in Arabic are actually of Persian origin. The indirect Persian influence came through Torah which was compiled by exilic Jews in Persia. During the first millenium, Arabic was still being influenced by Persian Sasanians, Greek Byzantine and Yemenites from the south. The author does not mention all the historical pre-Islamic influences on the Arabic language just as he ignores all the pre-Islamic basis of Urdu language.

It was almost always two-way street between Persian and Arabic cultures while the modern trend of Arabization of Pakistani culture is a one-way street. That is why, the best one can expect from such unidirectional cultural influences is to become a second-rate Arab.

Persians never completely gave up their culture, niether willingly, nor under duress. Most of the foreigners, the Il-Khanate, the Parthian Greeks, Selucid Greeks or Turkic rulers became persianized very quickly. Similarly many aspects of Persian culture were incorporated into Islamic empires of the Middle East, Steppes and India.

EST Reply #: 95

sherdil

Is it legal in Islam to put money at risk, and then reap rewards ? By not giving interest, but still generating profits, Islamic Banks are simply indulging in dignified gambling, ala equity participation.

If so, then they are violating another rule of Islam it gambling. Some of my muslim friends refuse to invest in the stock market because it is akin to gambling.

According to theory of free markets, it is impossible to make money on the market consistently, ie you take a risk, and you might or might not reap its rewards.

So by telling me that Islamic banking is viable in today`s market, you are simply fooling yourself. This kind of banking is not what Muhammed wanted. This is akin to putting money in a mutual fund, in fact this is the definition of a mutual fund.... instead of giving you interest it is simply increasing the value of your underlying stock, by investing wisely.

So, as someone else already menitoned, stop trying to potray Islamic banking as something that is revolutionary in the feild of finance.

AD

Re: Farangi_Kush #102

I`ll repeat quotation I reproduced earlier:

``Urdu is written in the Arabic script. This is a major contribution. The Urdu language derives primarily from Arabic and Farsi. Farsi itself is based on Arabic.``

Notice that it says clearly: ``The Urdu language derives primarily from Arabic and Farsi. Farsi itself is based on Arabic.``

Notice also that the author referred to the script used by Urdu and the debt owed by it to Arabic in the preceding two sentences. Having disposed of the minor matter of the script, the learned author moves on clearly and unambiguously to the actual origin of the language itself. How you and Shamyl construe the entire passage as referring to the Urdu script and only to the Urdu script is beyond me. The author himself states, ``The Urdu language derives primarily from Arabic and Farsi.`` What you are saying he really means is, ``The script used by the Urdu language is derived mainlyh from Arabic and Farsi.`` I will agree with you, and the author, that the Urdu script is clearly derived from the Perso-Arabic one. I have no quibbles with that statement.

However, the script and the language are two clearly different things. Since the author was schooled in the UK, I assume that he can write English well enough to have said exactly what he means. I ask any Chowk reader to look at the passage and make their own judgement. However, being an ignoramus and clearly unable to understand simple, writen English, I suppose I must defer to learned scholars such as yourself and acknowledge my error (sarcasm and irony again--in case you still don`t get it).

Speaking of sarcasm and irony, I was not defending/apologizing for my actions/statement which is what ``Yaar, mein to sirf mazaakh kar raha tha`` means. I was simply correcting your misapprehension that I was in any way repenting my past. Far from it. I still urge you to look up the meaning of irony. If you don`t actually own a dictionary, there are several available online.

TTFN--Ta Ta [goodbye] For Now.

RE: Fairdinkum reply # 99

The problem with ``TRUTH`` or ``REALITY`` is that they are not ``absolute`` in real world. Your perception is your truth and my perception is my truth. So what exactly is the TRUTH? In order to explore ``truth`` and reach a common consensus, discussion forums, are an excellent tool. That is the place where you find out how other person perceived a certain ``reality`` and how is it different from yours.

You are right when you said that a person should be clear when discussing sensitive issues as religion, culture, races, and nationalities etc. but again the problem is that while discussing these issues it is absolutely impossible to be politically correct. The discussion on these issues needs tolerance and patience.

In my opinion, the best strategy is to consider anybody who puts forward an idea, as honest and politically correct as you consider you are. Given that, I assume that everybody in this discussion forum is honest and smart enough to distinguish between mischief and an honest quest.



