A Rumor Of Lies

RE: Sadhna Reply# 21

Thanks for challenging the spirit of Pakistan. Lets see what our analysts, thinkers, activists, and writers have to say.

Ferozk #16

Thanks for your response.

``The questions you have asked can only be answered by the Pakistanis if, a big if at that too, they develop a national identity.``

Ferozk, I`m assuming you are a Pakistani too? So, as a Pakistani, you could undertake to answer :-):

What conduct and what actions are required of the Pakistani people, specifically, that will decide Pakistan`s future?

Make up plenty delegations to go meet Gen PM? Demand daily press conferences? Make a human chain from Karachi to NWFP(?)? Give up a months salary toward the exchequer? Organise multi-religious/multi-sect gatherings? Campaign for surrender of arms? Organise folk festivals? Go on `aamaran anshan`(fast-unto-death)? Organise `bhoo-daan` and `shram-daan`? Hold a `unity-shanti-yagna` (tauba-tauba, but TOT from across the border is possible :-))

Leaving frivolity aside, though, it would be interesting to understand practical measures?

Sadhana

RE: Gymnosophist Reply # 15

I apologize if I have offended you with my harsh choice of words- my mistake.

Beside my inherent prejudices, being a Pakistani, common sense and logic do not suggest that India is a model state to follow. I am sorry to say but 52 years of democracy and secularism has only changed the color of ruling class from white to brown. The system of exploitation and social injustice are still alive and well. (Please subtract Kashmir and caste system from my statement). Bureaucracy still preys on an ordinary Hindustani (regardless of caste). Police treats masses as herds of cows. Politicians are evasive on the issues of Social Justice. The list is never ending.

Sounds like a story of my (Pakistan`s) life eh? I hate to say that but unfortunately I have to say it, ``Anything but India – Thank you very much``.

Regards

Ferozek:#16

Sorry to disappoint you Dr.Kevorkian,it is your job which is on line.

Pakistan is boisterous,joyous,full of energy and kick & screaming and is poised to assert what it is supposed to be.The 5% Ba Ba Blacksheep are not a reflection of Pakistan and the bleatings of such is a sign that the lions sniffing too close.

__________________________________________________

The religion of Hindus is the land.Do not let any --ism fool you.Conquerers & invaders do not bother them.They adjust.Their caste system is in their psyche & language,therefore they are willing to co-operate & co-opt any alien creed simply to survive on their land---the other alternative is to cease to be hindus or be a closet hindu.This is evident aplenty in farangi-lands.

Crossing Indian rivers & oceans is going to nirgh for them.The miniscule few Ba Ba Blacksheep who disavow this & still claim to be the mickey-mouse version of hinduism have every right to be apologetic & embarrassed.

I am happy that with all its `faults` Pakistan is not meek & dormant and therefore never cowed down.

__________________________________________________

``If Hindus adopt the concept of socialism,they

would cease to be hindus,but if muslims do so then they will be returning to the true teachings of Islam``

A L L A M A IQBAL

(from memory ---------words may not be exact)

__________________________________________________wassalaam

RE: FerozK, Reply # 16

Implementation of Social Justice in Pakistan- lets see-there are several ways to look at this issue.

1) Pakistani people do not need or do not deserve social justice-end of story

2) Pakistani people need social justice but since we don’t know a way, therefore the way does not exist.

3) Pakistani people need social justice since we do not know a way, we must work together to find a way

Take your pick.

The people who are gifted with the power of reasoning and knowledge, like yourself, spend all their time thinking how a thing can NOT be done. If you spend half the time thinking how it CAN be done, it will be done.

May be our way of thinking is incorrect. We assume that we can implement or achieve anything through Establishment. Have you ever thought that the very Establishment is responsible for denying Social Justice in the society? An upper echelon of society has vested interests in that and by implementing Social Justice they will have to give up all their self-assumed ``privileges``.

It is true that we can never achieve a Utopian dream but if we don’t know where we are going we sure will never get there.

