Where did Pakistan go wrong?

I(we) have no choice but to agree with Lalit Mohan. Mr. Jinnah was not a great leader, the proof is that by creating allegedly a SEPARATE COUNTRY FOR MOSLEMS, he, with a stroke of a pen ends the Moslem claim over India, as the home for Millions of Moslems. Now if you are Moslem go to pakistan, and all that was made by Great Moslems Emperors, is gone down the drain and remain only stories of glory of yester years. Secondly, why all of a sdden the call was given that as soon as the British will leave India, the Moslems will loose their Identity and Hindus will By-pass them. For me this glorifies fear and ignorance, andon the other hand it also explains that Moslems were rulers only with the help of British and as soon as they leave, the future of Moslems will be doomed. No man of extra-ordinary senses and perception can walk upon this water of perception. K.L. Gauba writes in his book FRIENDS AND FOES, that on a matter of Shaheed Gunj Mosque, I asked Mr. Jinnah to come to the Mosque and address Moslems, first thing Mr. Jinnah said, Gauba I have never been to a Mosque, next he showed up in three piece suit immaculately pressed. So the Moslems of this region are lost sheeps without land, education and system

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The minority issue

Mohammad A. Zaman, M.D. writes from Raleigh, NC, USA.

A COMMENT: I grew up in a small village in Sylhet, half of which was Hindu. I played with them. I grew up with them. I made friends with them. As I went to college, some of my best friends were Hindus. Durga and Saraswati Puja was just like any other festival to me. But the recent events in Bangladesh as reported by The Daily Star and other newspapers is profoundly disturbing. It is even more disturbing to see the reluctance of our elected government to accept the problem as it exists. Smart solution requires identification of the problem and understanding its intricacies. Without the willingness to accept the problem as a problem, establishing a high profile government commission is nothing but a futile venture. To meet the criteria for general acceptance, the investigation has to be independent ( of government) and transparent.

A FEW THOUGHTS: Even though we share a common cultural heritage, bonded tightly by a common language, a dichotomy got rooted with the introduction of Islam in Bengal. Probably most of the conversion in Islam occurred in the downtrodden and oppressed ``have-nots`` in the lower strata of Hindu society ( I bet my forefather was one of them). As they converted, they reaped the advantage of royal favors at the expense of their previous masters of higher strata. So a deep sense of untoward feeling between the two groups was there to begin with. And it is natural. Then came the British-Raj. With the loss of royal patronage, the Muslim society as a whole remained estranged, while the Hindu intelligentia embraced English. It was a complete reversal of the dice. Economically prosperous, culturally advanced Hindu Babus looked down at the Muslim Mians. Thus, despite a very strong bondage, a deep-seated resentment permeated the Muslim psyche. In Bengal, this possibly got worsened during the Bango-Bhango movement. The point, I am alluding to is simple: `` When economic and social parity supervenes, religion usually becomes a back-burner. The apparent ill feeling between the two groups of the same people, originated largely because of socio-economic reason. If the Hindu society was homogeneous to begin with, my forefather, most likely, would have retained his Sanatan faith. And my name would have been predictably different.`` This deep-seated strain is not going to go away anytime soon. In fact, this dichotomy of our very culture, led to the evolution of two different tributaries of a great cultural might. It is like a twin, though not monozygotic. We have two different names. We look different like two fraternal brothers and/or sisters. But our Mother is the same.

If we consider this basic proposition as an established fact, a lot of apparent difference and inconsistencies can be explained without any misgivings. Being Arabic in origin, my name does not betray my cultural heritage. It only affirms the fact that I am flowing from a different tributary.

AN AFTERTHOUGHT: As I mentioned earlier, akin to a tectonic fault line, there is a natural strain in our national psyche. And some unscrupulous politicians are magnifying this strain with resultant atrocities of volcanic proportion against our own fraternal brothers and sisters. It is time to raise a rational voice that reverberates in every rational soul.

http://server35.hypermart.net/thefridaytimes/news21.htm

The Friday Times

Shandana Minhas

What is it like being a Hindu in Pakistan, you wonder. I find the answer in various things. First, a letter from a Hindu friend dated October 1999. She wrote from college in the States: ``When I first got here, I was already looking forward to the winter break so I could come back to Karachi and see my friends and family. The next break I was a little less excited, the next even less so. And now, I find myself looking for ways to prolong my stay here. Not because I`ve met a man better than someone I might have found in Karachi, but because here I don`t have to wonder how long it is before he plays the religion card and says hey we had a great time I love you madly, but I just don`t think my family... I remember how I felt at realizing that to my friends, though they were my friends, I would always in some way be an outsider. Don`t they realize how cruel that is? Why can`t they see me for who I am and not my religion. I`m not even a particularly religious person!``



The 1991 census estimated the number of religious minorities in Pakistan (assuming Shia+Sunni=Muslim) at around five per cent, out of which 1.51 per cent were Hindu. Representatives of minority groups disagreed at the time and said they were ``underrepresented``. The latest estimates put the number of Hindus in Pakistan at just under three million. The fact that a large percentage of this community resides in rural Sindh where borders are porous, life transitory, and government efficiency a fairy tale ensures an ``estimate`` will remain just that.



A report by lawyer and activist Hina Jillani states that the Hindu tribal communities of Kohlis and Behls ``constitute more than half of the agricultural labour force of Sindh, and are amongst the most oppressed of all haris.`` Their lands have been forcibly occupied by influential landlords, their daughters abducted, forcibly converted and then married off to complete strangers from an alien community. Their economic and religious status conspire to make their lives a favourite repast for the vultures of official apathy and societal intolerance.



What is it like to be a Hindu in Pakistan? The answers come as hints rather than full replies. P.K. Shahani is a prominent Sindhi lawyer. His brother Narayan Shahani has recently been appointed to the security exchange commission of Pakistan. The other Hindu names you hear are Naveen Perwani (snooker player) and Deepak Perwani (self-proclaimed fashion designer). Actually, most people aren`t sure if these people are Hindu or just sound Hindu. There are Hindus in music, Hindus in journalism (especially Sindh), Hindu women walking to work in the streets in their graceful saris. There are middle class Hindus with small homes and Japanese cars. There are Hindu businessmen with recently acquired respectability whose fortunes are based on converting contacts made through intelligent and friendly bootlegging into contracts made in heaven. There are Hindu brat packers, scions of wealthy families who do nothing but party hard. There are banyas in interior Sindh, traders and shopkeepers. There are middle class Hindu Generation X`s. There is a Hindu drummer in the local band Brain Masalla. Hindus are in every strata of society, but somehow they seem to be nowhere at all.



The writer of the letter has since started a process that will allow her to be an American citizen. Had she returned here she would have been a Pakistani biochemist.



Hindus believe a soul should be free to leave this realm of existence unburdened by the weight of its mortality. Some rivers are sacred to the Hindus (the Ganges is said to be like the rippling waves in the hair of a God), water is considered a purifier. The pyre on the banks of a river also emphasise the ephemeral nature of life to those attending it. Samskara, the rite of passage, bids the departed farewell and helps give the bereaved a sense of closure.



The body is prepared by the application of holy ash on the forehead and the recitation of mantras, more orthodox Hindus follow a longer and more rigorous preparation procedure. The procession carrying the body to the pyre is led by the son. As it is laid on its pyre draped with flowers garlands, all observe in silence. When it is burnt down the priest recites prayers over it, the ashes are collected. Ideally, they will be poured into a holy river. After a designated period of mourning during which austerity is practiced in dress, food and behaviour, a ceremony called shraddah is carried out in which prayers are said for the departed and offering made to the poor.



The Hindus believe a soul is born into a body, and when the body dies, the soul passes into a higher or lower being (a man or a rat) according to the karma he has earned. When a soul reaches a state of enlightenment it breaks the cycle of reincarnation and passes back into Brahma, the spirit that runs through the universe.



Once a year there is an unusual number of bangs in the city. People look at each other and nod, ``It must be divali.`` There is a also trend amongst fiery big-mouthed 90s women to include a rang amongst their wedding ceremonies. Everyone runs around throwing colour on each other and squealing. In the leading papers` yearly ``round-up of architecture Karachi should be proud of`` the Hindu Gymkhana and Swami Narayan Mandir are pointed out, freshly photographed. The twisted implementation of the blasphemy law and the rabidity of zealots ensure that the Hindu community maintains a low profile. The many festivals in their religious calendar are celebrated softly.



Divali is the festival of lights, celebrated at the end of the Hindu old year to usher in the new year, through tribute to the goddess Lakshmi, who brings blessing and prosperity to her worshippers. It coincides with the return of Rama after 14 years in exile. The word itself comes from ``dipwali`` or ``row of lights``. The lamps are placed at windows and doors to drive away the night and shed light into darkness, symbolizing the victory of good over evil and the beauty of life despite the imminence of death. It is celebrated in October or November.



The Holi festival comes at the end of winter and the advent of spring. Colour and powder fly through the end and out the end of water guns. It can be seen as symbolic of the blooming of flowers after the desert of winter. Holi comes from Holika, a fire demon summoned by her evil tyrant brother Hiranya to kill his seemingly indestructible son. The son is sustained by his faith in Vishnu, the demons are destroyed. Holi is about adding colour to life through truth and faith in the goodness of it all.



