Game Theory and Pakistan

Sorry for hastily submitting it twice. How can I delete one of the two?

When a general grabs the top position in Pakistan, the game becomes infinite. When ever there is a possibility that the GEneral will have to choose, or may have to face the music of his own making, he changes the tune. The rules change, the rules that prevent changing of rules (i.e. writ of the land, aka the constitution) are changed by re interpreting the constitution. Pakistani Constitution is similar to the Holy Book, every body and his brother has a way to interpret it fir profit.
Pakistan Paindabad. Kab tak?

When a general grabs the top position in Pakistan, the game becomes infinite. When ever there is a possibility that the GEneral will have to choose, or may have to face the music of his own making, he changes the tune. The rules change, the rules that prevent changing of rules (i.e. writ of the land, aka the constitution) are changed by re interpreting the constitution. Pakistani Constitution is similar to the Holy Book, every body and his brother has a way to interpret it fir profit.
Pakistan Paindabad. Kab tak?

In response to Ali1 (Reply # 68)

Dear Ali:

Thank you for your response. I would appreciate if you reproduce the list on this forum. How could you tell from the list/name that a person is UPite or not (unless you know the person or his/her biodata)?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

P.S. On the Chowk, please address me with my first name.

Re: Mohajir

Los Angeles Times, Mohajir, Mansoor Ijaz and the problem of Descent:

Not even the Amnesty International has been allowed to get into Kashmir. Now, then, this Gentleman Mansoor gets there from New York for the Los Angeles Times.

Did the New York Times reject the writeup? One wonders.

The relationship among Nuclear Physics, Pakistan, investments, [I mean he is not Solomon....!]and sojourn in Kashmir as a journalist is interesting. My friend, krashid, has gone hoarse on the Chowk telling all and sundry that India does not allow any journalists to go into Kashmir, and yet we suddenly learn that Los Angeles Times has a special relationship with India to get this gentleman to saunter around the Srinagar`s Boulevard.

Now, this takes us to the question of his descent. Now and then Mohajir is sure about some things. Ijaz is sure about what he is. I am not. Incidentally, ``descent`` is a biological relation, not a domicile-related or a birth-place referent. The gentleman could not have descended from Pakistan. Perhaps one should be more careful about its use.

I must say that the whole thing read curiouser and curiouser as I went through it. Well ...,

Harish #67

My dear Harish:

I visited Chowk and yours was the only letter I read before I folded it. I did it because to address a letter written in the genre of your choice, it is not necessary to know the topic of discussion in depth, nor to become familiar with the history by reading all the previous letters. The item, as it were, stands alone for the pleasure of somebody to kick it to smithreens. I chose to do that:

You seem to be making a reference to posts #61, Concerned; #62, Cheraym; and #64, friend.

At the end of the letter you offer regards to them. Well, fine, although out of the level-headed ordinary.

But then after making promise of spilling blood, you wish to see them there.

Are you going to spill //their// blood or spill blood //with them// of somebody else, as yet unnamed?

After reading your post, the threat of spilling blood of -- concerned, friend, or that vitriolic-charming lady, from my favourite Southern State Cheraym -- this summer, sounds as more of your intention. ``( See you this summer on the slopes of the Himalayas..)``. [I guess, Hareesh, you are still spilling the blood of English language].

Be that as it may, it seems that a ``brain-challenged`` is talking about the ``intellectually challenged``. Now, that is pot calling the kettle black. Or, as a Jullunder lady who, failing to pick up our language would shout at servants in Punjabi, but taught our family - after indicating that Punjabi and English were very close - the meaning of ``chhaj té bolé, ChhaniN ki bolé``. I may be mistaken but it sounds pretty close to ``pot calling the... .``

Harish, my dear, till next time

RE Prof Bilal # 58

The list of 313 has been published several times over in Pakistani media. I read about it in an issue of Urdu Digest in the eighties. The 313 were a mix of CSS and PCS officers, and going by the last names, most of them were UPites. As for the reason of their dismissal, our guess is as good as mine.

Concerned # 61, cheraym # 62, friend # 64

Umairr nor any other Pakistani need reply to my posts. We (Indians and Pakistanis) disagree on Kashmir. I was just pointing out to some of the more ``intellectually challenged`` Pakistanis why their argument on Kashmir holds no water. This is one issue which words can not settle. War is the only way. And this would have been an even more preferable option in `47, as opposed to the ``peace`` we have enjoyed these last 53 years. See you this summer on the slopes of the Himalayas.

Regards,

Harish

To Umair, Furair, FerozK and all other military types,

Read this interesting article from Defence Journal, ``A monthly magazine dedicated to projecting the Armed Forces of Pakistan in their True Perspective``

http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/apr/war-lost.htm ``The war of lost opportunities

(Part I) by Maj (Retd) AGHA HUMAYUN AMIN``

Sequence of events stated by this article is

1. Pathans aided by Pakistani army officers in civilian uniform attacked Kashmir

2. Maharaja signed (not this word) instrument of accension

3. Pakistani army, somtimes by disobeying the civilians masters, joined the fight

4. Overriding British suggestions against opening another front, Sardar Patel decided for action in Hyderabad

5. Indian army enters and pushes back Pathans and Pak army regulars

Regards

In response to SameerJB (Reply # 63)

Dear Sameer:

Your statement (of course out of context): “In Punjab and Sindh, in the areas of education and business, Muslims remained behind their non-Muslims neighbors all the way to 1947.”

Comment: Is this statement still true in the larger South Asian context both in terms of the quantity and quality of education? If yes, what do we need to do to bring much need social change?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Harish#60, Concerned #41,

Umair won`t reply!! Don`t waste your time on him.

Regards

harimau (#57): The momentum for a trend or fashion has to do with many factors. There are many many instances where a particular trend attracts a large number of followers in one area and does not gain popularity in other places. As I mentioned in my previous post, not just in South India, but within area of majority Muslim population of Indus valley, large numbers of people retained their Hindu religion. If it was anything like, covert or lose your head or perish, they would not have survived through centuries of Islamic empires.

A trend gets going in religious terms through a combination of factors including magic, miracles, marketing, publicity, propaganda and, of course, benefits. The most nefefits are those of earliest converts. They were usually yeomen, vassals and people of affluence like officials and land-holding individuals. It works like a pyramid scheme, similar to Amway business where the later convertees get no benefit. That is what I meant by stating that there were no benefits for the future generations of Muslims in almost all areas of life. In Punjab and Sindh, in the areas of education and business, Muslims remained behind their non-Muslims neighbors all the way to 1947.

Let me give a known example from my ancestral area along the river Ravi. A Sufi named Makhdoom Jahanian Jahan Gasht is credited for coverting large number of people on both side of Ravi. He was aristocratic, a favorite of Firoze Tughlaq and not at all people priest. His lifestyle and buddy-buddy with the elite led to the conversion of few big land owning families for the reasons as simple as praying for pregnant women to have son instead of daughter. Over time many more people converted from the artisan classes and those who provide survices to elite.

The success of Evangelic Christianity in the tribal belt, in my opinion, is more economical and social. A model society, according to modern Christian missioneries is a city model with social services including schools, healthcare and other benefits. It helps a lot for backward and rural tribes to become Christian and enjoy some of the benefits of modern city life without moving to cities.

I hope you understand that these are just opinions and not expert opinions. I would like to hear what you think were the main reasons for successful conversions in certain parts of India and unsuccessful in others.

Regards,

Sameer

Harish:

If you follow up Chowk regularly, I like many other regulars of Chowk asked questions in your line to Umairr, he never responds, but comes back with same rattling after a few weeks. Keeps on harping ``rights of Kashmiris``.... This is exactly the problem, and that is why there is no logical solution to Kashmir.

As in a joint family, one has to sacrifice for the greater good of the family, Kashmiris have to think what is the right thing they should do also!

It is as simple as that.

Now don`t ask me again what is the greater good for India, it has been explained so many times by so many people. It is the same logic why India is not supporting ELAM in Srilanka.

what? no roars from the lion of kashmir, once confronted with inconvenient questions yet again?

sigh...i guess one would have to wait for yet another new guy to appear on chowk for the lion`s target and we would go through this cycle once more...

i hope not. please spare us umairr!

Umairr # 43

“Take Pakistan completely out of the picture for a moment. Assume that whatever Pakistan has been doing [in Kashmir] is incorrect. Now what should be the humane solution to the problems of Kashmiris. Should it be a solution that you want for them, or should it be a solution that they want for themselves.”

