Sadia Afroze Ali

There are so many things I want to and can say. And yet, cannot. So let me just say

Thank you.

Very interesting.

Personally speaking, I am quite impressed with the self-confidence shown by the Pakistani contributors on Chowk in accepting the faults of Pakistan, on national and international issues. On the face of it, self-criticism seems like a defeatist attitude. However, it is a sign of hidden self-confidence. It is very encouraging to see that Pakistanis are willing to own up to the Pakistani human rights attitude in the past, and present. Perhaps, it is a lesson for others.

One person by him/herself cannot change govt. policy on human rights violations. However, one person can at least speak out against human rights violations (at the very least not support them). It takes a lot of courage to admit one`s personal and national faults. I think that more than anything else, it requires a fair and consciouncess thought process. This seems to be lacking in countries whose govts. are committing human rights violations.

As long as one holds the human life more important than any religion, ideology, govt. policy etc., deciding which individuals should be free, and which should be allowed to form their own country becomes an easy decision. The desire of one group of human beings (in power) to impose their own will and ideas on another group of human beings is the cause of the human rights violations in the world. This is what happened in case of Pakistan/Bangladesh. It is good to see that an overwhelming amount of Pakistanis on Chowk are willing to own upto it. For peace to occur in South Asia, this has to become a common theme in region.

One point: I think it is somewhat cowardly of Pakistanis to blame only the military for for what occurred in 1971. Military excesses are an extension of politic excesses, and politic excesses are an extension of the desires of the general population (even during Martial Law). The primary blame should fall upon the people of Pakistan in general, both military and civilian.

And for the poor ``moosi chooran walas`` many of whom were beaten to death by the ``patriotic`` west pakistanis.

I APOLOGIZE!

Umairr #2

Except for the last paragraph, I find myself in agreement with the rest of your post.....I just wish that Indians would own up to the excesses of their security forces in Kashmir and elsewhere. But then again, they are Indians after all. They never do anything wrong, do they?

Well, I can understand you standing up for your buddies in the last paragraph! Just kidding!

I personally witnessed the beatings, and occasionally killings of bengali ``chooran walas`` by civilians in west pakistan...

So, I think in a way you are right, but I don`t think that majority of Pakistanis would have condoned the massacres, the gang rapes, and the rest that Pak army was involved in.

At any rate, it is part of our histroy I will always be ashamed of. Temporal, khuda tumhain khush rakhay!

Temporal!

The next couplet to one that you quoted in your article is:

“Kab nazar main aayay gi bay-dagh sabzay ki Bahar

Khoon kay dhabbay dhulain gay kitnee barsaaton kay baad”

Faiz Ahmad Faiz presented it in 1972 when he visited Dhaka along with Z. A. Bhutto. Later when he re-read this poem at a moshaira in London, Mr. Shahabbudin, Chief justice of Bangladesh, (who later became president when Gen. Irshad was forced to step down) commented, “Khoon kay dhabbay barsaaton say nahin dhulaa kartay”.

Whatever happened to Bengalis from 1947 to 1971 is usually touted as a crime committed by West Pakistani people. The accusers intentionally and conveniently forget that during the 12 years out of 23 years of history till 1971, Pakistan was governed by Martial Law. For the rest of the years during semi-selected or semi-elected governments of the fifties, the people of West Pakistan were as voiceless as their brothers in the East.

Lets not forget that Urdu was announced as a national language with mutual consent in 1948. The nationalist element did oppose the decision but all major mainstream political factions applauded. (We are not going to discuss in this post whether this decision was right or wrong). The nationalists, however, exploited this issue later when Urdu-speaking Biharis entered Bangladesh as refugees and Bengalis had to share their already meager resources with them.

Usually, it is also touted that it was only Pakistan Army that committed horrendous crimes against Bengalis. Again the accusers conveniently forget that the Rwanda style ethnic cleansing of West Pakistanis (WP) and non-Bengalis started weeks before the army action. Between March 1, when Awami League decided to go beyond point of no return, and March 26, when army action started, well over 100,000 WPs, Biharis, and pro-Pakistan Bengalis were killed by Muktee Bahni, Awami League, mutineers of East Bengal Regiment and East Pakistan Rifles. During this period the horrible crimes committed against non-Bengalis are a blot on the pages of history of humanity.

Lets take some examples from the news in international press.

“15,000 non-Bengalis were killed in Bogra, District Santahar in three days. Women were forced to march naked on the roads and mothers were forced to drink blood of their own babies.”

“Over 10,000 non-Bengalis were killed in Chatagong. Well over 250 women and children were killed with bayonets.”

“In Siraj Ganj near Pabna, nearly 350 non-Bengali women and children were locked in a hall and were incinerated alive.”

“In the region of Sankoo Para near Maymon Singh a non Bengali residential colony of 2000 families, was razed to ground. Men were taken out and shot whereas women were raped and forced to dig their own graves, later killed”.

(Times London, 16 April, 1971)

“When East Pakistan Rifles (EPR) committed mutiny, their first reaction was to kill all non-Bengali colleagues. Among 15,000 personnel strong EPR, 40% were non-Bengalis, mostly officers. EPR filled a train with the corpses of their colleagues and their families and buried them near an Indian border town of Hari Das Pur”

(Far Eastern Economic Review, Hong Kong, 24 April 1971, By T.S. George)

“It is evident from the eye-witness accounts that when Bengalis felt that Awaami League will come in power, they killed Biharis at several places and looted their property”.

(New York Times, 10 May, 1972, Malcolm W. Brown)

“There is a strong evidence present, which suggests that mutineers attacked non Bengalis, chopped them and set their property on fire. According to eye-witness accounts about 1500 widows and children were seen taking refuge in a mosque in Maymon Singh after their men were killed by Bengalis.”

(Ceylon Daily News, Colombo, 15 May ’71, Marcos Quates)

“The news reporters who visited this important port (Chetagong) yesterday reported that firing and shelling have caused heavy damage. Mutineers massacred the city dwellers. News reporters saw a mass grave, in a jute mill owned by prominent Isfehani family, that contained 152 corpses of non-Bengali women and children who were shot in the club of that mill. The locals also showed them a burnt down building where Bengalis incinerated 350 Pathaans alive”

(Washington Post, May 22, 1971, Associated Press News)

Although the datelines suggest otherwise, the above quoted events happened before the army action started on March 26. A certain amount of text was edited in order to keep the posting as concise as possible. These events should not come as a surprise to people who understand the mechanics of gorilla warfare, especially, when it is fought on the basis of ethnic ideology. The point-of-no-return tactic is used when all doors of reconciliation are deliberately closed. That was actually a trap set up by the masterminds sitting on the Indian side of the border for Pakistan Army. When reinforcements were sent by mid March and one of the high-ranking Pakistani officer was briefed about the state of affairs, he was dumbfounded with the extent and nature of atrocities, the words he uttered were ``No mercy for the savages``. Muktee Bahni learned their lessons well from their Indian masters and trainers.



All the said acts, in no way validate, whatever happened during army action. A crime against humanity is still a crime. Whatever happened there is not just Pakistan Army’s responsibility. The point is that the horrendous crimes were committed on both sides.

So Temporal!

If you posted this article as an effort to reconcile with Bengalis you have failed miserably. Any peace without justice is short lived. Next time if you decide to apologize on behalf of whole nation, ask first. West Pakistanis are in no way responsible for the actions committed by despots. An average West Pakistani had no idea what was going on in East Pakistan until December 1971. They were in no position to validate or support the actions of despots. Are Bengalis willing to accept their responsibility for their actions committed before December 16 and for what they did to the non-Bengali speaking population immediately after? I guess we need a lot more “Barsaatain” to wash this blood.

Dear Temporal:

My understanding of the fall of East Pakistan is somewhat similar to that of Urstruly. I am, in particular, critical of the role of the power elite and the state apparatus in dealing with the situation in East Pakistan. As citizens, we should not take responsibility of the actions of a state that is essentially unrepresentative of its people. The source of state power needs to be the people first and the people last.

The state of Pakistan needs to apologize to the people of Pakistan for the atrocities committed in all parts of Pakistan, including the erstwhile East Pakistan. This step would be a first major step toward the establishment of the sovereignty of the people of Pakistan.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Pakistan and Bangladesh will always be brothers!

