Open Letter to General Musharraf
Ahmad Faruqui May 14, 2000
#103 Posted by harimau on May 23, 2000 4:31:32 pm
Ref krashid #: 100
``If you don`t believe look at the massacre of Sikhs by Indian forces with the backing of whole nation. Massacre of Kashmiris by Indian forces with the backing of whole nation.``
The attack on the Golden Temple was led by a Sikh general of the Indian Army.
The Punjab Police was under K.P.S. Gill, another Sikh.
There are Sikhs with undying loyalty to India who recognize the threat to the country from terrorists trained and supplied from abroad.
If you don`t believe that the Khalistani Sikhs were funded by General Zia, you can read any history book written by a Western historian. Unless you think that Indians are writing under those names.
``If you don`t believe look at the massacre of Sikhs by Indian forces with the backing of whole nation. Massacre of Kashmiris by Indian forces with the backing of whole nation.``
The attack on the Golden Temple was led by a Sikh general of the Indian Army.
The Punjab Police was under K.P.S. Gill, another Sikh.
There are Sikhs with undying loyalty to India who recognize the threat to the country from terrorists trained and supplied from abroad.
If you don`t believe that the Khalistani Sikhs were funded by General Zia, you can read any history book written by a Western historian. Unless you think that Indians are writing under those names.
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#102 Posted by sadna on May 23, 2000 10:38:07 am
krashid #100
Oh, and about Sikhs. I would be interested to know why an ex-ISI chief is head of the Pakistani Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee?
Sadhana
Oh, and about Sikhs. I would be interested to know why an ex-ISI chief is head of the Pakistani Gurudwara Prabandhak Committee?
Sadhana
#101 Posted by satish on May 23, 2000 10:38:07 am
Re: 103
Feroze,
I just read your reply, and I appreciate what you write. I may write a long response to what you have written, and again I may not, because there is not much that we differ on, except the all pervasive misunderstandings that abound between Indians and Pakistanis. Unfortunate.
So, let me just reply in short to the most pertinant point in your mail. I am as strong a `hindu nationalist` as they come, and believe me, there is no `walk the walk` in our agenda. We really dont want to hurt Pakistan or anyone else, and most of us know that our long term interests lie in stability in the region and no wars. That was what Vajpayee had taken to Pakistan with him. `Zang na hone denge.` And dont worry, ndians are not planning for a war or anything like that, no matter what you think. They have much more important things to plan.
All we want is to be left alone to concentrate on our economy. The fashion in India nowadays is not war with Pakistan, but trying to be an economic superpower in the world in a realistically near future. That is what drives us at present, believe it or not.
We Indians just have had enough - enough of terrorism, enough of being badmouthed, enough of treachery. But dont think that it is going to result in aggressive militarism, a.k.a. Pakistan. More likely, as immediate South Asia goes less and less important to us, it is goint to be a sort of benign neglect, if you guys will let us.
We know about your obsession with kashmir, and maybe if you guys climb down from your shrill, violent paraniod best, something could be arranged. But NO Indian government is going to let you take Kashmir under blackmail. NEVER. And no matter what happens, you can take that as final.
And in any case, I guess no Indian government is going to allow Kashmir to go to Pakistan, even peacefully, though I am not sure of that as much as I am sure of the previous thing. A sort of quasi-independent valley, with Jammu and Ladakh going to India, is about the best I can think of.
So, please shut down your paranoia machine. There is no one out there to get you. there is no hidden agenda in India to `walk the walk`. All Indians want is to forget you exist and get on with their lives.
Feroze,
I just read your reply, and I appreciate what you write. I may write a long response to what you have written, and again I may not, because there is not much that we differ on, except the all pervasive misunderstandings that abound between Indians and Pakistanis. Unfortunate.
So, let me just reply in short to the most pertinant point in your mail. I am as strong a `hindu nationalist` as they come, and believe me, there is no `walk the walk` in our agenda. We really dont want to hurt Pakistan or anyone else, and most of us know that our long term interests lie in stability in the region and no wars. That was what Vajpayee had taken to Pakistan with him. `Zang na hone denge.` And dont worry, ndians are not planning for a war or anything like that, no matter what you think. They have much more important things to plan.
All we want is to be left alone to concentrate on our economy. The fashion in India nowadays is not war with Pakistan, but trying to be an economic superpower in the world in a realistically near future. That is what drives us at present, believe it or not.
We Indians just have had enough - enough of terrorism, enough of being badmouthed, enough of treachery. But dont think that it is going to result in aggressive militarism, a.k.a. Pakistan. More likely, as immediate South Asia goes less and less important to us, it is goint to be a sort of benign neglect, if you guys will let us.
We know about your obsession with kashmir, and maybe if you guys climb down from your shrill, violent paraniod best, something could be arranged. But NO Indian government is going to let you take Kashmir under blackmail. NEVER. And no matter what happens, you can take that as final.
And in any case, I guess no Indian government is going to allow Kashmir to go to Pakistan, even peacefully, though I am not sure of that as much as I am sure of the previous thing. A sort of quasi-independent valley, with Jammu and Ladakh going to India, is about the best I can think of.
So, please shut down your paranoia machine. There is no one out there to get you. there is no hidden agenda in India to `walk the walk`. All Indians want is to forget you exist and get on with their lives.
#100 Posted by sadna on May 23, 2000 10:38:07 am
krashid #100
I have been observing posts on chowk for 3-4months too, and I can return the compliment.
I can see what is expected from a `well-wisher` is to `bend over`. No relationship as equals whether agreeing or disagreeing is acceptable to some mentalities.
Sadhana
I have been observing posts on chowk for 3-4months too, and I can return the compliment.
I can see what is expected from a `well-wisher` is to `bend over`. No relationship as equals whether agreeing or disagreeing is acceptable to some mentalities.
Sadhana
#99 Posted by ferozk on May 23, 2000 7:38:11 am
Re: Satish # 95
Just one caveat to your post…..you should have finished the job when you had the chance and now, my friend, it will cost you a lot more. That is what I meant by “walk the walk”, because you Indians always left the job half done. You can do it again, no one is denying that, but are you willing to pay the asking price this time around? Given your resentment against Pakistan for what you construe as the treachery of Lahore, just remember one thing: India is our enemy and with an enemy you certainly do not fight according the marquis of Queensberry rules! All is fair in love and war.