I agree with the gist of your article and appreciate your time and efforts in putting together a detailed article dealing with the internal contradictions between the most powerful elements with each looking after their own vested interests.

In my opinion, the situation is even more complex than a simple case of competing-collaborating military-bureaucracy-feudals troika. There are actually two troika working simultaneously, the other being military-traders-Islamists.

The traders generally being conservative, have historically sided with the Islamists. The recent appeasing attitude of the military towards Islamists is a compensation for their deteriorating relationship with the traders. In the past, miltary being the commom denominator simultaneously in two troikas, have more often played the role of a middle-man instead of a bridge. They have frequently pitted one against the other for their own interests and seldom played the role of a fire extinguisher. That is the reason, both BB and NS were absolutely helpless in controlling sectarian violence, drugs smuggling and gun culture because same groups were also fighting for the ``strategic interests of Pakistan in Afghanistan and Kashmir (as defined by the military)``. Well, if you can not fight them; join them for the safeguards of your vested interests. That is why most feudals and other groups have more often sided with the military establishment than opposing them.

The notion of devolution of power under military establishment is self-contradictory. I do not doubt much about Pervez Musharraf`s personal integrity or desires but he represents an institution more than himself. He is not going to play the role of Gorbachov or F. W. deClerk, to undermine his own power base. Two possible scenario which maight emerge from devolution of power are: 1) Elections in 2 1/2 years on non-party basis. This was tried before by Zia and resulted in the most feudal parliament in the history of Pakistan. Instead of few horse trading all 212 members were up for horse trading. It is the worse of all possible devolutions. 2) More importantly, if devolution results in independent minded, honest and sincere representative government which does not play the role of second fiddle to various vested interests is a disaster for military establishment. What if they chose to be dovish vis-a-vis relationship with India? Actually, any sincere government would be more tuned to easing tension with India for the sake of peace and prosperity of Pakistanis. What if they want to pull the plug from Afghanistan and Kashmir adventures?

Bureaucracy runs the country, politicians and military don`t. I believe that going after the bureaucracy is more of a public relation ploy than anything else. Removing one set of bureaucrat and replacing with another is nothing new.

The solution to Pakistan`s problems lie in the dismantling of the powers of all elite groups simultaneously. A selective destruction of one by the other is no solution.

Re: Urstruly # 11

Granted, the article is a rcap of the last 50 yrs, but what have we done or accomplished in the last 50 yrs we could be proud of ?

Nothing; nichts; nada; zilch; zero; and still nyet!!!! The article basically was premised on the notion that nothing happens in Pakistan or will ever happen in the future, because of a lack of implementation.

Social justice?!!! By whom for whom? Social justice has a nice ring to it, but in a society like Pakistan`s where the civic society has disappeared altogether, it would be impossible to achieve it, because again, who is going to implement or enforce its provisions? Urstruly, I admire your (misguided) passion for Pakistan, but before you start thinking ahead to a vision of an utopian bliss in Pakistan; just remember one thing. There are no insititutions in Pakistan to implement any ideals of social justice and for that we have to rebuild our civic culture and base it on the notions of tolerance and plurality of opinions and not on a justice based on the whims of an AK-47.

Urstruly, if you can tell me how social justice is going to be implemented in Pakistan, I will support you for the office of the Prime Minister, located in that brothel by the hills!

Re: Sadna # 10

The questions you have asked can only be answered by the Pakistanis if, a big if at that too, they develop a national identity. In Pakistan, people value their provincial ties first, their religious sects second and their country lastly. Unless Pakistanis become Pakistanis first, this country will always be riven by an internal discord, which will undermine its very foundations.

Pakistanis, as Jay rightly pointed out, are unwilling to look reality in the face and still think, like Ras admonished me, that Pakistan has no problems. In many ways, I think that Ras is correct in the sense that though Pakistan may not be a ``failed state``, it is beyond a shadow of a doubt a dysfunctional state, because of its so many internal contradications, it can not clearly articulate a vision of its own raison d`etre and because of that confusion, nothing ever gets done or implemented here with the result that the country is caught up in a timewarp and still exists in the past and that past is all it has, because the future is gradually slipping away as we debate, decide, announce, declare, and promise to move Pakistan forward!

