Mecca or Mohenjodaro?

EST Reply #: 36

Mujnooh

YOU WROTE:

``How is the culture of a Pathan similar to a culture of a UPite...how is the culture of a Tamil similar to that of a Punjabi??

We, or at least I, merely stated that our culture cannot simply be boiled down to Islam but is composite of many contributing factors.``

I agree with you... a Punjabi and a Madrasi have distinct cultures... which is fine... they are no less Hindus/Indians....

What the author was implying was that the whole of Pakistan is one homogenous Islamic faternity which has more in common with Islam/Arabia than with Mohenjpodaro/India.

And that contention is what I have a dispute with.

AD

``I can just visualise Indians rubbing their hands with glee under the impression that by denouncing the author, they (Pakistanis) regard themselves indistinguishable from Indians.``

Sorry, but please don`t think that any Indian will feel happy about being compared to a Pakistani!

-narain

Mujnooh # 36

``We, or at least I, merely stated that our [Pakistani] culture cannot simply be boiled down to Islam but is composite of many contributing factors [subcultures?].

The fact youve got to bear in mind is that these factors [subcultures?] themselves are NOT identical between the two countries [India & Pakistan], and any claim that they are is baseless.``

Baseless? Absolutley! How was that ``kite flying festival`` in Lahore that you mentioned? Don`t Lahoris call it ``Basant?`` Seems strangley familar to spring festivals we celebrate in India, but that must just be another one of my ``baseless claims.``

i suggest you read some history books, but i would steer clear of any ``Gov. of Pak Approved`` texts with titles like ``5,000 Years of Pakistani History.``

Regards,

Harish

After reading various books by authors of various religions, in which the author writes ``My religion is a complete way of life, unlike other religions`` -- the various authors being Hindu, Christian, Muslim (and perhaps Buddhist if memory serves ) -- I conclude that such statements merely reflect ignorance of the other religions. To a believer, his or her religion enters every aspect of life.

The tragedy in this situation is that the current argument about identity takes place at all. I think we can accept that many Muslims in the subcontinent felt that their rights would not be safe post-1947 in a democratic set-up with a Hindu majority. Whether this fear was valid or not, a fifty or a hundred years may not suffice to tell. So, Pakistan was formed. To the extent that these fears are unjustified, relations with India would be warmer and closer. The political separation would be to ensure safety. There would be no need for the wholescale redefinition of identity.

Instead we have the ``not-India`` definition of Pakistan.

-arun gupta

urstruly: ``Why is it considered necessary for a culture to be a ``valid`` culture

only if it has continuity from pre-historic time? Will it make a

society less civilized or an inferior one if it doesn`t? If Pakistanis

define their heritage and history from the times Arabs came into

Sindh or when Muslims started coming into sub-continent from

north, what is wrong with that. I don’t see Americans having

problem stating the main course of their history from Columbus or

more specifically when Mayflower landed on American continent.

Why should Pakistanis have a problem with that?``

Answer is very simple. American citizens who have pre-Colombous ancestors constitute less than .05% of the total US population while if not more at least 90% of Pakistanis have pre-Islamic ``Pakistani`` ancestors who were born, lived and died here in Pakistan.

The Author said (Islam is living. Mohenjodaro is dead. Mohenjodaro is past.)

Most of the cultures, invaders or immigrants to Indian sub-continent came through Khyber or Bolan passes. The theory of Aryan invasions and its aftermath is well-known. What is debatable and since the end of second world war, highly contested, is the notion of very large number of people coming down the mountains and overtaking the whole region. It is considered impossible now for barren land, arid and harsh climate of central asian steppes, anywhere between Ukraine and Mongolia to support millions of people, let alone their movement en-masse through deserts as well as mountains on their way to India. What is given, is the cultural invasion. The domination of a particular culture is not necessarily enforced or belong to the majority. Religions also play very signicant part in spreading a culture and it is quite possible that early Aryan or Sanskrit speaking immigrants or invaders were equipped with something like a proto-Veda in a similar way as small number of Arabs, equipped with Quran ended up culturally dominating all the land between northwest corner of Africa to the persian gulf. This is similar to a product identification theory. Coca-cola is called coke all over the world becuse of the intention of its originators and tea is called something like ``chaye`` from Korea all the way to Greece ( all over Urasia) because of its original native name.