Satish, think clearly before you decide, because there are a lot of Pakistanis who are quite prepared to die though they are, thankfully, a small minority, but thanks to your anti-Pakistani obsession their numbers are increasing daily. India can push us to the wall, but what happens then, I can not say for sure, because that would be our, both sane Pakistanis and Indians, worst nightmare! That is what I suggested to Shankar in my post to his post and that is what I am suggesting to you; beware the charms of patriotism, for all roads to glory, but lead to the grave!
Incidentally, you might be wondering so allow me to set the record straight. I detest patriotism of the variety, which is so common in our crowded, congested, and polluted homelands. Patria amor, Latin for love of country, never suggested that it should be utilized as an excuse to deny the basic necessities to a vast majority of population, whose only unforgivable sin was that they had the misfortune of being born in the sub-continent. I cry for this beautiful land, India and Pakistan, because there is so much potential in its vast reservoirs of aching humanity that it irks and angers me, when I see this God given talent being held hostage to the whims of an indifferent leadership. The only thing, which is keeping us bonded to the yoke of past is our blind devotion to the idolatry of ideology urged upon by a sense of patriotism, which is neither patriotic nor based on patriotism, but is a visionless mordant echo of our own lack of imaginations.
For the record, I am really critical of Pakistan’s policy in the whole of Kargil episode and in other things, but if anyone assumes that I will willingly condone the other sides’ arguments and logic, then they are mistaken. Just because I hold Pakistan responsible for a host of problems, which ails it presently, I am not necessarily going to offer a carté blanche to the Indian arguments either. In fact, I hold the leaderships of both the nations, not the people, as responsible for the mess, which they have bestowed upon us. I have been absent from Chowk for the last seven months and upon my return, I was horrified to discover that patriotism had reared its ugly head here too. Patriots, in my opinion, are scoundrels wrapped in piety and honor without a shred of common decency in them. Shakespeare once said, “let us kill all the lawyers” and I will rephrase that to say, “let us kill all the patriots”.
Satish, there is a perceptional misunderstanding about my posts on Chowk, because since I have been away, there is a new group of interacters, active on Chowk, who do not know my inclinations and thus, are willing to label me as just another mindless Pakistani uttering the same ill-logical rhetoric. I search for my old friends; Ras, Temporal, Bina Shah, BG, Narain, Slink, Godot, and many more, but alas, my old friends have disappeared and faded away in the mists of this virtual world, where we once engaged in this cyber tete-a-tete.
Incidentally, if anyone reading this rather long and boring post happens to know where the whereabouts of Rishi, please let me know.
Satish, my friend, my hatred for patriotism began one warm summer day in Washington, D.C. nearly sixteen years ago, when I was visiting the Vietnam Wall; another memorial to patriotism, when I saw a mother reading a letter to her son, who had been dead a long time ago, and informing him, through her letter, how she spent her year. Later, I was to learn that she would come to the Wall once a year and read a letter to her son telling him about another year without him. How many mothers in India and Pakistan have been without their sons, husbands, fathers and uncles who never came home, because of patriotism?
Does it not strike you as ironic that in India and Pakistan patriotism has its most ardent supporters in those who will never hear a shot fired in anger and those who have never served a day in the front lines are the most patriotic of them all! So, my friend, instead of hurling abuses at each other, which at the end of day though it may have made us happy, and will not change the reality of our mutual nuclear nightmares one iota, let us find a common ground and see if we can transcend the abyss of acrimony, which divides us. Let us forget the infamies of the past and start anew in the hopes that we may, for once, shall be able to leave the past behind. The future of India and Pakistan lies in its citizens taking the affairs of their future away from its leadership and engaging in peaceful endeavors on an individual basis, because our governments are not interested in peace and they are not interested in our welfare.
Ciao!
Just one caveat to your post…..you should have finished the job when you had the chance and now, my friend, it will cost you a lot more. That is what I meant by “walk the walk”, because you Indians always left the job half done. You can do it again, no one is denying that, but are you willing to pay the asking price this time around? Given your resentment against Pakistan for what you construe as the treachery of Lahore, just remember one thing: India is our enemy and with an enemy you certainly do not fight according the marquis of Queensberry rules! All is fair in love and war.
Satish, think clearly before you decide, because there are a lot of Pakistanis who are quite prepared to die though they are, thankfully, a small minority, but thanks to your anti-Pakistani obsession their numbers are increasing daily. India can push us to the wall, but what happens then, I can not say for sure, because that would be our, both sane Pakistanis and Indians, worst nightmare! That is what I suggested to Shankar in my post to his post and that is what I am suggesting to you; beware the charms of patriotism, for all roads to glory, but lead to the grave!
Incidentally, you might be wondering so allow me to set the record straight. I detest patriotism of the variety, which is so common in our crowded, congested, and polluted homelands. Patria amor, Latin for love of country, never suggested that it should be utilized as an excuse to deny the basic necessities to a vast majority of population, whose only unforgivable sin was that they had the misfortune of being born in the sub-continent. I cry for this beautiful land, India and Pakistan, because there is so much potential in its vast reservoirs of aching humanity that it irks and angers me, when I see this God given talent being held hostage to the whims of an indifferent leadership. The only thing, which is keeping us bonded to the yoke of past is our blind devotion to the idolatry of ideology urged upon by a sense of patriotism, which is neither patriotic nor based on patriotism, but is a visionless mordant echo of our own lack of imaginations.
For the record, I am really critical of Pakistan’s policy in the whole of Kargil episode and in other things, but if anyone assumes that I will willingly condone the other sides’ arguments and logic, then they are mistaken. Just because I hold Pakistan responsible for a host of problems, which ails it presently, I am not necessarily going to offer a carté blanche to the Indian arguments either. In fact, I hold the leaderships of both the nations, not the people, as responsible for the mess, which they have bestowed upon us. I have been absent from Chowk for the last seven months and upon my return, I was horrified to discover that patriotism had reared its ugly head here too. Patriots, in my opinion, are scoundrels wrapped in piety and honor without a shred of common decency in them. Shakespeare once said, “let us kill all the lawyers” and I will rephrase that to say, “let us kill all the patriots”.