The cries of Bhutto-Mujeeb Bhai Bhai in Lahore in 1974 at the Islamic Summit conference is a proof of a supernationality, a common parentage, an emotional Bond that exists between our two nations ... the Bond of Islam! Everybody made Mistakes... some Pakistanis make a scapegoat out ofindividuals for causing the break up ... ridiculous ... whereas somebody said on this forum that we are not responsible ... we forget the Ayub Era and its contribution to Pakistan`s destruction...we forget all else ... WE COLLECTIVELY NEED TO SAY SORRY !!!!!!!Some people never admit their mistakes .... Others rectify them..... I think Zulfikar Ali Bhutto rectified his ... by accepting the sovereignty of Bangladesh in 1974 and by bringing BD and Pakistan closer ... Now it is our turn .... I can also say that I was not involved nor was anyone from my family in 1971 .... I was born 9 years after !!!!!BUT I AM SORRY ... I am sorry that we did what we did ....

-Bangladesh Zindabad

-Pakistan Zindabad

-Quaid e Azam Jinnah Zindabad

-Jiye Bhutto

Ref Urstruly #: 5

``The point-of-no-return tactic is used when all doors of reconciliation are deliberately closed. That was actually a trap set up by the masterminds sitting on the Indian side of the border for Pakistan Army.``

Yes, even Bhutto fell into the trap when he said that any West Pakistani MNA attending the opening meeting of the National Assembly will have his legs broken. Those mantras of the Brahmins are really powerful. Now if only Bhutto had been more observant as a Muslim, those Hindu mantras would have been, inshah Allah, totally ineffective.

``When reinforcements were sent by mid March and one of the high-ranking Pakistani officer was briefed about the state of affairs, he was dumbfounded with the extent and nature of atrocities, the words he uttered were ``No mercy for the savages``. Muktee Bahni learned their lessons well from their Indian masters and trainers.``

Just ordinary savages? Not dark-skinned, Bengali-speaking, Hindu-loving, Urdu-hating, rice-eating, Islam-bashing, Pakistan-hating, India-supported, India-supporting, short, dhoti-wearing, midget-sized, secessionist-minded savages?

``Whatever happened there is not just Pakistan Army’s responsibility. The point is that the horrendous crimes were committed on both sides.``

Actually, I agree we should absolve the Pak army. After all, there wasn`t a Pak Army in 1947.

Temporal,
Great sentiment!
There are literally hundreds of thousands
of such greetings that can be exchanged between
Pakistanis and Bangladeshis.
Anyone here interested in the Stranded Pakistanis
also known as ``Biharis``?

Ras

temporal: a very good attempt to reconcile with the ugly, pathetic, blood-soaked and,for some, nostalgic past, using pen to make a bridge over the murky waters of the river of hate, misunderstanding, exploitation, discrimination,...........

After losing to Bangaldeshi cricket team during the last World Cup Cricket Tournament, the captain of Pakistani cricket team, Wasim Akram said something like: ``It is better to lose at the hands of brothers than to others``.

Good people like to do good things with whatever skills they have. Even a noble thought is better than doing nothing. Keep up the good work.

Regards,

Sameer

If West Pak is not responsible becasue it didn`t know what was going on in Bangladesh, because military and despots had been in power, what make you think West Pak knows what`s really going on in Kashmir. Same military and despots are still in power.

Once again, it is heartening to see that Pakistanis are willing to accept their faults and the excesses committed by Pakistan. It is definitely a sign of maturity and self-confidence, and of course humanity.

fairdinkum #4: ``Except for the last paragraph, I find myself in agreement with the rest of your post.``

I think I did not make myself clear, so perhaps my comments were misunderstood. I was in no way suggesting that the human rights excesses of soldiers should not be condemned. I think they definitely should be. However one thing I have noticed in Pakistan, as well as in the US (the only two countries in which I have lived extensively) is that in the end civilians rarely except their own responsibilities in suppressions. It always turns into civilians apologizing for the actions of their militaries. This was quite apparent in the US/Vietnam era.

In my opinion, the military of any country is an extension of its political outlook, which is an extension of its general population. Even in third world countries, if a group of people are passionate enough about a cause, they can influence political opinion (at least in the urban areas). There is nothing more threatening to a politician (or a CMLA) than an angry rioting populace. I was not old enough in 71 to know what was going on. However, I would be interested if someone could provide any information on mass strikes, riots, etc. in West Pakistan by the masses in support of East Pakistanis. I am assuming the exploitation of E. Pakistanis was with the tacit approval of the W. Pakistani civilians. So the blame should be shared by everyone.

Tibor #11: ``what make you think West Pak knows what`s really going on in Kashmir.``

Could you explain what is going on in Kashmir?

I would be very interested in getting your point of view. I work with Amnesty International, and am trying hard to get to Kashmir, somehow or the other through AI. I have a ton of information from AI on Kashmir. I am a Kashmiri myself with family roots in Srinigar. A big portion of my family is settled in Pakistani Kashmir, after migrating from Indian Kashmir. Perhaps my view of Kashmir is distorted, and you can provide some insights.

If on the other hand, you know fully well the Indian accesses in Kashmir, and are trying to justify them, then all I can say is that every day I grow more and more grateful that my grandparents and grandparents` generation fought for and created Pakistan (sidenote: that doesn`t mean I hate Indians; just had lunch with one today).

I think the best way to know what is going in Kashmir is by allowing organizations like Amnesty International into Kashmir. Pakistan is more than happy to allow AI into Pakistani Kashmir. However India is going out of its way to ensure that AI is not allowed in (or if it is ever allowed in, then only on a very limited basis). I think Indian Kashmir should be completely opened up to the interantional press and human rights organizations, so that your questions about what is going on there can be answered. Would you be in agreement with that?

An important point to note here is that Pakistanis on Chowk are willing to own up to the mistakes committed by Pakistan. They are not trying to legitimize or justify them.

``Same military and despots are still in power.``

The military is currently in power in Pakistan, however I wouldn`t put anyone in the current miltiary regime in the despot category. Some Pakistanis will disagree with this, however I think most will agree that Musharraf and Co. have not done anything despotic.

What happened in East Pakistan is a dark chapter in our History. Any discussion on this topic must address the reasons why this tragedy happened.

The biggest support for the creation of Pakistan came from Bengal. The Muslim League itself originated in Bengal. Why was it then, that the people who had been at the front of the Pakistan movement, were the first to reject Pakistan? There must have been very strong reasons.

On the other hand, the provinces which now form a major part of Pakistan, i.e. Punjab and Frontier were slow to support the the cause of Pakistan. Yet Punjab today is the strongest supporter of the ideology of Pakistan. In the other regions, Sind, Frontier, Baluchistan, there have been incidents of questioning the creation of Pakistan. Why??

Unless we ponder on these issues we wont be able to understand the East Pakistan tragedy.

I would also reccomend, two books:

1. Witness to surrender by siddiq Salik

2. Jinnah, Pakistan and Islamic ideology by Akbar Ahmed

RE: YLH- Reply# 7

I hate to blow your bubble Yasser, your innocence is kind of cute. There is a very ugly reality behind those Mujeeb-Bhutto gestures of goodwill, brotherhood, and concept of Ummah thing etc. etc. Don’t forget that, about 90,000 army personnel and civilians were held prisoners of war in Indian camps, at the time. Mujeeb was under tremendous pressure from his comrades of Awami League and India to acquire a legitimized status of secession in the eyes of the rest of the world, whereas, there was a growing sentiment in West Pakistan to reconcile with Bengalis. To put pressure on GOP, Bangladesh (with the help of India) was running a worldwide campaign to hold Nuremburgh style trials of Pakistan Army officers for the crimes committed against people of Bangladesh. Government of Pakistan was also under great pressure from the relatives of POWs to arrange for their release.

So the bargain went like this: Pakistan recognized the sovereign state of Bangladesh in exchange for the release of 90,000 POWs and no further demand from BD for Nuremburgh (I apologize for spellings) style trials for crimes committed against humanity.

