Temporal May 21, 2000
#7 Posted by ylh on May 22, 2000 7:07:51 pm
Pakistan and Bangladesh will always be brothers!
The cries of Bhutto-Mujeeb Bhai Bhai in Lahore in 1974 at the Islamic Summit conference is a proof of a supernationality, a common parentage, an emotional Bond that exists between our two nations ... the Bond of Islam! Everybody made Mistakes... some Pakistanis make a scapegoat out ofindividuals for causing the break up ... ridiculous ... whereas somebody said on this forum that we are not responsible ... we forget the Ayub Era and its contribution to Pakistan`s destruction...we forget all else ... WE COLLECTIVELY NEED TO SAY SORRY !!!!!!!Some people never admit their mistakes .... Others rectify them..... I think Zulfikar Ali Bhutto rectified his ... by accepting the sovereignty of Bangladesh in 1974 and by bringing BD and Pakistan closer ... Now it is our turn .... I can also say that I was not involved nor was anyone from my family in 1971 .... I was born 9 years after !!!!!BUT I AM SORRY ... I am sorry that we did what we did ....
-Bangladesh Zindabad
-Pakistan Zindabad
-Quaid e Azam Jinnah Zindabad
-Jiye Bhutto
The cries of Bhutto-Mujeeb Bhai Bhai in Lahore in 1974 at the Islamic Summit conference is a proof of a supernationality, a common parentage, an emotional Bond that exists between our two nations ... the Bond of Islam! Everybody made Mistakes... some Pakistanis make a scapegoat out ofindividuals for causing the break up ... ridiculous ... whereas somebody said on this forum that we are not responsible ... we forget the Ayub Era and its contribution to Pakistan`s destruction...we forget all else ... WE COLLECTIVELY NEED TO SAY SORRY !!!!!!!Some people never admit their mistakes .... Others rectify them..... I think Zulfikar Ali Bhutto rectified his ... by accepting the sovereignty of Bangladesh in 1974 and by bringing BD and Pakistan closer ... Now it is our turn .... I can also say that I was not involved nor was anyone from my family in 1971 .... I was born 9 years after !!!!!BUT I AM SORRY ... I am sorry that we did what we did ....
-Bangladesh Zindabad
-Pakistan Zindabad
-Quaid e Azam Jinnah Zindabad
-Jiye Bhutto
#6 Posted by bahmad on May 22, 2000 7:07:51 pm
Dear Temporal:
My understanding of the fall of East Pakistan is somewhat similar to that of Urstruly. I am, in particular, critical of the role of the power elite and the state apparatus in dealing with the situation in East Pakistan. As citizens, we should not take responsibility of the actions of a state that is essentially unrepresentative of its people. The source of state power needs to be the people first and the people last.
The state of Pakistan needs to apologize to the people of Pakistan for the atrocities committed in all parts of Pakistan, including the erstwhile East Pakistan. This step would be a first major step toward the establishment of the sovereignty of the people of Pakistan.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
My understanding of the fall of East Pakistan is somewhat similar to that of Urstruly. I am, in particular, critical of the role of the power elite and the state apparatus in dealing with the situation in East Pakistan. As citizens, we should not take responsibility of the actions of a state that is essentially unrepresentative of its people. The source of state power needs to be the people first and the people last.
The state of Pakistan needs to apologize to the people of Pakistan for the atrocities committed in all parts of Pakistan, including the erstwhile East Pakistan. This step would be a first major step toward the establishment of the sovereignty of the people of Pakistan.
Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad
#5 Posted by Urstruly on May 22, 2000 11:48:12 am
Temporal!
The next couplet to one that you quoted in your article is:
“Kab nazar main aayay gi bay-dagh sabzay ki Bahar
Khoon kay dhabbay dhulain gay kitnee barsaaton kay baad”
Faiz Ahmad Faiz presented it in 1972 when he visited Dhaka along with Z. A. Bhutto. Later when he re-read this poem at a moshaira in London, Mr. Shahabbudin, Chief justice of Bangladesh, (who later became president when Gen. Irshad was forced to step down) commented, “Khoon kay dhabbay barsaaton say nahin dhulaa kartay”.
Whatever happened to Bengalis from 1947 to 1971 is usually touted as a crime committed by West Pakistani people. The accusers intentionally and conveniently forget that during the 12 years out of 23 years of history till 1971, Pakistan was governed by Martial Law. For the rest of the years during semi-selected or semi-elected governments of the fifties, the people of West Pakistan were as voiceless as their brothers in the East.
Lets not forget that Urdu was announced as a national language with mutual consent in 1948. The nationalist element did oppose the decision but all major mainstream political factions applauded. (We are not going to discuss in this post whether this decision was right or wrong). The nationalists, however, exploited this issue later when Urdu-speaking Biharis entered Bangladesh as refugees and Bengalis had to share their already meager resources with them.