Satish, there is a perceptional misunderstanding about my posts on Chowk, because since I have been away, there is a new group of interacters, active on Chowk, who do not know my inclinations and thus, are willing to label me as just another mindless Pakistani uttering the same ill-logical rhetoric. I search for my old friends; Ras, Temporal, Bina Shah, BG, Narain, Slink, Godot, and many more, but alas, my old friends have disappeared and faded away in the mists of this virtual world, where we once engaged in this cyber tete-a-tete.
Incidentally, if anyone reading this rather long and boring post happens to know where the whereabouts of Rishi, please let me know.
Satish, my friend, my hatred for patriotism began one warm summer day in Washington, D.C. nearly sixteen years ago, when I was visiting the Vietnam Wall; another memorial to patriotism, when I saw a mother reading a letter to her son, who had been dead a long time ago, and informing him, through her letter, how she spent her year. Later, I was to learn that she would come to the Wall once a year and read a letter to her son telling him about another year without him. How many mothers in India and Pakistan have been without their sons, husbands, fathers and uncles who never came home, because of patriotism?
Does it not strike you as ironic that in India and Pakistan patriotism has its most ardent supporters in those who will never hear a shot fired in anger and those who have never served a day in the front lines are the most patriotic of them all! So, my friend, instead of hurling abuses at each other, which at the end of day though it may have made us happy, and will not change the reality of our mutual nuclear nightmares one iota, let us find a common ground and see if we can transcend the abyss of acrimony, which divides us. Let us forget the infamies of the past and start anew in the hopes that we may, for once, shall be able to leave the past behind. The future of India and Pakistan lies in its citizens taking the affairs of their future away from its leadership and engaging in peaceful endeavors on an individual basis, because our governments are not interested in peace and they are not interested in our welfare.
Ciao!
#98 Posted by ferozk on May 23, 2000 7:37:45 am
Re: Satish # 95
Just one caveat to your post…..you should have finished the job when you had the chance and now, my friend, it will cost you a lot more. That is what I meant by “walk the walk”, because you Indians always left the job half done. You can do it again, no one is denying that, but are you willing to pay the asking price this time around? Given your resentment against Pakistan for what you construe as the treachery of Lahore, just remember one thing: India is our enemy and with an enemy you certainly do not fight according the marquis of Queensberry rules! All is fair in love and war.
Satish, think clearly before you decide, because there are a lot of Pakistanis who are quite prepared to die though they are, thankfully, a small minority, but thanks to your anti-Pakistani obsession their numbers are increasing daily. India can push us to the wall, but what happens then, I can not say for sure, because that would be our, both sane Pakistanis and Indians, worst nightmare! That is what I suggested to Shankar in my post to his post and that is what I am suggesting to you; beware the charms of patriotism, for all roads to glory, but lead to the grave!
Incidentally, you might be wondering so allow me to set the record straight. I detest patriotism of the variety, which is so common in our crowded, congested, and polluted homelands. Patria amor, Latin for love of country, never suggested that it should be utilized as an excuse to deny the basic necessities to a vast majority of population, whose only unforgivable sin was that they had the misfortune of being born in the sub-continent. I cry for this beautiful land, India and Pakistan, because there is so much potential in its vast reservoirs of aching humanity that it irks and angers me, when I see this God given talent being held hostage to the whims of an indifferent leadership. The only thing, which is keeping us bonded to the yoke of past is our blind devotion to the idolatry of ideology urged upon by a sense of patriotism, which is neither patriotic nor based on patriotism, but is a visionless mordant echo of our own lack of imaginations.
For the record, I am really critical of Pakistan’s policy in the whole of Kargil episode and in other things, but if anyone assumes that I will willingly condone the other sides’ arguments and logic, then they are mistaken. Just because I hold Pakistan responsible for a host of problems, which ails it presently, I am not necessarily going to offer a carté blanche to the Indian arguments either. In fact, I hold the leaderships of both the nations, not the people, as responsible for the mess, which they have bestowed upon us. I have been absent from Chowk for the last seven months and upon my return, I was horrified to discover that patriotism had reared its ugly head here too. Patriots, in my opinion, are scoundrels wrapped in piety and honor without a shred of common decency in them. Shakespeare once said, “let us kill all the lawyers” and I will rephrase that to say, “let us kill all the patriots”.
Satish, there is a perceptional misunderstanding about my posts on Chowk, because since I have been away, there is a new group of interacters, active on Chowk, who do not know my inclinations and thus, are willing to label me as just another mindless Pakistani uttering the same ill-logical rhetoric. I search for my old friends; Ras, Temporal, Bina Shah, BG, Narain, Slink, Godot, and many more, but alas, my old friends have disappeared and faded away in the mists of this virtual world, where we once engaged in this cyber tete-a-tete.
Incidentally, if anyone reading this rather long and boring post happens to know where the whereabouts of Rishi, please let me know.
Satish, my friend, my hatred for patriotism began one warm summer day in Washington, D.C. nearly sixteen years ago, when I was visiting the Vietnam Wall; another memorial to patriotism, when I saw a mother reading a letter to her son, who had been dead a long time ago, and informing him, through her letter, how she spent her year. Later, I was to learn that she would come to the Wall once a year and read a letter to her son telling him about another year without him. How many mothers in India and Pakistan have been without their sons, husbands, fathers and uncles who never came home, because of patriotism?
Does it not strike you as ironic that in India and Pakistan patriotism has its most ardent supporters in those who will never hear a shot fired in anger and those who have never served a day in the front lines are the most patriotic of them all! So, my friend, instead of hurling abuses at each other, which at the end of day though it may have made us happy, and will not change the reality of our mutual nuclear nightmares one iota, let us find a common ground and see if we can transcend the abyss of acrimony, which divides us. Let us forget the infamies of the past and start anew in the hopes that we may, for once, shall be able to leave the past behind. The future of India and Pakistan lies in its citizens taking the affairs of their future away from its leadership and engaging in peaceful endeavors on an individual basis, because our governments are not interested in peace and they are not interested in our welfare.