Let me ask you Umairr. What exactly is the problem of the Muslim Kashmiris? How would you define it? Is it that a large amount of Muslim Kashmiris don’t want to be a part of Hindu majority India? If the answer is yes, lets not leave it at that, as most Pakistanis do, but delve deeper into the problem. Is this enough of a reason for people to break away - because they simply want to? In your opinion, do people need valid reasons to become independent from a larger group? When that desired independence directly affects the freedoms of other people (as did the independence of Muslims of Northwest India impact the freedoms of the non-Muslims in the region in 1947), I think a valid reason is required. What do you think?

What valid reasons might Kashmiri Muslims have? They say that they want to break away from India because they are a religious MINORITY, and they are afraid of religious persecution from the Hindus. Whatever one thinks about how valid those fears are, the basic message is that as a MINORITY, Muslim Kashmiris don’t want their rights trampled on, just as the Muslims of Northwest India didn’t want their rights trampled on in ‘47. So what do some of these Kashmiri Muslims want? They want, as did the Muslims of Northwest India in 1947, a separation or partition from the rest of India along religious lines.

But I have a problem with this. My problem is that all these religion based partitions in the name of “minority rights” trample over the religious minorities who are forced to leave their native lands whether they be Pundits in Kashmir or Sikhs and Hindus in 1947. This is the ultimate hypocrisy of Pakistanis in general and in particular with regard to Kashmir. Why don’t you admit it Umairr? You don’t care about humans. You only care about Muslims.

This is what Pakistanis do not understand about Indians. We don’t harp on Partition because we “can’t get over the fact that Pakistan is no longer a part of India.” If Pakistanis want to live separately, by all means go ahead. But why do they have to steal our land to do it? In order for Pakistanis to assert their own “rights” and “self-determination,” they have to force everyone else (about 18 million in 1947 I think) to surrender their own rights and “self-determination.”

India insisting that Kashmir remain a part of the Indian union does not curb the freedoms of Kashmiris -- Muslim or otherwise. The Indian union doesn’t care what Kashmiris do so long as all people, belonging to whatever religious or ethnic community, enjoy the same rights guaranteed in the Indian constitution. And if Kashmiri Muslims don’t want to interact with Kashmiri Hindus, no problem – no one is forcing them to. But if Kashmiri Muslims want to force non-Muslims to leave as did the hypocritical Pakistanis in ’47 in the name of “minority rights,” that is a problem.

So what’s the solution, Umairr? I’ll tell you. Give it up. Stop thinking you’re argument is so logical. Why hasn’t the world embraced Pakistan’s position on Kashmir? Maybe because they understand that religious based amputations are not a solution to one group of people not liking another. Or maybe there are other reasons why the world fails to see Kashmir the way Pakistan does…maybe its the dastardly work of the brilliant Indian lobby, eh Umairr? After all, they’ve been so effective in all other arenas these past 53 years.

Regards,

Harish

In response to Ali1 (Reply # 58)

Dear Ali:

You wrote: ``(Almost all the 313 CSS officers kicked out by Bhutto were UPites). What is the source of your information? Were they all CSS officers? Are you suggesting that the UPites were overwhlmingly corrupt and/or inefficient? Or, were they victimized because they were UPites?

I personally tend to doubt the veracity of your statement. So, please clarify.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Sameer # 55

Thanks for your response Sameer. You seem to agree with me that Siddiquis, Farooquis and Usmanis are native converts rather than direct decendents of the Sahaba-e-Rasool(PBUH). These folks have fully benefited from conversion and have also been socially accepted by the invading/conquering muslims.

From an economic point of view: they formed the bulk of what Hamza Alavi calls the UP salariat class. In 1857, UP muslims despite being just 13% of the population held 64% of the British colonial service jobs. They also formed the bulk of muslim officers in ICS and later on in Pakistani civil services. (Almost all the 313 CSS officers kicked out by Bhutto were UPites).

Check out the decendents of these converted muslims at any Pakistani engineers or doctors conference in North America. They certainly seem to be in a majority there.

The large number of Pashtuns and Mughals (Conquerors) settled in UP and Bihar freely intermarried with the converted muslims. Every ``Siddiqui`` will tell you of a ``Mirza`` or ``Khan`` aunt or Uncle.

Today, because of continued prosperity and intermarriages, the converted muslims of UP and Bihar are indistinguishable from the Muslim Ashrafia (conqueror) class of those provinces.

The backwardness of lower caste converts in Punjab (whom you call choorah, chammaar etc.) can be partially attributed to the fact that conversion in Punjab was across caste boundaries; the jatts, the gujjars, the rajputs converted alongwith the chooras and chammars. The newly converted high castes presumably didn`t want to break the class barriers. Why blame the conquering muslims? If they were willing to embrace the converts in UP and Bihar, why wouldn`t they do it in Punjab?

Ref SameerJB #: 54

``The conversion was mainly due to momentum and trend; not due to life threatening situation. The momentum and trend is currently non-existent in India even among Shudras (reply to harimau #51).``

What might be the sociological factors from about 900AD to 1700AD that created a momentum and trend of conversion to Islam? How come this trend and momentum did not manifest itself in South India to the same extent as it did in North India even when the South has had Muslim rulers? (I can go look up some history of South India and start listing nawabs and faujdars of every little town in South India to prove that the Muslims ruled the South as viceroys of the Nizam of Hyderabad, or Hyder Ali/Tipu Sultan. Let us not forget that the British/French battles in the Carnatic were over who would succeed to some obscure throne and included the Nawab of Arcot, Chanda Sahib, and a host of justly-forgotten Muslim overlords. So let not anyone deny that the South was also under Muslim rule after the fall of the Vijayanagar empire.)

``The benefits of conversion were nowhere to be seen for the majority. The prosperity, role of women, literacy, caste system and everything in between did not even give marginal edge for Muslims in the mixed neighborhoods or villages.``

So why would a Hindu convert at all to Islam? You seem to be contradicting your previous statement about there being momentum and trend toward conversions.

``A large number of untouchables remained Hindus until Christianized during British Raj.``

Even today, the Christian missionaries are active only in the tribal belts of India. The Church of Northern India has its strength in the tribal belts of Bihar and Madhya Pradesh and most increase in Christian population is among the tribals of the Northeastern states. How come there is no momentum or trend towards conversion to Christianity, either under the British or now? (Actually, there are more conversions to Christianity now than under the British, who didn`t want the boat rocked.)

Sameer:#54

Your replies to Ali & others.

You seem to be thoroughly confused,and these passages are a proof of it.It seems that now you are spinning out theories of your own.Could other readers please explain to me what sameer is trying to say?

Are conversions in America taking place to fit your theory? What `momentum` trend is involved here? Is it possible for people to convert where no material benefits are promised,where the creed you are converting being the most vilified & hated by those who hold all the promises of earthly comforts.

That is why it is so important to learn from the Ulema.``Science`` even at its apex is nothing but a handmaiden of learned people from ALL faiths in general & Islam in particular.

This is such an obvious (almost axiomatic) observation that it would be an insult to everyones intelligence(even yours) to even try to explain it them.

__________________________________________________

Ali1,

My posts were more of a tirade against the insensitive, callous, intelectually demented and emotionally bankrupt conceptualisation of wars and invations as a `game theory` candidate.

I just used the conversion as one example of the absurdity the theoretical framework could lead to. Details are not very important.

jay

Ali1(#50): Trying to rationally analyze religious conversions is an area which has fascinated me for few years now. Unfortunately it quickly becomes a shouting match, much like Kashmir issue, because most of us (Indians/ Pakistanis) come to the table with preconcieved and biased notions and both sides can selectively point out the weaknesses of the other side. That is why, I was a bit vague when I said:

``Many Desis hoped to turn their loss into a non-zero sum, win-win situation by converting to the ways of the victors.``

Many Desis niether implies most Desis, nor some Desis. There is no denying that earliest conversions were for beneficial purpose. They were mostly influential people whose areas came under the rule of Arab and later Afghan and Turkic invaders. Before answering your specific questions, let me point out certain facts.

1) There were lot less percent of Shudras in the indus valley than rest of India. The pre-aryan people moved east and south to run for their lives from the successive invading waves. A large number of those left behind were absorbed due to much liberal attitude of vedic aryans in the indus valley. This liberal attitude is repeatedly criticized in Mahabharata.

2) The conversion did not bring equality for the lowest caste and untouchables. They are still called Mussali, Mirasi, Chamaar( Mochi), Bhangi, Dhobi etc. They still socialize within their caste and very few of them have ever achieved even a middle class status.

