Sadia Afroze Ali

There are so many things I want to and can say. And yet, cannot. So let me just say

Thank you.

Very interesting.

Personally speaking, I am quite impressed with the self-confidence shown by the Pakistani contributors on Chowk in accepting the faults of Pakistan, on national and international issues. On the face of it, self-criticism seems like a defeatist attitude. However, it is a sign of hidden self-confidence. It is very encouraging to see that Pakistanis are willing to own up to the Pakistani human rights attitude in the past, and present. Perhaps, it is a lesson for others.

One person by him/herself cannot change govt. policy on human rights violations. However, one person can at least speak out against human rights violations (at the very least not support them). It takes a lot of courage to admit one`s personal and national faults. I think that more than anything else, it requires a fair and consciouncess thought process. This seems to be lacking in countries whose govts. are committing human rights violations.

As long as one holds the human life more important than any religion, ideology, govt. policy etc., deciding which individuals should be free, and which should be allowed to form their own country becomes an easy decision. The desire of one group of human beings (in power) to impose their own will and ideas on another group of human beings is the cause of the human rights violations in the world. This is what happened in case of Pakistan/Bangladesh. It is good to see that an overwhelming amount of Pakistanis on Chowk are willing to own upto it. For peace to occur in South Asia, this has to become a common theme in region.

One point: I think it is somewhat cowardly of Pakistanis to blame only the military for for what occurred in 1971. Military excesses are an extension of politic excesses, and politic excesses are an extension of the desires of the general population (even during Martial Law). The primary blame should fall upon the people of Pakistan in general, both military and civilian.

And for the poor ``moosi chooran walas`` many of whom were beaten to death by the ``patriotic`` west pakistanis.

I APOLOGIZE!

Umairr #2

Except for the last paragraph, I find myself in agreement with the rest of your post.....I just wish that Indians would own up to the excesses of their security forces in Kashmir and elsewhere. But then again, they are Indians after all. They never do anything wrong, do they?

Well, I can understand you standing up for your buddies in the last paragraph! Just kidding!

I personally witnessed the beatings, and occasionally killings of bengali ``chooran walas`` by civilians in west pakistan...

So, I think in a way you are right, but I don`t think that majority of Pakistanis would have condoned the massacres, the gang rapes, and the rest that Pak army was involved in.

At any rate, it is part of our histroy I will always be ashamed of. Temporal, khuda tumhain khush rakhay!

Temporal!

The next couplet to one that you quoted in your article is:

“Kab nazar main aayay gi bay-dagh sabzay ki Bahar

Khoon kay dhabbay dhulain gay kitnee barsaaton kay baad”

Faiz Ahmad Faiz presented it in 1972 when he visited Dhaka along with Z. A. Bhutto. Later when he re-read this poem at a moshaira in London, Mr. Shahabbudin, Chief justice of Bangladesh, (who later became president when Gen. Irshad was forced to step down) commented, “Khoon kay dhabbay barsaaton say nahin dhulaa kartay”.

Whatever happened to Bengalis from 1947 to 1971 is usually touted as a crime committed by West Pakistani people. The accusers intentionally and conveniently forget that during the 12 years out of 23 years of history till 1971, Pakistan was governed by Martial Law. For the rest of the years during semi-selected or semi-elected governments of the fifties, the people of West Pakistan were as voiceless as their brothers in the East.

Lets not forget that Urdu was announced as a national language with mutual consent in 1948. The nationalist element did oppose the decision but all major mainstream political factions applauded. (We are not going to discuss in this post whether this decision was right or wrong). The nationalists, however, exploited this issue later when Urdu-speaking Biharis entered Bangladesh as refugees and Bengalis had to share their already meager resources with them.

Usually, it is also touted that it was only Pakistan Army that committed horrendous crimes against Bengalis. Again the accusers conveniently forget that the Rwanda style ethnic cleansing of West Pakistanis (WP) and non-Bengalis started weeks before the army action. Between March 1, when Awami League decided to go beyond point of no return, and March 26, when army action started, well over 100,000 WPs, Biharis, and pro-Pakistan Bengalis were killed by Muktee Bahni, Awami League, mutineers of East Bengal Regiment and East Pakistan Rifles. During this period the horrible crimes committed against non-Bengalis are a blot on the pages of history of humanity.

Lets take some examples from the news in international press.

“15,000 non-Bengalis were killed in Bogra, District Santahar in three days. Women were forced to march naked on the roads and mothers were forced to drink blood of their own babies.”

“Over 10,000 non-Bengalis were killed in Chatagong. Well over 250 women and children were killed with bayonets.”