Bhutto sugarcoated this hard to swallow pill with Third Islamic Summit Conference and gestures of Islamic brotherhood to pull the nation out of this quicksand once and for all. No matter how much you hate Bhutto, not recognizing his great statesmanship will be a great dishonesty. Similarly, not putting everything possible in perspective is a greater dishonesty.

hum key tharey ajnabi kitni mulaqatoon key baad

phir banein gey ashnaa kiyni madaratoon key baad

kab nazar aye gii bey dagh sabzey ki bahar

khoon key dhabey dhullain gey kitni barsatoon key baad

theay buhat bey-dard lamhey khatm-e-dard-e-ishq key

theein buhat bey-maher subhain meharban ratoon key baad

dil tu chaha per shikast-ey dill ney muhalat hi na dee

kuch gilay shikway bhi kar letay manajatoon key baad

Unn sey ju kehney gaye they faiz jaan sadqa kiye

an-kahi hei reh gayi woh baat sab batoon key baad

guess we pakistanis already said sorry for what we did when faiz ahmed faiz wrote this after he came back from bangladesh in 1974 ..........

and nobady can get away by saying that indian traped us and bangladeshis so we did it provakedly, that dosen`t justifies anything in any way

i was born in 1976 i come to know that what known as bangladesh to us was actually use to be east pakistan, in probably 1984 when i was in 3rd standard the immidiate recation if i recall right was ``ohh so they were the betrayers .....``

i question you ppl ( the ones born before the fall of dhaka ) i make every one of you responsible for what happened then ......

for not delivering us the whole pakistan u had ..

as the genrations would come will account us responsible for what is happeneing and what happened in karachi in last 5 years

between urdu speaking and non-urdu speaking....

I would just pray that we learn from our mistakes and not to repeat the same mistakes again .....

Iss taan ki taraf dekhoo ju qatal gah-ey dil hey

kya rakha hai maqtal mein aey chashm-e-tamashai

with heavy heart !!

/ * *sigh//

Temp,

A wonderful piece, filled with waves of nostalgia, tinged with sad realisation. You`ve touched upon the pain of generations. I hope your letter helped you do away with some of your own.



Manail

re # 5 (urstruly) and others

``Lets not forget that Urdu was announced as a national language with mutual consent in 1948``

Mutual consent? You`ve gotta be kidding! Don`t get me wrong, I believe that Urdu is one of the most beautiful languages in the world and second to none when it comes to poetic expressions. But my friend there was no ``mutual consent`` to the Quaid-e-Azam`s unilateral declaration on the Dhaka University campus. Some of the Founding Fathers of Pakistan, including Sher-e-Bangla AK Fazlul Haque (the man who moved the Pakistan Resolution in 1940), HS Suhrawardy, the last premier of Bengal, and Maulana Bhashani, the erstwhile president of the Assam Muslim League, vehemently opposed the language declaration. True, some Bengalis did support it but it was no ``consent`` of the majority. Hence the results of the 1952 provincial elections in which the Muslim League was forever finished in the very land where it was born.

I will be the first Bengali to admit that in 1971 non-Bengalis were victims of atrocities by gangs often led by their Bengali neighbours. Nothing excuses it. I am ashamed and sorry, though, like Yasser said, I wasn`t there either. That said, those atrocities cannot and must not be held up as a mitigating factor for what London`s Sunday Times aptly called ``The Ugliest Genocide in History``. That article was written not by a Bengali or even an Englishman, but by a former staffer of the Pakistan Times. On one hand was a mob mentality on part of gangs egged on by malicious Awami Leaguers. On the other was a deliberate state policy, carried out through the agency of an Occupation Army, to obliterate a resistance of an entire people. It is comparing Bosnian atrocities with the Serbian ones.

That said, when the long awaited trial for 1971 atrocities takes place (and it will, God-willing), it can only be considered fair when those accused on either side are brought to book. Anything less would smack of partiality. This trial must take place if for no other reason than to put a closure on a sad chapter of our common history. Then we can move on finally. After all if England and America can be such close allies, why cannot Bangladesh and Pakistan?

Lastly, let me reciprocate the wonderful sentiments expressed by so many Pakistanis on the board. They are much appreciated and admired and, hopefully, no mutual recriminations exist between us at individual levels. I am a fan of Pakistan myself, have spent many a great summer vacation there, and, after all the sad things done to her, still love Karachi from the bottom of my heart. In my discourses I`ve attempted my best to be respectful without being dishonest. Most of you will recall that my respect and admiration for the late Quaid-e-Azam is second to none`s. Being a lover of ghazals, one of my regrets in life is not having fluency in classical Urdu. So Yasser, when you become PM, may be I`ll want to be Ambassador (I mean High Commissioner!) in Islamabad. No, actually just the Consul General in Karachi.

Re: Urstrully # 5

``An average West Pakistani had no idea what was going on in East Pakistan until December 1971.``

Urstrully, you have a raised an opt repeated denial, which has been throughly repudiated by international law; ignorance of a genocide is not a vaild reason for absolving one from its blame, because the tacit consent is considered to have been given by in a sotto voce sense; silence justifies the act.

This argument did not work for the Germans in Nurnberg (Nuremberg) and the entire German nation was held, legally, accountable for the crimes of Nazi party. German armed forces were held accountable not, because the majority of their officiers committed the acts, but because they did not try to stop their comrades from committing the acts. Granted, the Waffen SS was more pronounced in the acts of mass murder than the Wehrmacht, the regular army, it still was not a valid reason to excuse its, the Wehrmachts` higher commanders from their roles in the deportations and the creation of concentration camps and they were duly hanged for it.

According to the legal rational, which emerged in the aftermath of the Nurnberg trials, the excuse that you were following orders is not a good excuse to absolve you from the crimes and in such circumtances, the law requires and lends a de jure status that soldiers are free to disobey an order if they think it is immoral and illegal.

Consequently, the Pakistani armed forces can be held accountable under this doctrine and in toto, the civilian population of West Pakistan, who through their actions in supporting their government, implicitily condoned the policies of their government in East Pakistan and ipso facto, were responsible for the continuation of those policies in East Pakistan.

Remember, Urstrully, what Edmund Burke once said:
``Evil succeds not because good men do it, but because they do nothing to stop it``.

I would like to join Temporal, and tender my apologies for the actions of my government in our own country against my fellow countrymen who were victimized and disenfranchised, both politically and in their lives, by the actions of Islamabad in pursuits of its own agenda.

Ciao!

Urstruly

I actually like Zulfikar Ali Bhutto a lot. He is my hero. I dont think all blame can be put on him for the partition of the Country. He did his part as the leader of the West Pakistani people. To blame him for the civil war in Bangladesh isnt right either. As a matter of fact when the Army operation started in Dacca, Bhutto was still there.The third Islamic Summit conference in 1974 was a step in the right direction. I think it raised the hopes of many to a possible Islamic confederation or an Alliance ... Had Bhutto lived we would see a different Islamic World today...... Jiye Bhutto!

Sigalph

I will love to have you as the High commissioner :) ... It will take a long time before I do become the PM though.

-Yasser

RE: FerozK Reply# 19

Good rebuttal but not good enough. There is a fundamental difference between the situations in Germany and in united Pakistan. Germany, at the time of holocaust, was geographically one unit whereas Pakistan was geographically a bifurcated entity. Both parts were separated by 3,000 KM of enemy territory. If a German claims that he was ignorant about what happened to his Jewish neighbor he is obviously lying. Similarly, Bosnia and Serbia was geographically one unit. Playing dumb will not help a Serb or a Bosnian for that matter. Can we say the same thing for the people of West Pakistan?

Pakistani media has always been under strict censorship since its birth. The words ``terrorist`` and ``terrorism`` were not in vogue yet. The equivalent terms were ``Garbar`` (trouble) for terrorism, ``Samaj Dushman Anasir`` i.e. ``Anti-social Elements`` for terrorist, and ``Ghair Mulki agent`` i.e. ``Foreign Agents`` (which were presumed to be Indians by default). All that people knew was that, some foreign agents in collusion with local anti-social elements were creating trouble in East Pakistan, and Government of Pakistan was doing their best to restore order.

However, some people in the media who were bold enough and had an access to the foreign news sources did protest and summary military courts abruptly punished them. One of the examples is, journalist and writer, Ahmad Saleem, author of the book ``Hamood ur Rehman Commission Report- Generals and Politicians``, who was imprisoned, fined, and sentenced to be beaten with lashes. There are many other journalists who were similarly punished for raising their voices. In the presence of censorship those dissidents had either no contact with masses or it was very limited. It was a common practice in those days to brand any dissident as a ``Surkha`` or a ``communist``. Pakistanis had lot of reservations about people branded as such if they were not downright disgusted. So anything they used to say was taken with contempt.