3) We (Pakistanis) has great deal of romanticism associated with Sufis. In reality, there were many who did not succeed in proselytizing any significant number of people. Even within Punjab, Haryana (so close to Delhi) remained largely Hindus. In west Punjab, many villages had 10-50% non-Muslim population in 1947. The conversion was mainly due to momentum and trend; not due to life threatening situation. The momentum and trend is currently non-existent in India even among Shudras (reply to harimau #51).

4) The benefits of conversion were nowhere to be seen for the majority. The prosperity, role of women, literacy, caste system and everything in between did not even give marginal edge for Muslims in the mixed neighborhoods or villages.

5) Muslims generally were not enthusiastic when it came to converting Shudras. Shudras were actually last to convert, mainly because they were services provider and accepted the religion of their clientele. A large number of untouchables remained Hindus until Christianized during British Raj.

I am not familiar with the background of Usmanis or Ansaris from UP and Bihar and can not comment.I would guess that selecting particular last names must be a trend in UP and Bihar, instead of genetic descendents. It is impossible to have 10 million or more descendents of five people (Mohammad, Abu Bakr, Omar, Usman and Ali) in 1400 years, in South Asia alone.

shammi #49

A similarly solid post a few months ago on the same topic? Then as now, well put.

Ref ali1 #: 50

``What about the sudras? They were so happy cleaning the Brahmin potties that they took the muslim victory as a loss for themselves!! un-believable!``

Yes, what about the sudras in India today? They are not crowding the local mosques to become Muslims, are they? So, extending your logic, it is obvious that the sudras find it preferable to clean the Brahmin potties than to become Muslims. Rather a sad commentary on Islam, don`t you think?

``I get sick of the false Brahmin claim of rape of Hindu women by the invaders. Dear Jay, don`t you know that high caste Hindus (e.g. Rajputs) were more than willing to give (marry) their women to the invaders, so where is the need for rape?``

The Rajput women of Chitorgarh committed mass suicide by burning themselves when defeat was seen to be inevitable than to be defiled by the invaders. You are taking the cases of Jahangir`s mother being the daughter of the Raja of Amber, Shahjahan`s mother being the daughter of Raja Udai Singh of Marwar, and Jahangir marrying the daughter of Raja Keshav Das Rathor as yet another wife. Other than these three marriages which were entered into so that the relationship between the Mughal emperor and his mansubdars could be strengthened, can you show me documented evidence of marriages willingly entered into by Rajput women, or any other Hindu women, with Muslims? When caste barriers were so high and Muslims were considered mlecchas (lower than Untouchables), why would anyone arrange for his daughter to be married to a Muslim? Even today, it is the few well-known folks like Shah Rukh Khan and Mansur Ali Khan Pataudi who marry Hindu women.

Let me point out that the Mughal emperor`s descendants had to marry among the princely classes. Shahryar (son of Jahangir through Nurjahan) married Nurjahan`s daughter by her first marriage to Sherafgan Khan. Hello? Are you listening? This idiot married his half-sister because there wasn`t anybody of suitable rank for him to marry. (Probably giving rise to that common Desi term of abuse behn * * * *). (Information on Mughal dynastic marriages from ``The Jahangirnama: Memoirs of Jahangir, Emperor of India``, translated by Wheeler M. Thackston.) So don`t make the laughable claim that Hindu women voluntarily married Muslim men. And there is no mad rush for nikkahs in India between Hindu women and Muslim men today just like the mosque doors are not being beaten down by the Dalits wanting to become Muslims.

I know it is tough to accept the fact that your ancestors were rapists but face up to the truth for truth liberates you.

Interesting perspective here.
Unfortunately the parasites of Pakistan have
the luxury of moving somewhere else when the
pickings get too slim. It is the common man
who will suffer till the day he can bear no more.
I wait for that day....

Sameer Sahib,

my questions:

``Many Desis hoped to turn their loss into a non-zero sum, win-win situation by converting to the ways of the victors.``

What about the sudras? They were so happy cleaning the Brahmin potties that they took the muslim victory as a loss for themselves!! un-believable!

``The winners expected the converts to completely lose their previous identities and accept the native identities of the victors but the Desis turned out to be too resistant to abandon their past identities completely.``

Do you think that Faruquis, Usmains, Ansaris of UP and Bihar would want to revert back to their sudra/lower caste identities? Think again. Maybe taking on the new identity was the desire of the convertees rather than the victors.

jay # 26

``The heros of pakistan, the Gaznavis, invade india to loot, pillage and rape, the poor hindus to save their lives, convert to islam, this is transforming a zero sum game to a non-zero sum game.``

I get sick of the false Brahmin claim of rape of Hindu women by the invaders. Dear Jay, don`t you know that high caste Hindus (e.g. Rajputs) were more than willing to give (marry) their women to the invaders, so where is the need for rape?

Re: Umairr, Reply # 43

I will take on the MINOR points made by Umairr first:

`` Pakistan has openly stated that it has no territorial ambitions over Kashmir.``

-- Then explain Pakistan`s disgust with the Indian occupation of Siachen. Siachen is part of Kashmir. The Pakistani reaction cannot be explained on the basis of technicalities of the definition of the LoC (as defined in the 1972 Simla Agreement) alone. Is it a territorial dispute or is it not? India certainly feels that it is. That is why both sides have soldiers in Siachen enforcing (or trying to atleast) their will on each other.

`` It (Kashmir) also has, on the average, the most yearly killings of civilians in the world.``

-- Wrong. Even if you accept the AHPC numbre (70,000 civilian and security forces dead over 10 years, ie. 7000/year. Official GOI figures are 25000) this number is much smaller than several current conflicts (e.g. Bosnia, former Yugoslavia, Chechnya, war-induced famine in Ethiopia/Eritrea, Rwanda).

`` It is a well-accepted fact that Kashmir has the highest ratio of soldiers to civilians in the world.``

-- This by itself does not mean much. What would the ratio be in one of the desolate, unpopulated Aleutian Islands where there are perhaps two (2) USAF personnel? Such comparisons are meaningless and are demagogic. The nature of the terrain, acclimatization time needed at high altitude, defensive strategy, etc. are crucial factors. However, these ratios are easy to explain and understand. They make great press copy, too! Perhaps, that is why you quoted it. The ratio changes as threat perceptions change. BTW, the oft-quoted `700,000 security forces` figure in Pakistani media includes the following - Indian Army mountain divisions in Siachen, Kargil sector, Ladakh (towards China), and the entire LoC; Border Roads Organization, Indo-Tibetan Border Police, Air Force persoonel, various federal and state outfits. The civilian-facing or counter-insurgency units are likely much fewer than the 700,000 figure.

Now on to the MAJOR points:

`` If you think that Pakistan is the main cause of the problem, then why not hold a vote of only the local Kashmiris, and get the whole problem over with… The whole Indian stand on Kashmir is self-contradictory and illogical``

-- Actually not. The Indian stand on Kashmir is based upon realpolitik and legal arguments. True, a plebiscite in the Valley will probably not go India`s way today - it may lean towards independence! But as many Pakistani politicians have so eloquently demonstrated - merely holding elections (or plebiscite) is no guarantor of democracy or results to everybody`s satisfaction - in this case to India`s satisfaction. My friend, politics is the art of the impossible - contradictions in positions are an inescapable reality and a necessary ingredient. The Indian concern is as follows -- (i) hold a plebiscite, (ii) the Valley votes for independence, (iii) other disaffected religious/ethnic groups in India want their pound of flesh, (iv) in a few years you have opened a can of worms, and India becomes ungovernable - not a pleasant outcome for India, its neighbors or the rest of the world; just as the disintegration of Pakistan is a nightmare for India. It is possible that Kashmir could be independent and the rest of the nightmarish/alarmist scenario may never materialize. However, the risk and cost/benefit analysis dictates that India oppose the plebiscite. This is also the reason why that China opposes it. Note: Both India and China were jointly opposed to NATO intervention in Kosovo, UN intervention in East Timor (for realpolitik reasons).

Further, what is to prevent Pakistan from `Talibanizing` an independent Kashmir? Who can guarantee that that won`t happen? No elected government in India could rationalize that as a positive outcome to the Indian people. You will probably respond with theoretical safeguards and guarantees, but I doubt that they could be sold to a majority in India.

Also, the current trajectories (economic and political) of Pakistan and India are diverging --- with India emerging as a rising power and Pakistan sinking towards anarchy. This belief (which has been long-held in India since Independence) is finally coming to fruition. In that context, it would seem foolish to `let Kashmir go` when India can negotiate from a position of strength. Even Mansoor Ijaz thinks that Kashmiris will come around to rally behind India, albeit reluctantly, due to the economic disparity between India and Pakistan. It would be certainly foolish to risk a plebiscite at this stage.