The original Aryan or even Scythian or White Huns could not be in the millions to end up reproducing close to one billion north Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis in roughly 3000-3500 years. Moreover, there is not enough archaeological evidence to reveal of any extensive invading migration. It seems logical that it was more of an acceptance of Aryan culture by the natives to the detriment of their own culture. It is also lot more logical to believe that we, ``so-called Aryans`` actually carry lot more pre-Aryan than Aryan blood. This would make Mohenjodaro a graveyard; but of our ancestors. The respect for the graves of ancestors is not proportional to the quality of marble or head stone, it is based on realization that we are in this world because of them. There is no reason to degrade the long dead ancestors only because they practiced different religions than currently in vogue.



baloch1 (#17): You said (I have a lot of experience living and traveling through rural Sindh and Balochistan. In my experience people seem to live life on their own terms with no regard for religion. Religion is invoked say during a marriage cermony or death but it has very little role in peoples every day lives.)

The life in the rural Punjab is no different than rural Sindh or Rural Balochistan. Almost every village in Punjab will have a mosque but this being the center of their lives is anything but truth. The ``Lambardar and Patwari`` are the most influential and powerful personalities. Most of the decisions are taken at punchayat held usually outdoor, near the dera (dera is different than house. It is more like Nambardar`s office as well as hang-out place) of the village head. Most men go early in the morning to work in their fields and do not come back until sunset. Niether they come back to village for prayers nor for lunch; actually lunch is brought to them. Except for fridays or festive occasions, mosque is pretty desrted place. The village mullah usually does not own any land. He gets paid at the harvest time, in the form of grain, based on the land holdings of each family. This is exactly same what other artisan classes get. This system dates way back to Hinduism, when Brahmins were paid in the form of grain.

Actually urban mosque are more colorful and usually full during Friday prayer. Most of the jehadis are also lower and lower-middle urbanites.

temporal: Good riddle about RMS Azad. I wonder how many chowkwallas besides ``US`` know it. I know it for sure.

Bilal: I have a book, named ``Lok Punjab`` published by Lok Virsa, which gives reference to Uxi (or Aksee) Mufti. About 8-10 years back, he appeared to be associated with ``Lok Virsa`` or National Arts Council. He was a field researcher, who would widely travel and record the folklores associated with the local ``pirs`` or sufi saints. I am not sure what he does for living these days.

Re: RMS Azam

Although I agree with your assertion that Islam is Pakistan`s identity and its reason for being , what makes you think that secular-minded Pakistanis are pseudo-intellectuals? Also, you use ``secular`` and ``de-Islamize`` in one breath. What makes you think they are one and the same? Jinnah, whom you fondly quote, wanted a homeland, and a secular one, for the Muslims of India, not an abode of Islamic zealots. In fact, it was people with beliefs similar to yours who labeled Jinnah ``Kafir-e-Azam``. And it is not the secular Pakistanis ``who do not wish to see reality as it is``, it`s you. Secular Pakistanis see the ground realities, you don`t. Talk about pseudo-intellectuals!

Sigh. Yet another attempt to ``prove`` that we are not Hindus with but a veneer of Islam as an overlay. I wrote a paper as an undergrad arguing that people often define themselves by what they are NOT, as much as by what they are. I think this article falls squarely in that category. Maybe if we all shout it out loud enough and often enough, we will convince ourselves.