“In Siraj Ganj near Pabna, nearly 350 non-Bengali women and children were locked in a hall and were incinerated alive.”

“In the region of Sankoo Para near Maymon Singh a non Bengali residential colony of 2000 families, was razed to ground. Men were taken out and shot whereas women were raped and forced to dig their own graves, later killed”.

(Times London, 16 April, 1971)

“When East Pakistan Rifles (EPR) committed mutiny, their first reaction was to kill all non-Bengali colleagues. Among 15,000 personnel strong EPR, 40% were non-Bengalis, mostly officers. EPR filled a train with the corpses of their colleagues and their families and buried them near an Indian border town of Hari Das Pur”

(Far Eastern Economic Review, Hong Kong, 24 April 1971, By T.S. George)

“It is evident from the eye-witness accounts that when Bengalis felt that Awaami League will come in power, they killed Biharis at several places and looted their property”.

(New York Times, 10 May, 1972, Malcolm W. Brown)

“There is a strong evidence present, which suggests that mutineers attacked non Bengalis, chopped them and set their property on fire. According to eye-witness accounts about 1500 widows and children were seen taking refuge in a mosque in Maymon Singh after their men were killed by Bengalis.”

(Ceylon Daily News, Colombo, 15 May ’71, Marcos Quates)

“The news reporters who visited this important port (Chetagong) yesterday reported that firing and shelling have caused heavy damage. Mutineers massacred the city dwellers. News reporters saw a mass grave, in a jute mill owned by prominent Isfehani family, that contained 152 corpses of non-Bengali women and children who were shot in the club of that mill. The locals also showed them a burnt down building where Bengalis incinerated 350 Pathaans alive”

(Washington Post, May 22, 1971, Associated Press News)

Although the datelines suggest otherwise, the above quoted events happened before the army action started on March 26. A certain amount of text was edited in order to keep the posting as concise as possible. These events should not come as a surprise to people who understand the mechanics of gorilla warfare, especially, when it is fought on the basis of ethnic ideology. The point-of-no-return tactic is used when all doors of reconciliation are deliberately closed. That was actually a trap set up by the masterminds sitting on the Indian side of the border for Pakistan Army. When reinforcements were sent by mid March and one of the high-ranking Pakistani officer was briefed about the state of affairs, he was dumbfounded with the extent and nature of atrocities, the words he uttered were ``No mercy for the savages``. Muktee Bahni learned their lessons well from their Indian masters and trainers.



All the said acts, in no way validate, whatever happened during army action. A crime against humanity is still a crime. Whatever happened there is not just Pakistan Army’s responsibility. The point is that the horrendous crimes were committed on both sides.

So Temporal!

If you posted this article as an effort to reconcile with Bengalis you have failed miserably. Any peace without justice is short lived. Next time if you decide to apologize on behalf of whole nation, ask first. West Pakistanis are in no way responsible for the actions committed by despots. An average West Pakistani had no idea what was going on in East Pakistan until December 1971. They were in no position to validate or support the actions of despots. Are Bengalis willing to accept their responsibility for their actions committed before December 16 and for what they did to the non-Bengali speaking population immediately after? I guess we need a lot more “Barsaatain” to wash this blood.

Dear Temporal:

My understanding of the fall of East Pakistan is somewhat similar to that of Urstruly. I am, in particular, critical of the role of the power elite and the state apparatus in dealing with the situation in East Pakistan. As citizens, we should not take responsibility of the actions of a state that is essentially unrepresentative of its people. The source of state power needs to be the people first and the people last.

The state of Pakistan needs to apologize to the people of Pakistan for the atrocities committed in all parts of Pakistan, including the erstwhile East Pakistan. This step would be a first major step toward the establishment of the sovereignty of the people of Pakistan.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Pakistan and Bangladesh will always be brothers!

The cries of Bhutto-Mujeeb Bhai Bhai in Lahore in 1974 at the Islamic Summit conference is a proof of a supernationality, a common parentage, an emotional Bond that exists between our two nations ... the Bond of Islam! Everybody made Mistakes... some Pakistanis make a scapegoat out ofindividuals for causing the break up ... ridiculous ... whereas somebody said on this forum that we are not responsible ... we forget the Ayub Era and its contribution to Pakistan`s destruction...we forget all else ... WE COLLECTIVELY NEED TO SAY SORRY !!!!!!!Some people never admit their mistakes .... Others rectify them..... I think Zulfikar Ali Bhutto rectified his ... by accepting the sovereignty of Bangladesh in 1974 and by bringing BD and Pakistan closer ... Now it is our turn .... I can also say that I was not involved nor was anyone from my family in 1971 .... I was born 9 years after !!!!!BUT I AM SORRY ... I am sorry that we did what we did ....