There is Dassehra or ``the tenth``, which comes at the end of nine nights of hymns to the goddess Durga. Falling between September and October, the ritual is considered important for brides and engaged women.



Falling around July and August is Raksha Bandhan where women tie strings around the wrists of men they are related to for their protection.



Hindu festivals are rich and diverse, as is their contribution to the roots of Pakistani culture. The Indus valley civilization threw up statues of goddess and animals, the influence of Hinduism was prevalent in Harappa and Taxila too. There are many sites In Pakistan that are near sacred to Hindus, including Manora Island which some feel is ``only several hundred kilometers`` away from what used to be the kingdom of an avatar of the god Vishnu.



There must have been a time when the borders of co-existing religions were porous too. The colour, festivity and scent of many Muslim wedding ceremonies find their roots in Hindu festivals.



The Hindu wedding ceremony, as seen on TV or in an Indian movie, is even more colourful than its Pakistani counterpart. There are numerous festivals involving music, dancing and colour. The ceremony itself is conducted in Sanskrit. It starts out with a prayer, followed by identification of the two to be wed, then the ``evocation of virtue`` in which anyone who feels this marriage cannot proceed is given a chance to step forward. Next the two stand facing each other as blessing and rice, are showered upon them. The priest offers tribute to the fire, which is considered the manifestation of God, the couple exchange vows. Then they circle the divine fire seven times, tied together as companions on the path of life. A modern Karachi Hindu wedding often incorporates a reception at another venue where guests can greet the newly married couple.



The homepage of the Pakistani Hindu Association states: ``Traditionally, Pakistani Hindus have not referred to the name of their religion as `Hinduism`. This was a name given by foreigners to identify those people living in the vicinity of the Sindhu River. Pakistani Hindus have always referred to their religion as Vedic Dharm. Sometimes, Vedic Dharm is also referred to as the Aryan religion.``



What is it like to be Hindu in an Islamic republic? Since others are always defining you, you try your best to provide the definitions yourself.



Hinduism is a religion that is vast in scope in terms of its rituals, and the sheer volume of deities associated with it. Ultimately, the source of all its ritual and myth lies in the concept of Brahma, the spirit that runs through the universe. ``Impersonal and indestructible``, it was, is and always will be, the philosophy goes. It is seen as creator, preserver and destroyer. And hence the three main Hindu Deities are Brahma the creator, Vishnu the preserver and Shiva the destroyer. Vasihnavism has the most followers at 80 per cent while Shivaism (devotees of Shiva the destroyer) is popular in Tamil South India. Hinduism also recognizes avatars, incarnations of one of the three Gods. Two of the avatars of the god Vishnu, Rama and Krishna, are very important figures in Hindu mythology. Hindus also hold animals sacred, as some of them are considered avatars of important gods. Especially popular are Ganesha the elephant headed and Hanuman the monkey headed god.



A belief in Hinduism does not stipulate loyalty to any one of these Gods, it is understood that everyone has a personal deity. Puja, or worship, can be done in any place. It simply involves offerings of kum kum, rice, fruit, flowers, incense or light to an image of the deity and a recitation of sacred texts. Any place where puja is offered is a shrine. A temple on the other hand is the house of a deity.



What is it like?



There are two brothers, Jagdeep and Mukesh. Mukesh is intelligent and articulate and always in the top three at his school, one of the leading boys school in Karachi. His brother Jagdeep is one year younger and in the same school. He has been plagued with discipline problems. The administration keeps calling his parents and telling them to do something about it or they will be forced to take strong action. The parents say he gets into fights because he is constantly provoked with taunts of ``Hindu %#%`` and ``Hindu &&

kgeorge

Since in your previous reply, you said that that saying Altaf Murdamad in Lalukhet you don`t understand, I presumed, you are not from Karachi or Pakistan Moreover remembering Lalukhet and Tin Hatti whose airport was famously bombarded by India in 1965 war, does not at all convince me. How about Nagan Chowrangi and Kala pul.

Although your presumption is right. You can say, I am coward rather than by necessity. If you are from Karachi you know the famous saying ``Ya Shaikh apni apni dekh``.

So my friend, you either go with horde, like MQM, loot and do the killing. Or starve or die.

You are coward, if you are alone and not doing anything. I have done enough, in my prime. Even at the time of Altaf when he was busy killing Punjabis and Sindhis, I was a vocal opponent of him endangering my life.

To whom is my first responsibility. I think, it is family and then people, in that order.

For most people who are faking to be involved in politics are basically taking care of their family. All the family members and near relatives with political connection have found some form of relief in Pakistan or abroad.

My conscience is clear in what I am doing, and my advise for the common man would be. Don`t sell your conscience for little amount and learn to survive with all pressures.

krashid; reply #95

NIMBY?

Jun-21-00 3:47:37 EST Reply #: 95

[by]krashid

[Re:] kgeorge#92

``First of all, I would like to ask you which country do you belong. Because you initially faked as Pakistani.

[In this context, even apropos of nothing that follows, read Ms. Ayesha Haroon`s write-up on the Chowk elsewhere].

[You will be comitting the ``genetic fallacy`` if you evaluate my arguments on the basis of my origin. How do ``Goli Mar`` and ``Teen Hatti`` sound to you? Which country are YOU in, now? U.S.A?]

``Second, your arguments appear sound on paper.

[They //are// sound because true. Period]

``... . who have emigrated abroad ... .

[should not include workers in the UAE who kill themselves in slavery conditions to earn and remit money to Pakistan. See `Doosra Aasman`, A Pakistaani play about them, or most of them anyway].

``... doing a good job for the economy of Pakistan ...

[as Americans, the Brits, the Australians, the Canadians and Europeans are //not//{doing a good job for their countries` economies), by not migrating OUT of their countries. Right?].

``While in Pakistan they might have been a burden on exchequer,... .

[even as an office boy or a peon, you had no intention of working honestly?]

``... or be a part and parcel in bribe and looting which is a culture in Pakistan.

[cleaning up the culture, are you by emigrating?].

``Third, as I said if country is demanding something from me, i.e my labor. It has to provide me with something also.

[Provide sense of shame. On both counts?]

``That something is job, in which I can live in a house, teach my children and don`t go hungry. Do you have some magic by which you can do something for the people, so that they don`t emigrate.

[Q: Should the country have all these things in place before you are born? I mean, before one is born].

[ No, I do not have a magic. Even God doesn`t have a solution to greed, selfishness AND lack of shame].

``Why should a person leave his culture, his people, his friends, his surroundings except by necessity.``

[See above. Besides, such people have no `friends`, `people` and `culture`. You do have an unassailable sense of humour, though!].

``As far as your suggestion of seeing a neuro-surgeon. Can you kindly tell me what kind of disease you are suspecting to refer me to a neuro-surgeon.``

[I am not `suspecting` anything; simply `suggesting`. Read ``One flew Over the Cukoo`s Nest``, or, see movie of the same title (I can`t vouch for the movie since I haven`t seen it) for a good understanding].

Best wishes to you krashid.

Creation of Pakistan on the basis of `Two-Nation theory` (TNT) was wrong.

http://www.dawn.com/2000/06/22/top15.htm

Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM) chief Altaf Hussain has said that the creation of Bangladesh in 1971 proves that the Two-Nation Theory of Pakistan`s founders was a ``farce`` and ``it was the biggest fraud played with the Muslims of India.``

``Events after the creation of Pakistan have proved that it was a wrong theory,`` he said, adding that if the theory was correct, he would be convinced only when the government agreed to open borders and allow Indian Muslims to settle in Pakistan and repatriated stranded Pakistanis living in Bangladeshi camps.

Talking to a delegation of intellectuals and professors from the Sub-continent, which visited the MQM International Secretariat, Mr Hussain claimed that history had proved that the Two-Nation Theory was wrong.

No name of the delegation members, or from which city they had come, was mentioned in a press release issued on Wednesday from the MQM International Secretariat.

Saying that there was no future of Pakistan, which was disintegrated in 1971 and whose remaining part is ``on the verge of catastrophe,`` the MQM chief said that East Bengal was the first to support the creation of Pakistan based on the Two-Nation Theory.

But the same part rectified its mistake by separating itself in 1971 thus ``proving that the theory was a farce``.

He said the supporters of the theory were now asking the stranded Pakistanis in Bangladesh to opt for Bangladeshi citizenship or settle in any Muslim country instead of inviting them back to Pakistan.

``On what ideological basis are you offering such an advice to the stranded Pakistanis? Does this advice relate to the concept of the Two-Nation Theory or does it negate the very concept?,`` he asked.

He said that if we analyse the history of the Pakistan Movement, it emerged that virtually all Muslim majority provinces of the present-day Pakistan had opposed the creation of Pakistan. He said only the Sindh Assembly had supported the creation of Pakistan and that too with a majority of only one vote.