We are stilling dancing the Pakistani Waltz; two steps forward, two steps backwards, a step to right and a step to left and the result is that we keep standing in one spot though we give the illushion of moving! This government announces, it back tracks, it vacilliates and it remains undecided. Has the country moved, in any direction, in the last eight months? Yes, it has: backwards!!!

My late father used to say, in the early 1980s, that Pakistan would end up like Lebanon and my grandfather used to say, in the 1960s, that we are going to be another Afghanistan: tribal, anarchic, and lawless. I used to scoff at their words and now I wish that I had listened to them!

Sadna, the patient is terminal and he needs to be removed from the life support; the plug really needs to be pulled, because a quick death is better than a lingering death!!!!!!!

Ciao!

Ref Urstruly #: 11

You asked ``If secularism and democracy is marriage made in heaven then why people are still living in India like insects- and I don’t mean just physically. By now, they should have been as well off as Chinese, if not better, at least monetarily.``

Excuse me, the people of India are not living like insects. They have clearly demonstrated a backbone and an independent mind. Indira Gandhi, hailed as Goddess Durga in Dec 1971 was overthrown and lost her own seat in 1977. Rajiv Gandhi elected with an overwhelming majority lost the parliamentary majority in the next election. That tale has been repeated in every state of the Indian Union.

Contrarywise, the Chinese are the insects who have meekly accepted one-party rule for the last 52 years with no hope of ever overthrowing the Communists. If you were born in Tibet or Sinkiang, you would not care for the per capita income which is skewed by the wealth of coastal southern China.

I know your current hero is China. Why don`t you move to rural China (particularly the mountainous states with poor soil) and find out how the peasants eke out a living?

The last time a Chinese-style slum clearance was undertaken in India was by Sanjay Gandhi in 1978. The result was the unseating of the Congress party in the next election. Nor do Indian women queue up to open their wombs for abortion in the 9th month, as is happening in China.

If you guys in Pakistan follow the Chinese policy on birth control, your population growth will also drop.

Jesus, don`t you even know what is happening around you?

Dear Observer:

Here you are contradicting yourself from your earlier post when we encouraged Mohajir to post the useful sites. However, your contradiction is more than welcome. This is just a wondeful news that many of us were waiting for. Is the light at the end of tunnel really? I will forward this mail to who I can.

Thanks for your contradiction.

cheraym

NUCLEAR TRIGGERS AND RELIGIOUS MANIACS:

The concerns about religious maniacs acquiring weapons of mass destruction in a society like this are genuine. Having said that we must understand the chances of some splinter group in Europe or North America doing it will always remain and their access the nuts and bolts may be easier than in a third world backwater. What about the hair raising possibility of a mad life sciences going crazy and trying to invent a virus that goes after specific races..

Once again I draw the attention of the Chowkwalas to the fact that a rotten environment of alienation is being created in Pakistan that will make all of the above a possibility. We have crooked bankers trying to bankrupt companies for personal and crooked bureaucrats detrailing reform. A million people unemployed and a marginal standard of living worsened as a result of the IMF prescriptions is as dangerous as having fissile material at the hands of a sophisticated terrorist group...

[borrowed]From South Asia Citizens Web May 31, 2000

Saw it. Thought it might inyerest some.

[ The below message from ... . (a Peace activist from Pakistan) explains the Peace Banner campaign; Recently such banners for peace and in opposition to Nuclear bombs were made and put up in Pakistan to mark the 2nd anniversary of the Pakistani Nuclear tests (may 98).

Cloth Banner Campaign for the 6th August

Dear All,

This is a follow up msg. I`m sending this msg to friends in Pakistan and India (and to overseas Indo-Pak friends). Clothe banner campaign was a huge success despite the fact that we started it on the 11th May and collected signatures till 28th May. Diversity of messages, colours and languages made it into such an interesting cloth banner spread over more than 100 meters.