-Bangladesh Zindabad

-Pakistan Zindabad

-Quaid e Azam Jinnah Zindabad

-Jiye Bhutto

Ref Urstruly #: 5

``The point-of-no-return tactic is used when all doors of reconciliation are deliberately closed. That was actually a trap set up by the masterminds sitting on the Indian side of the border for Pakistan Army.``

Yes, even Bhutto fell into the trap when he said that any West Pakistani MNA attending the opening meeting of the National Assembly will have his legs broken. Those mantras of the Brahmins are really powerful. Now if only Bhutto had been more observant as a Muslim, those Hindu mantras would have been, inshah Allah, totally ineffective.

``When reinforcements were sent by mid March and one of the high-ranking Pakistani officer was briefed about the state of affairs, he was dumbfounded with the extent and nature of atrocities, the words he uttered were ``No mercy for the savages``. Muktee Bahni learned their lessons well from their Indian masters and trainers.``

Just ordinary savages? Not dark-skinned, Bengali-speaking, Hindu-loving, Urdu-hating, rice-eating, Islam-bashing, Pakistan-hating, India-supported, India-supporting, short, dhoti-wearing, midget-sized, secessionist-minded savages?

``Whatever happened there is not just Pakistan Army’s responsibility. The point is that the horrendous crimes were committed on both sides.``

Actually, I agree we should absolve the Pak army. After all, there wasn`t a Pak Army in 1947.

Temporal,
Great sentiment!
There are literally hundreds of thousands
of such greetings that can be exchanged between
Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.
Anyone here interested in the Stranded Pakistanis
also known as ``Biharis``?

Ras

temporal: a very good attempt to reconcile with the ugly, pathetic, blood-soaked and,for some, nostalgic past, using pen to make a bridge over the murky waters of the river of hate, misunderstanding, exploitation, discrimination,...........

After losing to Bangaldeshi cricket team during the last World Cup Cricket Tournament, the captain of Pakistani cricket team, Wasim Akram said something like: ``It is better to lose at the hands of brothers than to others``.

Good people like to do good things with whatever skills they have. Even a noble thought is better than doing nothing. Keep up the good work.

Regards,

Sameer

If West Pak is not responsible becasue it didn`t know what was going on in Bangladesh, because military and despots had been in power, what make you think West Pak knows what`s really going on in Kashmir. Same military and despots are still in power.

Once again, it is heartening to see that Pakistanis are willing to accept their faults and the excesses committed by Pakistan. It is definitely a sign of maturity and self-confidence, and of course humanity.

fairdinkum #4: ``Except for the last paragraph, I find myself in agreement with the rest of your post.``

I think I did not make myself clear, so perhaps my comments were misunderstood. I was in no way suggesting that the human rights excesses of soldiers should not be condemned. I think they definitely should be. However one thing I have noticed in Pakistan, as well as in the US (the only two countries in which I have lived extensively) is that in the end civilians rarely except their own responsibilities in suppressions. It always turns into civilians apologizing for the actions of their militaries. This was quite apparent in the US/Vietnam era.

In my opinion, the military of any country is an extension of its political outlook, which is an extension of its general population. Even in third world countries, if a group of people are passionate enough about a cause, they can influence political opinion (at least in the urban areas). There is nothing more threatening to a politician (or a CMLA) than an angry rioting populace. I was not old enough in 71 to know what was going on. However, I would be interested if someone could provide any information on mass strikes, riots, etc. in West Pakistan by the masses in support of East Pakistanis. I am assuming the exploitation of E. Pakistanis was with the tacit approval of the W. Pakistani civilians. So the blame should be shared by everyone.

Tibor #11: ``what make you think West Pak knows what`s really going on in Kashmir.``

Could you explain what is going on in Kashmir?

I would be very interested in getting your point of view. I work with Amnesty International, and am trying hard to get to Kashmir, somehow or the other through AI. I have a ton of information from AI on Kashmir. I am a Kashmiri myself with family roots in Srinigar. A big portion of my family is settled in Pakistani Kashmir, after migrating from Indian Kashmir. Perhaps my view of Kashmir is distorted, and you can provide some insights.

If on the other hand, you know fully well the Indian accesses in Kashmir, and are trying to justify them, then all I can say is that every day I grow more and more grateful that my grandparents and grandparents` generation fought for and created Pakistan (sidenote: that doesn`t mean I hate Indians; just had lunch with one today).