If it weren’t a continuity of my argument I would have never written the following paragraph.

You said in your reply that Mr. Azam is not perfect in the dog-whistle tactic yet. May be he didn’t use the tactic deliberately. May be dog-whistle phenomenon comes by default into arguments when we discuss controversial issues. May be he is honest in his convictions. It wouldn’t hurt a bit if we try to understand his arguments in this light.

If Pak is a Muslim country and Islam is the only thing that befine Pak and every other non-Islamic influences are less than peripheral, than is India a Hindu country. And should it become overtly Hindu, enact Hindu laws, make laws that state the the head of the state has to be a Hindu, make laws that non-Hindus can`t represent Hindu constituenties, and direct complete neglect for anything left by past muslim ruler.

Seems absurds don`t it.

You want to deny you history, well go ahead, you will live it again and again and again. History will remember you as an inseclure people.

Made in India, popular in Pakistan

BHAVNA VIJ



LAHORE, MAY 10: Fascination for Indian goods is one reason behind the increase in smuggling of various items, mainly on the Samjhauta Express route. Cosmetics, clothes, movies, posters of film stars, paan leaves, betel nut, saunf (fennel)...you name it and it`s there. All these items -- mostly smuggled -- find their way into Paan Gali of the famous Anarkali Bazaar, Gulberg market and Shahdman market.

``Most of the things are illegally sold since the shopkeepers are supposed to pay tax to the government to sell imported goods,`` says the chairman of Gulberg market, Aafiz Mohmad. But the demand for Indian goods is tremendous and trading in them is extremely profitable, he adds.

Cosmetics are much in demand -- hair oils, fairness creams, shampoos and blackhead removal strips are the most popular. In the narrow Paan Gali -- quite similar to the by-lanes of Chandni Chowk in Delhi -- Indian cosmetics fill the shops.

Bindis are also a rage. ``We cannot use bindis normally, but when we go for parties, bindis -- especially the silver ones -- look really cool,`` says Saima Haider, a college student at Paan Gali.

Then there are video cassettes of the latest Hindi movies being sold on the sly. ``Usually we put a different cover on it,`` says a shopkeeper, removing the cover of a Pakistani Urdu movie to reveal Dilwale Dulhaniya Le Jayenge, one of the more popular films here.

Posters of Shahrukh Khan, Kajol, Salman Khan and Aishwarya Rai are displayed openly. ``These are the most in demand, but I have ordered posters of the new boy, Hrithik Roshan, also. Some youngsters have been asking for it,`` he says.

Among the clothes which are extremely popular here are colourful ``bandhanis from Rajasthan, printed cotton salwar-kameez sets from Delhi, resham (silk) from Varanasi, embroidered chikan suits from Lucknow and dupattas``.

``I love the work on Lucknavi suits and pastel colours look lovely in summers,`` says Mosooda Bano, a housewife shopping at Gulberg market. Inderpal Singh, a Sikh youth, who has a shop in Gulberg, says that his brother has a business in Karol Bagh, Delhi. ``I keep going there to get material from him.`` And how does he bring all that to Pakistan? ``On Samjhauta Express, that is the cheapest and most convenient,`` he adds.

Arshad Khan says he is also going to India next month. ``I am going to get Kashmiri shawls. I believe Shatoosh has been banned there. They are very much in demand here, along with Pashmina shawls. I will get my stock for winter now. I`ll get them at a reasonable price in this season,`` he explains.

However, these traders and shopkeepers are facing a tough time with the government having cracked down on them. ``Either pay taxes or pack up,`` the government has ordered and negotiations are being held with the traders.

``The government says it is losing $ 2 billion every year on account of revenue loss due to smuggling. They have been raiding our shops. For the time being, sale of these goods has become slack,`` says a policeman posted near Shadman market

Urstruly #86

You say:

“You are perfectly right about RMS Azams tactics that he used to write his article. But the question is, how do the dog-whistle tactics make an argument invalid, inaccurate, prejudiced, dishonest, or short-sighted?

I would say that any argument that incites a discussion, has an element of that tactic.”

Unless you are deliberately trying to incite hatred, and intolerance, you will try to make yourself as clear as possible - especially when discussing such sensitive issues as religion, culture, races, and nationalities. Why would “truth “ need dog-whistle tactic? He wants to rustle the grass and see how many snakes will pop their heads up in his support. However, he ain’t that good at using this tactics yet…. Even for this, a certain refinement is needed.