Further, due to brazen `mujahideen`/`terrorist` attacks on civil authority, Pakistan`s reneging on commitments during Lahore `yatra` by Vajpayee, Musharraf coup, and last year`s Kargil invasion have severely weakened Pakistan`s moral standing in the world over Kashmir affairs in a relative quick order. This reality has not escaped the attention of Indian planners and the public. The world is rightly disgusted by alleged human rights abuses in Kashmir (as are many in India), but it is also very alive to the `Talibanization` of Afghanistan and the situation in Paksitan. There is no incentive at this point to give total independence to Kashmir.

Also, the Constitution of India does not allow plebiscites or secession of states. That is not a trifling matter. A plebiscite will require a constitutional amendment - an unlikely prospect. Then there is the matter of a Parliament resolution that calls for the integration of POK with India`s J&K. Note: UN resolutions carry less weight in India than Parliamentary resolutions. The Simla Agreement has also ruled out the role of UN or any third parties in J&K.

You might still ask: What about morality and principles, leaving aside realpolitik and legal hurdles? Here the Kashmiri is on stronger ground, and India (principally the Congress governments in the Center in cahoots with Farooq Abdullah) on the weaker. However, the appropriate thing to do here is to strengthen democracy and local self-governance in Kashmir, rather than to uproot it and invite the `Taliban-style` forces of jehad. (I have no illusions regarding the fate of Kashmir, if India were to pull out.) There is tremendous scope of improvement for strengthening democracy and local self-governance, before `dangerous` (from India`s perspective) ideas of independence can be entertained. I think that India`s actions in the past have roiled the waters in Kashmir, and Pakistan has found it convenient to fish in troubled waters. There is a tremendous, powerful wave of federalism and states-rights sweeping Indian politics currently. Most of this has occurred since 1990 - the year the `trouble` in Kashmir began. The unusual situation in Kashmir has caused it to miss out on most of these benefits impacting the rest of India. With normalcy restored, I think that the chances of Kashmir exacting its special privileges under Article 370 of the Indian Constitution will improve, not diminsh. If and when that fails, independence remains an option.

Ref sadna #: 47

Why talk about elections? The latest news is that the census is in trouble because the ``Kashmiri Nationalists`` have declared that any government official taking part in the census is a traitor and will meet with severe consequences. Of course, we remember the ban on cinemas and threats to women in Srinagar who dared to wear jeans.

Why is it that if some Indian Army soldiers rape Kashmiri women that is a human rights violation but if pious Islamic men rape their womenfolk it is because the ``woman was asking for it`` by dressing provocatively?

Umairr #43

``. It is a well-accpeted fact that Kashmir has the highest ratio of soldiers to civilians in the world.``

Let it be well-accepted that Kashmir has one of the highest ratio of foreign-infiltrated and armed militants in the world, then we can talk.

What I remember of the last `local elections`, the Kashmiris who stood for election were deemed traitors and many political activists were killed. Advertisements were brought out in local newspapers threatening death to those who dared to vote. I respect election boycotts by a beleagured populace, I donot respect armed threats and their sponsors.

Sadhana

BTW, I never did get an answer about JKLF and the Pakistani Army`s role in quashing it. Was it because it was pro-independence and not pro-Pakistani?

FOOD FOR THOUGHT: Similarity between India and Pak situation

Atal Behari Vajpayee of India and Gen Pervez Musharraf of Pakistan both came to power at the same time in October last year.

Vajpayee is the head of a diverse coalition of over a dozen parties, most of whom have little in common with each other and most of whom do not identify with the BJP`s agenda. Yet Vajpayee has been able to hold the coalition together with his `moderate` image - otherwise `secular` parties like the DMK, TMC and TDP would have nothing to do with the BJP... the only thing common to them is that all were opposed to the Congress last year in their respective states.

My question is: What are the implications if something `happens` to either Vajpayee or Musharraf, if one or both players are no longer around.

Consider Pakistan first. Is there a clear line of succession after Musharraf in the army? PM has some credibility in the Pak army (despite having superseded senior generals), some credibility with the Pak intelligentsia and the people (despite not being elected) and the international community has also grudgingly accepted the coup (though they may not say so in public). Would PM`s successor, if from the army, have the same level of credibility with all sections of Pak society and the international community? Would the political parties sense blood and become rejuvenated? What is the likely outcome? Will there be an increase in instability?

Similarly for India, the regional parties support the BJP only because of Vajpayee`s `moderate` face. Would LK Advani or anyone else command the same degree of support (esp for difficult decisions, like subsidy cuts and Sri Lanka)? Would the coalition currently held together by Vajpayee stick together? Or would there likely be a period of instability and fall of the govt. Would there be any change of policy, esp w.r.t Pakistan?

Vajpayee being older than PM, the Indian scenario is more likely, (morbid thought), though neither may happen. Either scenario in my opinion would lead to change of govt and increased instability in the sub-continent. Interesting how our fates are so dependent upon one individual in each country...

Any comments?

On the Question of, Los Angeles Times, Mohajir, Mansoor Ijaz and the problem of Descent: A short essay on `now`

Now, not even the Amnesty International has been allowed to get to Kashmir. Now, then, this Mansoor fellow gets there from New York.

Now, the New York Times rejected the writeup.

Now that, he failed his Nuclear Physics to get into investments, I mean he is not Solomon....!

Now, therefore, that Los Angeles Times has a special relationship with India to get this

fellow to saunter around the Srinagar`s Boulevard.

Now, this takes us to the question of his descent. Now and then Mohajir is sure about

things. Ijaz is sure.

Now, I am not. I will accept it when I see it. Now, before I close, and incidentally, ``descent`` is a biological relation, not a domicile or birth place referent, now one should be careful how to use it. Not to be continued...

Dear Sameer,

Though you did not mention it, the zero-sum mindset has been the bane of GOI too since Nehru. A new paradigm is needed by both India and Pakistan. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Dear Sameer,

Though you did not mention it, the zero-sum mindset has been the bane of GOI too since Nehru. A new paradigm is needed by both India and Pakistan. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

sadna #38: ``They(and the Pakistani people by association) are already exerting a lot of choice in which Kashmiris deserve to live and which to die.

The Pakistani state rewards political disaffection/alienation with death or dire punishment. The Indian state by contrast has more sensitivity to political disaffection and has on many occasions accomodated it.``

Pakistan has openly stated that it has no territorial ambitions over Kashmir. It wants the Kashmiris to decide for themselves. If India makes a similar statement, the whole problem will be over.

The Indian state perhaps has some sensitivity to political disaffection, but the Indian state also seems to have different rules for Indian Kashmir and the rest of India. The actions of the Indian state in Kashmir, supported and encouraged by the average Indian, are far from sensitive. It is a well-accpeted fact that Kashmir has the highest ratio of soldiers to civilians in the world. It also has, on the average, the most yearly killings of civilians in the world. I would not call that sensitivity.

Take Pakistan completely out of the picture for a moment. Assume that whatever Pakistan has been doing is incorrect. Now what should be the humane solution to the problems of Kashmiris. Should it be a solution that you want for them, or should it be a solution that they want for themselves.

If you think that Pakistan is the main cause of the problem, then why not hold a vote of only the local Kashmiris, and get the whole problem over with. Pakistan will be exposed, and what you say will prove correct? If the vote is held by a neutral organization, then the infiltrators from Pakistan will not be allowed to vote, and we will know the actual feelings of the local Kashmiris. Yet India is unwilling to do that. The whole Indian stand on Kashmir is self-contradictory and illogical. Either hold a vote and accept the result, or don`t blame Pakistan for being the main cause of the Kashmir problem. Blame India`s own actions. And most of all admit to the fact that India is forcing Kashmiris to live with India against their own free will.

Do you accept the fact that India is forcing the Kashmiris to live with India against their free will? Do you accept the fact that if a vote was held in Kashmir today, the Kashmiris would definitely vote against India? If your answer to the above two questions is, ``No.`` then you should support an immediate vote to expose Pakistan. If your answer to the above two questions is, ``Yes,`` then by not supporting an independent Kashmir, you are forcing your will on other human beings.