Thanks to friends in Karachi (Piler), Lahore (Shirkat Gah, Labour Party, Amnesty International, Peshawar (Sungi), Quetta (Naela Qadri) and all

others Islamabad based NGOs and students at the Khuldunia High School, Quaid-iAzam University and the Hamdard University. Messages from Quetta were

particularly touching with young school children printing their hands and painting wonderful things on the clothe. Needless to say, Dr. Nayyar`s and

Shandana`s contributions made a crucial difference.

I have received some banners after the 28th May. It gives a sense that we should continue this campaign. I would suggest the following:

1) we should keep on getting signatures in Pakistan. Pakistan NGO Federation can play a crucial role in this regard. If we are able to get signatures from various rural and urban communities with which most NGOs work, it would

be a massive contribution to the campaign.

2) various peace groups in India should initiate this campaign over there.

I`ll explain the details for our Indian friends.

a) divide the white clothe into one meter @ one meter square pieces.

b) write one liner main msg for peace (bread not bombs etc.) with a bold marker in the middle.

c) ask people to write their messages for peace (or against nuclear weapons), names, signatures and date around the main message.

d) if possible please use bold pens of various colours (some of the pieces of clothe were signed by ballpoint pen and they were not readable) and the messages should be spread out on the piece of clothe.

e) by 1st august, those pieces of cloth should be stitched together and after every three-four pieces, extra clothe should be added to create space for a bamboo stick,

f) once all the clothe pieces are stitched together, then insert 7 feet long (half inch diameter) bamboo sticks just before the demonstration. These sticks will hold the banner.

3) overseas friends can mail the banners to groups in India and Pakistan.

If that`s not feasible then they can send email messages and we can paste email print outs on our banners.

What Do We Do With These Banners?

I would suggest we should use them as a vote of no confidence against nuclear weapons by the subcontinent`s silent majority. We should organise a huge press publicity campaign to spread the msg of these banners across to the decision-makers and war mongers in India and Pakistan. Right now i can

think of 2 options:

[i] Peace groups in India and Pakistan can march to Wagha border and demonstrate these hundreds of meter long banner with signatures for peace on

the both side of the border,

[ii] If that`s not a feasible option and people want to consider a more local way to display these signatures, then we can go and symbolically wrap the important government building in each city with these long banners. For example, if we get enough signatures in Islamabad, Lahore, Karachi, Quetta and Peshawar to make a banner in each city, the we can walk to the President`s House in Islamabad and the governor houses in the respective provinces to mark the day. Indian groups can do the same in their cities.

Please pass on this message to all the people on your mailing lists.

Dear Khan,

Your article, basically, is a lengthy recap of what we have been hearing for the past 5 decades.

Democracy: The sacred cow#1- Hardly 30% of the Pakistani population casts votes. Conservative estimates put this percentage down to 20%. It is also a common knowledge how people are dragged down to polling stations to cast votes-the percentage could easily go down to 10%. Why 70% of the population doesn’t care about the political process?

Secularism: Sacred cow #2. If secularism and democracy is marriage made in heaven then why people are still living in India like insects- and I don’t mean just physically. By now, they should have been as well off as Chinese, if not better, at least monetarily. (Please look beyond the Barbie world presented in Indian Movies and MTV)

Religion: Sacred Cow #3 and also the Scapegoat# 1 (in Pakistani context). So far it has been an excellent tool for exploiting masses. Have you ever wondered why people after being cheated time and again throughout the history of Pakistan still put religion ahead of everything? There are two possibilities. The first possibility is that people are stupid. The second possibility is that, may be they understand the difference and they are absolutely convinced that the religion is the only way to bring social justice into the society. (This is a question not a statement).