When he says, “We do not see any traces of Mohenjodaro, Ghandara or Harrappa civilization or culture existing anywhere in Pakistan” or when he states, “The mosque, whether it be in any of Pakistan’s four provinces, is the centre of rural life.”….. it does, as Bina puts it, make you wonder whether he actually lives in the same Pakistan as the rest of us do! Perhaps he needs to get out of his Mall Road liars office to notice the influence of these civilizations on the “dominant” culture of rural Pakistan.

Here is an interesting Articles from TFT...I think it`s a good read. If India is proud of Taj Mahal what stoping us to be proud of Taxila, Mohenjo-Daro or Indus Civilization? Any comments...

Rgds

MMz.

Why do we deny our heritage?

Asks Leon Menezes

As a nation, we have been long been battling to establish a collective identity - both within and outside Pakistan. Until we come to terms with it internally, we will never get it right externally.

The nation of Pakistan may have come into existence a half-century ago but our heritage goes back to Mohenjo Daro, Harrapa and Taxila. Revisionist history textbooks have tried to deny this by using the arrival of Mohammad Bin Qasim as a starting point. Worse, by obliterating the fact that we were once part of the land of India, we are doing ourselves a great injustice to our rich, historical past.

Consider that the land of India has been a known entity for centuries. Columbus sailed west in search of a new route to India from Europe. Where he ended up became known as the West Indies and the inhabitants of the continent of America as Indians. Before that, land routes across Central Asia and sea routes around the cape of Southern Africa were established to carry out trade with India. The Dutch named the islands off the straits of Malacca as Indonesia and the area became known as the East Indies. All these references are to the name India. Similarly, China and Russia, as cultural and geographic entities, go way beyond their present political identities.

Our problem basically stems from the issue of India being labelled as a Hindu state. Yet the most famous symbol of India, which it promotes endlessly, is the Taj Mahal, a mausoleum built by a Muslim emperor to his beloved.

Before the British came, India existed as a landmass peopled with many diverse principalities. Regular wars between the states caused boundaries to change frequently. The Moghul rule as well contributed to the evolving demographics of India and the invasions from the north-west added to the cauldron of nationalities. The Portuguese, French and British contributions were the conversions of many Christianity. So there was never really an India as it exists today.

The `culture of India`, exported aggressively the world over, includes Muslim and Hindu aspects. Food, music, dress and historical perspectives are marketed without reference to the religious backgrounds, but rather, to the `Indian-ness` of it all. What historicity can we show? Fifty years do not a heritage make.

In the last twenty-five years or so we have further confused things by aligning ourselves with nations in the Middle East instead of with South Asia. The result is that in geographical groupings by international marketing, trade and fora, Pakistan does not figure anywhere as we are not considered along with the Middle East and we do not consider ourselves to be Asians. Multinational companies, too, find it difficult to place Pakistan when they group their markets and operations - should the reporting lines go west or east? Increasingly we are now being clubbed with the other `istans` and Pakistan being made the hub for trade with Central Asia. How will that affect the way the world sees us?

It is time we reclaimed our rightful heritage as people of this land. Our identity is `who we are` and `what we are`. Not what we pretend to be.

Fuzair:# 92

No need to heave such `cool` sighs.

If you want to be taken seriously then please do not stoop so low as to claim that it was an irony & sarcasm only.``yaar mein tho mazaque kr raha tha`` is an old & known technique used by those caught with their hands in the cookie-jar.

Read again(in fact you quoted the passage) and see that the author is writing about the gift of the arabic & farsi SCRIPT to the urdu language.



With an Un-Islamist mindset which you have and the lack of conviction to breakaway from this dilemma,you need not involve yourself in polemics & word-mincing.

The pilpli sahib props you still seem to think as great acts have no value other than to impress your servants & wanna-be pilpili sahibs back in the Paki land.

``O jee ghairat anee janee shaye vay,Asl ich banday noon dhitt hona chaeeda hai``

tr: (The concept of) Honour is fickle,the truth is that a person should be shamelessly persistent.

Isn`t that creed not being instilled in the minds of those supposed to defend the nations honour & integrity?



I do not know what TTFN means so please enjoy it yourself also if it is meant to be something good.



wasalaam.