Sadia Afroze Ali

Oops!

The words ``Can we try, people responsible for this incident, in public forums (courts) like this one without making scapegoats out of some and making rest sacrificial lambs?

Can we slaughter the most sacred cows with our knives of objectivity?

Gentlemen!

We are the generation who was denied the right to think freely and speak freely. We were denied the right to know. The same people are denying the same rights to our successor generations. Lets tell them unequivocally and unanimously that they cannot play those games with us anymore. But before telling them that, lets ask this question from ourselves- Internet and speaker forums have freed our tongues but has it freed our minds?`` were not mine. I was cutting and pasting in trying to respond and forgot to re-check my post.

Please flame the original author for those words ;-)

Or, the original author could consider it a flame directed at him and choose to respond as he pleases ;-)

Gymnophist

``We are the generation who was denied the right to think freely and speak freely. We were denied the right to know. The same people are denying the same rights to our successor generations. Lets tell them unequivocally and unanimously that they cannot play those games with us anymore. But before telling them that, lets ask this question from ourselves- Internet and speaker forums have freed our tongues but has it freed our minds?``

Very idealistic ....

I have just one thing to say ``Physician heal thyself`` and this is from a 19 year old, your successor generation.

Gymnophist

``We are the generation who was denied the right to think freely and speak freely. We were denied the right to know. The same people are denying the same rights to our successor generations. Lets tell them unequivocally and unanimously that they cannot play those games with us anymore. But before telling them that, lets ask this question from ourselves- Internet and speaker forums have freed our tongues but has it freed our minds?``

Very idealistic ....

I have just one thing to say ``Physician heal thyself`` and this is from a 19 year old, your successor generation.

Gymnophist ....

Let us be fair to everyone ....Operation Gibralter continues till this day ... can you deny that? ANy self respecting Pakistani worth his salt will tell you that it a ``Bellum Justum`` ... what do you suggest we dont do anything about Kashmir ?????

Like Bhutto said ... we have fought a war for a 1000 years in the subcontinent and we will fight one for a 1000 years if necessary for our war is not of oppression and avarice but against it .....

if the freedom struggle for Bangladesh was right then you cant deny that the freedom struggle of Kashmir is also right ... your stubbourness baffles me .... Was it wrong of Bhutto to urge on the operation Gibralter ... if it was so then every freedom struggle in the world is wrong ... every liberation effort is wrong ....

and then you claim that we lost the war ???? not only did we stem the massive invasion on the Punjab front but ours was clearly the victory on ground and in the air .... in the air battle we clearly emerged as the victors ... even the Indians accept that ... however we did lose the war because ... a weak hearted cowardly Field Marshall was in charge ... a weak hearted cowardly Field Marshall who till this day remains a ``kala dhubba`` on the record of our valiant forces .... he went to Tashkent and made peace there ....clearly one can see why Bhutto and the establishment fell apart after that ........

Gymnophist you seem to have something personal against the man ... I wonder what ........

to accuse Bhutto of setting up the 1965 war to gain power is utterly ridiculous ... interesting why still late 1965 Bhutto was urging Ayub to go to war again ... 1965 could have been a glorious chapter in our history for the victory belongs to the people of Pakistan and their valiant forces ... defeat belongs to Ayub Khan alone ... for his cowardly act in Tashkent !!!!!!!!!

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Jinnah Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

Gymnophist ....

Let us be fair to everyone ....Operation Gibralter continues till this day ... can you deny that? ANy self respecting Pakistani worth his salt will tell you that it a ``Bellum Justum`` ... what do you suggest we dont do anything about Kashmir ?????

Like Bhutto said ... we have fought a war for a 1000 years in the subcontinent and we will fight one for a 1000 years if necessary for our war is not of oppression and avarice but against it .....

if the freedom struggle for Bangladesh was right then you cant deny that the freedom struggle of Kashmir is also right ... your stubbourness baffles me .... Was it wrong of Bhutto to urge on the operation Gibralter ... if it was so then every freedom struggle in the world is wrong ... every liberation effort is wrong ....

and then you claim that we lost the war ???? not only did we stem the massive invasion on the Punjab front but ours was clearly the victory on ground and in the air .... in the air battle we clearly emerged as the victors ... even the Indians accept that ... however we did lose the war because ... a weak hearted cowardly Field Marshall was in charge ... a weak hearted cowardly Field Marshall who till this day remains a ``kala dhubba`` on the record of our valiant forces .... he went to Tashkent and made peace there ....clearly one can see why Bhutto and the establishment fell apart after that ........

Gymnophist you seem to have something personal against the man ... I wonder what ........

to accuse Bhutto of setting up the 1965 war to gain power is utterly ridiculous ... interesting why still late 1965 Bhutto was urging Ayub to go to war again ... 1965 could have been a glorious chapter in our history for the victory belongs to the people of Pakistan and their valiant forces ... defeat belongs to Ayub Khan alone ... for his cowardly act in Tashkent !!!!!!!!!