However, I will readily grant that Pathans (and Shina speakers, Hunzakuts, etc) are not a part of South Asia the same way that Punjabis and Sindhis are. They are a Central Asian people tacked on by an accident of history to South Asia. And no, I am not advocating Pukhtunistan. I am simply stating a fact. Since there are more Pathans in Pakistan than in Afghanistan, we could claim it as our lost province--but why would we want to?

Since Baluchi is a Persian language (I believe, although Brahui is a Dravidian one if I am not mistaken), I guess the Baluch belong to Iran linguistically. Culturally? I don`t know. So, its a mess.

The long and the short of it is that we cannot escape the evil Hindu influence and blood that runs in our veins. How else do you explain the fact that ``Chota gosht`` is preferred to ``Barra gosht`` and chicken is prized above all else? We may claim to be Muslims but we don`t go around chomping on beefsteak day and night (or should that be camelsteaks?). My mother`s family is darn proud of the fact that they are Rajputs (who converted to Islam some time in the 18th century I believe) and the last time I looked, there were no Rajputs trekking over from Mecca and Medina to enlighten us heathens. If you look at much of the Punjab or Sind, they are pretty much crawling with Rajputs--or what the heck do you think are Bhattis or Janjuas or Soomros? Arabs I presume? And what the heck do you think Jats are? A lost tribe of Arabs that wandered over with Bin Qasim?

So actually, Mr. Azam, if I were you, I would be proud of the fact that I could lay some claim to Mohenjodaro--covered gutters, right angle corners, regular trash collection, heated baths and all--while the Arabs were running around herding camels in the desert. We can be good Muslims WITHOUT having to be second rate Arabs. In fact, why not just try to be first-rate Pakistanis? Why this irrational need to identify ourselves with the Arabs? Why not just accept the fact that we are (mainly) Hindus who converted to Islam? Alas for the Arabs, the Mongols destroyed Arab civilization when they sacked Baghdad in the 13th century and the Spanish destroyed what was left of it in the reconquista. I guess you could try calling the Mamlukes of Egypt Arabs, but they would have objected to it.

Now, there were great Islamic civilizations after that but they owed very little to the grandeur that was Arabia. The Ottoman Turks or the Moghuls were not particularly inspired by Mecca or Medina any more than the British Empire owed its greatness or glory to Bethlehem. Taimur`s Samarkand owes more to the example of Ghenghis Khan than to the Prophet. Babar emulated his ancestor Taimur and did not find his inspiration in the Koran or the Sunnah.

Yes, there are Pakistanis who have an incredible inferiority complex. They are people like you who have this irrational need to pretend to be second-rate Arabs. Try asking some real Arabs (Saudis perhaps) what they think of Pakistanis who name their sons ``X bin Y`` or blather on about Islamic brotherhood. Me, I prefer to try to catch up to the West and dream of beating them the same way that the Japanese, Taiwanese or South Koreans did, thats my fantasy. I think I prefer mine to yours since it might actually make some people better off.

Fuzair #51:

You aremy hero. Well said. Frankly, I`d rather be a Pakistani with a Moenjodaro connection than an Arab :)

Rafay

One can pray towards Mecca and have Mohenjodaro
running through one`s veins.

Two more points here:

1) Pakistanis have to stop justifying their existence. The do not need to apologize to Indians or offer explanations. Pakistan is as
much of a reality as India, or BOTH are equally
fictitious.
2) I am proud of my South Asian heritage. Pakistan
is my mother country, but I also have ties to
India and Bangladesh. I am not Persian or Arab. Just a Pakistani and remain proud of it.
I am a spiritual Muslim who is UNWILLING to
give up on South Asian cultural linkages that
include my relationships with Hindus, Sikhs etc.
There are Pakistanis who are not Muslims and
there a numerous Muslims who are not Pakistani.
One should not deny the past because it enriches us and does not diminish our religion.