I think the best way to know what is going in Kashmir is by allowing organizations like Amnesty International into Kashmir. Pakistan is more than happy to allow AI into Pakistani Kashmir. However India is going out of its way to ensure that AI is not allowed in (or if it is ever allowed in, then only on a very limited basis). I think Indian Kashmir should be completely opened up to the interantional press and human rights organizations, so that your questions about what is going on there can be answered. Would you be in agreement with that?

An important point to note here is that Pakistanis on Chowk are willing to own up to the mistakes committed by Pakistan. They are not trying to legitimize or justify them.

``Same military and despots are still in power.``

The military is currently in power in Pakistan, however I wouldn`t put anyone in the current miltiary regime in the despot category. Some Pakistanis will disagree with this, however I think most will agree that Musharraf and Co. have not done anything despotic.

What happened in East Pakistan is a dark chapter in our History. Any discussion on this topic must address the reasons why this tragedy happened.

The biggest support for the creation of Pakistan came from Bengal. The Muslim League itself originated in Bengal. Why was it then, that the people who had been at the front of the Pakistan movement, were the first to reject Pakistan? There must have been very strong reasons.

On the other hand, the provinces which now form a major part of Pakistan, i.e. Punjab and Frontier were slow to support the the cause of Pakistan. Yet Punjab today is the strongest supporter of the ideology of Pakistan. In the other regions, Sind, Frontier, Baluchistan, there have been incidents of questioning the creation of Pakistan. Why??

Unless we ponder on these issues we wont be able to understand the East Pakistan tragedy.

I would also reccomend, two books:

1. Witness to surrender by siddiq Salik

2. Jinnah, Pakistan and Islamic ideology by Akbar Ahmed

RE: YLH- Reply# 7

I hate to blow your bubble Yasser, your innocence is kind of cute. There is a very ugly reality behind those Mujeeb-Bhutto gestures of goodwill, brotherhood, and concept of Ummah thing etc. etc. Don’t forget that, about 90,000 army personnel and civilians were held prisoners of war in Indian camps, at the time. Mujeeb was under tremendous pressure from his comrades of Awami League and India to acquire a legitimized status of secession in the eyes of the rest of the world, whereas, there was a growing sentiment in West Pakistan to reconcile with Bengalis. To put pressure on GOP, Bangladesh (with the help of India) was running a worldwide campaign to hold Nuremburgh style trials of Pakistan Army officers for the crimes committed against people of Bangladesh. Government of Pakistan was also under great pressure from the relatives of POWs to arrange for their release.

So the bargain went like this: Pakistan recognized the sovereign state of Bangladesh in exchange for the release of 90,000 POWs and no further demand from BD for Nuremburgh (I apologize for spellings) style trials for crimes committed against humanity.

Bhutto sugarcoated this hard to swallow pill with Third Islamic Summit Conference and gestures of Islamic brotherhood to pull the nation out of this quicksand once and for all. No matter how much you hate Bhutto, not recognizing his great statesmanship will be a great dishonesty. Similarly, not putting everything possible in perspective is a greater dishonesty.

hum key tharey ajnabi kitni mulaqatoon key baad

phir banein gey ashnaa kiyni madaratoon key baad

kab nazar aye gii bey dagh sabzey ki bahar

khoon key dhabey dhullain gey kitni barsatoon key baad

theay buhat bey-dard lamhey khatm-e-dard-e-ishq key

theein buhat bey-maher subhain meharban ratoon key baad

dil tu chaha per shikast-ey dill ney muhalat hi na dee

kuch gilay shikway bhi kar letay manajatoon key baad

Unn sey ju kehney gaye they faiz jaan sadqa kiye

an-kahi hei reh gayi woh baat sab batoon key baad

guess we pakistanis already said sorry for what we did when faiz ahmed faiz wrote this after he came back from bangladesh in 1974 ..........

and nobady can get away by saying that indian traped us and bangladeshis so we did it provakedly, that dosen`t justifies anything in any way

i was born in 1976 i come to know that what known as bangladesh to us was actually use to be east pakistan, in probably 1984 when i was in 3rd standard the immidiate recation if i recall right was ``ohh so they were the betrayers .....``

i question you ppl ( the ones born before the fall of dhaka ) i make every one of you responsible for what happened then ......

for not delivering us the whole pakistan u had ..

as the genrations would come will account us responsible for what is happeneing and what happened in karachi in last 5 years

between urdu speaking and non-urdu speaking....

I would just pray that we learn from our mistakes and not to repeat the same mistakes again .....

Iss taan ki taraf dekhoo ju qatal gah-ey dil hey

kya rakha hai maqtal mein aey chashm-e-tamashai

with heavy heart !!

/ * *sigh//