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Jinnah Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

re the gentleman who wrote

``Sometimes I feel that let bygones be bygones, but people like Sigalph light the fire again.``

I am sorry that I am not a firefighter. But never have I been disrespectful to anybody`s beliefs and values. If a sublimely held love for land and people is lighting fires, then I am pretty guilty. I have difficulty understanding why some Indians (and I say Indians rather than Benaglis) hold me personally responsible for the ill-deeds of the Pakistan Army in 1971 while others find me a target for accusations involving Bengali atrocities towards non-Bengalis. Is it because some Pakistanis and Indians have never given up on being the two mini superpowers in their dreams? I wasn`t around in 1971 to create any carnage; my family roots are to be found not only in Dhaka today, but in Karachi, Delhi, and, yes, Murshidabad. What makes some of you think that I am ill-disposed towards Indians or Pakistanis? A love for Bengali doesn`t mean that.

On a separate note, Ras Sahib, your reflections on Bengal always make me wonder. Few Bengalis themselves can match the love, passion, and feeling you have for the land. I cannot myself ever so vividly describe the beauty of the mand and people as so you so effortlessly. What else can I say? I am without words when I read yours!

Ref Urstruly #: 47

You asked ``Have we asked Bengalis what made them think that West Pakistanis were not in the same boat with them?``

Simple. You guys were on dry land while the East Bengalis were clutching at anything that floated by after the hurricane of 1970. That proved to the Easterners that the West Pakistanis wouldn`t share anything with them.

YLH, can you justify Bhutto`s statement that he would break the legs of the MNAs who dared to attend the opening session of the National Assembly?

About Bhutto stabbing Ayub Khan in the back over the 1965 war, it is Bhutto who urged Operation Gibraltar on a skeptical Ayub Khan and later used the failure of the war in his populist campaign during the elections.

Can we ask the great crusaders and protectors of language why the phrase ``remember East Pakistan`` not a slang so far, in Urdu,, as ``remember Alamo`` is an American slang.

Can we try, people responsible for this incident, in public forums (courts) like this one without making scapegoats out of some and making rest sacrificial lambs?

Can we slaughter the most sacred cows with our knives of objectivity?

Gentlemen!

We are the generation who was denied the right to think freely and speak freely. We were denied the right to know. The same people are denying the same rights to our successor generations. Lets tell them unequivocally and unanimously that they cannot play those games with us anymore. But before telling them that, lets ask this question from ourselves- Internet and speaker forums have freed our tongues but has it freed our minds?

In response to Urstruly (Reply # 47)

Dear Urstruly:

Your statement: ``It will be really be myopic of someone to think that my bone of contention with Bengalis is that since they committed the act of genocide first so they should apologize first.``

Comment: I will reiterate my position where I make a distinction between the people and the state apparatus (and the ruling elite). If the state of Pakistan was engaged in (or even indifferent to) a genocide (which I tend to believe that it was), then the apology must come from the state as the job of a state is to protect the fundamental rights of its citizens. I agree with Ferozk that we should look at our transgressions, and let others to realize their own guilt/foul play.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

RE: FerozK # 44 and Temporal # 29

Dear FerozK and Temporal,

I wish the matter were as simple as a molested woman fighting back. On the contrary we are talking about genocide and breaking of a union that was holier only next to God. I once again apologize for not elaborating my point. It will be really be myopic of someone to think that my bone of contention with Bengalis is that since they committed the act of genocide first so they should apologize first.

Aristotle once said that if you want to understand the deeds try to understand the motives first. Allow me to rephrase another clichéd saying that only lesson that history teaches us is that no one learns from it.. One who doesn’t learn from history is doomed to repeat it.

May I ask you gentlemen (or ladies?) how the current situation in Karachi, in particular, and in Sindh in general, any different from the situation in East Pakistan.

May I ask how the acts of genocide in Karachi and Hyderabad, in late 80`s and early `90s, were any different from EP.

May I ask what have we done to resolve language issues after learning lessons from the E.P.

May I ask how the present day bureaucracy and establishment any different from that of united Pakistan?

Have we ever tried to explore what parts of Bengali prejudices were real, what was imaginary and what was influenced by propaganda?

Have we tried to explore if the highways of Islamabad really smelled like jute and blood of Bengalis.

Have we asked Bengalis what did an ordinary West Pakistani do to deserve a punishment like that and what drove them to do that? Was their motivation based on prejudice or a real threat?

Have we asked Bengalis what made them think that West Pakistanis were not in the same boat with them?

Can we ask the great crusaders and protectors of language why the phrase ``remember East Pakistan`` not a slang so far, in Urdu,, as ``remember Alamo`` is an American slang.

Can we try, people responsible for this incident, in public forums (courts) like this one without making scapegoats out of some and making rest sacrificial lambs?

Can we slaughter the most sacred cows with our knives of objectivity?