Usually, it is also touted that it was only Pakistan Army that committed horrendous crimes against Bengalis. Again the accusers conveniently forget that the Rwanda style ethnic cleansing of West Pakistanis (WP) and non-Bengalis started weeks before the army action. Between March 1, when Awami League decided to go beyond point of no return, and March 26, when army action started, well over 100,000 WPs, Biharis, and pro-Pakistan Bengalis were killed by Muktee Bahni, Awami League, mutineers of East Bengal Regiment and East Pakistan Rifles. During this period the horrible crimes committed against non-Bengalis are a blot on the pages of history of humanity.
Lets take some examples from the news in international press.
“15,000 non-Bengalis were killed in Bogra, District Santahar in three days. Women were forced to march naked on the roads and mothers were forced to drink blood of their own babies.”
“Over 10,000 non-Bengalis were killed in Chatagong. Well over 250 women and children were killed with bayonets.”
“In Siraj Ganj near Pabna, nearly 350 non-Bengali women and children were locked in a hall and were incinerated alive.”
“In the region of Sankoo Para near Maymon Singh a non Bengali residential colony of 2000 families, was razed to ground. Men were taken out and shot whereas women were raped and forced to dig their own graves, later killed”.
(Times London, 16 April, 1971)
“When East Pakistan Rifles (EPR) committed mutiny, their first reaction was to kill all non-Bengali colleagues. Among 15,000 personnel strong EPR, 40% were non-Bengalis, mostly officers. EPR filled a train with the corpses of their colleagues and their families and buried them near an Indian border town of Hari Das Pur”
(Far Eastern Economic Review, Hong Kong, 24 April 1971, By T.S. George)
“It is evident from the eye-witness accounts that when Bengalis felt that Awaami League will come in power, they killed Biharis at several places and looted their property”.
(New York Times, 10 May, 1972, Malcolm W. Brown)
“There is a strong evidence present, which suggests that mutineers attacked non Bengalis, chopped them and set their property on fire. According to eye-witness accounts about 1500 widows and children were seen taking refuge in a mosque in Maymon Singh after their men were killed by Bengalis.”
(Ceylon Daily News, Colombo, 15 May ’71, Marcos Quates)
“The news reporters who visited this important port (Chetagong) yesterday reported that firing and shelling have caused heavy damage. Mutineers massacred the city dwellers. News reporters saw a mass grave, in a jute mill owned by prominent Isfehani family, that contained 152 corpses of non-Bengali women and children who were shot in the club of that mill. The locals also showed them a burnt down building where Bengalis incinerated 350 Pathaans alive”
(Washington Post, May 22, 1971, Associated Press News)
Although the datelines suggest otherwise, the above quoted events happened before the army action started on March 26. A certain amount of text was edited in order to keep the posting as concise as possible. These events should not come as a surprise to people who understand the mechanics of gorilla warfare, especially, when it is fought on the basis of ethnic ideology. The point-of-no-return tactic is used when all doors of reconciliation are deliberately closed. That was actually a trap set up by the masterminds sitting on the Indian side of the border for Pakistan Army. When reinforcements were sent by mid March and one of the high-ranking Pakistani officer was briefed about the state of affairs, he was dumbfounded with the extent and nature of atrocities, the words he uttered were ``No mercy for the savages``. Muktee Bahni learned their lessons well from their Indian masters and trainers.
All the said acts, in no way validate, whatever happened during army action. A crime against humanity is still a crime. Whatever happened there is not just Pakistan Army’s responsibility. The point is that the horrendous crimes were committed on both sides.
So Temporal!
If you posted this article as an effort to reconcile with Bengalis you have failed miserably. Any peace without justice is short lived. Next time if you decide to apologize on behalf of whole nation, ask first. West Pakistanis are in no way responsible for the actions committed by despots. An average West Pakistani had no idea what was going on in East Pakistan until December 1971. They were in no position to validate or support the actions of despots. Are Bengalis willing to accept their responsibility for their actions committed before December 16 and for what they did to the non-Bengali speaking population immediately after? I guess we need a lot more “Barsaatain” to wash this blood.
The next couplet to one that you quoted in your article is:
“Kab nazar main aayay gi bay-dagh sabzay ki Bahar
Khoon kay dhabbay dhulain gay kitnee barsaaton kay baad”
Faiz Ahmad Faiz presented it in 1972 when he visited Dhaka along with Z. A. Bhutto. Later when he re-read this poem at a moshaira in London, Mr. Shahabbudin, Chief justice of Bangladesh, (who later became president when Gen. Irshad was forced to step down) commented, “Khoon kay dhabbay barsaaton say nahin dhulaa kartay”.