Ciao!
Just one caveat to your post…..you should have finished the job when you had the chance and now, my friend, it will cost you a lot more. That is what I meant by “walk the walk”, because you Indians always left the job half done. You can do it again, no one is denying that, but are you willing to pay the asking price this time around? Given your resentment against Pakistan for what you construe as the treachery of Lahore, just remember one thing: India is our enemy and with an enemy you certainly do not fight according the marquis of Queensberry rules! All is fair in love and war.
Satish, think clearly before you decide, because there are a lot of Pakistanis who are quite prepared to die though they are, thankfully, a small minority, but thanks to your anti-Pakistani obsession their numbers are increasing daily. India can push us to the wall, but what happens then, I can not say for sure, because that would be our, both sane Pakistanis and Indians, worst nightmare! That is what I suggested to Shankar in my post to his post and that is what I am suggesting to you; beware the charms of patriotism, for all roads to glory, but lead to the grave!
Incidentally, you might be wondering so allow me to set the record straight. I detest patriotism of the variety, which is so common in our crowded, congested, and polluted homelands. Patria amor, Latin for love of country, never suggested that it should be utilized as an excuse to deny the basic necessities to a vast majority of population, whose only unforgivable sin was that they had the misfortune of being born in the sub-continent. I cry for this beautiful land, India and Pakistan, because there is so much potential in its vast reservoirs of aching humanity that it irks and angers me, when I see this God given talent being held hostage to the whims of an indifferent leadership. The only thing, which is keeping us bonded to the yoke of past is our blind devotion to the idolatry of ideology urged upon by a sense of patriotism, which is neither patriotic nor based on patriotism, but is a visionless mordant echo of our own lack of imaginations.
For the record, I am really critical of Pakistan’s policy in the whole of Kargil episode and in other things, but if anyone assumes that I will willingly condone the other sides’ arguments and logic, then they are mistaken. Just because I hold Pakistan responsible for a host of problems, which ails it presently, I am not necessarily going to offer a carté blanche to the Indian arguments either. In fact, I hold the leaderships of both the nations, not the people, as responsible for the mess, which they have bestowed upon us. I have been absent from Chowk for the last seven months and upon my return, I was horrified to discover that patriotism had reared its ugly head here too. Patriots, in my opinion, are scoundrels wrapped in piety and honor without a shred of common decency in them. Shakespeare once said, “let us kill all the lawyers” and I will rephrase that to say, “let us kill all the patriots”.
Satish, there is a perceptional misunderstanding about my posts on Chowk, because since I have been away, there is a new group of interacters, active on Chowk, who do not know my inclinations and thus, are willing to label me as just another mindless Pakistani uttering the same ill-logical rhetoric. I search for my old friends; Ras, Temporal, Bina Shah, BG, Narain, Slink, Godot, and many more, but alas, my old friends have disappeared and faded away in the mists of this virtual world, where we once engaged in this cyber tete-a-tete.
Incidentally, if anyone reading this rather long and boring post happens to know where the whereabouts of Rishi, please let me know.
Satish, my friend, my hatred for patriotism began one warm summer day in Washington, D.C. nearly sixteen years ago, when I was visiting the Vietnam Wall; another memorial to patriotism, when I saw a mother reading a letter to her son, who had been dead a long time ago, and informing him, through her letter, how she spent her year. Later, I was to learn that she would come to the Wall once a year and read a letter to her son telling him about another year without him. How many mothers in India and Pakistan have been without their sons, husbands, fathers and uncles who never came home, because of patriotism?
Does it not strike you as ironic that in India and Pakistan patriotism has its most ardent supporters in those who will never hear a shot fired in anger and those who have never served a day in the front lines are the most patriotic of them all! So, my friend, instead of hurling abuses at each other, which at the end of day though it may have made us happy, and will not change the reality of our mutual nuclear nightmares one iota, let us find a common ground and see if we can transcend the abyss of acrimony, which divides us. Let us forget the infamies of the past and start anew in the hopes that we may, for once, shall be able to leave the past behind. The future of India and Pakistan lies in its citizens taking the affairs of their future away from its leadership and engaging in peaceful endeavors on an individual basis, because our governments are not interested in peace and they are not interested in our welfare.
Ciao!
#97 Posted by ferozk on May 23, 2000 5:49:05 am
Re: Concerned, Shankar....
Sorry folks, I just ended up with some paperwork that needs to be taken care of ASAP. I will, though, answer your question in detail and post it to this interact site; keep scanning and you will see it.
Shankar, I guess we agree more than we disagree! First impressions on Chowk are always one sided. I will post a reply to your post as soon as I can.
Thanks for your patience folks!
Ciao.
Sorry folks, I just ended up with some paperwork that needs to be taken care of ASAP. I will, though, answer your question in detail and post it to this interact site; keep scanning and you will see it.
Shankar, I guess we agree more than we disagree! First impressions on Chowk are always one sided. I will post a reply to your post as soon as I can.
Thanks for your patience folks!
Ciao.
#96 Posted by krashid on May 23, 2000 3:10:11 am
Siagalph!
I don`t know much about the notion of common Bengal and how valid it is.
But Bengalis have been very impressive all along my life.
In the intellectual field we have a saying for sharpness of Bengalis ``This man has drink the water of Bengal.``
They were quite good in studies even the few who were in then West Pakistan.
There is a memorabilia at Sears tower, in Chicago which is just a reflection of bright mind of Bengal. I don`t know if there is any other NOBEL laureate from this region except Salam and Tagore.
Sadhna!
Reading your and other Indian post, I think two nation theory (or for that matter more than two nation theory) was not only valid in 1947 but also to this day.
If you don`t believe look at the massacre of Sikhs by Indian forces with the backing of whole nation. Massacre of Kashmiris by Indian forces with the backing of whole nation.