I, respectfully disagree with you when you said that soldiers are free to disobey an order if they think it is immoral and illegal and that the law lends a de jure status as such. This might be true in non-combat situations but, whenever, an army is in a combat situation any disobedience is considered treason and mutiny and it is abruptly punished by death through a firing squad. The Nazi trials at the Nuremberg were politically influenced and vengeance was also an element while punishing soldiers and civilian collaborators. An objective analysis of any military organization in the world will tell you that the commanding officer is always responsible for the actions of the lower echelon. That’s the way an army organization is set up.

In my opinion, people who are responsible for this tragedy are West Pakistani Generals and politicians. Those Generals must be tried for treason and acts of genocide. Politicians must be tried for looking the other way, not informing their constituents, treason, and collaboration in the acts of genocide. Hamood ur Rehman Commission Report must be published immediately.

Once again I will say that peace without justice is always short lived.

Re: Urstruly # 21

Nice try to argue a gulf of geographical distence between east and west Pakistan, but that still does not lessen the burden of guilt from West Pakistani shoulders. There were West Pakistanis in the eastern half who knew what was going, so to argue a Dr. Schlutz`s approach: hear no evil, see no evil and think no evil about West Pakistani involvment in east is a non-sequitar. Any act of killing someone is the same, whether it is was done in Bosnia, Germany, Rwanda or in East Pakistan and geography should not be used as an excuse for exculpating one`s guilt.

I will grant you the argument on the Pakistani media being spoon fed by the spin doctors in Islamabad and being ``gagged`` by the officials from reporting the truth of what was happening in the east. Even if the media was helpless, that still does not exeronate Pakistan`s conduct and that is what we are aruging in essence and not so much as who gets to ``face the music``.

Again, Urstrully, you are very clever in using symantics to confuse the situation and scatter the facts into a diffusion of discontected arguments. There is a marked difference between a combat sitation and ``wasting`` civilians and a soldier will know instinctivily where the line is between combat and a simple murder. The professionalism of an army is often reflected in its fire discipline and if the Pak Army was shooting civilians, then what does it say about its insititutional sense of discipline?

I agree with you, but the generals and other ranks of the Pak Army, who were responsible for their acts in the sordid drama of 1971, will never be tried in an impartial court and will never be held accountable as long as they draw breath. As to the Hamood ur Rehman, it does not exist in its orginal sense and whatever is left will only cast a pale of doubt on the whole situation without clearifying anything.

Whatever the cause or the reason or whatever the arguments might be, Pakistan still owes an apology to the people of Bangladesh for its misdeeds in 1971 and nothing is going to change that and the sooner the Pakistani nation accepts its mea culpa and reconciles with its former countrymen, the better it will be for all concerned.

It is really shameful to die with a guilty conscience.

Ciao!

Re: ylh #20

Sorry, to say this but Bhutto was no saint. I am glad that the three main culprits in the East Pakistan saga, i.e Bhutto, Mujib and Indira met their well deserved ugly ends! . Not only did they die a horrific un-natural death, but also they were unable to leave a legacy . All their sons died an unnatural death too!!! Could this be a punishment for the crimes they committed???

In response to Urstruly (Reply # 21)

Dear Urstruly:

I am once again in agreement with the bulk of your post. Please explain: What was the role of the bureaucracy in the fall of East Pakistan? Why the Generals be tried for ``treason`` (in addition to genocide)?

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

RE: FerozK , Reply # 22

I think I have failed to stress the point that I am trying to make since my first post. The point is that apologies will do no good unless justice is done first. Apologists may cry their heart out and GOP may apologize with or without consent of people of West Pakistan, it will still make no difference. Consider the working of ``Truth and Reconciliation Commission`` of South Africa. This commission is working on principled grounds, i.e. find the truth first and then reconcile. It doesn’t and it cannot work the other way around.

After reading your replies am I correct to assume that Bengalis are ready to own up to what they did to West Pakistanis and Non-Bengalis before the army action started? Am I also correct to assume that they will accept the responsibility of keeping their non-Bengali population in concentration camps since 1971 while their properties were confiscated by the power invested by the constitution of Bangladesh?

I have said it before and will say it again ``Peace without justice is unjust``.

Sigalph 235 Reply#18

Thank you very much for this cool headed post. Just to let you know that Urdu is not a language of West Pakistan either. At the time of Independence, there were 16 major languages spoken in W.Pakistan and Urdu was not one of them. Urdu is principally a language of North East India. When people migrated from that part of India after independence into West Pakistan, (presently distiguish themselves as Mohajir), they created this new language group.During Mughal rule this language was supported in India and acquired a semi-official status, since it was understood widely accross this gigantic country.

When Urdu was proposed and adopetd as a national language it was assumed that it will be a common language replacing english since it was understood all over new country. The idea was theoretically correct that it will bring people of this multilingual society closer and culminate any prejudices based on language, provincialism, and race. It was not intended to be a symbol of hegemony of West over East. It could not be. Common sense supports the logic if not clouded by prejudice.

Could someone, who was an adult in 1971 and saw the whole situation first hand in W. Pakistan, comment on the following points related to E/W Pakistan in 1971:

what exactly was going on in W. Pakistan

what he/she thought was going on in E. Pakistan

what he/she and the general population of W. Pakistan did to protest against (or support) what was going on in E. Pakistan

if he/she did nothing or supported the W. Pakistan actions in E. Pakistan, then does he/she feel somewhat guilty and responsible

Replies will be greatly appreciated. First hand information is the best information.

In response to Urstruly (Reply # 26)

Dear Urstruly:

Although at one level one could agree with you that “. . . Urdu is not a language of West Pakistan . . . . ,” it is definitely incorrect and misleading to treat it as a language of North East India only. Before the partition of India, there were at least four major schools/centers of Urdu language/literature. These were: Delhi, Lucknow, Hyderabad (Deccan), and Lahore. In those days, the educated parents in the Punjab (currently in Pakistan) preferred to even talk to their children in Urdu (not that they did not speak Punjabi). After the partition, the state power was virtually controlled by the Urdu speaking elite of both Punjabi and so-called Mohajir stock. The ruling elite in Pakistan accepted Urdu as the national language of Pakistan under the belief that each nation-state must have one national language. They thought that the “two wings could be held together only if there were one language and one culture between them” (Rounaq Jahan, 1972: 37). Trouble started when some people started questioning the logic of this assimilationist policy, and Jinnah reacted in his Dhakka speech in the following words: “. . . let me make it very clear to you that the State Language of Pakistan is going to be Urdu and no other language. Anyone who tries to mislead you is really the enemy of Pakistan. Without one State Language, no Nation can remain tied up solidly together and function” (quoted in Jahan: 37). How right and wrong was the founder of our beloved country!

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

sigalph235 #1 and #18:

--This ‘thank you’ meant something special for me. I often wonder what happened to Sadia. Hope she is happy and healthy.


fairdinkum #3 and #4:

---Moucho gracias my Aussie fairdinkum! Khuda tumhaiN bhi khush rakhay!


Urstruly #5:

Thanks for your comments. Your disagreement is noted. Whether I have failed or succeeded only Mother Time can tell. This was a personal statement. And I made it very clear.

You say, “Between March 1, when Awami League decided to go beyond point of no return, and March 26, when army action started, well over 100,000 WPs, Biharis, and pro-Pakistan Bengalis were killed by Muktee Bahni, Awami League, mutineers of East Bengal Regiment and East Pakistan Rifles. During this period the horrible crimes committed against non-Bengalis are a blot on the pages of history of humanity.”

If a woman is continuously molested and sometime during the prolonged molestation she plucks up enough courage to slap the assailant, the assailant cannot complain in the court of public opinion about slaps or blows received. To oversimplify, this is how one may see the events between March 1 and 26.

You say, “Any peace without justice is short lived.” I agree. Though seeking justice is not the end in itself. It should also be followed with reconciliation with the inner self, and with the outer self. Time is slipping away for any meaningful trials for this reconciliation.

regards, and yes, yours truly, too

temporal

bahmad #6:

There are two ways of looking at this. Legally, uninvolved common citizens can perhaps deny any responsibility. But morally they cannot, They should not. Idealism notwithstanding, we should own up to our collective faults. This was an attempt in that direction.


Ylh #7:

You say, “WE COLLECTIVELY NEED TO SAY SORRY !!!!!!!”