Ras

Harish: (Post # 30)

``Am I wrong in this case? When the author says Mohenjedaro or the Indus Valley Civilzation, is he not really referring to India (a name which comes from Indus by the way)? Otherwise, why is it an issue ?``

--Bilkul Bajaa Farmayaa! You are 101% wrong! It is a mindset.Just because you are on the otherside of the border does not mean that you can understand what goes in the mind of all your neighbours. I find your questioning ``why`` very childish.

--If a person has a view because of his/her mindset (I do not know what it is) and above all due to his/her prerogative that does not mean others are entitled to assume that there are some underlying motives (Oooooh, kind of devilish). That is the typical nonsense that we hear on the media. I thought we are in Year 2000. Seems like still the Brits/Mohtaram Jinnah/Gandhi Jee are announcing the details of Partition. Irony!!!



``The Turks are non-Arabic Muslims and I`m not aware of anyone questioning their cultural identity. The same can be said for the Iranians. Why so with the Pakistanis?``

-- Harish: I have studied and worked with North Indians and South Indians both. I found that the Southerners would not like the Northerners and vice versa. I could have been inquisitive and tried to dig more to get the real story. I never did as I was not interested. Now, I could have assumed, and somehow I knew the case, but that was never a priority for me to confirm.

-- Few months back, I was at the local CVS(Pharmacy)when I ran into an indian lady(cashier). She bombarded me with several questions, Aapkaa Pakistan Aur Humaraa India. Each question started with the above phrase. In my heart and heart I was thinking, what did I do wrong to be at this CVS after a long day and run into a member of Indian Assemly :-) I patiently(my newly acquired trait, still practicing)listened to the amusing questions. Having travelled extensively across US for business purposes, I have come across different Mukhlooq-ae-Khudaa in different cities. I gathered from her way of speaking that she was speaking a mixture of languages. Turned out it was Hindi in Gujrati accent. She was either from Bombay or Delhi(Most probably latter than the former)I also noticed that she was not a student who was working part time. In fact, she was a house-wife who works there and gets all the news from the media(Living in US). Interestingly, the first few times her bombardment of questions continued. My way of handling her questions was to let her vent out her news and then give The Ending Sermon :-) Fortunately, the technique worked very well! Somehow, after a few times I realized that the bombardment was not intentional. It was not to make me feel uncomfortable {Though I must say that my blood started boiling when I heard her saying Oool Jalool the first few times} I realized there was a lack of information and ignorance on her behalf. So practicing the first and foremost principle of negotiation, ``Seek first to understand and then be understood``, I guess I learnt something about her.

On my recent visit after a month or so, as soon as she heard my voice, she made it a point to jump out of the isles and wished a polite ``Kaisee Ho`` . We exchanged pleasantries and she extended a dinner invitation with her family. Surprise Surprise !!!!!!! And I have been given the option to let her know what will I like to eat so she can prepare that for me.

Shall I start doubting her intentions to be malicious ?

Or shall I take the invite ?

I know what I plan on doing but I would like to get your input ?

I think the above examples have a lot to comprehend if you contemplate.

Take Care

(Shukar Hae`:Sermon Over)

As for the author`s assertion that there are no influences in Pakistan save the Muslim one, it makes you wonder whether he actually lives in the same Pakistan as the rest of us do!

If someone feels comfortable considering Pakistan a middle eastern country, let them do so. If someone else considers Pakistan a South Asian country, let them have their point of view. If someone feels Pakistan should look towards Mecca and not towards M`doro, then let them hold and express their views. And if someone thinks that Pakistanis should look at M`doro only, that is fine as well. If someone from India thinks Pakistan is still India (I didn`t know this view existed until I ended up on Chowk), well let them have their point of view as well.

People look towards different directions to define their identities, and the identities of others. They have every right to do so. Once they have found what they consider to be correct, they try to express it to other people. As long as they do not get violent and do not discriminate, there is nothing wrong with their expressing their views and motivations. Two people with opposite views on the identity of their nation, at a personal level, can be equally correct.