Whatever happened to Bengalis from 1947 to 1971 is usually touted as a crime committed by West Pakistani people. The accusers intentionally and conveniently forget that during the 12 years out of 23 years of history till 1971, Pakistan was governed by Martial Law. For the rest of the years during semi-selected or semi-elected governments of the fifties, the people of West Pakistan were as voiceless as their brothers in the East.
Lets not forget that Urdu was announced as a national language with mutual consent in 1948. The nationalist element did oppose the decision but all major mainstream political factions applauded. (We are not going to discuss in this post whether this decision was right or wrong). The nationalists, however, exploited this issue later when Urdu-speaking Biharis entered Bangladesh as refugees and Bengalis had to share their already meager resources with them.
Usually, it is also touted that it was only Pakistan Army that committed horrendous crimes against Bengalis. Again the accusers conveniently forget that the Rwanda style ethnic cleansing of West Pakistanis (WP) and non-Bengalis started weeks before the army action. Between March 1, when Awami League decided to go beyond point of no return, and March 26, when army action started, well over 100,000 WPs, Biharis, and pro-Pakistan Bengalis were killed by Muktee Bahni, Awami League, mutineers of East Bengal Regiment and East Pakistan Rifles. During this period the horrible crimes committed against non-Bengalis are a blot on the pages of history of humanity.
Lets take some examples from the news in international press.
“15,000 non-Bengalis were killed in Bogra, District Santahar in three days. Women were forced to march naked on the roads and mothers were forced to drink blood of their own babies.”
“Over 10,000 non-Bengalis were killed in Chatagong. Well over 250 women and children were killed with bayonets.”
“In Siraj Ganj near Pabna, nearly 350 non-Bengali women and children were locked in a hall and were incinerated alive.”
“In the region of Sankoo Para near Maymon Singh a non Bengali residential colony of 2000 families, was razed to ground. Men were taken out and shot whereas women were raped and forced to dig their own graves, later killed”.
(Times London, 16 April, 1971)
“When East Pakistan Rifles (EPR) committed mutiny, their first reaction was to kill all non-Bengali colleagues. Among 15,000 personnel strong EPR, 40% were non-Bengalis, mostly officers. EPR filled a train with the corpses of their colleagues and their families and buried them near an Indian border town of Hari Das Pur”
(Far Eastern Economic Review, Hong Kong, 24 April 1971, By T.S. George)
“It is evident from the eye-witness accounts that when Bengalis felt that Awaami League will come in power, they killed Biharis at several places and looted their property”.
(New York Times, 10 May, 1972, Malcolm W. Brown)
“There is a strong evidence present, which suggests that mutineers attacked non Bengalis, chopped them and set their property on fire. According to eye-witness accounts about 1500 widows and children were seen taking refuge in a mosque in Maymon Singh after their men were killed by Bengalis.”
(Ceylon Daily News, Colombo, 15 May ’71, Marcos Quates)
“The news reporters who visited this important port (Chetagong) yesterday reported that firing and shelling have caused heavy damage. Mutineers massacred the city dwellers. News reporters saw a mass grave, in a jute mill owned by prominent Isfehani family, that contained 152 corpses of non-Bengali women and children who were shot in the club of that mill. The locals also showed them a burnt down building where Bengalis incinerated 350 Pathaans alive”
(Washington Post, May 22, 1971, Associated Press News)
Although the datelines suggest otherwise, the above quoted events happened before the army action started on March 26. A certain amount of text was edited in order to keep the posting as concise as possible. These events should not come as a surprise to people who understand the mechanics of gorilla warfare, especially, when it is fought on the basis of ethnic ideology. The point-of-no-return tactic is used when all doors of reconciliation are deliberately closed. That was actually a trap set up by the masterminds sitting on the Indian side of the border for Pakistan Army. When reinforcements were sent by mid March and one of the high-ranking Pakistani officer was briefed about the state of affairs, he was dumbfounded with the extent and nature of atrocities, the words he uttered were ``No mercy for the savages``. Muktee Bahni learned their lessons well from their Indian masters and trainers.
All the said acts, in no way validate, whatever happened during army action. A crime against humanity is still a crime. Whatever happened there is not just Pakistan Army’s responsibility. The point is that the horrendous crimes were committed on both sides.
So Temporal!
If you posted this article as an effort to reconcile with Bengalis you have failed miserably. Any peace without justice is short lived. Next time if you decide to apologize on behalf of whole nation, ask first. West Pakistanis are in no way responsible for the actions committed by despots. An average West Pakistani had no idea what was going on in East Pakistan until December 1971. They were in no position to validate or support the actions of despots. Are Bengalis willing to accept their responsibility for their actions committed before December 16 and for what they did to the non-Bengali speaking population immediately after? I guess we need a lot more “Barsaatain” to wash this blood.