Hopefully some day we will. Till such time individual apologies and expressions of remorse should continue to keep the flame of moral indignation burning.


Ras #9:

What irony!

The Biharis had the courage of their convictions. We are remiss on that count.
They are ours to accept! It is ‘us’ who have no spine!

I remember Zia collected millions to settle them in the West. Perhaps Ijaz’s inheritance?


regards,

t

SameerJB #10

Well said, Sameer, well said, “temporal: a very good attempt to reconcile with the ugly, pathetic, blood-soaked and, for some, nostalgic past, using pen to make a bridge over the murky waters of the river of hate, misunderstanding, exploitation, discrimination,...........”


Tibor #11:

Good question. If you mean the people then the answer will get bogged down in the usual generalities. Some do, some don’t and others are apathetic.


kidwai #14:

Agree that the reasons for this tragedy should be studied. Reality has to be faced and lessons learned not to be repeated again.


Akbar #16:

Extremely foreboding words. “I would just pray that we learn from our mistakes and not to repeat the same mistakes again .....” Alas, we don’t seem to have acknowledged any lessons and may be doomed to repeat the errors yet again.xxxx

rgds,

t

Manail #17:

Thank you for your kind words. Hope the pain in the raw nerve-ending always acts as a reminder.


Feroz #19:

Feroz thank you for the eloquent expression of support.

rgds

t

Kidwai

I never said Zulfikar Ali Bhutto was a saint... yes he made mistakes ... he was human .. but to blame him completely for East Pakistan is wrong..

by blaming individuals you are just shirking the blame ... one could easily point fingers at even Quaid e Azam then for making Urdu the national language unilaterally .... but individuals are not to blame .... the whole nation is to blame .... not just the Army ...

As for Bhutto give him credit for what he did ...

if I still need to spell out for you all his great achievements for the mother land ... then I am sorry to say but you sadly dont know enough about Pakistan and its History .... Bhutto was our greatest leader after the great Quaid e Azam ....

and believe me I am not from the Peoples` Party ..

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Jinnah zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

-Yasser Hamdani

Some months ago, I posted on a different board on Chowk an eyewitness account of the atrocities in Dacca by a British journalist who managed to evade capture and deportation by the Pak army. That post described the systematic targeting of university professors, students and Hindus by the Pak army which was used as an instrument of genocide.

Mujibur Rahman asked that he, as the leader of the largest party in the National Assembly, be allowed to form the next government. Yahya Khan, simple soldier that he was, thought this was what democracy meant and readily agreed. He made the mistake of not taking into account politics, which is distinctly different from democracy. Bhutto, who had backstabbed Ayub Khan in the 1965 Indo-Pak war and who had been waiting to become the Prime Minister of Pakistan, saw his opportunity slip away for ever. Thus his threat to break the legs of ant West Pakistan MNA who would dare attend the meeting of the National Assembly.

The people of East Bengal had seen the callous indifference of their national government in its non-response to the cyclone that killed hundreds of thousands and flooded most of the country. They now experienced, starting in March 1971, another disaster, this time cause by the unscrupulous politicians of West Pakistan.

Let no one here attempt to blame the poor long-suffering people of Bangladesh or try to justify the actions of the Pak army. I am not surprised that these same people, who hold Bhutto in such high regard and can see no wrong as far as the Pak army is concerned, are ready to shed copious tears for the plight of the Kashmiris.

Let it not be forgotten that no matter what political differences might exist between Bangladesh and India, India will remain the one place of refuge for Bangladeshis. This is as much a matter of geography as one of cultural and linguistic affinity. Just as has been the case with the refugees from Tibet (though ethnically different from Indians) or Sri Lanka.

RE: bahmad Reply # 28 and 24

Dear bahmad!

As a matter of fact both of us are describing one and the same fact, about Urdu, only differently. I was trying to be brief when I wrote about Urdu not being a language of West Pakistan, whereas, I, actually, meant Urdu not being a mother tongue. There is no contest that Urdu was widely spoken and understood all over united India. Thanks for elaborating the point.

Your question about role of bureaucracy in the fall of EP is very important. It is extremely difficult to discuss this important aspect in these brief posts and still do justice with the subject. No matter how much people hate it, a strong and disciplined bureaucracy is always required to run a country. An illiterate (or literate) political activist, no matter how patriotic, cannot perform the functions of a bureaucrat. Even in most democratic societies a well-disciplined bureaucracy is required to streamline and discipline affairs of the state. A bureaucracy under democracy is usually under more restraint than a non-democratic government (Pak being exceptions to this rule).

When Pakistan came into being it did not have a centralized bureaucracy (that being in Delhi). Pakistan had to start from the scratch. The new centralized bureaucracy thus constituted, was predominantly of Urdu speaking migrants or some West Punjabis that used to be a part of Indian Civil Services ICS. These new bureaucrats performed a commendable job when people in India used to bet literally that Pakistan would collapse any day. Especially when India refused to share the treasury with Pakistan, and Gandhi had to go on a hunger strike, to force Indian Government to release Pakistan`s share, the new Pakistani bureaucrats exhibited patriotism that is unprecedented.

The problems started when the hype of patriotism settled down and the allotments of properties to the new immigrants started. The indigenous population was under an impression that the properties left by the migrants to India will be distributed among them. They were quite dismayed to find out that they would get nothing but only the new migrants would. In West Punjab it didn’t come as a ``shock`` since most of the bureaucracy as well as migrants were Punjabi speaking, whereas, in Sindh and in East Pakistan the situation was conceived differently. Indigenous people were looking at some strangers who were distributing ``property and wealth`` (I do not want to use a strong word) among ``themselves`` since migrants and bureaucracy were both Urdu speaking.

Most of the appointed public officials were either former ICSs or they were members of Muslim League who had no experience in holding an office. In short, there was no one to discipline the bureaucracy. Absolute power corrupted the bureaucracy absolutely. They started treating their fellow human beings worst than dogs. That in turn created more loathing between bureaucracy and general public. Especially, in EP and in Sindh people became contemptuous to any action, right or wrong, by bureaucracy. Later when educated members from indigenous population started entering bureaucracy, a culture of its own had already been established.

The history of feelings of contempt between Urdu Speaking Biharis and Bengalis go beyond partition right into Mughal era. Biharis, though a minority, always remained an educated elite in Bengal since then. Brits never trusted Bengalis probably because Bengalis were the first to oppose British expansionism. Brits declared Bengalis a Non-martial race, thus closing doors to serve in armed forces, and always preferred Biharis as civil servants to Bengalis.

At the time of partition, when East Bengalis started seeing a new wave of Biharis coming into their new country the historic prejudices flared up. The reason to oppose Urdu becoming a national language has a background in this scenario. The central (federal) bureaucracy had its headquarters first in Karachi and then in Islamabad and it was also predominantly Urdu speaking. The key to understand the metamorphosis of anti-Urdu/Bihari sentiment into anti-WP/Punjabi sentiment lies in this background. It also explains how people in EP started perceiving bureaucracy as a tool of oppression of WP.



So bahmad!

If you are an (ultra)-nationalist and know how to play with people`s prejudices (real or imaginary), you can complete the rest of the story.

In response to temporal (Reply # 30)

Dear Temporal:

Of course, there are several ways of looking at the problem at hand. I distinguish between asking for an unconditional personal apology and expressing utmost sorrow over the bloodshed of the people (innocent or otherwise). I prefer the latter course, because I don’t want to provide legitimacy to a state that fails to recognize/ respect the basic human and citizenship rights of its people. I think, our positions are not very different. It is just a matter of emphasis and strategy.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Once more for old times sake....

Bangladesh Memories

It should feel like just another December day but
For some of us it makes 27 years with
A distant thought, much pain, it overwhelms even now
Bengal I still remember your scents, the richness and memories
Of the friends that one hoped to never leave so soon in life
Yet today as the memory cells struggle to revive
Just the names of people, and the hushed conversations in old Dacca
where
We discussed the Beatles, ideals, preventing oppression and
The passion for politics, and a love of the life we shared
Spent catching never ending numbers of ``Puti`` or ``Ruhi`` fish,
Golden sunsets spent sitting on the shores of Dhanmondi lake with
The peaceful haunting sounds of ``Bansari`` flutes playing.