And you know action speaks louder than empty words (empty words because in a course of 3-4 months on this board I have seen Indians changing their color from a great friend of Pakistan to their true mentality and are really speaking up their mind and showing their true worth)
I don`t know much about the notion of common Bengal and how valid it is.
But Bengalis have been very impressive all along my life.
In the intellectual field we have a saying for sharpness of Bengalis ``This man has drink the water of Bengal.``
They were quite good in studies even the few who were in then West Pakistan.
There is a memorabilia at Sears tower, in Chicago which is just a reflection of bright mind of Bengal. I don`t know if there is any other NOBEL laureate from this region except Salam and Tagore.
Sadhna!
Reading your and other Indian post, I think two nation theory (or for that matter more than two nation theory) was not only valid in 1947 but also to this day.
If you don`t believe look at the massacre of Sikhs by Indian forces with the backing of whole nation. Massacre of Kashmiris by Indian forces with the backing of whole nation.
And you know action speaks louder than empty words (empty words because in a course of 3-4 months on this board I have seen Indians changing their color from a great friend of Pakistan to their true mentality and are really speaking up their mind and showing their true worth)
#95 Posted by sadna on May 22, 2000 7:07:51 pm
mithuna #90
What you say makes the issue pretty clear. Also remember, there seems to be no rethinking of the ideology(TNT) which is still the instrument of choice by India`s neighbours, to carry subcontinentals on both sides of the border farther and farther away from each other even today, ideologically and politically.
If TNT is indeed junked in future by India`s neighbours(it doesnot seem so at this point in time), then not only Bangladesh, but India, too gets for itself renewed options and the benefit of retooling of nationalities and boundaries. But thats a fact that is sought to be denied recognition by loud cries of `hegemony` and victimhood.
Sadhana
What you say makes the issue pretty clear. Also remember, there seems to be no rethinking of the ideology(TNT) which is still the instrument of choice by India`s neighbours, to carry subcontinentals on both sides of the border farther and farther away from each other even today, ideologically and politically.
If TNT is indeed junked in future by India`s neighbours(it doesnot seem so at this point in time), then not only Bangladesh, but India, too gets for itself renewed options and the benefit of retooling of nationalities and boundaries. But thats a fact that is sought to be denied recognition by loud cries of `hegemony` and victimhood.
Sadhana
#94 Posted by concerned on May 22, 2000 12:56:06 pm
ferozk,
i am afraid you have not addressed the issue that i raised in my post. i am not interested in linking siachen or the intricacies of the planning of kargil. all i wondered was how you could call kargil a `brilliant tactical operation` considering the prevailing mood between indo/pak at that time. that`s all. if you choose not to answer that, that`s fine as well. my post was #92.
i am afraid you have not addressed the issue that i raised in my post. i am not interested in linking siachen or the intricacies of the planning of kargil. all i wondered was how you could call kargil a `brilliant tactical operation` considering the prevailing mood between indo/pak at that time. that`s all. if you choose not to answer that, that`s fine as well. my post was #92.
#93 Posted by shankar on May 22, 2000 11:03:22 am
FerozK
Re # 94
There is absolutely no denying that RAW failed miserably. Indians have freely admitted that in every post Kargil analysis.
RAW is a bumbling ineffective agency. Something for Pakistan to consider. I wonder why Pakistan blames RAW whenever there is a terrorist act commited in Pakistan?! They just dont have the capability to do that.
India has raised her defence spending by 28%. You are right that the money could have been better spent elsewhere. However, there was no objection to the defence hike from the Indian masses. Why?!--because Kargil made Indians resolute that Pakistan will not try that stunt again & get away with it. I`m not saying that thats good or bad. After Kargil there has been an unprecented fervor of patriotism in India, from people of diverse political opinions & religions--not seen since 71. If Pakistan wants to take credit for that, thanks a lot!
If Pakistan had declared war (as per the Geneva convention) & then pulled off a Kargil--it would have been a both, strategic & tactical victory for Pakistan. You would have won the battle. Would you have won the war?--well there`s no sense trying to debate that because neither of us will agree. So the next time Pakistan plans a Kargil, please dont invite our PM to Lahore & feed him halwa-puri.Even your allies consider that bad manners. You know you cant defeat India without the support of your allies.
Pakistan has this undying notion that ``bleeding`` India on Kashmir will ultimately prevail. It only strengtens India`s resolve. Besides, do you not agree that the Kashmir policy is bleeding Pakistan too? Even when Pakistan`s economy was strong, you could`nt budge us out of Kashmir. Right now Pakistan`s economy is precariously anemic.It wouldnt be wise to bleed anymore.
This obsession with Kashmir is sending BOTH nations spiralling down into the same sewer. As an Indian I freely admit that we are not without fault. In fact, I would really like Kashmir to be an independant neutral state. I was hoping that the bus diplomacy would be the first tentative step towards that goal. Unfortunately, Kargil destroyed it.
Re # 94
There is absolutely no denying that RAW failed miserably. Indians have freely admitted that in every post Kargil analysis.
RAW is a bumbling ineffective agency. Something for Pakistan to consider. I wonder why Pakistan blames RAW whenever there is a terrorist act commited in Pakistan?! They just dont have the capability to do that.
India has raised her defence spending by 28%. You are right that the money could have been better spent elsewhere. However, there was no objection to the defence hike from the Indian masses. Why?!--because Kargil made Indians resolute that Pakistan will not try that stunt again & get away with it. I`m not saying that thats good or bad. After Kargil there has been an unprecented fervor of patriotism in India, from people of diverse political opinions & religions--not seen since 71. If Pakistan wants to take credit for that, thanks a lot!
If Pakistan had declared war (as per the Geneva convention) & then pulled off a Kargil--it would have been a both, strategic & tactical victory for Pakistan. You would have won the battle. Would you have won the war?--well there`s no sense trying to debate that because neither of us will agree. So the next time Pakistan plans a Kargil, please dont invite our PM to Lahore & feed him halwa-puri.Even your allies consider that bad manners. You know you cant defeat India without the support of your allies.