Mr Hussain said that all those who had supported the concept of the Two-Nation Theory and Pakistan, including Mr GM Syed, had been labelled as ``traitors`` in Pakistan.

``Mr Fazl-i-Haq, the Lion of Bengal, who had presented the Pakistan Resolution, was labelled as a ``traitor,`` the Sindhis were labelled as ``traitors``, the Balochs were labelled as ``traitors``; and now the Mohajirs have also been labelled as ``traitors,`` he said.

The MQM chief said that the Pakistan army had forced the people of East Pakistan to separate by carrying out their massacre in 1970 and raping their women. Similarly, he said, the army had marched against Balochs and Sindhis and now it had been targeting Mohajirs for last eight years.

``The army operation against Mohajirs, which commenced on June 19, 1992, was also a negation of the Two-Nation Theory,`` he said.

Mr Hussain also said that the formation of a nation on the basis of religion was fundamentally wrong because if the religion was the basis for nationhood then more than 45 independent and sovereign Muslim states would not have been the members of the United Nations as separate and independent states.

He said though it was claimed that Pakistan was being created for 100 million Muslims of India, it became the homeland of Muslims of the Muslim majority provinces only.

``Today, if we compare the population of Muslims living in Pakistan with that of the Muslims living in India then we see that the population of Muslims in India is much more than the total Muslim population of Pakistan.

It means that the Two-Nation Theory has failed to provide protection and security to the majority of Muslims of the Sub-continent because the number of Muslims living in India is greater than the total Muslims of Pakistan,`` he said. ``If the Muslims of India were to remain under the Hindu majority then why were they taught the doctrine of the Pakistan Movement and the Two-Nation Theory,?`` he asked.

kgeorge#92

First of all, I would like to ask you which country do you belong. Because you initially faked as Pakistani.

Second, your arguments appear sound on paper. The reason is simple. These Saands of yours, meaning Pakistanis who have emigrated abroad are doing a good job for the economy of Pakistan. While in Pakistan they might have been a burden on exchequer, or be a part and parcel in bribe and looting which is a culture in Pakistan.

Third, as I said if country is demanding something from me, i.e my labor. It has to provide me with something also. That something is job, in which I can live in a house, teach my children and don`t go hungry. Do you have some magic by which you can do something for the people, so that they don`t emigrate.

Why should a person leave his culture, his people, his friends, his surroundings except by necessity.

As far as your suggestion of seeing a neuro-surgeon. Can you kindly tell me what kind of disease you are suspecting to refer me to a neuro-surgeon.

krashid #92

kr, believe me I have always wished you well.

I read your post #92. Please consult a counselor or a neurologist. I say this honestly and with concern, because I know you make sense in many of your posts. But in this one? It is possible that you are on antihistamins for pollen allergy. You see, you talk about I going to Lalukhet and say something about somebody, Mushtaq Hussain, and get killed. What is this apropos of? In the first instance why would I say anything about anybody anyway? Particularly when I don`t know the gentleman.

No matter how illiterate or untrained you are, no matter how much a skilled or an unskilled of a worker you are, when you go to live in the adopted country of your choice you have absorbed 1/2 million dollars in your upbringing upto let`s say age 28. This include your consumption of food, clothing, general amenities eg., provision of roads, street lights, police, national defence, supply-of-water, of-electricity to-the-house, provision of public entertainment e.g., radio, television etc. The list goes on and on. And on.

So, you see, you are already worth half a million dollars when you arrive in your countries of immigration choice. That is the minimum price one can put on you in dollar terms. The pain to your parents, the tribulations of your mother in particular, and the pain of losing you to the Pardes is incalculable. But enough said.

Two things still need to be said: that one half of a million is a GIFT to the receiving nation, in which, and where, you arrive palley plaaye, like a Saand. Your country has spent that on you. If your host country were to raise a similar Saand, it would be in no way less than the amount I have calculated. In this way all of you who go to those countries represent net AID to those countries. They gave aid, grants and loans to your country so that the task of raising Saands, the cattle, is carried out by the poorer countries.

In the end those countries get their capital back in terms of you. AND leave the next generations in your country of birth to pay off the funds that went into raising you.

You do appreciate the fact that despite all this glib talk these days of individuals having looted 300 crores and 500 crores (if true, because I boubt it) was not looted all during your life when you were here in Pakistan.

The second thing that I should like everybody to remember is that even though you may be worth half a million dollars (or, for that matter, whatever) you have not paid back to your country what it spent on you and the loss it incurred due to you turning coats.

What the frung do you ask me to say something in Lalukhet and see whether I come back alive or not. krashid, see a neurosurgeon or else write posts that, we pedestrians, can understand.

Temples dying in Pakistan

http://www.dailyexcelsior.com/00june06/edit.htm#4

By Firoz Bakht Ahmed

Few people are aware that Pakistan has Vedic temples prima au pareil (unparallel) languishing for want of care and dying a dusty death. Umpteen temples have vanished from the skyline of the prominent cities of Karachi, Lahore, Rawalpindi, Sindh and Islamabad. The clue as to how briskly they have disappeared is provided by the fact that at the time of Independence, some 424 Hindu temples dotted the landscape of Karachi alongwith a synagogue, several gurudwaras and a number of churches. Over the years, however, the temples have disappeared one by one, leaving alone only a handful of places where the city`s Hindu residents may worship.

According to Saquib Malik, the features editor of Karachi`s ‘Herald’ monthly, in the year immediately following partition, a majority of Karachi`s temples were converted into Government schools while some were turned into private residences. The rest of the temples remained more or less undisturbed. What is most unfortunate, according to the noted columnist of Karachi`s ‘Dawn’ English daily, Nahid Riyaz, is that the few remaining temples have always been under threat from the city`s notorious land mafia. In many cases, the courtyards and grounds surrounding these structures, have already been encroached. But more shocking is the fact that the custodians of the temples themselves joined hands with the land grabbers. While the administration turns a blind eye to the plunder, a vital part of the city`s cultural heritage is fast disappearing.

From the Pakistani capital Islamabad to Lahore, the motorway is not only very comfortable but also makes a memorable journey owing to the fact that there are many Hindu and Islamic monuments of importance and one such is the historic Katasraj Mandir associated with the Mahabharata legend. Legend has it that here the famous dialogue between Yudhishthira and Yaksha took place. The story goes that here the Pandava brothers went to quench their thirst at the Katasraj Mandir pond, Yaksha, the protector of the pond, allowed them to drink water on the condition they answered their questions. While the four of the Pandavas failed to answer his questions, they were rendered lifeless by him. Yudhisththira finally answered all the questions and had his brothers revived by the Yaksha.

Vijay Goel, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) Lok Sabha MP, visited this temple in Pakistan and lamented that it was in a pathetic state in spite of the fact that it has a tremendous following and the cases for its uplift and restoration are in the Lahore High Court. Goel suggested that the Heads of the two countries come together and form a Joint Committee for involving the historians, social activists, planners and media persons for restoration of places of religious importance both in India and Pakistan. He made this suggestion to former Prime Ministers Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto while on his visit to Lahore for the historic Delhi-Lahore bus journey representing the Indian Parliamentary delegation.

Goel was dazed to know that at the social level, the people of Pakistan wanted to be close to India as much and that there are no walls and political borders. Their craze for Amitabh Bachchan, Rajesh Khanna, Aamir Khan, Juhi Chawla, Karishma, Kajol and Manisha Koirala was more than the Indians, Goel felt. After talking to the members of the Pakistani Hindu Mahasabha, Goel found that more temples in that country were destroyed after December 6, 1992 in the bloody Babri Masjid aftermath than in the half century after the vivisection of the sub-continent. They told Goel that religious fundamentalism is extremely dangerous, especially for the minorities.

In the days that followed the aftermath of the Babri Masjid demolition by the frenzied mob in Faizabad, the Hindu temples all across Pakistan came under attack from rioting crowds. The temples that were destroyed in Karachi and Peshawar in those days of unbridled hate, were never rebuilt. Rather, the land on which they were constructed, was quietly sold off to real estate developers. Some temples have been rebuilt but they are few.

The very entrance to Katasraj Mandir is a pathetic one. There`s nothing that can be termed as Mandir except the ruins. In fact, the presence of an old board only indicated that the site is that of the famous Katasraj Mandir where a guard is also placed. There is a plaque by the Archaeological Survey of Pakistan that quotes the history of this temple. ``Katas: Kohistan Mountains, Central Chakwal --- according to the legend of the Mahabharata, when Lord Shiva lost his wife Parvati, he felt so upset that the ponds at the eastern and western ends of the temple got filled by his tears. In Sanskrit it is also known as ‘Katak Sheel’ which means flow of tears. Later on the name got twisted to ‘Katas’. The place is of great significance for the Brahmins.``

Even Al-Bairuni wrote an interesting history of the temple in his ‘Kitab-ul-Hind’ where he depicts that he learnt Sanskrit and science at Katas. Not only this, quite interestingly, he even learnt many Vedic traditions. Renowned historian Panikkar states that ‘Kitab-ul-Hind’ brings a very honest and first-hand account of history at that time. It is also mentioned in Bairuni`s book that Katas happened to be the most revered Mandir after Punjab`s Jwalamukhi Mandir. This fact is also confirmed by Liaqat Ali Khan Niyazi, the Deputy Commissioner of Chakwal. Al-Bairuni also mentioned about other Pakistani temples like Panch Mukhi ka Hanuman Mandir, Nagnath Baba Mandir and Darya Lal Mandir.