But the dreams of youth just could not last long
Like the Lychee seasons the sweetness came and was gone
As Lives were invaded by murder and death because
People who kill could not understand the concept of such a peace and
Still offer strange excuses for having carried out orders for ``our`` sake
as if
The parting of ways with the humiliation of surrender wasn`t enough
Not forgetting that Pakistan was and is the country of our love but
Since there is yet no turning back the clock on such a partition of the
hearts
Past the quarter century mark of a much lesser known Asian holocaust
A strange sadness forces this abstraction, this writing again today
To commemorate the painful and blood soaked birth of Bangladesh
Because the memories of eating fresh ``Cham Cham`` sweets in Savar
Mingle with the smell of death and gunpowder, yes the gunpowder
everywhere
And all the bridges we hoped to build between us still nowhere
Waiting for a sincere apology to start the healing of many heavy hearts.


Ras H. Siddiqui


This was rewritten with the
hope that the people of both Bangladesh and Pakistan will find peace,
harmony and brotherhood in their future. RHS

PS:
For those who want to seek ispiration please
check out:

http://www.globalfront.com/nazrul/

re Temporal

You are most welcome. Aap ka kalaam, sar aankhon par.

As for those who have criticised the treatment of Biharis, I share your concern. As a committed capitalist, I am very leery of nationalising property, no matter what the reasons are. I will point out though, that the legal context in which the properties of the Biharis were taken over by the Bangladesh government is very similar to the post 1947 era. In fact, the very followed was the Vested Property Act which was used after Partition too.

On a side note, please note that the anti-Pakistan rhetoric often emnating from official circles in Dhaka is the voice of the pro-India, pro-Communist Awami League which is led by the daughter of Mujib(please save me the ``Bangaandhu`` nonsense). That party is in power with a 34 % popular vote and some shrewd parliamentary skullduggery. If the Awami League could help it, it will probably have us believe that Mujib was a prophet of God who sigle-handedly created Bangladesh. History knows that while Bangladesh, her nascent army, and ordinary citizens were fighting a brutal Occupation, Mujib was ensconed in a comfortable guest-house in `Pindi while his Awami League buddies were enjoying the nighlife of Calcutta Sharif.

gymnosophist #34: ``. I am not surprised that these same people, who hold Bhutto in such high regard and can see no wrong as far as the Pak army is concerned, are ready to shed copious tears for the plight of the Kashmiris``

I am quite surprised to read your reply. I think almost every reply to this article accepts the fact that West Pakistan did not accept E. Pakistan`s right to self-determination, and that on the whole West Pakistan is to blame. Infact the article itself accepts this fact, and tries to apologizes for it. This is indicated by a reply from a Bangladeshi contributor:

sigalph235 #1:

There are so many things I want to and can say. And yet, cannot. So let me just say

Thank you.``

The Pakistanis are accepting their mistakes, the Bangladeshi(s) are acknowleding this acceptance. I don`t see how you could have missed that. Instead of trying to find faults in this, you should appreciate it.

Since you have mentioned Kashmir, I think a few comments needs to be made: The accpetance of the Pakistanis of their mistakes (and their subsequent apologies) w.r.t E. Pakistan is actually a refreshing change from the comments I have seen from Indians regarding Kashmir. An overwhelming number of the Pakistani replies (including mine) have stated that Pakistan was responsible for the tragedy of 1971. The Pakistani repliers here seem to have accepted this unconditionally. The only point that is being debated is which agencies within Pakistan were responsible to what degree, and also what the role of Indian and Bengali groups was in this whole scenario.

Your equating of this with Kashmir is completely incorrect. The replies on this thread accept the responsibility of Pakistan in general, and not giving any excuses for it. Nor are they trying to justify Pakistan`s actions. They are trying to decide which group within Pakistan deserves which portion of the blame. Some are arguing it was Bhutto; others blame the Army; some like me blame the whole population in general. So a person defending Bhutto may blame the army. A person defending the army may blame Bhutto, etc. But everyone is accepting the fact that Pakistan was the wrongdoer.

My own reply #2: ``One point: I think it is somewhat cowardly of Pakistanis to blame only the military for for what occurred in 1971. Military excesses are an extension of politic excesses, and politic excesses are an extension of the desires of the general population (even during Martial Law). The primary blame should fall upon the people of Pakistan in general, both military and civilian.``

This is completely different from India`s stance on Kashmir. In case of Kashmir, Indians are not willing to unconditionally accept the fact that India is the country that is wrongfully harming and committing human rights violations against the Kashmiris. Infact most Indians are either silent about it, or attempt to partially or completely blame the Kashmiris. Once Indians accept that they are in the wrong vis-a-vis Kashmiris, then they can decide amongst themselves which Indian agency should accept most of the blame, in a similar debate to the one occuring on this thread.

I have yet to see an article like this one apologizing for India`s actions against the Kashmiris from anyone from India. Hopefully we will see one soon (perhaps you could initiate one).

umairr,

heh heh...! didn`t expect you would give me an opportunity so soon! as they say - tum sudharogay nahin!!

i am sure gymno is going to respond to you in his own fashion, but let me say this -

I also have yet to see an article like this one apologizing for pakistan`s deplorable actions against the Kashmiris in the form of sending unwelcomed, illiterate, murderous, jihadis (aka `religious volunteers` in umairrspeak) to create mayhem in indian kashmir - from anyone from pakistan. Hopefully we will see one soon (perhaps you could initiate one, though that would be the day when the sun would rise in the west).

Umair .... Bhutto in my eyes was our greatest leader after Jinnah .... yet I dont condone the actions of the Pakistan Army ...

Gymnophist ... when you say Bhutto back stabbed Ayub in the 1965 war ... what do you mean because you are obviously speaking out of your ignorance of History ... out of the Politicians he was the only hero of that war .....doesnt matter if some of you out of certain private griefs or maybe pure stubbourness deny Bhutto his greatness ... he lives in the heart of millions ... he is our true martyr ... and our only true hero ... a worthy Caesar ... remember history considers slaying of Caesar a mistake no matter how noble Brutus might have been ... a Cassius always emerges more powerful, stronger ....

WHo is our Marc Antony... who is our Augustus? ...

Pakistanis are waiting and hoping !

-Pakistan Zindabad

-Quaid e Azam Jinnah Zindabad

-Jiye Bhutto

-Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

On Chowk, I see many posts that fail to provide a good sense of Pakistani history. For a reasonable introduction to the causes for the separation of East Pakistan, please refer to Khalid Bin Sayeed`s Politics in Pakistan (Chapter 4). Professor Sayeed is a well respected Pakistani political scientist/historian who currently resides in Canada.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

temporal:

Sorry for this late reaction, away in different boards. I guess, if I consider myself still a part of that disturbing time (not as an Indian, but as an east Pakistani), accept my heart felt thanks for your apology. But for the hindus, I am not sure who should apologize, since after a few days of initial indiscriminate carnage, it were the Hindus who took the most beating. My maternal grandparents house along with other hindus in Mymensingh`s Bajitpur area were burnt down without any problem to the muslim neighbours. How did the Pak army know which one to fire?

Sometimes I feel that let bygones be bygones, but people like Sigalph light the fire again. It is the disguise, when it comes of, hurts you the most! I think I need to resolve this in order to have some peace in my mind. And that is why I wrote this in Chowk.

How I wish there was no religion in this world. Solitude, I agree with 100 percent, let open the fountain of love. That is why India should stay integrated, no more bloody partition based on religion. It does not help, another 50 years, some other group wants to secede.

Regards

Cheraym

Re: Urstrully # 25

Thanks for stressing the point and yes, on that score I am in complete agreement with you. However, where I differ from you is on the quid pro quo concerning the act of reconciliation. My orginal agrument still remains valid, because we need to apologise for our conduct irrespective of how the Bangladeshis reciprocate towards our apology.

To me it does not matter, nor does it hold any interest for me whether the Bangladeshis apologise or not, because we, Pakistanis, should be more concerned about our own conduct than what others might or might not do! To borrow a phrase from Spike Lee, ``do the right thing``. Pakistan should make an unconditional apology to the people of Bangladesh and let them worry about their course of action in regards to our apology.

It is time we stopped making excuses and owned up to our sorid past.

Ciao!