Gentlemen!

We are the generation who was denied the right to think freely and speak freely. We were denied the right to know. The same people are denying the same rights to our successor generations. Lets tell them unequivocally and unanimously that they cannot play those games with us anymore. But before telling them that, lets ask this question from ourselves- Internet and speaker forums have freed our tongues but has it freed our minds?

cheraym #43:

You say, “But for the hindus, I am not sure who should apologize, since after a few days of initial indiscriminate carnage, it were the Hindus who took the most beating.” Loss of life is loss of life. Personally, I would own up till the fall/liberation of Dacca. But that is no consolation for the loss of dear ones!

When you say, “How I wish there was no religion in this world....” you are expressing your ire and disgust at what we see around ---- the murders, mayhem, destruction caused in the name of some distant deity or the other.

I am not sure doing away with religion is a panacea.

Perhaps if we all exercise moderation in our set of beliefs this world could be a better place.
To quote Mahajirzadeh, “Pehlay insaan, phir Muslaman.”

love

t

Yasser,

I don`t deny the fact that Bhutto did make a significant contribution to Pakistan. But his actions regarding East Pakistan cannot be forgiven. What makes a good leader??? Can his `wrong` actions be forgiven ?? Bhutto played a major part in the East Pkaistan trgaedy, a tragedy which could have been avoided. At the end of the day, it all comes down to the `kursi`. This has been the tragedy with pakistan. No leader has been willing to compromise his/her `power chair`, even if it is for the good of Pakistan.

Re: Urstrully # 25

Thanks for stressing the point and yes, on that score I am in complete agreement with you. However, where I differ from you is on the quid pro quo concerning the act of reconciliation. My orginal agrument still remains valid, because we need to apologise for our conduct irrespective of how the Bangladeshis reciprocate towards our apology.

To me it does not matter, nor does it hold any interest for me whether the Bangladeshis apologise or not, because we, Pakistanis, should be more concerned about our own conduct than what others might or might not do! To borrow a phrase from Spike Lee, ``do the right thing``. Pakistan should make an unconditional apology to the people of Bangladesh and let them worry about their course of action in regards to our apology.

It is time we stopped making excuses and owned up to our sorid past.

Ciao!

temporal:

Sorry for this late reaction, away in different boards. I guess, if I consider myself still a part of that disturbing time (not as an Indian, but as an east Pakistani), accept my heart felt thanks for your apology. But for the hindus, I am not sure who should apologize, since after a few days of initial indiscriminate carnage, it were the Hindus who took the most beating. My maternal grandparents house along with other hindus in Mymensingh`s Bajitpur area were burnt down without any problem to the muslim neighbours. How did the Pak army know which one to fire?

Sometimes I feel that let bygones be bygones, but people like Sigalph light the fire again. It is the disguise, when it comes of, hurts you the most! I think I need to resolve this in order to have some peace in my mind. And that is why I wrote this in Chowk.

How I wish there was no religion in this world. Solitude, I agree with 100 percent, let open the fountain of love. That is why India should stay integrated, no more bloody partition based on religion. It does not help, another 50 years, some other group wants to secede.

Regards

Cheraym

On Chowk, I see many posts that fail to provide a good sense of Pakistani history. For a reasonable introduction to the causes for the separation of East Pakistan, please refer to Khalid Bin Sayeed`s Politics in Pakistan (Chapter 4). Professor Sayeed is a well respected Pakistani political scientist/historian who currently resides in Canada.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Umair .... Bhutto in my eyes was our greatest leader after Jinnah .... yet I dont condone the actions of the Pakistan Army ...

Gymnophist ... when you say Bhutto back stabbed Ayub in the 1965 war ... what do you mean because you are obviously speaking out of your ignorance of History ... out of the Politicians he was the only hero of that war .....doesnt matter if some of you out of certain private griefs or maybe pure stubbourness deny Bhutto his greatness ... he lives in the heart of millions ... he is our true martyr ... and our only true hero ... a worthy Caesar ... remember history considers slaying of Caesar a mistake no matter how noble Brutus might have been ... a Cassius always emerges more powerful, stronger ....

WHo is our Marc Antony... who is our Augustus? ...

Pakistanis are waiting and hoping !

-Pakistan Zindabad

-Quaid e Azam Jinnah Zindabad

-Jiye Bhutto

-Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

umairr,

heh heh...! didn`t expect you would give me an opportunity so soon! as they say - tum sudharogay nahin!!

i am sure gymno is going to respond to you in his own fashion, but let me say this -

I also have yet to see an article like this one apologizing for pakistan`s deplorable actions against the Kashmiris in the form of sending unwelcomed, illiterate, murderous, jihadis (aka `religious volunteers` in umairrspeak) to create mayhem in indian kashmir - from anyone from pakistan. Hopefully we will see one soon (perhaps you could initiate one, though that would be the day when the sun would rise in the west).