As far as I am concerned, Pakistan is Pakistan. I don`t particularly care whether my ancestors rode in with the Muslim conquerors and invaders, or were converted from the local Hindus. Like most Pakistanis, I am probably a mixture of local Indians, Afghans, Persians and what not. It doesn`t make much of a difference to me. As far as I know, I was born in Pakistan, and am viewed by everyone else as a Pakistani. This holds true for most, if not all, Pakistanis. If one wants to go back into history, then everything ends up at Adam (for the Muslim, Jewish, and Christians).

Jagdeep (Post # 34):-

``In Pakistan Urdu is the mother Tongue of a minority which migrated to Pakistan from certain other parts of India. These are the people who after more than 50 years of Pakistan’s existence are even today known as Muhajirs ( I think that means Refugees).``

- I feel the last sentence was a misportrayal.

``Urdu is not the Language of Lahore but of Lucknow. When I was a child my whole village (in Indian Punjab) used to listen to ‘Radio Lahore’ every evening because they spoke the most beautiful Punjabi. No doubt sections of educated elite use Urdu to be different from the ‘commoners’ just as in Indian Punjab such people try to use ‘Hindi’ (And both these elites are replacing these languages with English very very fast) ``

-- The Urdu spoken in Lahore, Punjab, in particular has more of a Persian flavor/influence whereas in India, it has Hindi`s. I have noticed that among my Indian Muslim friends. Just an addition, many in urban communities may have grown up communicating in Urdu, but Punjabi poetry has far more depth than Urdu poetry.

Urdu poetry has its own beauty but when one listens to Late Nusrat Fateh Ali reciting Bulleh Shah`s Kalaam, the words simply pierce through the human body and impinge on the heart. Whereas, ones does not feel that way when Mirza Ghalib is eloquently recited by Jagjeet Singh.

``By Mr Azams logic all those Sufi Saints who wrote beautiful poetry in Punjabi were not true muslims.``

-- It`s a little unfair to asssume.

Re: Harish, Reply No. 52

Harish Sahib,

Thank you for telling me about what *I * said.

You seem to be suffering a comprehension disorder...but I won`t hold that against you.

Let`s just clarify the situation:

To rebut Mr. Azam, you made the following assertion :

``... then you fall back on a culture which is *identical * and shared with those hated desis``

Now, just to clarify, you used the word identical in the above, it is quite clear that you AND MR. Azam have the same agenda in mind...to use arbitrarily selected observations to jump to a conclusion that Pakistani culture is either entirely aligned with a) Islam/arabs or b) hinduism.

What I was trying to make you and Mr. Azam comprehend is that culture (and Pakistani especially) is FAR more complex than that.

It might be beyond your reasoning capacity, but the fact is that in order to argue your point over Mr. Azam`s youve really only employed the same tactics as he has...and as far as I am concerned your assertion that Pakistanis are otherwise IDENTICAL to Indians, is as idiotic as his.

And really... dont try to distort what I said...it makes you sound truly pathetic. Celebrating Basant doesn`t make us Indians hindus any more than calling ourselves with arabic names make us Arabic.

Pakistanis share a rich mixture of culture/s with a history which doesn`t just boil down to India or Arab...try to ponder over that for a while.

I hope that helps...but do come back if things are still unclear.

Regards,

Mujnooh Khan.

2 Zahra:

Punjabi has it`s own flavor. But the lack of depth you feel in Mirza Ghalib`s ghazals, when comparing them to Bulleh Shah`s, is because you are listening to those ghazals sung by Jagjeet Singh. This singer has too many limitations in his vocal abilities. Try Ghalib ghazals sung by `real`/classical singers like Noor Jehan, Rafi, Begum Akhtar or even Lata rather than by mass-market commercial ones. I am not a music purist of any sort but the difference between Jagjit Singh and others is too obvious.