Yasser,

I don`t deny the fact that Bhutto did make a significant contribution to Pakistan. But his actions regarding East Pakistan cannot be forgiven. What makes a good leader??? Can his `wrong` actions be forgiven ?? Bhutto played a major part in the East Pkaistan trgaedy, a tragedy which could have been avoided. At the end of the day, it all comes down to the `kursi`. This has been the tragedy with pakistan. No leader has been willing to compromise his/her `power chair`, even if it is for the good of Pakistan.

cheraym #43:

You say, “But for the hindus, I am not sure who should apologize, since after a few days of initial indiscriminate carnage, it were the Hindus who took the most beating.” Loss of life is loss of life. Personally, I would own up till the fall/liberation of Dacca. But that is no consolation for the loss of dear ones!

When you say, “How I wish there was no religion in this world....” you are expressing your ire and disgust at what we see around ---- the murders, mayhem, destruction caused in the name of some distant deity or the other.

I am not sure doing away with religion is a panacea.

Perhaps if we all exercise moderation in our set of beliefs this world could be a better place.
To quote Mahajirzadeh, “Pehlay insaan, phir Muslaman.”

love

t

RE: FerozK # 44 and Temporal # 29

Dear FerozK and Temporal,

I wish the matter were as simple as a molested woman fighting back. On the contrary we are talking about genocide and breaking of a union that was holier only next to God. I once again apologize for not elaborating my point. It will be really be myopic of someone to think that my bone of contention with Bengalis is that since they committed the act of genocide first so they should apologize first.

Aristotle once said that if you want to understand the deeds try to understand the motives first. Allow me to rephrase another clichéd saying that only lesson that history teaches us is that no one learns from it.. One who doesn’t learn from history is doomed to repeat it.

May I ask you gentlemen (or ladies?) how the current situation in Karachi, in particular, and in Sindh in general, any different from the situation in East Pakistan.

May I ask how the acts of genocide in Karachi and Hyderabad, in late 80`s and early `90s, were any different from EP.

May I ask what have we done to resolve language issues after learning lessons from the E.P.

May I ask how the present day bureaucracy and establishment any different from that of united Pakistan?

Have we ever tried to explore what parts of Bengali prejudices were real, what was imaginary and what was influenced by propaganda?

Have we tried to explore if the highways of Islamabad really smelled like jute and blood of Bengalis.

Have we asked Bengalis what did an ordinary West Pakistani do to deserve a punishment like that and what drove them to do that? Was their motivation based on prejudice or a real threat?

Have we asked Bengalis what made them think that West Pakistanis were not in the same boat with them?

Can we ask the great crusaders and protectors of language why the phrase ``remember East Pakistan`` not a slang so far, in Urdu,, as ``remember Alamo`` is an American slang.

Can we try, people responsible for this incident, in public forums (courts) like this one without making scapegoats out of some and making rest sacrificial lambs?

Can we slaughter the most sacred cows with our knives of objectivity?

Gentlemen!

We are the generation who was denied the right to think freely and speak freely. We were denied the right to know. The same people are denying the same rights to our successor generations. Lets tell them unequivocally and unanimously that they cannot play those games with us anymore. But before telling them that, lets ask this question from ourselves- Internet and speaker forums have freed our tongues but has it freed our minds?

In response to Urstruly (Reply # 47)

Dear Urstruly:

Your statement: ``It will be really be myopic of someone to think that my bone of contention with Bengalis is that since they committed the act of genocide first so they should apologize first.``

Comment: I will reiterate my position where I make a distinction between the people and the state apparatus (and the ruling elite). If the state of Pakistan was engaged in (or even indifferent to) a genocide (which I tend to believe that it was), then the apology must come from the state as the job of a state is to protect the fundamental rights of its citizens. I agree with Ferozk that we should look at our transgressions, and let others to realize their own guilt/foul play.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Ref Urstruly #: 47

You asked ``Have we asked Bengalis what made them think that West Pakistanis were not in the same boat with them?``

Simple. You guys were on dry land while the East Bengalis were clutching at anything that floated by after the hurricane of 1970. That proved to the Easterners that the West Pakistanis wouldn`t share anything with them.

YLH, can you justify Bhutto`s statement that he would break the legs of the MNAs who dared to attend the opening session of the National Assembly?

About Bhutto stabbing Ayub Khan in the back over the 1965 war, it is Bhutto who urged Operation Gibraltar on a skeptical Ayub Khan and later used the failure of the war in his populist campaign during the elections.

Can we ask the great crusaders and protectors of language why the phrase ``remember East Pakistan`` not a slang so far, in Urdu,, as ``remember Alamo`` is an American slang.

Can we try, people responsible for this incident, in public forums (courts) like this one without making scapegoats out of some and making rest sacrificial lambs?

Can we slaughter the most sacred cows with our knives of objectivity?

Gentlemen!

We are the generation who was denied the right to think freely and speak freely. We were denied the right to know. The same people are denying the same rights to our successor generations. Lets tell them unequivocally and unanimously that they cannot play those games with us anymore. But before telling them that, lets ask this question from ourselves- Internet and speaker forums have freed our tongues but has it freed our minds?

re the gentleman who wrote

``Sometimes I feel that let bygones be bygones, but people like Sigalph light the fire again.``

I am sorry that I am not a firefighter. But never have I been disrespectful to anybody`s beliefs and values. If a sublimely held love for land and people is lighting fires, then I am pretty guilty. I have difficulty understanding why some Indians (and I say Indians rather than Benaglis) hold me personally responsible for the ill-deeds of the Pakistan Army in 1971 while others find me a target for accusations involving Bengali atrocities towards non-Bengalis. Is it because some Pakistanis and Indians have never given up on being the two mini superpowers in their dreams? I wasn`t around in 1971 to create any carnage; my family roots are to be found not only in Dhaka today, but in Karachi, Delhi, and, yes, Murshidabad. What makes some of you think that I am ill-disposed towards Indians or Pakistanis? A love for Bengali doesn`t mean that.

On a separate note, Ras Sahib, your reflections on Bengal always make me wonder. Few Bengalis themselves can match the love, passion, and feeling you have for the land. I cannot myself ever so vividly describe the beauty of the mand and people as so you so effortlessly. What else can I say? I am without words when I read yours!

Gymnophist ....

Let us be fair to everyone ....Operation Gibralter continues till this day ... can you deny that? ANy self respecting Pakistani worth his salt will tell you that it a ``Bellum Justum`` ... what do you suggest we dont do anything about Kashmir ?????

Like Bhutto said ... we have fought a war for a 1000 years in the subcontinent and we will fight one for a 1000 years if necessary for our war is not of oppression and avarice but against it .....

if the freedom struggle for Bangladesh was right then you cant deny that the freedom struggle of Kashmir is also right ... your stubbourness baffles me .... Was it wrong of Bhutto to urge on the operation Gibralter ... if it was so then every freedom struggle in the world is wrong ... every liberation effort is wrong ....

and then you claim that we lost the war ???? not only did we stem the massive invasion on the Punjab front but ours was clearly the victory on ground and in the air .... in the air battle we clearly emerged as the victors ... even the Indians accept that ... however we did lose the war because ... a weak hearted cowardly Field Marshall was in charge ... a weak hearted cowardly Field Marshall who till this day remains a ``kala dhubba`` on the record of our valiant forces .... he went to Tashkent and made peace there ....clearly one can see why Bhutto and the establishment fell apart after that ........

Gymnophist you seem to have something personal against the man ... I wonder what ........

to accuse Bhutto of setting up the 1965 war to gain power is utterly ridiculous ... interesting why still late 1965 Bhutto was urging Ayub to go to war again ... 1965 could have been a glorious chapter in our history for the victory belongs to the people of Pakistan and their valiant forces ... defeat belongs to Ayub Khan alone ... for his cowardly act in Tashkent !!!!!!!!!

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Jinnah Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

Gymnophist ....

Let us be fair to everyone ....Operation Gibralter continues till this day ... can you deny that? ANy self respecting Pakistani worth his salt will tell you that it a ``Bellum Justum`` ... what do you suggest we dont do anything about Kashmir ?????