The keyword is SOCIAL JUSTICE. Nobody talks about it; even if they do it’s mentioned as a non-issue. No system of governance can be successful unless it delivers the Social Justice and I don’t mean just the distribution of wealth-there should be social justice in law and order, economics, and governance as well. It means that lawmakers make laws that are equally applicable to the President of the country and to the most downtrodden in the society. Lawmakers not only make absolutely sure that the law is enforced properly, but they also device ways to close all the holes in it. When you see people getting excited about the ``Talibanian`` mode of imparting justice, its not that they get some sort of gratification for their psychotic inner selves-it is the philosophy behind it, that is, Social Justice. (The last sentence is also a question not a statement).

Just got a couple of questions:

``...the future of Pakistan rests in the dissatisfied hands of the Pakistani people themselves and it will be their conduct, which will determine, for better or worse, what Pakistan will look like in the next decade...``

What conduct and what actions are required of the Pakistani people, specifically, that will decide Pakistan`s future?

``...the people of Pakistan have to take a decision; self-interest or national interest and on the basis of this decision history will record its final verdict on Pakistan...``

Again, specifically, what constitutes self-interest versus what constitutes national interest in which key decisions that Pakistani people are to make?

``The only question is that the do the Pakistanis know the choices confronting them?``

What are those choices?

Sadhana

Re: Ras # 7

I was not hitting Pakistan when it was down. I was merely stating a fact of reality, which is not so evident from across the Pacific or Atlantic, but it is from ``ground zero``.

Helping the drought victims is a western ``feel good`` wish, but the GoP is not interested in helping those poor souls and that problem, of a drought, is not a problem in Pakistan anymore, because we are following Dr. Schultz`s advice.

Re: Temporal

Points accepted. The article was not about the economy per se, but it was about the role of the bureaucracy in the affairs of Pakistan and its inability to change for the better. Like you said a long time ago: the whole structure is rotten to the core and it is time to kick it in and start all over again! The intent of the article was to look at the process of devolution of power and not the economy itself.

Re: Jay

Quit being an optimist. It does not suit you!!

Ciao!

Ras Siddiqui #7

I completely, totally and whole heartedly agree with you. There is too much of negetivity about pakistan, it is time to look at some positive aspects. I am still looking for some positive reports, real events in pakistan.

Too much analysis along the beaten track, cheated by the americans, corrupt politicians, jinnahs speach, the 2% theorists, the accident theorists, mullah haters.

Look at the reality, look at the failure to amend blasphemy laws, look at the reports on talibanisation, look at whether the 2% has changed, look at the impossibility of peace with india, look at the terms of the peace agreements- the school books will be changed and the history of pakistan will be changed- look at reality in the face.

Try to push pakistan along the current path. The alleged `great` islamic republic evolving in Iran is the outcome of a Shah followed by Khomeni. You had the Bhutto days, time for the Pervez Musharaff Khomeni. Join the jihadists.

This article could have been one tenth its
length and still could have managed to say what
CHOWK is now quite accustomed to.
By that I mean, get out the razor blades and
commit national suicide! Pakistan is has gone down
the tubes, it is a lost cause, nothing works, we
are going to be finished soon.
Little is said about the simplest of solutions
to our many ailments. That being a focus on treating ALL of our own fellow countrymen with
kindness and respect each other irrespective of ethnic, religious or gender background.
The biggest danger to Pakistan today comes from
its uninvited entry into the Nuclear Club. And
someone please rejuvinate the exact year that this
``failed state`` idea showed up? Does it coincide
with the implementation of Pressler and the time
when the Russians withdrew from Pakistan?
Pakistan will need to make many changes that
the ``World`` is asking it to make. But economic
default will not finish the country (If only
Mahboob ul Haq were alive today...)
So F.R., at the risk of sounding too harsh, the
incredible amount of energy that you have used up
to write this mini-thesis could have been better
used to try and raise some money for the drought
victims of Pakistan (at this very moment).
There are certain rules to this gentlemenly discourse here on CHOWK. ``You do not hit a man
or a country when it is down``.
I was Pakistan`s biggest critic during the
Zia Dictatorship and during 1971. But at that
time nobody would listen because Pakistan had
very powerful friends. Now that it is facing
``High Noon`` alone, let us not all get ready to ride into the sunset with a country that needs
nothing else but a much needed dose of reality.

Ras