The grounds of the famous Nagnath Bawa Mandir in Karachi have been occupied by a businessman housing a soap factory. Though the owner claims to have brought it legally from the Karachi Building Control Authority (KBCA), Hindu residents of the area dispute the claim. The historic importance of this temple is that once Lord Shankar wanted to lead peaceful existence for some time and he came here. He took the permission of Anant Vasudevji, who gladly agreed and desired that the deity visited this place regularly even later on. It was managed by a local trust of the Hindu community that has no influence in the area. Not very distant is the Preedy Police Station adjacent to which is the Preedy Mandir at Sadar. It was occupied by the dreaded land mafia in that area. The trustees of the temple said that it was owing to a nexus between the land grabbers, police and politicians.

Similarly, there is Narayan Mandir, situated at MA Jinnah Road, just opposite the head office of the Karachi Municipal Corporation. Presently, it has been managed by the All-Pakistan Hindu Panchayat Committee and community leaders. It is known for colourful festivals. The shopkeepers on the road have not only encroached upon its premises but also started storing their merchandise in the temple compound. Raja Dharampal Varma, an office bearer, states that initially the shopkeepers said that they were sitting there only to avoid the heat during the summer. But, slowly they started using the premises as a warehouse. That`s why they sealed the rear gate of the temple for fear of an attack by the fanatics.

Narinder Jogi, a former trustee of the temple told that they complained to the authorities but to no avail. They have been pleading their case since Benazir Bhutto was the Prime Minister during her first-term but in vain. ``The corrupt have no fear, for they know even if they are entrapped and an enquiry held and they are found to be guilty and suspended, they will soon walk back or walk to an even better job. It is indeed difficult to fight and win``, rues a disgruntled Jogi.

Darya Lal Mandir in the vicinity of the Customs House got its name as it is situated just on the edge of the Arabian sea. The story goes that the Hindus living in the areas around this temple sought the blessing of the deity in the sanctum sanctorum before launching their boats in the sea. It is believed that those who sought the blessings, were safe and sound no matter whatever the fury of the tempest used to be. Apart from that they also got the best variety of fish. Basically most of them came from Mohalla Mahigir (fishermen`s locality). Today, they prefer to make their journey without Darya Lal`s blessings, perhaps because a large part of the temple as well as the surrounding area has been encroached upon by the Karachi Hazara Goods Company, transporters and a tea canteen. The company owner and his employees harass visitors to Darya Lal, especially the women.

In Karachi`s famous Hingora Lane, Lyari, the famous Jagdish Mandir was completely destroyed in the aftermath of Babri Masjid debacle. The Pujari, Sant Ram Bhatia, lamented the fact that prior to the Babri Masjid disaster, there was little love lost between the Hindus and Pathans and Balochis living in the neighbourhood. Rather, in the absence of the Pujari, the immediate neighbour Shamsher Khan Diwan took care of the temple premises and opened it if some visitor wanted to see it. Twice Bhatia visited India and each time he left the keys in the possession of Diwan who fully guaranteed its safety. But, after the sad Ram Mandir imbroglio, the very same neighbours accuse the Indian ilks of Pujari to be non-secular and fascist and anti-Muslim. A portion of the Mandir was taken by a madrasa and the remaining part was converted into a warehouse by the Managing Committee of the temple. Today, there is no trace of Jagdish Mandir, where the famous Saint Rishi Gautam used to reside here and even Ganga once appeared here in the form of Gautmi alongwith Shiva Trayambkeshwara Jyotirlinga. Now all this is a legend.

Lyari`s largest Hindu temple was the Panjrapur Mandir. A portion of the temple`s ground has been taken over by an adjacent building after some understanding by the trustees of the temple. After that another portion of the courtyard of the temple was bought by another person for commercial purposes. The construction is still on with the help of Khatu Mal, Member, Pakistani Assembly. Others who sold off the temple premises include the self-proclaimed Mahanta Babu Lal and temple caretaker Kishan Meghwar. Only 6x8 feet portion remains of what is now that Mandir that was spread over 3,000 sq yds. Not very far away from Panjrapur Mandir is the once famous Bhagnari Mandir near Tea Market that was constructed by the Balochi Hindus and was visited by the members of one Lassi tribe. More than half of the temple premises has been occupied by a transporter and a courier company, Al-Rifah.

Laxmi Narayan Panghat Mandir, situated beside the Native Jetty, (Neti-Jeti in the vernacular) once held a special significance for Hindu women, who came here for performing the ritual purification bath. Goddess Laxmi and Lord Narain also appeared here. It was originally here that out of reverence for this pious place that some tears fell from the eyes of Lord Narayan and Bindu Sarovar, a fresh water pound came into being immediately after that. Over the last few decades the devotees numbers have decreased owing to encroachment upon the premises by some politicians and other influential people. The aesthetic beauty of the temple has been marred owing to the construction of the Jinnah Over Bridge Extension. Besides, the women devotees hesitate to visit the site because of late the area has become a hunting ground for lecherous young men, especially during the festivals of Rakhi, Ganpati, Karwa Chauth, Holi and Diwali. Some distance away from this temple used to be the Hanuman Mandir at Frere Market Road that was abandoned after Babri Masjid debacle. Today, a cryptic sign reading KESC-208 is painted on the door.

In a recent judgement, the Chief Justice of Sindh, Kamal Mansoor Alam, realising the lack of confidence in the Pakistani Courts and the frustration of the minorities of that city who have filed umpteen number of petitions against the illegal and forced occupation of the temples, has appointed a ‘Temple Bench’ comprising two fearless judges, Justice Rana Bhagwandas and Sabihuddin Ahmed. He has also ordered it to sit on one day each week to hear cases involving encroachment on temples. This bench has successfully and expeditiously dispensed justice.

Salman Rashid, a freelance Karachi journalist, states that such unauthorised temple occupations are not raised overnight in a manner that would escape the notice of the officials, nor they can remain concealed. Such illegal activity bears testimony to the indifference of the authorities. At the same time, he maintains that the question of the illegal occupation of temples in Pakistan and mosques in India is a very sensitive one. The two countries` administrators must bear this in mind that if a temple is burnt in Pakistan, the ones to suffer will be the innocnt Indian Muslims and their mosques and if a similar incident takes place in India where a mosque is harmed, the innocent Pakistani Hindus have to bear the brunt.

Rashid maintains that this is very unfortunate and with the presence of custodians of law, the law of the jungle must not prevail. The two governments must respect the places of worship of all the communities. Rashid quoted the Karachi Governor Moinuddin Haider saying that one single most heinous crime in the religious realm of the sub-continent was the destruction of Babri Masjid. Let`s hope sanity and better sense prevails and the religious places of all the communities remain safe, not only in the sub-continent but elsewhere even - for they are the harbingers of harmony for those who are attached to them in the heart and mind.

kheorge #91

In your post you said esentially that people are in very bad shape. There is no disagreement.

Then you said people like me sucked it dry.

As long as I was in Pakistan, I have taken a very good care of people and politics there.

When I am here, I still keep in touch, with the events there.

I don`t get your point of sucking it dry.

Did I looted banks? Did I took bribes? Since I could not do this and I did not want my family to eat ``Haram``, I have to work hard.

I am still doing that.

Can you do something.

If you have some courage and determination go in Lalukhet in Karachi and say Altaf has made Mohajir into paupers. You will not return alive.

There is no one way street. If I am for Pakistan. Pakistan is for me also.

``And leave all this big talk of Nationalism and sucking of nation.``

krashid #90

krashid: This is not a comedy fest and the one-liners won`t do. You do realize that #88 is not answered by your one line above.

The question had an import for Pakistanis as much as for Indians. Perhaps one of them would like to address it.

kgeorge#88 peeping #89

If you have worked in different communities, then you would not be saying this.

As far as your assertion of betraying the people of Pakistan.

I don`t know who is betraying. One who says everything is good because they have gone to give ``Sadaka``.

If you have seen the poor through Sadaka. You have seen nothing.

And leave all this big talk of Nationalism and sucking of nation.

Talk about people.

Give your credentials.

I will give mine.

krashid reply# 87

* Are you talking about the same Pakistan where I * lived or is it another country.

Yes. I am talking about the same country that you are so afraid to live in. For me its the most beautiful country in the world. Yes there are slums in Karachi and other citites but let me make one thing clear. I have been to these slums to offer sadqah from my parents side. They do get to meet their ends and some of them even refused to accept sadqah saying it was meant for even poorer people. Crime and exploitation does occur here. But where does it not happen. I sincerely feel that its no reason to talk against the identity and cause of your country. If this be the case then India needs to have the most worries about the purpose of its conception. Despite the expenditure on nuclear arms and technical advancement India still needs to offer protection to countless homeless people.