Like Bhutto said ... we have fought a war for a 1000 years in the subcontinent and we will fight one for a 1000 years if necessary for our war is not of oppression and avarice but against it .....

if the freedom struggle for Bangladesh was right then you cant deny that the freedom struggle of Kashmir is also right ... your stubbourness baffles me .... Was it wrong of Bhutto to urge on the operation Gibralter ... if it was so then every freedom struggle in the world is wrong ... every liberation effort is wrong ....

and then you claim that we lost the war ???? not only did we stem the massive invasion on the Punjab front but ours was clearly the victory on ground and in the air .... in the air battle we clearly emerged as the victors ... even the Indians accept that ... however we did lose the war because ... a weak hearted cowardly Field Marshall was in charge ... a weak hearted cowardly Field Marshall who till this day remains a ``kala dhubba`` on the record of our valiant forces .... he went to Tashkent and made peace there ....clearly one can see why Bhutto and the establishment fell apart after that ........

Gymnophist you seem to have something personal against the man ... I wonder what ........

to accuse Bhutto of setting up the 1965 war to gain power is utterly ridiculous ... interesting why still late 1965 Bhutto was urging Ayub to go to war again ... 1965 could have been a glorious chapter in our history for the victory belongs to the people of Pakistan and their valiant forces ... defeat belongs to Ayub Khan alone ... for his cowardly act in Tashkent !!!!!!!!!

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Jinnah Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

Gymnophist

``We are the generation who was denied the right to think freely and speak freely. We were denied the right to know. The same people are denying the same rights to our successor generations. Lets tell them unequivocally and unanimously that they cannot play those games with us anymore. But before telling them that, lets ask this question from ourselves- Internet and speaker forums have freed our tongues but has it freed our minds?``

Very idealistic ....

I have just one thing to say ``Physician heal thyself`` and this is from a 19 year old, your successor generation.

Gymnophist

``We are the generation who was denied the right to think freely and speak freely. We were denied the right to know. The same people are denying the same rights to our successor generations. Lets tell them unequivocally and unanimously that they cannot play those games with us anymore. But before telling them that, lets ask this question from ourselves- Internet and speaker forums have freed our tongues but has it freed our minds?``

Very idealistic ....

I have just one thing to say ``Physician heal thyself`` and this is from a 19 year old, your successor generation.

Oops!

The words ``Can we try, people responsible for this incident, in public forums (courts) like this one without making scapegoats out of some and making rest sacrificial lambs?

Can we slaughter the most sacred cows with our knives of objectivity?

Gentlemen!

We are the generation who was denied the right to think freely and speak freely. We were denied the right to know. The same people are denying the same rights to our successor generations. Lets tell them unequivocally and unanimously that they cannot play those games with us anymore. But before telling them that, lets ask this question from ourselves- Internet and speaker forums have freed our tongues but has it freed our minds?`` were not mine. I was cutting and pasting in trying to respond and forgot to re-check my post.

Please flame the original author for those words ;-)

Or, the original author could consider it a flame directed at him and choose to respond as he pleases ;-)

Re: yhl # 52

Yhl, the correct term is ``jus bellum``; a just war, and it was the creation of the Vatican to lend legitimacy on the crusades and find a rationale for the Christian knights to feel ``good`` about violating one of the ten commandments!

As to ZAB, it was the myth of Bhutto as the defender of Pakistani virtues that gave us Benazir Bhutto and like her father, she too selfishly served Pakistan!! (folks, I am being really, really sarcastic on this)

Re: Urstrully # 47

Enough! No more excuses!!

I still stand by my last post and I still feel, like bahmad said, we should apologise for our misdeeds.

As to the genocide in Sindh, why is that Bangldeshis` fault and why should it be an excuse to avoid our mea culpa in East Pakistan?

That is our problem that our government is not representive of our interests and it should not be held as an excuse for delaying our apology to Bangladesh.

Urstrully, if you do not like Pakistan to apoligise to Bangladesh, admit it honestly and freely and stop hiding behind the aprons of a guilty conscience!

Ciao!

re ylh

my friend, calling the late Field Marshal Ayub Khan a coward is perhaps stepping over the line. For obvious reasons I am no fan of Ayub. Yet, it takes more than a ``coward`` to become a decorated war hero of the British Army in WW II. For all his faults, let us not forget that his speech on 6 September 1965 about ``provoking a sleeping tiger`` fired up a nation that was caught off guard by the treacherous invasion of its mighty neighbour. If, as you say, Pakistan won the war, some credit must go to the Commander-in-Chief, don`t you think?

I certainly don`t share your adoration or adulation for ZA Bhutto. With all due respect, I have little sympathy for socialists. That said, the late ZAB was one of of the most cultured and educated men ever to be a leader in Pakistan. A phenomenally astute Foreign Minister, his speech to the UNGA on Kashmir in 1965 or 1966 is a masterpiece of eloquence. With the exception of Sir Zafrullah Khan, ZAB was probably Pakistan`s ablest Foreign Minister. When you see the off-the-street leaders today, you cannot but nostalgise about the days when Berkley and Oxford educated men led countries.

RE: YLH and various others.

“MASHRIQI PAKISTAN JAANAY WAALAY MNAs KI TAANGAIN TORR DI JAINGI”

Bhutto is often accused of saying these words and it is touted that it resulted in the fall of EP. First time those words were reported on March 18, as a headline, in the daily Azad, Lahore, after Bhutto’s speech of March 14, 1971 at Nishtar Park.

Mr. Ahmad Saleem author of the book, “Hamood-ur-Rehman Commission Report-Generals & Politicians”, was one of the audiences at Nishtar Park. He has given us an account of Bhutto’s exact words with a background. It will be naïve of someone to think that Bhutto uttered those words without any motivation.

In one of his public speeches, on February 28th, Bhutto demanded to postpone the first session of Legislative Assembly, that was scheduled for March 3rd . (Bhutto is also crucified for this demand). The reason Bhutto demanded for this postponement is that Yehya, had already made a secret pact with Mujib to change the status of the federation into a confederation. Several politicians, on both sides, and Generals were aware and a party to this pact. According to this pact Yehya would have been appointed as a President of Confederation for the next 15 years and it also called for a reduction in army. The last part was an unconditional demand from Mujib. A negligible minority of Generals was opposed to this last part. However, Bhutto was unequivocally opposed to the whole idea of Confederation. Let’s not give Bhutto and those minority of Generals, the benefit of doubt of being patriotic, yet, and leave it to the future historian.

Yehya and Mujib could not go ahead with this plan with a Presidential Ordinance. They could not go ahead with this plan through a legislative assembly either, unless, leader of opposition (Bhutto) was present in the legislature, thus, satisfying the requirement of 3/4 votes for this kind of legislature. The frustration of Generals, Mujib, and Yehya is evident from the label “Sayasee Haramzada (political b * *tard)” that was coined on Bhutto.

Bhutto rightfully feared that, powers-that-be, may try to buy members of the opposition party, thus, effectively, removing him from the political scene. There was no law to deal with floor-crossing in those days. That is when Bhutto warned those MNAs of the opposition party in the same exact words as below:

“Jo mimbran-e-assembly Dhaka jaain, who yaktarfa ticket par jain. Waapis aa kar who kis Taang (moaqqaf) par kharray hon gay”.

What he meant was, how would the members face their constituents when they would come back from Dhaka.

Ferozek

Yes it was Bhutto`s popularity that got Benazir into power but ZAB earned his popularity ... and you cant deny him that ... then again you have the right to your own opinion ...

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Jinnah Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

Ferozek

jus ad bellum I believe would mean Justice in war ...

Bellum Justum means a just war ... I believe that the term St Augustine used was Jus ad Bellum ... yes but Bellum Justum directly translates into

``just war`` ... but then again I can be wrong.

-Yasser Hamdani

Ferozek

jus ad bellum I believe would mean Justice in war ...

Bellum Justum means a just war ... I believe that the term St Augustine used was Jus ad Bellum ... yes but Bellum Justum directly translates into

``just war`` ... but then again I can be wrong.

-Yasser Hamdani

RE: Ferozk, bahmad, Temporal and others

I just have to ask you one thing, do you believe in “Innocent until proven guilty or guilty until proven innocent”. Doesn’t matter eh! It really depends who bears the burden of proof. So may I ask where and when this case was prosecuted?

I know apologies are in vogue at international political scene. Germans are apologizing to Jews, South Africa is apologizing to the victims of apartheid (both blacks & whites, strange eh?), Australians are apologizing to aboriginal, Japanese are apologizing to Koreans? Is that the reason our stomachs are aching and we are itching to apologize to someone so that we may be able to stand among the “civilized” people? I would say what our grandmothers used to say “Kia doosray ka mooNh La