Pakistan has this undying notion that ``bleeding`` India on Kashmir will ultimately prevail. It only strengtens India`s resolve. Besides, do you not agree that the Kashmir policy is bleeding Pakistan too? Even when Pakistan`s economy was strong, you could`nt budge us out of Kashmir. Right now Pakistan`s economy is precariously anemic.It wouldnt be wise to bleed anymore.
This obsession with Kashmir is sending BOTH nations spiralling down into the same sewer. As an Indian I freely admit that we are not without fault. In fact, I would really like Kashmir to be an independant neutral state. I was hoping that the bus diplomacy would be the first tentative step towards that goal. Unfortunately, Kargil destroyed it.
#92 Posted by gymnosophist on May 22, 2000 11:03:22 am
Ref Ferozk #: 94
You ask {Firstly, India was mislead and there was a definate Indian intelligence failure, but even more crucial than that, the question which still remains unanswered is what was the reason accounting for the delay in the Indian response to the incursions. Why was there no effective C3I between New Delhi and the troops in the region? Which link, in the Indian Army`s chain of command, was the weakest? Why didn`t the Indian forces pick up the tell-tale signs of activity in the region? How come the much vaunted RAW failed in assessing Pakistani intentions? Why were Indian troops in Kashmir, who are used to urban/counter-insurgency operations, were given the task of clearing the heights, a mission they were not trained for, when India had a mountain brigade in the region, which could easily have done the job. Why did New Delhi tried to minimize the importance of the infilterations and did not react and seemed keen to ignore the warnings of its field commanders who had been warning it? Why was India forced to buy Bofors 155mm shells from South Africa, during the height of active combat operations, to sustain its artillery units in the region? Why was the much celebrated Indian industrial defense complex so inadequate in supplying the combat needs of the Indians that India had to find and buy mountain warfare kits internationally to equip its forces with?}
STUPIDITY.
You ask {Firstly, India was mislead and there was a definate Indian intelligence failure, but even more crucial than that, the question which still remains unanswered is what was the reason accounting for the delay in the Indian response to the incursions. Why was there no effective C3I between New Delhi and the troops in the region? Which link, in the Indian Army`s chain of command, was the weakest? Why didn`t the Indian forces pick up the tell-tale signs of activity in the region? How come the much vaunted RAW failed in assessing Pakistani intentions? Why were Indian troops in Kashmir, who are used to urban/counter-insurgency operations, were given the task of clearing the heights, a mission they were not trained for, when India had a mountain brigade in the region, which could easily have done the job. Why did New Delhi tried to minimize the importance of the infilterations and did not react and seemed keen to ignore the warnings of its field commanders who had been warning it? Why was India forced to buy Bofors 155mm shells from South Africa, during the height of active combat operations, to sustain its artillery units in the region? Why was the much celebrated Indian industrial defense complex so inadequate in supplying the combat needs of the Indians that India had to find and buy mountain warfare kits internationally to equip its forces with?}
STUPIDITY.
#91 Posted by satish on May 22, 2000 11:03:22 am
Re: 94
The sheer shamelessness of some Pakistanis blows me away! Do you think that all the things that happened so far, including ninety thousand prisoners of war in 71, and your prime minister running to US, cap in hand, begging for the war to finish, was not `walk the walk`? What bravado!
As far as your admiration of treachery and perfidy shown by you people in Lahore, well, it fits your personality.
The sheer shamelessness of some Pakistanis blows me away! Do you think that all the things that happened so far, including ninety thousand prisoners of war in 71, and your prime minister running to US, cap in hand, begging for the war to finish, was not `walk the walk`? What bravado!
As far as your admiration of treachery and perfidy shown by you people in Lahore, well, it fits your personality.
#90 Posted by ferozk on May 22, 2000 6:15:52 am
Re: Shankar # 84
First of all, starting, with Nawaz Sharif running off to Washington was simply humilating for Pakistan and it was the final coup d`grace as far as Pakistan was concerned internationally. Kargil was, strategically, a defeat for Pakistan, but it was Phyrric in the sense that it forced the Indians to increase their defense expenditures over 28 percent. India, you are free to disagree with me on this, could have spent that money in better ways and on projects vital to India`s long term interests; education, poverty reduction etc. Due to Kargil, India has embarked on a military spending spree and military spending does, regardless of what anyone thinks, put pressure on the economy to continually justify the military`s share of resources.
As to the involvement of the Pakistan Army, rest assured that it was fighting on the hills in Kargil despite whatever you may have heard. Since you seem to be a patriotic Indian who also seems to have a thin skin when it comes Indian flaws and you get a wee bit too defensive and shrill, not to mention a little anxious, I would encourage you to call Pakistan all the names in all the books in the world if that makes you happy, but please do so in the understanding that it will not alter the basic facts of the Kargil operation.
Firstly, India was mislead and there was a definate Indian intelligence failure, but even more crucial than that, the question which still remains unanswered is what was the reason accounting for the delay in the Indian response to the incursions. Why was there no effective C3I between New Delhi and the troops in the region? Which link, in the Indian Army`s chain of command, was the weakest? Why didn`t the Indian forces pick up the tell-tale signs of activity in the region? How come the much vaunted RAW failed in assessing Pakistani intentions? Why were Indian troops in Kashmir, who are used to urban/counter-insurgency operations, were given the task of clearing the heights, a mission they were not trained for, when India had a mountain brigade in the region, which could easily have done the job. Why did New Delhi tried to minimize the importance of the infilterations and did not react and seemed keen to ignore the warnings of its field commanders who had been warning it? Why was India forced to buy Bofors 155mm shells from South Africa, during the height of active combat operations, to sustain its artillery units in the region? Why was the much celebrated Indian industrial defense complex so inadequate in supplying the combat needs of the Indians that India had to find and buy mountain warfare kits internationally to equip its forces with?
Shankar, next time you mimic empty rhetoric at me, please make sure you have your facts right, as I am not intimidated by patriotic Indian nonsense. You can blame Pakistan all you like and I have nothing against that either, but you should be able to admit your mistakes instead of blaming it on Pakistan, as is the raison d`etre of every Indian. In fact, to be honest with you, I am still waiting for an offical Indian white or saffron paper/report on the Orissa Cyclone and how it was masterminded by the evil ISI! :)
You are absolutely right that trust is earned and not demanded. In case of India and Pakistan, there is and can be no trust, because like you, we do not always trust India and just like you said, our trust can also not be demanded by the Indians either!