And as for Reply # 88

I am not sure if I was also guilty of the this ``badtameezi`` that Kgeorge has mentioned. If I am guilty then all due apologies.

I cannot help agree with you. Everything about the country of destination to the country of origin has been well said. All I can add is that your country is the way you look at it. Being ungrateful is very easy. Try thinking to yourself how you have sucked your countries resources. How it has given you the basic education and the technical computer education on the base of which you are in the country of destination. Ask what your country has given you and the answer would be endless. Ask what you have given your country and I am afraid the answer would be ``nothing.``

peeping #86

Are you talking about the same Pakistan where I lived or is it another country.

As far and as long as I remember there are many slums in Karachi where people barely meet their ends. Many people sleep on footpath. And Bhutta are taken from them for sleeping and women are raped by police.

Endless lines of anemic blood sellers.

If you have not seen the majority of Pakistan you have seen nothing in Pakistan.

Sir,

Respect for your age and the fact that I am only 18 years of age makes me call you sir.

When I started reading your article I could not help agree with you. Yes you are right in some ways when you say that India was faced with a number of ethnicities ,a number of languages etc. But, consider for a moment the Pakistan our ancestors had.The british so unfairly handed it all to you. We started from scratch. We had nothing. We were pushed back so much whereas you were given a boost and push forward by the British. Its a wonder that we could stay defragmented for 53 years.

A common misconception of you Indians is that Pakistan was a mistake. No sir, I repeat it was not. I am much happier here in a country that allows me to practise my religion. Your media might have projected one or two stray incidents here as a common thing. But, I can swear I feel much safe to walk on the streets of my city. I live with people who are of my faith and who do not go about breaking my mosque to build a temple there. And The Quaid-i-Azam never regreted nor was he ever confused about the creation of Pakistan. This was rather a very honorable gesture from his side whereby even in a purely Muslim state, Non-Muslims were given the right to practise their religion and work towards the betterment of this great country. We got what we wanted and we are thankful to God for this. The people who decided that they wanted not to live in this country have their own reasons. The fact that millions of people left their homelands to suffer the killings by their hindu and sikh brethren speaks for itself that they believed in the cause of Pakistan.

And the next time you decide to write this type of a melodramatic piece of writing about my country sitting in your lush study with the air conditioner on and enjoying your typing on the new notebook of yours, do me a favor. Go to the streets of Mumbai or any city in India and try to look at the slums and poverty around. I am proud to say that in my country not a single person sleeps with an empty stomach. Can you say that about your country?

As for me, I am happy that my father left his hometown of Amristar in India to live an honorable life in Pakistan....the land of the Pure.

http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/88aug/obrien.htm

The Indian state came into being amid the scenes of communal-religious carnage that accompanied the partition of the subcontinent between mainly Hindu India and entirely Muslim Pakistan. Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan, had resolutely rejected the idea of a secular state that could encompass both Hindus and Muslims. In his presidential address to the Muslim League at Lahore in 1940, Jinnah declared: ``Islam and Hinduism are not religions in the strict sense of the word, but in fact different and distinct social orders, and it is only a dream that the Hindus and Muslims can ever evolve a common nationality.... To yoke together two such nations under a single state ... must lead to a growing discontent and final destruction of any fabric that may be so built up for the government of such a state.``



Yet in the event, the fabric of India`s secular state proved tougher than that of confessional Pakistan. Pakistan originally consisted of eastern and western sections, connected by a common religion but different in language and culture. The religious bond proved insufficient, and East Pakistan in 1971 seceded and became the independent state of Bangladesh. Secular India, however, has held together. There are now almost as many Muslims in India as there are in Pakistan. Muslims and Hindus in India may perhaps not have ``evolved a common nationality,`` but they -- and Sikhs also, so far -- have managed to live together, within one state, for more than forty years now, whereas the ``common nationality`` of the Muslims of Pakistan burst asunder after twenty-four years.

The viability of the secular and democratic system in India is a remarkable phenomenon, and one that has received less attention in the West than it deserves. Yet there have been continuing challenges, both internal and external, to India`s secular democracy, and to the very existence of an Indian state.

Pu Li #79 and temporal #80

You two gentlemen are among the five or six individuals on the Chowk that I hold in healthy respect; you, for your usually demonstrated clarity of thought and communication. However, here you seem to be referring to more //recent// yesteryears than what I had in mind. There seems to be some confusion here. Let`s see:

I didn`t //come// here in this year or that. //I was here// in a manner of speaking. So, please consider what I said earlier as from the horse`s mouth, subject to the possibility of errors of minor detail as a matter of course.

Pu Li: I am familiar with the episode you mention, and indeed both Pakistan and France

offered, I think, the same amount. `t` probably, also, refers to the same occurrence but

more rightly places it a decade earlier than you do. Still, the episode to which you make a

reference, was nowhere NEAR 1980s because in late 1970 [that is, nineteen seventy] or early 1971 [that is nineteen seventy one], it was reported in the news that a Milwaukee Journal was about to publish a recipe for an Hydrogen Bomb. The Federal government entered into the picture and, through the relevant Circuit Court, obtained an injunction against its publication. However, before the hearings in the Court started, the publishers started a new magazine and published the recipe in it. The injunction, you see, was

against journal/magazine ``A``, and not against a similar organ ``B``! The episode I cite had taken place long before this one in 1970-71.

I invited you to ``research`` this thing through the archives of NBC, and, now, about the H-bomb you can get particulars through the Milwaukee newspaper(s), should you so desire.

Unfortunately, I am not in a position to do these things myself. So, given the intention of the post, I didn`t feel the need to have it ``researched`` for exact dates and individuals, and

Courts involved.

I allow for the lapse of DETAILS from my memory but the SEQUENCE is embedded in my mind since I was leaving Detroit at the time of the Milwaukee

episode and I remember discussing it with colleagues of the Left, and further left. The

Atomic Bomb story was certainly much earlier than that. [The one I am thinking of, that is].

`t`: I am glad to learn of the background detail of the more recent Atomic Bomb dastaan

[Tota K`haani?]. But the `story` that I referred to is [to the best of my recollection] of a much earlier vintage. Please look into its lineage[?] for the sake of fun; something that I had intended while posting my `analysis`.

I hope, everybody has now gotten the message that I wished to convey to begin with. Namely, inflation and times have changed so that one can`t even kill economically [pun unintended] any longer.

Efficient people-destroyers are so expensive! What is a body [read, nation] to do!

I thought there was a message which got lost in details. To repeat, the cost of killing is

escalating (even with the laser guided guns. It still takes X ozs of lead per kill [body] and not

just one bullet, as it should in a rational universe).

Soon the third world mendicants e.g., India and Pakistan would run out of money to kill the `enemy`, although they will always have enough to kill their own. The Western World [if all else fails] would see to it that enough is available to accomplish //that// job.

Almost all of us seem to be deluded by the future prospects of developing the IT empires in our countries and reaping the rewards in quantums hitherto unimagined. Sounds good so you are going to keep talking about these and keep comparing the size of each other`s father`s Pi-nus.(as somebody mentioned on the Chowk not too long ago).

The Law of Cultural Dominance comes to my mind here. A society or a civilization which acquires a cultural dominance dictates the limits of development of the `dominated` nations and civilizations.

Consider the United States as the Culturally Dominant Nation today. By offering lucrative

jobs in the United States [or in mambo-jambo as busywork] to the IT-Einsteins, they can, in the producing countries, control the level and speed

and quality of development of related institutions and work. If that outflow is attempted to be curbed by the exporting country, the Americans will always have a threat up their sleeve to

dissuade that nation one way or the other, as they did with India with a threat to withdraw all their PL-480 funds from the Indian banks if Mrs. Gandhi proceeded with her plan to nationalize them. Well,... .that was the end of that story.

The United States can - and does it not, theoretically, already? - control the major communication satellites and has the ability to disable others` who do not tow its line. So where will be the Indian ``Bharticon Valley`` and Netsol International [(NTWK/Nasdaq) + Network Solutions] of Lahore if the U.S. controls the world communication media? The development of any ``valley``, anywhere, can and will be controlled by the Culturally Dominant society/ies and shall be allowed to develop only so far, elsewhere. [Just enough to allow the nagriks` body and soul together so they can keep working for Nike, Reebocks shoes, and Van Huesen and Givenchy shirts all at 29 cents an hour wage, //in general, on the average.// Sounds like rehash of the Marxist writings; no. it is the lessaiz-faire policy of the West, Metropolitan-hinterland dynamics. You can see that I am not in a mood to start an argument with anybody. Pu Li, I just noticed that either you have started nitpicking, or have developed a new strain of humour: O.K. It was $100 and not the fault of my New Math! Picayune? Yes. What was the devaluation of the Pound in 1968 relative to the $US? I thought it was $3.00 but then who`s counting!].

So, what will the ``dominated`` societies do? Send Viruses to, let`s say, the United States? To begin with, the monetarily bought and Pavolovianly conditioned to comfort Indo-Pakistanis will have developed powerful anti-viruses for the United States, and secondly, and unhappily, sending or introducing viruses is a two-way amusement! {What

if the communication operates only in one direction, either in the simplest of senses or in

terms of ``return of `spam``` to the point of origin?}

I hope the point is not lost again.