I would have much more respect for an Indian who had the courage to state the above truthfully, (i.e. India is forcing the Kashmiris to stay with India against their will), and if the Kashmiris and Pakistanis do not like it, tough luck. The people whom I have no respect are the ones who are unwilling to even admit that India is holding onto Kashmir through human rights vioations, and against the will of the locals. These people are in a state of denial, and will always attempt to find outside reasons to justify India`s actions in Kashmir. Please remember that every genocide, holocaust, massive suppression is actually justified by the oppressors. Unfortunately their are very very few Indians who are willing to unconditionally recognize the right of self-determination of others. It is a good thing that there were enough Britishers who were willing to recognize this right for Indians, otherwise India itself would not be free.

In reply to sac, #33 :

The timescale of my two person game of stock market was a few beats of the market ticker.

Regarding options, what I do know is that one finds the fair value of options by constructing a risk-free position in options and the underlying asset on which options are being traded, and positing the return on this should match the risk-free return. In essence, one posits zero-sum game between a holder of some cash and options and a holder of the asset to calculate the fair price of the options.

Anyway, if the stock market example confuses rather than clarifies the point, then discard it.

-arun gupta

umiarr,

speaking of courage umairr, is it possible for you to explain pakistan ceding kashmiri land to china?

also why does pakistan not admit its own citizens languishing in bangladesh`s slums?

i promised to you that everytime you bring up kashmir and human rights, i will ask you these questions.

let us see how much courage you have.

umiarr,

speaking of courage uamirr, is it possible for you to explain pakistan ceding kashmiri land to china?

also why does pakistan not admit its own citizens languishing in bangladesh`s slums?

i promised to you that everytime you bring up kashmir and human rights, i will ask you these questions.

let us see how much courage you have.

Pakistan Prognosis:

2003: Pakistan`s foreign exchange reserves fall below $1bn - enough for only a few weeks worth of imports. India`s foreign exchange reserves hit $70 bn. Gen. Musharraf extends his regime indefinitely in defiance of Supreme Court guidelines issued in 2000.

2004 - BJP govt. in India sensing electoral gridlock in forthcoming general elections, initiates a calculated, undeclared `limited war` in Kashmir by attacking Pakistan held positions to shore up support for elections, and to financially `bleed` Pakistan. Result is a military stalemate after 3 months of heavy fighting with no official declaration or cessation of hostilities. Threats of use of nuclear weapons are exchanged, but nuclear weapons not used. Heavy casualties on both sides, no significant territorial gains for either side. Cost of war - approximately $4 billion for each side - 3% of India`s annual budget, but 25% of Pakistan`s annual budget and nearly equal to its entire defense budget for the year. The war bankrupts Pakistani economy. No western help forthcoming for either side. China stays out of conflict.

2004-2005 - Inflation reaches 30% in Pakistan, and 15% in India. The drought enters its fourth year. Nearly 150 million people are impoverished in the sub-continent. Baluchistan is ravaged.

2005 - Islamic revolution in Pakistan lead by religious military officers supported by clerics. Deposes Gen. Musharraf`s regime. All pretensions to moderate Islamic rule cast aside. Imposition of Sharia to obfuscate issues and masses. Ruling establishment officially declares the US and India to be `Satans` and `enemies of Islam`. The US is accused of helping India in previous year`s conflict, and India accused for subjugating Kashmir. Relations with India and Iran hit a nadir. 1 million Paksitani refugees turned away from India`s border in Punjab, Rajasthan and Gujarat. Prominent Indian muslims denounce developments in Pakistan, while putting pressure on Union government to accept refugees. China concerned about revolution`s impact on Sinkiang, but maintains official relations with Pakistan. New regime denounces secularism and MA Jinnah. BJP govt. falls in India over accusations for having contributed to the quagmire in Pakistan. `Third Front` government led by reformed Congress and Communists in India takes charge.

2004 - 2009 - Pakistan and India continue meddling in each other`s internal affairs. Unexplained bombings continue in major cities in both countries.

2007: Rebellion in Baluchistan quelled. However, unlike in the 1970s, rebellion receives support from Iran and India.

2007 - Need contributions from Chowk readers…

Layman #37

I disagree with one point you make. Throw Indian secularism out of the window and patriotism as Indians, too. However, even if your daughter were badly illtreated at home, you don`t marry her into a more abusive and exploitative family, just for atonement.

Lashkar-e-Toiba, Hizbul-Mujahiddeen and Gen Pervez Musharraf have done and said nothing to deserve to be the arbitrars of anyones fate, much less of the beleagured Kashmiris. They(and the Pakistani people by association) are already exerting a lot of choice in which Kashmiris deserve to live and which to die.

The Pakistani state rewards political disaffection/alienation with death or dire punishment. The Indian state by contrast has more sensitivity to political disaffection and has on many occasions accomodated it.

Sadhana

Sameer, sorry for the intrusion. Your article is well written and your ideas neatly accomodate many realities. Hope to hear more clarification of your suggested solutions. Will love to hear and understand more about what the dynamics were during Zia`s time from your personal experience.

Just wanted to bring to your attention something corollary to `survival of the fittest` and its non-zero-sum/zero-sum nature. I once read a naturalist`s description of a pack of wolves and their behaviour. The naturalist observed that even when two male wolves fought each other bitterly for supremacy, at the decisive moment when one wolf decided to accept defeat, both the wolves behaviour was worth noting. However, physically close the two struggling wolves were, the gesture of the defeated wolf was to bare its throat(offering its most vulnerable spot to its enemy). The gesture of the victor(an impassioned wild animal, after all, never read any religious scripture) was to keep its angry stance but move its teeth away from the profferred throat. Then both would back away.

The point was that even those animals considered the most barbaric in the anthropomorphic storyline had some `evolved` codes to prevent extinction of species. Humans have forgotten those codes long ago, maybe due ot overpopulation. But being the great thinking creatures we are, we ought to know at least as much as those wolves.

Sadhana

Re: Umairr #35

I think most people in India do realise that people in J&K are `alienated` from the mainstream... Given a plebiscite situation, everyone knows what the likely outcome will be. But that is not the point. The question, as far as India is concerned, is what is the best outcome in India`s interests? And that, is only if J&K stays within the Indian Union.

Almost every other state in India has faced some degree of alienation or the other (Punjab, Assam, Mizos etc). The reason, in my opinion, is stupid political mistakes and inequality in distribution of political power and economic resources. Wherever this imbalance has been corrected and people find that they can prosper and flourish within the Indian Union, their sense of alienation has faded away. Unfortunately, the law-and-order situation in J&K has not been such that this can happen. A political resolution should go hand-in-hand with the reduction in violence by the militants (sponsored in no small way by your country). Only then will J&K be peaceful.

The question before India is not just what the people of J&K want but what is in the best interests of the nation as a whole. And India`s interests are served best only by J&K continuing to be part of India. Pakistan seems to have consistently underestimated the will and the ability of India to fight for its unity and integrity.

Sac (#33): Thanks for your comments. I always liked your precise style of expressing your opinions. I am surprised that Chowk editors did not approve of your article. Please resubmit it. I hope to see it published at Chowk.

Regards,

Sameer

shammi #31: There is an easier way than what you have suggested to figure out what the Kashmiris want; what they have accepted; what they have rejected.

Just hold a vote with the help of a neutral agency like Amnesty International or the UNO.

What`s the point of fighting any kind of war, cyber or conventional? For some reason India keeps claiming that the Kashmiris actually support India, and it is Pakistan which is causing all the problems. Yet India refuses to hold a vote. It would be in India`s interest to hold a vote and expose Pakistan.

If Indians reject holding a vote, then please do not claim that Kashmiris want to remain with India. And please do not blame Pakistan without first holding a vote. Either hold a vote and then blame Pakistan, or do not hold vote and stop blaming outside sources for the problems in Kashmir.

In my opinion, if everyone in India, including the Indian govt., and the Indian commentators on Chowk, were to speak their minds truthfully, they would all agree deep down inside that the Kashmiris do not want to be with India (whether they want to be with Pakistan or not is a debatable point, but they definitely do not want to be with India). I am surprised why no one in India has the courage to state that out in the open. Why put up such a facade, why be in such a state of denial, and why be in a perpetual state of war?

Secularity cannot be forced by killing people into submitting to secularity. That is exactly the opposite of secularism. Secularity has to be accepted by people at their own free will. Secularity means respecting others points of views; not killing them to accept your point of view.

A person who indireclty or directly supports agencies involved in the killing of innocents (supporting Indian govt. actions in Kashmir) is perhaps not as guilty as the person who is doing the actual killing; but the supporter has at least a small stain of the victim`s blood on his hand.