Admiral Yamamato not withstanding, please do not raise the spectre of Indian resolve. You know perfectly where we are located and you are more than welcome to acquint us with your dreaded resolve. We have been waiting 53 plus years to see what the Indian resolve is, so we would be greatful to you if you could show it. You folks really know how to talk the talk, but when are you going to walk the walk? :)
A general note to all Indians and Pakistanis: Please stop being so patriotic that it lessens and blinds your ability to see the truth, because it is due to the ``patriots`` in India and Pakistan that there has been no meaningful attempts to normalize the relations and when we all are incinerated in flash of patriotism we would have belately realized that, in order to be a patriot, to have to be alive! Dead patriots do not help anyones` cause de celebre!
Re: concerned (sorry I forgot your post #)
Right you are sir!!!!
Kargil has definately conceptulized a conventional war scenrio within the rubric of a nuclear stand-off and that my friend, is highly dangerous. I think you have hit the nail right on the head, because that is what is scaring the Americans the most since no one, not even V.P. Malik, knows where or how a conventional war is going to end!!!
Concerned, you`re on the right track, bud, just keep following your instincts. Kargil was about Siachen and Pakistan`s attempts to cut the Indian road link to their troops there. If the war had lasted 14-21 days more, India would have had a difficult time in replenishing its troops there for the winter and they would have been forced to withdraw to a lower alititude. I wrote about the op in an article, on Chowk. Just type in my name, f r khan in the search engine and you will find it: if not, let me know and I will track it down and post the link for you! That article will tell you the reasons for Kargil, as seen from the Pakistani military`s perspective.
Ciao!
First of all, starting, with Nawaz Sharif running off to Washington was simply humilating for Pakistan and it was the final coup d`grace as far as Pakistan was concerned internationally. Kargil was, strategically, a defeat for Pakistan, but it was Phyrric in the sense that it forced the Indians to increase their defense expenditures over 28 percent. India, you are free to disagree with me on this, could have spent that money in better ways and on projects vital to India`s long term interests; education, poverty reduction etc. Due to Kargil, India has embarked on a military spending spree and military spending does, regardless of what anyone thinks, put pressure on the economy to continually justify the military`s share of resources.
As to the involvement of the Pakistan Army, rest assured that it was fighting on the hills in Kargil despite whatever you may have heard. Since you seem to be a patriotic Indian who also seems to have a thin skin when it comes Indian flaws and you get a wee bit too defensive and shrill, not to mention a little anxious, I would encourage you to call Pakistan all the names in all the books in the world if that makes you happy, but please do so in the understanding that it will not alter the basic facts of the Kargil operation.
Firstly, India was mislead and there was a definate Indian intelligence failure, but even more crucial than that, the question which still remains unanswered is what was the reason accounting for the delay in the Indian response to the incursions. Why was there no effective C3I between New Delhi and the troops in the region? Which link, in the Indian Army`s chain of command, was the weakest? Why didn`t the Indian forces pick up the tell-tale signs of activity in the region? How come the much vaunted RAW failed in assessing Pakistani intentions? Why were Indian troops in Kashmir, who are used to urban/counter-insurgency operations, were given the task of clearing the heights, a mission they were not trained for, when India had a mountain brigade in the region, which could easily have done the job. Why did New Delhi tried to minimize the importance of the infilterations and did not react and seemed keen to ignore the warnings of its field commanders who had been warning it? Why was India forced to buy Bofors 155mm shells from South Africa, during the height of active combat operations, to sustain its artillery units in the region? Why was the much celebrated Indian industrial defense complex so inadequate in supplying the combat needs of the Indians that India had to find and buy mountain warfare kits internationally to equip its forces with?
Shankar, next time you mimic empty rhetoric at me, please make sure you have your facts right, as I am not intimidated by patriotic Indian nonsense. You can blame Pakistan all you like and I have nothing against that either, but you should be able to admit your mistakes instead of blaming it on Pakistan, as is the raison d`etre of every Indian. In fact, to be honest with you, I am still waiting for an offical Indian white or saffron paper/report on the Orissa Cyclone and how it was masterminded by the evil ISI! :)
You are absolutely right that trust is earned and not demanded. In case of India and Pakistan, there is and can be no trust, because like you, we do not always trust India and just like you said, our trust can also not be demanded by the Indians either!
Admiral Yamamato not withstanding, please do not raise the spectre of Indian resolve. You know perfectly where we are located and you are more than welcome to acquint us with your dreaded resolve. We have been waiting 53 plus years to see what the Indian resolve is, so we would be greatful to you if you could show it. You folks really know how to talk the talk, but when are you going to walk the walk? :)
A general note to all Indians and Pakistanis: Please stop being so patriotic that it lessens and blinds your ability to see the truth, because it is due to the ``patriots`` in India and Pakistan that there has been no meaningful attempts to normalize the relations and when we all are incinerated in flash of patriotism we would have belately realized that, in order to be a patriot, to have to be alive! Dead patriots do not help anyones` cause de celebre!
Re: concerned (sorry I forgot your post #)
Right you are sir!!!!
Kargil has definately conceptulized a conventional war scenrio within the rubric of a nuclear stand-off and that my friend, is highly dangerous. I think you have hit the nail right on the head, because that is what is scaring the Americans the most since no one, not even V.P. Malik, knows where or how a conventional war is going to end!!!
Concerned, you`re on the right track, bud, just keep following your instincts. Kargil was about Siachen and Pakistan`s attempts to cut the Indian road link to their troops there. If the war had lasted 14-21 days more, India would have had a difficult time in replenishing its troops there for the winter and they would have been forced to withdraw to a lower alititude. I wrote about the op in an article, on Chowk. Just type in my name, f r khan in the search engine and you will find it: if not, let me know and I will track it down and post the link for you! That article will tell you the reasons for Kargil, as seen from the Pakistani military`s perspective.