[Just occurred to me: Does anybody remember the episode of a graduate student in Massachusetts somewhere, I think, who built an ICBM in his back yard. But for the fuel, the ICBM was fully operational. One of the magazines [TIME, Newsweek] reported that when interviewed, the student said that he obtained the parts from various junk yards! I should be grateful to learn of its citable reference. Thank you.]

Pu Li!

I totally disagree with you about Pakistan buying it in 1980`s instead of India which is more hegemonist and terrorizing nation.

It must be a propaganda.

http://www.thefridaytimes.com/news6.htm

Where is Pakistan heading?



William Maley



Lord Acton famously observed that all power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is a potent warning, and one which should be uppermost in the minds of those who entertain high hopes of those who seize power in military coups. But corruption through absolute power is not by any means the greatest danger to which coups give rise. Most coups, after all, do not deliver absolute power to those who mount them: it is only in established totalitarian states that coup leaders prove so fortunate. Many coups occur in countries where the state is dysfunctional, since it is often the failure of the state to perform effectively that creates a climate favourable to unconstitutional shifts in political power in the first place. Where this occurs, there is no obvious reason to expect that the weaknesses of the state will vanish overnight. This is to a considerable extent the dilemma which General Musharraf, and the people of Pakistan, now confront.



A complex melange of domestic and international factors has contributed to this situation. Domestically, the Pakistani political system has been thoroughly delegitimated by a mixture of elite corruption and mass despair. The high hopes of Muhammad Ali Jinnah and his associates have been comprehensively betrayed by his successors, whose assets abroad and opulent lifestyles testify to their ability to loot the state, fast. The weaknesses, for example, in basic schooling in Pakistan are nothing short of scandalous. That women can be slain in so-called `honour killings`, in blatant disregard of the spirit of the Islamic faith, is a tragedy. That Pakistan is massively emburdened by sovereign debt while the infrastructure of the country is visibly crumbling before one`s eyes speaks volumes of the mismanagement which the people of Pakistan have endured. And with some notable exceptions, the state bureaucracy is a creature to be feared by ordinary people, and operationally one of the least impressive in the developing world. What would the Quaid think if he could see how things have developed?

These are now greatly complicated by Pakistan`s isolated regional and international situation. The Kargil exercise was intended to exploit Pakistan`s new nuclear status to engage Washington`s interest in the Kashmir dispute. It indeed engaged Washington`s interest, but instead prompted a striking reorientation of US policy in New Delhi`s direction. Great powers do not appreciate adolescents who play with matches near the fuel dump. As a result, Pakistan`s case over Kashmir is less likely than ever to be taken seriously, and politicians in India can hardly believe their good fortune.



But not only on the Islamabad-New Delhi axis has Pakistan been losing out. The official claim that Pakistan has no favourites in Afghanistan has now worn so thin that it invites derision. The Taliban have proved to be the kind of force that no neighbouring regime in its right mind would support, a true Frankenstein`s monster. While Afghanistan was off the international agenda this hardly mattered to Islamabad, but now that the combination of Kargil and Bin Laden has refocussed Washington`s attention onto `terrorist training camps` in Afghanistan, Pakistan too is coming in for closer scrutiny. President Clinton`s visit to Pakistan, which could most kindly be described as a studied insult, provides the clearest indication of how America`s patience with Pakistan is running out. Only the fear that more pressure on Pakistan could lead to the regime`s implosion and its replacement by nuclear-armed fundamentalists serves to insulate Islamabad from a stronger dose of American wrath.



This situation may well be about to get worse. The signalling from Moscow about the possibility of airstrikes against Chechen `terrorists` in Taliban areas of Afghanistan does not necessarily point to an imminent attack on Afghan territory. On the contrary, it is more likely intended to galvanise other permanent members of the UN Security Council to accept further sanctions against the Taliban.

But for Pakistan, this should be deeply worrying, for two reasons. First, any new UN sanctions beyond those which took effect in November 1999 are likely to target supplies to the Taliban of strategically-important items such as fuel from neighbouring states. Pakistan`s actions would suddenly be in the spotlight. Second, when Soviet forces struck against Afghanistan in December 1979, the US was moved to swing behind Pakistan as a frontline state. However, the political capital which Pakistan built up in the 1980s as a bastion of resistance to the USSR has been completely dissipated by its maladroit promotion of Afghan extremists, initially the Hezb-e Islami of Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, and since 1994, the Taliban. No one will rally to Pakistan`s side if Islamabad begins to look like a sanctions-buster.

Confronted with these dilemmas, General Musharraf will likely feel the need for some friends. And his retreat on the issue of amendments to the Blasphemy law provides a worrying indication of where he is likely to go looking for them. In the immediate aftermath of the coup, his public relations men embarked on a campaign, largely for international consumption, to depict him as a strong and professional soldier - right down to quoting the description of the young officer in his college`s handbook. The subtext to this theatre, of course, was that he was not a `fundamentalist`.

However, politics makes strange bedfellows. Given their strong support for the Army over Kargil, and their relative isolation from the corrupt mainstream of party politics which the Pakistan People`s Party and the Pakistan Muslim League had dominated, it was always the fundamentalist parties which were the General`s most likely allies of convenience in the long run. However, the dangers of this approach should be obvious. If the Americans conclude that fundamentalism is going to influence the government through the back door anyway, then the incentive for them to stay their pressure on what is increasingly seen as a roguish regime is likely to diminish.

General Musharraf, like many a coup leader before him, may be beginning to realise that he has no easy options. Those whose support he can most readily co-opt are the very political forces whose proximity to the state most alarms the international community and scares off productive investment. He is caught in a very vicious circle. What then, are the more promising of the uneasy choices he faces?

First, he should put an end to his flirtation with the jehadi parties. They will cause him nothing but grief. As the great German sociologist Max Weber once observed, `He who seeks the salvation of the soul, of his own and of others, should not seek it along the avenue of politics, for the quite different tasks of politics can only be solved by violence`. Islam has a vital role to play as a source of individual moral inspiration, but when religion and politics are mixed, it is almost invariably religion that is contaminated, not politics that is cleansed. Politics is ultimately a device for managing divergent interests, affections, and principles. Religious extremists, by contrast, seek control of the state in order to impose upon ordinary people the rulers` conception of what is right - as the Taliban have shown. The Holy Koran, in a number of key passages, emphasises that religion is not a matter of compulsion (al-Baqarah, 2: 256; Yunus, 10:99). These inspired words provide more than adequate justification for General Musharraf to separate the state from religion, and he should be forthright in promoting such a modernist, ethical Islam rather than its debilitated politicised offshoot.

Second, he should bite the bullet and discard the Afghan Taliban as a client. Without Pakistani support, and a steady flow of combatants from madrassas in Pakistan, the Taliban movement is likely to splinter quite quickly. This could significantly benefit the reform process in Pakistan, since it would be welcomed by the wider world, and would undercut the support base which the jehadi parties are methodically building in order to challenge the philosophy of Islamic moderation. Such a decisive step would meet with resistance from the jehadi groups, since their interests would be threatened. But the longer the decision is delayed, the harder it will be to implement. If the day comes that it cannot be implemented, the General will have become a puppet. Now is the time for action.

Where does Kashmir fit in this puzzle? Here, again, there is a desperate need for lateral thinking. Pakistan`s recent policy has proved an unmitigated disaster, to the point where almost every military step it could take has compromised its principled political position. The superheated atmosphere of anger on the Pakistan side over the behaviour of Indian security forces in the vale of Kashmir is matched by a superheated atmosphere of anger on the Indian side over the December 1999 Indian Airlines hijacking. Whichever side shows the cooler head is the more likely to win international plaudits at the moment. So far, India has been taking all the tricks. Unfortunately for Pakistan, its Kashmir position has become a hostage of its behaviour in Afghanistan, since the wider world, not unreasonably, sees a link between Kashmiri militancy, Taliban extremism, and Bin Laden. Nothing could have been calculated to do Pakistan`s Kashmir policy more harm.

Will General Musharraf choose wisely? The prospects are scarcely bright. The problem with the theory of `benevolent dictatorship` was identified two thousand years ago by the Roman writer Juvenal, who posed what may still be the ultimate question of politics - quis custodiet ipsos custodes?, `who will guard the guardians themselves?` The constraints which dispose a ruler to think of the long term as well as the short term are spectacularly absent from Pakistan`s politics, and indeed have been for many years. All in all, it seems more probable that his flirtation with the jehadis will blossom into a full scale romance. But if it does, he may discover that those who sow the wind are prone to reap the whirlwind.

Dr William Maley is Associate Professor of Politics, University College, University of New South Wales, Australia. His most recent monograph is The Foreign Policy of the Taliban (New York: Council on Foreign Relations, 2000)

Pu Li #79

I don`t know if it was the same incident or a different one, but in 1970/71 Pakistan`s bumbling military attache at the Foggy Bottom, a Col. Shamshad, was recalled over a similar incident when he foolishly offered the student some money on his official stationery.

rgds

t

Re salwak #: 78

[How India Wanted to purchase Atom Bomb recipe for $500 (France offered $300) from a Princeton Undergrad.