I hope some day people will develop a conscience and let the Kashmiris decide how the Kashmiris should live their lives.

re arun gupta,fuzair and sameer`s ruminations on the stock market as a zero-sum game or not:

Arun, even at an atomic level, a single transaction in the stock market is not a zero-sum phenomenon. First of all how will you judge the result of that transaction? Lets say for example one month after the transaction you shall look at the value of the commodity involved. At that point one of the parties may be ahead of the game. But the ``losing`` party may actually have invested the money he/she received from the original transaction and come out ahead of the ``winner``. Even if you were to think purely in cash terms and forget about the time-value of money or various options available to the investor, the ``loser`` may actually be the ``winner`` and vice versa. This requires some knowledge of option theory to explain which I will in case you insist.

BTW I do agree with your explanation of ``enjoyment-values`` for games of chance. If more people knew about them they`d rather play Blackjack than slots :)

re Saima #16:

I did submit something a month back. Obviously it did not meet Chowk`s exalted standards for publication.

later

-sac

Arshy: All my comments you are attributing to yourself were actually directed at Yasser (YLH). He is very fond of Z. A. Bhutto whereas I got burnt during his reign because I was then a teenager Farangi_Kush, not to mention the loss of 8 months of schooling during opposition movement against Bhutto. I could have gone in circles using Allama Iqbal, Ali Shariaati or Rumi, to support a ``true Islamic system`` but I chose to present my opinions honestly, the way I felt deep inside. It is the repeat of Zia`s policies, JI, JUP, JUI, SSP, TJP, madaris, jehadis, lashkars, Taliban, Shariaat Court, Shariaat Bill, Hudood Ordinance and like that I detest. Could you name a saner or truely Islamic political party? Actually after reading your latest post, we have more opinions in common than differences. I look forward to continue interacting with you on Chowk.

farangi_Kush: You are right about Non-Zero by Robert Wright. He used it to explain the evolution of human beings. The idea to apply this model to the historical data about Pakistan came after I read the book. But I knew about Game Theory much before this book came out.

It is normal to apply various models to available data. Generally speaking you do not create a model without any data to feed into it. If there was no alcohol drinking and no pork eating, there would be no reason to prohibit it.

temporal: Sorry sir, niether I have the book, nor have I read it. I just read the same piece what I posted. I will look for it in Jackson Heights, the desi area of NY.

I am not sure if Zaheer Babar is the same well-known leftist journalist of Imroze daily of 20 years ago or someone else. It sure sounds juicy material to read.

Paradise Lost, in the Name of God and Self-Determination

Kashmir: India and Pakistan twist truth as they pour guns, money into the disputed Himalayan region.

Los Angeles Times

By MANSOOR IJAZ

When approaching Srinagar, capital of this disputed Himalayan state, one has the unmistakable impression of coming to paradise on Earth. Buttressed by jagged snow-capped mountains that have been called the roof of the world, the Kashmir valley is a breathtaking mosaic of towering pines, glistening lakes and flowing streams.

On the ground, however, reality is quite different. The dispute over Kashmir always has boiled down to the fate of the people in its valley, controlled by India. I went there this month as an American citizen to ask ordinary Kashmiris why what had started 50 years ago as a principled fight for self-determination had turned into the violent war of religious extremists. What I found was disturbing, not only because the documented human rights violations are real, but also because of the overwhelming evidence of lies by both Pakistani and Indian authorities.

New Delhi, for example, would have the world believe that only a few thousand troops are defending against foreign aggression on their soil. Yet Indian security forces could be seen everywhere. The look and feel of a police state was unambiguous. One Kashmiri official finally admitted that the real figure for troops in the valley alone approached 150,000. And the valley represents only a fraction of the total area in dispute in Kashmir.

Interestingly, local police and security forces commanders admitted that their soldiers had been overzealous in expelling militants from local homes, violating civil liberties in the process--contrition that may be part of an organized campaign by New Delhi to lift the appearance of an oppressive environment of rights abuses. Permitting foreigners like me to visit after the abuses largely have stopped also may be part of the appeasement policy.

Yet perhaps the most compelling facet of India`s win-at-all-costs strategy in Kashmir is the evidence of the money being poured into the enclave to secure a reconciliation between local Kashmiris and the motherland. New construction and refurbishment of tourist hot spots can be seen everywhere. One look at the homes in which Kashmiri separatist leaders and others in the valley live, and the big business of war becomes humorously obvious. Separatists get funding for insurgency operations from Pakistan`s military intelligence apparatus. Then India matches the grants to bring them back to the Indian camp. It`s the politics of war finance at its worst.

Pakistan`s deceit was equally clear. Islamabad would have the world believe that it does not provide official military support for militant groups waging jihad, or holy war, and that the militants are indigenous Kashmiris battling for their own freedom. Both claims strain credulity. I saw several thousand weapons seized from insurgents in gun battles around the valley and along the Line of Control--the unofficial border between Pakistan-controlled and India-controlled Kashmir--everything from the latest AK-47 rifles to sophisticated hand grenades to rocket launchers bearing the embossed logos of Pakistan`s official munitions factories. The fingerprints of Pakistani army and intelligence support were unmistakable.

I reviewed identification cards taken from captured foreign moujahedeen warriors. These cards were designed to notify families back home in the event of combat death and to ensure war reparations would be properly paid--hardly procedures for local sons of war. Receipt books for money collected in the names of various Islamic charities to finance the purchase of war supplies further evidenced the principal complaint that Kashmiris repeatedly voiced to me: that their struggle to gain independence had turned into someone else`s war for the cause of pan-Arabism, pan-Islamism or something other than Kashmiri freedom.

Stuck in the middle of these two egocentric forces are the Kashmiris, perhaps the most docile people on Earth. Mentally, emotionally and physically ravaged by a war that neither side seems able to win, they appear on the verge of opting for peace with Hindu masters who offer economic revitalization and peaceful coexistence rather than pressing on with Muslim Pakistan, which offers little more than religious zealotry and violent accession.

One Kashmiri elder who ran a pharmacy on the outskirts of Srinagar put it most succinctly: ``When the moujahedeen first came, we welcomed them into our homes with open arms. Today, they come from far away and demand our food and shelter for freeing us. Yet they show us their guns and we do not feel free. When they leave, the security forces ransack our homes looking for them, and the violence starts all over again. This type of freedom we do not wish for our enemy.``

Without an end to the violence that dominates the character of today`s freedom fighters, Pakistan is in danger of losing whatever moral authority it once may have enjoyed in trying to liberate Kashmir. But India should be clear that Pakistan will never go quietly. New Delhi can do a big-bucks deal with native Kashmiris who are sick of war, but militants financed by deep-pocketed zealots in far-off lands may escalate the stakes to an unacceptable price for paradise on Earth.

- - -

Mansoor Ijaz, a Nuclear Physicist of Pakistani Descent, Is Chairman of an Investment Firm in New York

Food for thought:

Website to counter Pak cyber war on Kashmir

New Delhi, May 21: Taking the Pakistan-backed portals head on in their cyber war against India, a Delhi-based Kashmiri has launched a website to mobilise global public opinion against ISI-sponsored terrorism in Jammu and Kashmir.

The website, savekashmirmovement.org, is not only aimed at exposing Pakistan`s nefarious designs in the border state, but also in providing a platform to varied sections of the society to express their views on the vexed Kashmir problem.

According to M.A. Hussain alias Y.B. Home, the brain behind the project, who describes himself as a ``victim of terrorism``, the website would effectively counter the Pakistani propaganda on Kashmir through popular participation.

``Pakistan has launched a cyber war against India and we have been left far behind. Through this website we want to tell our Pakistani brethren that the people of Kashmir had rejected the two-nation theory way back in 1947,`` he said.

``Kashmir is the basis of secularism in India. The creation of Bangladesh and the Mohajir, Baluchi and Sindhi movements, besides the growing Shia-Sunni clashes in Pakistan have proven the fallacy of the two-nation theory,`` Hussain said.

“The website is an independent initiative of a concerned Kashmiri and an Indian citizen,`` Hussain said dismissing suggestions that it was backed by any government agency. ``Any government-sponsored website would be preaching. Ours is an open platform committed to promote people to people communication on Kashmir,`` he said.

To be formally launched early next month by a ``child victim of Pakistani terrorism in Kashmir``, the site has various sections such as “people`s platform”, “opinion leaders” and “profile of a terrorist”.

``While we are for the total unification and integration of Kashmir with the rest of the country and against any talks with pro-Pakistan elements including the Hurriyat Conference, the website would provide an open forum to all shades of opinion,`` Hussain said.