Ciao!
#89 Posted by fuzair on May 22, 2000 1:30:10 am
Re: Shammi #86
Thanks for the advice. Actually, I read it when it first came out although I lent my copy of it to a friend a while ago and have never gotten it back! If you had read some of my other posts, you`d see that I`ve mentioned it more than once.
Zabed #89
Niazi was one of the worst possible choices to command E. Pakistan. No one is quite sure why he was chosen. There was/is some speculation that he was chosen because he was a fairly junior major general and none of the senior officers wanted what was sure to be a disaster of a posting. However, there were other, more competent, junior major generals available even if no lieutenant general wanted the signal honor of being GOC Eastern Command. On the other hand, Niazi did talk a great fight--its only when the crunch came that he showed how worthless he was.
While no one would ever accuse Tikka Khan of being an intellectual general, he was certainly a competent one in that, given a battle plan, he knew how to carry it out. Niazi, from what I`ve been able to gather, fancied himself the bluff and hearty commander type that leads from the front, shabash jawan bahut acha, and planning is for wimps. While ``l`audace, l`audace, toujours l`audace!`` sounds great, it didn`t work in Napoleonic times and it won`t work now. Tikka Khan`s plan for dealing with an Indian invasion of E. Pakistan was for most of the Army to retreat to Burma while the rest defended Dacca--plans for which were put up to Niazi by the G1 Ops Eastern Command several times but he brushed them off saying that an attacking army needed no defensive planning!
Tikka Khan was a realist and had contingency plans based on his assessment that E. Pakistan could not be held against the Indians. Any competent general, not just Tikka Khan, would have done a better job than Niazi. As far as Niazi`s book is concerned, it is self-serving tripe although his basic point that E. Pakistan was lost in the West is a valid one. As for the rest of it, one gets the impression of a victorious attacking army that suddenly surrenders!
Thanks for the advice. Actually, I read it when it first came out although I lent my copy of it to a friend a while ago and have never gotten it back! If you had read some of my other posts, you`d see that I`ve mentioned it more than once.
Zabed #89
Niazi was one of the worst possible choices to command E. Pakistan. No one is quite sure why he was chosen. There was/is some speculation that he was chosen because he was a fairly junior major general and none of the senior officers wanted what was sure to be a disaster of a posting. However, there were other, more competent, junior major generals available even if no lieutenant general wanted the signal honor of being GOC Eastern Command. On the other hand, Niazi did talk a great fight--its only when the crunch came that he showed how worthless he was.
While no one would ever accuse Tikka Khan of being an intellectual general, he was certainly a competent one in that, given a battle plan, he knew how to carry it out. Niazi, from what I`ve been able to gather, fancied himself the bluff and hearty commander type that leads from the front, shabash jawan bahut acha, and planning is for wimps. While ``l`audace, l`audace, toujours l`audace!`` sounds great, it didn`t work in Napoleonic times and it won`t work now. Tikka Khan`s plan for dealing with an Indian invasion of E. Pakistan was for most of the Army to retreat to Burma while the rest defended Dacca--plans for which were put up to Niazi by the G1 Ops Eastern Command several times but he brushed them off saying that an attacking army needed no defensive planning!
Tikka Khan was a realist and had contingency plans based on his assessment that E. Pakistan could not be held against the Indians. Any competent general, not just Tikka Khan, would have done a better job than Niazi. As far as Niazi`s book is concerned, it is self-serving tripe although his basic point that E. Pakistan was lost in the West is a valid one. As for the rest of it, one gets the impression of a victorious attacking army that suddenly surrenders!
#88 Posted by concerned on May 21, 2000 12:40:22 pm
Ferozk,
Thank you for the response. I have read various articles (pakistani and otherwise) on the intent of kargil and as far as I understand, none of those are able to figure out what the real intent was. Establishing a new loc/internationalization of the issue are commonly cited as the motivators. Some also point out that the very purpose was to derail the peace overtures by nawaj and to show who the real bosses are. Anyway, that was not my point.
You said that military tactics are about ensuring surprise . I would agree with that – but that is only if there is some sort of declared war /intention of war , e.g. during desert storm/fox or 1971 or the WWs. What appalls me are the accolades like `brilliant tactical operation`, with respect to the environment at that time. I mean if you hit a person when he thinks you might be a friend, it can not be called a brilliant tactic, or can it? It should really be called cowardice. You can of course differ with this view.
I would have also thought that a pause to the indian bravados after the may tests, was given by the chagai tests. On the other hand, kargil exposed that a limited conventional war could be fought despite the nuclear presence on both sides.
Thank you for the response. I have read various articles (pakistani and otherwise) on the intent of kargil and as far as I understand, none of those are able to figure out what the real intent was. Establishing a new loc/internationalization of the issue are commonly cited as the motivators. Some also point out that the very purpose was to derail the peace overtures by nawaj and to show who the real bosses are. Anyway, that was not my point.
You said that military tactics are about ensuring surprise . I would agree with that – but that is only if there is some sort of declared war /intention of war , e.g. during desert storm/fox or 1971 or the WWs. What appalls me are the accolades like `brilliant tactical operation`, with respect to the environment at that time. I mean if you hit a person when he thinks you might be a friend, it can not be called a brilliant tactic, or can it? It should really be called cowardice. You can of course differ with this view.
I would have also thought that a pause to the indian bravados after the may tests, was given by the chagai tests. On the other hand, kargil exposed that a limited conventional war could be fought despite the nuclear presence on both sides.
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- majumdar: Romair, Same could actually be... G-8: RIP?
- nkg: dm... http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/srivastava/default.aspx watch this guy. he... G-8: RIP?
- nkg: Re: # 81 chalta... US model... G-8: RIP?
- zeemax: Eating pig meat was... Hail Obama
- bulleya: majumdar #: "You keep... G-8: RIP?
- MatloobZaman: Columnists be they conduct... Urdu News Columnists and
- MatloobZaman: Janab Aziz Akhmad sahib and... Urdu News Columnists and
- MatloobZaman: Re: # 18 Aziz Ahmed... Urdu News Columnists and