One is almost brought to tears at the rate of inflation. In the 1960s when a Princeton undergraduate wrote a course project and wrote down the recipe to build an atomic bomb (it was immediately ``classified``), officials of two embassies in the U.S. approached him. India`s agents offered him $500. (NBC nterviewed the student on air even though he was put in hiding by the FBI-CIA twins; ask NBC for their archival reference).]

I have been in the US since 1969. The event you referred to happened in the early 1980s, not in the 1960s.

The Princeton undergrad was given the project to design a working atom bomb for his bachelor`s degree in Physics. When he turned in his paper, his professor was astonished to find that the design would actually work, promptly classified the paper and notified the FBI.

The country that approached the student about buying his paper was Pakistan. In 1974, India had already tested the bomb. Pakistan was the country that was going to eat grass if they had to in order to get at a Bomb.

So, twist the story as you please. I dare you to post an authentic reference. Go to the morgues of either the Washington Post or New York Times and retrieve the story and post it here.

[The Pound Sterling being = $5., at the time it meant 60L sterling.]

The Pound Sterling hasn`t been at the ratio of $5 to a pound since WWII. Even in the 1960s, the rate was $2.40 to a pound and by the 1970`s it was down to $1.60. $500 at the rate of $5 to a pound works out to 100 pounds. Where you get 60 pounds is beyond me. Must be the New Math I missed in high school.

Re: AssadK #62

After Partition, the Punjab made it clear that it would only accept, in large numbers, refugees from E. Punjab and that these would be resettled where the provincial government thought best, i.e., scattered widely. Now, many of these E. Punjabis were actually Urdu speakers but over time many of them (actually their children) became Punjabiphone. My own family is a perfect example. Hardly any of my grandmother`s generation spoke any Punjabi, people of my generation and the one following almost all do.

In Sind, Liaqat and co wanted to create a ``natural`` constituency for themselves, so they actively settled refugees in Hyderabad and Karachi (I believe some made it to Sukkur as well). Given the tremendous concentrations in these cities, hardly any Muhajir speaks Sindhi who hails from H`abad or Karachi. In contrast to this, virtually all Muhajirs from Sukkur speak Sindhi.

Re: Macgupta #60

Pakistani statistics are a complete joke. OK, they`re not as bad as those in Uganda or Chad, but they are still quasi-fictional numbers. I think that the quality of the Indian figures is somewhat better.

For example, under Zia, there was trememdous pressure to ``prove`` how great Islam was, so one year (it might have been more than that, I don`t know) early on, the Stats people came out with figures to show that GDP growth actually went up in Ramazan! And this in the middle of summer! The govt statistician who told me that little bit of news said that their figures indicated a sharp dip in GDP for that time period but you couldn`t say that Islam (i.e, fasting) was bad for growth!

My maths teacher in high school was actually an Assitant Director or some such rank in the govt stats bureau (he used to moonlight) and he used to regale us with stories of how to cook the figures so that they gave the ``right`` answers. That is of course an old econometric joke: the data was tortured until it confessed.

When I was working in Gilgit, I was trying to get some population figures for the area and I met people--locals--who told me how the numbers had been calculated. People from downcountry--Punjabis--came to carry out the enumeration. Instead of going up to the villages, they simply asked, ``Have you been there? Yes? Great! How large do you think it is? No, that doesn`t sound right, must be larger. So how many people do you think it could be?`` You get the general idea.

As per the official 1998 census figures, Pakistan`s population was 130.8 million. You can place as much reliance on that as you wish. I would certainly like to think its this and not the 157 million that YLH quotes--which is by far the highest figure I have seen.

And of course there is the recent admission of the military govt that the Nawaz Sharif govt had been cooking the books, so that our budget deficit was something like twice as big as had been reported.

#68,71,72,73

Site URLs are fine. One can start/open a new website using free space at(Xoom, Fortune city, Webpages, Geocities, etc. etc. etc.}name it, ``URLs AND printouts galore``; ``site redundancy par excellance``! ``Bharat Redundancy``!

``Bharitya Overkill Clipping Service``. ``Space destroyers`` and ``Cyber, Lord Shivas R.us`` !

As the readers have pointed out very cogently this service is great (as all clipping services) but their place is not here.

It indicates laziness of mind and body, both, of posters as well as of the readers. Readers don`t want to move from their couches, the posters don`t wish to write a word of their own making! Shoo...

#1

Did all these well-organised and well-united traders organisations resisting tax documentation with such determination ever go on strike or down shutters with so much show of strength to protest or resist the corruption and bribe demands of tax officials?

Sadhana

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/shtml/NEWS/P8S3.shtml

HOW WE BOUGHT NUCLEAR BOMB FOR JUST POUNDS 20,000

Sunday Mirror, UK

Mohajir,

keep up the good work. I find your posts helpful

jay.

Mohajir,

Please dont stop! Thanks to you I have been introduced to sites I didnt know existed on the web. Keep up the good work!

Cheraym #68

URLs are enough. We don`t need both the URL //AND// the reproduction. It is redundant.

Your letter betrays a condescending and patronizing attitude -- unnecessary -- and re-inforces the suspicion of laziness on the part of those who, as the kindergarten children, like to be fed information pablum rather than doing their own reading.

ASAD k 62

You are rght on Mohajir in Karachi. Because they were concentrated in one place. Also because of multiple groups in Karachi from different parts of India and also from different parts of Pakistan, Urdu was a convenient language.

In punjab most people I think migrated from East Punjab and Kashmir and easily assimilated with local people. Moreover since Punjabi was language of communication predominantly other migrants absorbed that.

It can be compared to Bengal where migrants learned Bengali because of communication.

Mohajir is providing a great service by giving the sites. All of us may not have enough time to find the relevant articles/documents. One way of avoiding would be simply don`t read them if you don`t want to.

Please Mohajir and others who are providing information, keep it up. It only reinforces the standard of Chowk.

Regards

Sorry, YLH, depending on whom you believe, India crossed the 1 billion mark between May 1999 and May 2000. The difference in estimates is because of different estimates of the growth rate of the population.

Since the UN, WHO, etc. made a huge noise about India crossing the billion mark I`m surprised you missed it.

The World Fact book on the www.cia.gov page will give you the stats. that I quoted as being from the CIA. Specific URLs are :

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/in.html#people

(for India population stats) and

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/pk.html#people

(for Pakistan population stats).

The PPP numbers -- I have already given you the URL. Incidentally the UNDP website says that the next UNDP report is due in late June.

Now, both the economic and population figures are subject to error of some unspecified amount, so I would not take a few percent to be a significant difference.

You are a student, you should not let facts upset you so much. You can`t really argue against opinions, such as that in the current article, it is virtually impossible to change someone`s mind, especially on these kind of forums. You can respect the facts, however.

---

Venturing into the realm of opinion, I don`t particularly care for this article. In my opinion, fifty years is a short time in the life of a nation. The doom-and-gloom about Pakistan doesn`t impress me very much either.

It is true that Pakistanis in Pakistan today have fewer ready tools to solve their problems than they did five years ago. But the people remain capable of creating new tools. You all -- Pakistani liberal and Pakistani fundamentalists alike -- just want to use scare tactics to get everyone to accept your Point-Of-View, using the argument that the national survival depends on it. Actually, half your problems will evaporate the day y`all realize that the nation is not critically dependent on whether you agree, provided you agree to disagree. On that same day you will have the tools to attack the other half of the problems.

In the meantime, for each of you Pakistanis who says that democracy can`t work in Pakistan, there will be a like number of Indians crowing about Indian democracy. I guess you`ll just have to tolerate it until the next general elections in Pakistan.

-arun gupta

Mohajir #56

Please advise. Not the first time it has happened. For about half the time URLs provided by you have not delivered the putatively promised news:

[//]File Not Found[//]

The requested URL /shtml/NEWS/P9S1.shtm was not found on this server.

There was also some additional information available about the error:

[Wed May 31 03:40:16 2000] access to

/data/www/v-clients/www.sundaymirror.co.uk/htdocs/shtml/NEWS/P9S1.shtm failed for 24.64.3.139,

[//]reason: File does not exist[//]

Mohajir?

The following is from a reproduction from one of the posts on this board.

My bainty: Please spare us now from this ``clipping service``. Enough is enough. If you don`t have anything to say, or can`t say it, then be kind and not make us re-read the Washington Post or The Friday Times. Pleeeazee?



http://www.washtimes.com/world/default-2000526231746.htm

Mohajir?

The following is from a reproduction from one of the posts on this board.

My bainty: Please spare us now from this ``clipping service``. Enough is enough. If you don`t have anything to say, or can`t say it, then be kind and not make us re-read the Washington Post or The Friday Times. Pleeeazee?



http://www.washtimes.com/world/default-2000526231746.htm

ok ...

interesting how people like Macgupta jump from statistics to statistics ... whats the PPP by the CIA record that you quote .....2000 to 1750 ...

by the way Pakistan`s population stands at 157 million out of which 98% are Muslims ....

and India`s population has 12 to 13% Muslims so I dont know about the statistics there ....