The website, he said, is part of the larger “save Kashmir movement” and hopes to create a “cyber movement” on Kashmir.

A unique feature of the website would be the “web monitor” which would reproduce excerpts from other Kashmir-related websites.

``As part of the save Kashmir movement, we will demand among other things restoration of democracy in Pakistan, a full stop on export of terrorism to India, demilitarisation of the Pakistani society and closure of madarsas which sponsor training camps inside Pakistan,`` Hussain said.

``Our objective is to defeat Pakistan-sponsored terrorism politically and morally,`` he said.

Jay (#26): Most of the conversion to Islam took place during 12oo-1700 AD whereas Muslims invasions started 200 years earlier. There is no denying about some conversions due to fear for life but majority of the coversions resulted form a complex combinations of several factors. The best description may be a momentum followed by a trend. The momentum and trend did benefit from the Islamic empires. The converts, in the begining were nominal Muslims with very little to differentiate them from the rest. However, with time, there were clear distinctions. Similarly Sikhism, despite all odds, created a momentum and trend of its own. Most Pakistannis are either not familiar or do not acknowledge of some Muslims conversion to Sikhism, much before the Sikh rule over norwestern India. Sikhism could not have threatened the lives of Muslims during Islamic empires, except during few uprisings. Why did then some Muslim chose to convert?

Jay, it is momentum followed by trend as it is happening recently in South Korea. I am sure you can not make a case for life threatening situations for Buddhists, Shamanists and Confucianists converting in large numbers to evangelical Christianity.

You are repudiating an imaginery claim of superiority of Islamic religion, which I did not make.

[In Punjabi, we call it, ``hor choopo ganney`` and in Urdu, in the words of Faiz A. Faiz,

woh baat saare fasaney maiN jis ka zikr na tha

woh baat unko buhut na-gawar guzri hay ]

This would be interesting.I intend to follow it closely from a safe distance.The quick-sands of intellectualism promise to provide a good show of the hapless few who are bold enough to venture close.

Sameer:Like the designer of a cross-word puzzle,you first find the solution,then formulate the clues,& eventually end up with a `game`(puzzle)--and then ask others to solve.Where would this puzzle be if a book by such name(Zero-sum ...?..by..?) had not appeared lately on the book-shelves around North America.

Is marriage a zero-sum game? or would you suggest keeping a cow is useless if one can buy milk from the store.Do these concepts have geographical or cultural relevance.Is a game zero-sum here and non zeo-sum elsewhere?Is becoming a shaheed zero-sum or becoming a ghazi zeo-sum.Can people who have firm faith & belief in ``Obscure`` concepts playing such games and are simply not aware of it.

Like the guy who always took a nap in the afternoons without ever realising that he was performing the grand act of ``Qualoola``----which in his mind was restricted only to the scholars of chaste urdu?

__________________________________________________

wassalam

Sameer #18:

Pls. Purolator that book after you`ve read it.

Questions:

1: How serious is that journalist/writer?
2: When and why did he write this book.
3: Does he mention any current crop?

To use a delicate word, this dichotomy has been common knowledge in certain circles. (I have heard wild stories about some of the current crop as well as some quite lower down the peg. If the stories can reach me thousands of miles away, imagine what the locals would know?)

Sometimes I wonder how a poor labourer or a clerk would react when he hears such juicy stories?

What takes for the blood pressure to shoot through the hut or jhuggi`s ceilings?

What takes, indeed!

One may rationlaise that the disenfranchised are too busy groveling for salt, daal and flour to indulge in any unproductive and vindictive thoughts or activites.

Is this apathy?

---I have a hope: some day the masses will say, ``bus, bau`ji (babuji), bus!`` or ``bus, shahji. bus!`` or ``bus, saab. bus!``
---I have a hope: some day the masses will spontaneously and almost simultaneously pour out into the streets.
---I have a hope: their vengeance spares property.
---I have a hope: the necessary blood spilled that day will put the fear of ----of?-----of Allah, if you will ----- of death, if you will --- in the psyches of the new rulers.
---I have a hope: their actions result in an immediade amelioration and long term improvement of their lives.

Enough for now. My supply of hope is as inexhaustible as that of despair. The fun part is the life long tight rope walk in their midst.

regards,

temporal

ZERO SUM RELIGION,

During the `desert storm` there was a CNN image, from a helicpter an american crew looking at a row of images and jokingly blowing them up, like a play station game. Except for the lack of image this article comes close to it. The heros of pakistan, the Gaznavis, invade india to loot, pillage and rape, the poor hindus to save their lives, convert to islam, this is transforming a zero sum game to a non-zero sum game. What is the `non-zero` element, it is the great religion, world in a single book, present past and the future rolled into one. Pakistan is the land where these non-zero some people are creating a new jihadic nation.

It would have been more fitting if the underlying cause of the zero-sum precoccupation of pakistanis is investigated, at least some conjunctures. Look at the religion, it is contained in a book, the word of the god, it cannot be interpreted, it has to be accepted in toto, one cannot leave out some aspects as not relevant at the present time. One has to accept the book and live by it or else you are a kafir, to be killed. This is zero sum, this is one kind of religion that creates a zero-sum mind.

Arshy: I know my short-comings in the area of writng in English. I am working on improving this deficiency. Fortunately, it has not hurt me in my professional carrier and unfortunately there was no incentive for language improvement in industrial R & D environment, overwhelmingly Indians, Chineese and other asians. Anyway thanks for bringing it up.

The reason I chose to submit it as an article has to do with my extreme liberal points of view, generally not very popular with Pakistanis. Most of the views expressed fall with in a narrow range near the center with everyone carefully articulating their opinions when it comes to the role of religion in Pakistani politics. It was never my intention to seek approval of a tiny minority viewpoint, which are not liked even by my orthodox parents.

Arun Gupta: Thanks for sharing your views. I would be siding with Fuzair here about stock market. The thrift and pension plans of almost all the employees are tied to the stock market through low risk mutual funds. In addition to the possibility of market going up, a large number of transactions reduce the probability of major losses. A single transaction may be a win-lose situation, only when a seller is ready to take a loss. What may look as a bargain price for a buyer may also be a gain for the seller who may heve bought it even cheaper.

YLH: My criticism is about the way Islam is being played out in Pakistani politics. Islam in Pkaistan is no danger under any circumstances. I know of only one disabled person converting from Islam to Christianity in Lahore and charged under the blasphemy law. Islamic politics is retrogressive and contrary to the interests of Pakistan. Case in point: Afghanistan. We would not be in the mess if it was not for the Islamic policies of Zia and in the recent days, strong arm-twisting by the religious right. There is no let up in their demands. Just read the editorial and several articles in the latest TFT edition. The speed in which General PM is acquiscing to their demands makes me wonder if we will be seeing a bearded PM in few months.

Without going into detail, I have already sacrificed enough in my youth during Z. A. Bhutto era for Islamic political causes and have no intention now to waste a single drop of my blood or sweat for it. You are much younger than me and possibly afford couple of years for Islamic services for Taliban, Chechniya or lashkars.

It is Islamic politics that the whole nation goes on strike because one mullah is murdered in Karachi, without considering the cummulative loss of millions of work hours. The whole system is rotten at the top and dormant at the bottom. It needs to cut off the top and shake the bottom to get thing moving again. Revolution!!!

Re: ylh #19

Yasser is absolutely correct when he says that Islam is compatible with democracy. Just look at Iran--just about the most democratic Islamic country going. Actually, anything is compatible with democracy--apartheid, concentration camps, what not.

Islam is, however, not compatible with liberal democracy, and netither are the other things that I have mentioned. That is why the Greeks (or at least Aristotle), the coiner of the term, considered democracy to be really nothing more than mob rule. It is the adherence to liberal constitutional principles that makes democracy superior to all other forms of government.

Regards.

In reply to Fuzair #17, who believes that since both parties from a market transaction gain from it because the transaction was voluntary (if they did not gain from it, they would not enter the transaction ).

Well, people bet on things all the time, in card games and on the outcomes of cricket games, and the gain of one player is the loss of the other player. People enter these zero-sum games voluntarily. The stock market is simply a sophisticated, socially acceptable, and economically useful means of placing bets. That people do it voluntarily does not make each transaction non-zero-sum.

In the case of the stock market, if I am a seller, I always have the choice of selling now or later, and I am calculating that selling now will make me more money than selling later. Likewise the buyer is making a bet the other way. If I am wrong then what the buyer wins is what I have lost, i.e.,

zero-sum.