#4 Posted by fairdinkum on May 22, 2000 11:03:22 am
Umairr #2
Except for the last paragraph, I find myself in agreement with the rest of your post.....I just wish that Indians would own up to the excesses of their security forces in Kashmir and elsewhere. But then again, they are Indians after all. They never do anything wrong, do they?
Well, I can understand you standing up for your buddies in the last paragraph! Just kidding!
I personally witnessed the beatings, and occasionally killings of bengali ``chooran walas`` by civilians in west pakistan...
So, I think in a way you are right, but I don`t think that majority of Pakistanis would have condoned the massacres, the gang rapes, and the rest that Pak army was involved in.
At any rate, it is part of our histroy I will always be ashamed of. Temporal, khuda tumhain khush rakhay!
Except for the last paragraph, I find myself in agreement with the rest of your post.....I just wish that Indians would own up to the excesses of their security forces in Kashmir and elsewhere. But then again, they are Indians after all. They never do anything wrong, do they?
Well, I can understand you standing up for your buddies in the last paragraph! Just kidding!
I personally witnessed the beatings, and occasionally killings of bengali ``chooran walas`` by civilians in west pakistan...
So, I think in a way you are right, but I don`t think that majority of Pakistanis would have condoned the massacres, the gang rapes, and the rest that Pak army was involved in.
At any rate, it is part of our histroy I will always be ashamed of. Temporal, khuda tumhain khush rakhay!
#3 Posted by fairdinkum on May 22, 2000 4:53:12 am
And for the poor ``moosi chooran walas`` many of whom were beaten to death by the ``patriotic`` west pakistanis.
I APOLOGIZE!
I APOLOGIZE!
#2 Posted by Umairr on May 22, 2000 4:53:12 am
Very interesting.
Personally speaking, I am quite impressed with the self-confidence shown by the Pakistani contributors on Chowk in accepting the faults of Pakistan, on national and international issues. On the face of it, self-criticism seems like a defeatist attitude. However, it is a sign of hidden self-confidence. It is very encouraging to see that Pakistanis are willing to own up to the Pakistani human rights attitude in the past, and present. Perhaps, it is a lesson for others.
One person by him/herself cannot change govt. policy on human rights violations. However, one person can at least speak out against human rights violations (at the very least not support them). It takes a lot of courage to admit one`s personal and national faults. I think that more than anything else, it requires a fair and consciouncess thought process. This seems to be lacking in countries whose govts. are committing human rights violations.
As long as one holds the human life more important than any religion, ideology, govt. policy etc., deciding which individuals should be free, and which should be allowed to form their own country becomes an easy decision. The desire of one group of human beings (in power) to impose their own will and ideas on another group of human beings is the cause of the human rights violations in the world. This is what happened in case of Pakistan/Bangladesh. It is good to see that an overwhelming amount of Pakistanis on Chowk are willing to own upto it. For peace to occur in South Asia, this has to become a common theme in region.
One point: I think it is somewhat cowardly of Pakistanis to blame only the military for for what occurred in 1971. Military excesses are an extension of politic excesses, and politic excesses are an extension of the desires of the general population (even during Martial Law). The primary blame should fall upon the people of Pakistan in general, both military and civilian.
Personally speaking, I am quite impressed with the self-confidence shown by the Pakistani contributors on Chowk in accepting the faults of Pakistan, on national and international issues. On the face of it, self-criticism seems like a defeatist attitude. However, it is a sign of hidden self-confidence. It is very encouraging to see that Pakistanis are willing to own up to the Pakistani human rights attitude in the past, and present. Perhaps, it is a lesson for others.
One person by him/herself cannot change govt. policy on human rights violations. However, one person can at least speak out against human rights violations (at the very least not support them). It takes a lot of courage to admit one`s personal and national faults. I think that more than anything else, it requires a fair and consciouncess thought process. This seems to be lacking in countries whose govts. are committing human rights violations.
As long as one holds the human life more important than any religion, ideology, govt. policy etc., deciding which individuals should be free, and which should be allowed to form their own country becomes an easy decision. The desire of one group of human beings (in power) to impose their own will and ideas on another group of human beings is the cause of the human rights violations in the world. This is what happened in case of Pakistan/Bangladesh. It is good to see that an overwhelming amount of Pakistanis on Chowk are willing to own upto it. For peace to occur in South Asia, this has to become a common theme in region.
One point: I think it is somewhat cowardly of Pakistanis to blame only the military for for what occurred in 1971. Military excesses are an extension of politic excesses, and politic excesses are an extension of the desires of the general population (even during Martial Law). The primary blame should fall upon the people of Pakistan in general, both military and civilian.
#1 Posted by sigalph235 on May 22, 2000 1:30:10 am
There are so many things I want to and can say. And yet, cannot. So let me just say
Thank you.
Thank you.
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