India`s population is approximately 970 million ...

Now ... when you talk about this ... you also have to include the other predominantly Muslim country .. which is Bangladesh ... and they have 80 Million Muslims there atleast ....

I could of course be wrong but I found it quite reassuring that the Sunni-Shia riots of yesteryear really no longer occur. Now violence is not so much community-spread, but the acts of the fanatics on both sides (and no, this is not implying that that means we should ignore it.. and yes, the Sunni fanatics are far more active than the Shias). Was I wrong in thinking this had happened, or in taking it as an encouraging sign if it had?

Regarding immigrants, did the Muhajirs in Karachi choose to maintain their own identity because of their concentration in numbers, compared with those who settled in the Punjab? Also, how much of it is due to Karachi being the original capital? Was there a Muhajir-centricity of bureaucracy not unlike what is considered the Punjab-centricity of todays government apparatus?

AFAIK, in the 1991 Indian census, Jammu and Kashmir was left out, because militants threatened to kill census workers; and areas of India`s northeast were left out, supposedly because the (large) number of immigrants to the area was a politically explosive issue. So current estimates of population are based on projections; after the 2000-01 census is completed, better stats. should be available.

AFAIK, the last Pakistani census was in 1998. So, perhaps Pakistani figures are a little more accurate.

Given that, the CIA pages list India as having a little over a billion population in July 1999, with 14% Muslims population, and Pakistan as having 138 million in July 1999, 97% of whom are Muslim. You do the math. Statistically, I think it is a dead heat.

-arun gupta

Interesting opinions on democracy in India, what works, what doesn`t work, what`s broken, what`s getting fixed, etc. :

http://www.ned.org/pubs/india/report.html

Facts :

PPP GDP per capita, as per the UNDP 1999 Human Development report :

http://www.undp.org/hdro/Backmatter1.pdf

the table on page 13 of 44 :

PPP $per capita, 1997

India : 1670

Pakistan : 1560

( However, take all of these with healthy skepticism, my guess is that these are +/- 10% figures at best). If you go to the World Bank site and read about poverty alleviation in India, you will find that Indian statistics, while excellent by third world standards, have these 10% discrepancies. I`m assuming that Pakistan is no better. So, it is a statistical dead heat).

-arun gupta

Re: Amin Saleh #53

To be honest, as far as I know the Aga Khan never actually said that we should oppress the non-Muslims--given how far from mainstream Islam his sect is, that would have been an amazing thing for him to advocate. What I believe he said was that no Muslim could oppose Arabic. The implication for oppressing non-Muslims is obvious from that. I thought the little smiley face winking made it clear but I should not have assumed so.

Quite right that Lebanon, Syria, Israel, Egypt, etc have large Arabic-speaking non-Muslim minorities, but you cannot seriously hope to argue that in S. Asia Arabic is identified with anything other than Islam.

The author says:

``The Sunnis and the Shias hate each other and murder is the common currency between them. In Karachi, the locals and the Muhajirs (who were enticed to migrate to the Islamic paradise) go about killing each other without stopping for breath. ``

``It is difficult to find in Pakistan any two communities that are willing to tolerate each other.``

Inaccurate exaggeration or not, fundamental issues being root cause of conflicts or not, there is something to be understood in terms of problem-solving by authorities.

The horrific instances of communal violence in India and the urban street-violence related to gangs and drugs in the West have been tackled in the past with `community` policing.

In many areas afflicted by communal violence in India, the police would meet with the neighbourhood heads of communities to look for ways to reduce tensions. It has often worked, even premptively, on occasions when tensions and violence is anticipated. Having such a mechanism has yielded benefits, communal violence usually doesnot recur in the same localities.

There used to be violence every year in Lucknow between two Muslim sects during Muharram Tazia processions. One year, the UP CM one year sat down with leaders of both communities and worked out compromises and that has improved matters. Religious processions during major festivals all over India are also possible with minimal violence due to similar efforts.

In the West, to avoid armed confrontation between criminals and the police, in some cities, the police informs and consults community leaders (even church leaders) of their intention to move against a suspect in the neighbourhood. Often, the community leaders persuade the suspect to surrender. Such cooperation has helped reduce the tension between the community being policed and the police.

The responsibility of law-enforcing and ensuring safe communities thus depends on cooperation between the communities being affected and the law-enforcers.

While `big-league` urban violence maynot be within reach of such methods, still, it was extremely discouraging to hear Gen PM. dismiss the scholar Ludhianvi`s assassination vaguely as the `foreign` hand. Such statements seem to delay the day sectarian outfits are held responsible for loss in `quality of life` of their parent communities. They also delay the day that common people confront the possibility that these outfits may be not really rooted or invested in the communities they reside and operate in, and that they consider themselves answerable only to their sponsors from far away.

Any rebuttals are OK with me.

Sadhana

http://www.washtimes.com/world/default-2000526231746.htm

Chechen guerrillas are said to be training in terrorism

By Ben Barber

THE WASHINGTON TIMES

``The latest reports are that hundreds of families came from Chechnya through Pakistan and settled in Afghanistan. It`s an ongoing thing,`` Abdullah Abdullah said during a visit to Washington this week.

``The reality is that from the Middle East to the Caucus to Central Asia, terrorists from all over the world are given sanctuary by the Taleban in areas of Afghanistan under their control.``

The diplomat`s claim dovetails with reports in the Russian media, which say several hundred Chechen families are encamped near the northern Afghanistan city of Mazar-i-Sharif and a military training camp has been set up nearby.

Russia Thursday renewed a threat to bomb the training camps despite warnings from Pakistan and the United States that an attack could destabilize Central Asia.

Mr. Abdullah, who serves with the U.S.-recognized rump government headed by President Burhanuddin Rabbani, warned that bombing the Chechen training camps in Afghanistan would prove futile.

``Thousands more will take their place,`` he said.

Mohammad Eshaq, the permanent representative in Washington of the Afghan resistance, said that in recent years Afghanistan has been used by Pakistan as a training base for groups attacking India in Kashmir. Now the training phenomenon has spread to groups seeking to overthrow governments from Chechnya to western China, he said.

Mr. Eshaq said the Chechens set up an embassy in Kabul three months ago and have been collecting money in mosques in Pakistan.

Mr. Abdullah, who has been meeting with U.S. officials, said there are 5,000 Pakistanis training in Afghanistan for guerrilla war and terrorism in Indian-held Kashmir.

Besides the Pakistanis, Mr. Abdullah said, another 5,000 guerrillas come from the Middle East, Chechnya, the Philippines and other areas where Muslim extremists are seeking power.

Many of the fighters get to cut their teeth in warfare with the Taleban, which controls about 85 percent of Afghanistan, against Mr. Abdullah`s resistance government, which controls areas northeast of the capital, Kabul.

Mr. Abdullah said the main training bases for the Chechens, Pakistanis and even Uighurs from western China are at Char-asiab and Rishkhore, about eight miles south of Kabul.

``We captured people from Pakistan, some Arabs, people from Burma, Uighurs from China and some Central Asians,`` he said.

Muslim terrorists from the Philippines, where the Abu Sayyaf group is holding some two dozen Western tourists and Filipinos hostage, also have been captured fighting against the resistance, according to Western sources.

Mr. Abdullah said the key to ending terrorism based in Afghanistan is Pakistan`s Inter-Service Intelligence agency. ``The ISI is behind all these activities,`` he said.

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/shtml/NEWS/P9S1.shtml

Sunday Mirror, UK

PAKISTAN MUST ACT TO HALT THIS THREAT TO WORLD PEACE

THE export of nuclear capacity from Pakistan is a deadly threat to the region and the world.

Pakistan must stop the trade which the Sunday Mirror has exposed.

It`s no good for their government to say they have no control over third parties or private companies who sell nuclear materials. If they were determined to put a stop to this they could.

When nuclear material falls into the hands of private parties parties it is a short step to getting into terrorist hands.

There is a link between Pakistan`s exports of nuclear capability and terrorism. The country is rapidly becoming a threat to world peace.

I will investigate this matter and take action to alert the international community, the United Nations and other bodies as to what is going on in Pakistan.

Give the people something to look forward to.

#: 18
Fuzair

quote

This is why the late Aga Khan recommended to Mr. Jinnah that he declare Arabic to be the national language, pointing out that only the non-Muslims could oppose that and we were going to oppress them anyway ;-).

unquote

Would you kindly tell me where you got this from that Aga Khan pointed out that only non-Muslims would oppose that and they would be opressed anyway.

As I understand it, Arabic is not only the language of Muslims. Please read religious statistics of Lebanon and other Arab countries, it would be clear from that what I mean.

I have just added an elaborate Bulletin Board to my site on the subjects of ``Subcontinent Affairs, Arts & Literature, Philosophy, Science``

Please follow the link ``Zeemax`s Bulletin Board`` on www.angelfire.com/zine/gomal

Rgds.