People gain something from these zero-sum games, (in the case of gambling, some degree of enjoyment) and so they are willing to do this. Which comes to the point of what I wrote. For example, the existence of the stock market is an overall good, even though each individual transaction in it is zero-sum.

-arun gupta

In reply to Fuzair #17, who believes that since both parties from a market transaction gain from it because the transaction was voluntary (if they did not gain from it, they would not enter the transaction ).

Well, people bet on things all the time, in card games and on the outcomes of cricket games, and the gain of one player is the loss of the other player. People enter these zero-sum games voluntarily. The stock market is simply a sophisticated, socially acceptable, and economically useful means of placing bets. That people do it voluntarily does not make each transaction non-zero-sum.

In the case of the stock market, if I am a seller, I always have the choice of selling now or later, and I am calculating that selling now will make me more money than selling later. Likewise the buyer is making a bet the other way. If I am wrong then what the buyer wins is what I have lost, i.e.,

zero-sum.

People gain something from these zero-sum games, (in the case of gambling, some degree of enjoyment) and so they are willing to do this. Which comes to the point of what I wrote. For example, the existence of the stock market is an overall good, even though each individual transaction in it is zero-sum.

-arun gupta

I liked your presentation of the two theories and the evidence you coerrelated to describe how it effects Pakistan.

Things you could have done to drastically improve this article:

1. Proof-read/and revised

avoid grammatical errors

2. Avoid using your perspective unless you can support it with actual evidence

3. do not make assumptions about what can occur if this or that step was taken

only true if previously tested under the same or similar circumstances

4. make practical statements or beliefs about how the system should be

``At least 60% of the education budget should be ear-marked for women education until they achieve parity in lliteracy level`` -- Come On : your being unrealistic and bias; thats like saying i do to you what you have done to me in the past. Maybe its time to move on from one-sided views : maybe as you simply state ``As a nation and pakistanis, we must always try to find solutions in a non-zero sum ways, and intelligently implement revival plans with the maximum probability of win-win situation.)

5. put yourself in the shoes of people you say have always been in the zero-sum style, and explain why their side was negative.

{it is easy to associate what we hear on the news and what we can assume about the diverse patterns of events, however we are always miscalculating the severity of an event unless we actually are part of the event)

Final Thought:

I didnt really like your article at all. poor grammar, and very unrealistic thoughts accompany this article. Yes Pakistan will be better off without fundamentalists, but your kind of extreme thoughts are also very impractical.

To Asfand ...

I see your objections to the 1973 constitution as invalid .... it is by no means a copy of the British constitution .....

How does the 1973 constitution go against the book ... is the question I will like to ask you ....

-Yasser Hamdani

I dont understand ... I dont understand at all... why we have to make such a distinction ... why we can either be Muslim or be Democratic ... why cant Pakistan be both ....

Pan Islamism comes in a variety of forms ... In 1974 the Lahore Islamic Summit conference was a milestone in Islamic Unity .. May Allah bless Zulfikar Ali Bhutto shaheed`s soul .....

also I will ask you all to read his ``Islamic Heritage speech`` delivered at UC Berkeley as an undergraduate .....and ZAB`s speech at the OIC 1974 .........

Let me make something clear to everyone ... especially the neighbours from next door who love to make us aware of their comments ........ eventhough it doesnt have anything to do with them .....

PAKISTANI = MUSLIM + DESI

PAKISTAN = ISLAM + SOUTH ASIAN HOMELAND

therefore it is not a conflict ....

`` It has been said that Islam is the middle way ...and we the Pakistanis are the middle most people of the Middle way`` (ZAB 1974 OIC Lahore)

I dont know what the fuss is about!!!!!!!

-Yasser Hamdani

Re: Macgupta #14

Market (stock or otherwise) transactions are not a zero-sum but a positive-sum game. Both parties to a market transaction gain from it, otherwise they would not do so. If I force you (e.g., hold a gun to your head) to sell to me at my price, then it might be a zero-sum game. However, market transactions freely entered into are the exemplar of positive-sum games.

Or are you one of those socialist chaps who believe that all markets are inherently evil? ;-)

Regards.

From Midweek section of e.Nation daily.

A win-win situation, for elite only.

Parliament se bazaar...

Iftikhar Ahmed

It`s a thriller. It`s a shocker. The book is in circulation. Everyone who can read Urdu wants to read it. Those who have read it are eager to pass it on to others. Three editions of this book have been published within three months, and the demand keeps rising. No wonder, this book may win the bestseller award of 2000, nationally if not internationally. Zaheer Ahmed Baber, the writer and a dauntless journalist, has unmasked in this book the lives of our politicians; their passion for drinking, womanising and sex orgies.

The book tells us what a jungle our country is, where the might of money and power sees no ends and no norms. It gives us the insight how our politicians have masqueraded themselves behind the mask of sincerity, serenity, and philanthropy. It reveals how they beguile the naïve populace with their false promises, lead them to personality cult and deceive them behind the scene with their disgusting acts. The title describes the story of our public representatives who enjoy beauty and sex more than anything else. They feel no qualms going from the sacred floor of parliament to `Bazaar Hussan` - a euphemism used for the place where beauties are sold. Bazaar Hussan is also known as `Red Light Area` in the main cities` where a man of honor feels ashamed to go. Some beauties who used to live in these areas are now moved out in their expensive bungalows, thanks to our politicians who patronise them. In return, the beauties provide them the pleasure they seek.

From the early days of Pakistan to the recent times, our rulers have been enjoying their orgies, writes Zaheer. Before her marriage with President Sikander Mirza, Naheed, the beautiful wife of an official, met the President in a party. Seeing the President very much interested in her she invited him to her apartment when her husband was out of the town. The President spent the whole night with her. Next morning she made an omelet for him. The pleased President gave her a cheque worth Rs 500, 000 (now worth more than 5 millions rupees) for the service he received. Later, he often bragged to his friends of eating the most expensive omelet in the world. A Lebanese beauty infatuated Governor General Ghulam Mohammad, while President Ayub Khan enjoyed having fun with a young white beauty Kristine Keller. President Yahya Khan, like Rangeela Shah, loved having fair sex parties. From General Rani) to the Melody Queen, he was fond of buxom beauties. Andaleeb, currently a model and film star is known to be the daughter of Gen. Yahya Khan who had an affair with her mother Mrs. Agha.

Zaheer boldly discloses how Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto acted like the Prince Charming. He loved the film star beauties: Madhu Bala, Nargis and Surraiya. He`d regale them, writes Zaheer, in the most expensive hotels of India before partition. In Karachi, even as Foreign Minister, he would sneak out from his Clifton residence to see his inamorata, Hassina Sheikh, who lived close by in an apartment. While disclosing the sex stories of the Daughter of the East, Zaheer shocks the reader with the love tales of Mian Nawaz Sharif who once gave his heart to Tahira Syed and later enjoyed being with Dilshad Begum in the cool of Bhoorbhan. Hussain Nawaz and Hamza Sharif used to have unbridled fun at one of the local hotels in Lahore, with TV and film stars. No body dared to check on them.

The Lal Haveli of Sheikh Rashid has been the hub of drinking and dancing where the `Farzand-e-Pakistan` would frequently invite the film stars including Reema, and have great fun with them. That`s why Reema was nominated most of the time for the film award while he was the minister of cultural affairs. Ghulam Mustafa Khar, once known as `The Lion of Punjab`, in the presence of his wife Tehmina, enjoyed having illicit relations with her wife`s sister Adeela. Hafeez Pirzada, Bhutto`s Law Minister, had a long record of fun with Barbara Sharif. And about the Ghairatmand Musalman Imran Khan, Zaheer discloses his love affairs with Sharon Silver, Emma Sergeant, Lucy, Sita White, Rekha and Ashairya Rai.

These are our public representatives who take oath on the constitution to serve the people. The constitution article (62) calls for men of character to serve the nation. In Western countries, where sex is free and having relation with opposite sex is not looked down upon, the sex scandals of public leaders are never tolerated. Even the most powerful President of the world, President Clinton, found his presidency shaking when Monica scandal came to light. However, our politicians go scot-free. They are never accounted for going against the constitutional clause 62.

A Minister may rape a girl who comes to his office for a job and the girl is coerced to shut her mouth. She can`t go to any one to complain. There is no court, there is no law agency, and there is no man in power who will help the unfortunate soul in our country. The Minister still dashes around without being challenged, without being punished. Once again when the democracy is restored he`d return to power. Once again he`d rape the needy girls and have their mouth shut. This will perhaps continue, unless our people recognise these wolves, and discard them forever.