Just another cry in the dark

sac #84

``Sorry no India!..``

sac, don`t worry so much, We hear a lot worse and somehow don`t feel the need for any endorsement for what constitutes many many Indians` life experiences.

That out of the way, here are some simple questions: How to define individual good for a large number of people who got to `live` together? In other words how to maximise sum(individual_good_for_i) over all i? Does collective good always militate against individual good? Didn`t humans form groups for better hunting in the good old days?

Does a representative body or a collective always play the role of omniscient overlordship, a controlling father figure, or can such a body represent the collective will of a group of individuals come together to further their individual interests?

Sadhana

PS: Donot most desis around here drive around at 80-90mph secure in the knowledge that there is consensus on road rules? Is that sort of consensus benefitting the individual or not? (Lets not go into depletion of non-renewable energy sources :-))

re vicky and sadhana:

You raise some very interesting issues. There is a symbiotic relationship beween capitalism and democracy however the presence of one does not necesarily mean the automatic presence of the other. Actually a lot of problems facing the third world countries can be attributed mainly to the presence of democracy(Go ahead take a deep breath Sadhana :). In my mind any form of ``ism`` should exist solely to help the individual decide his or her own lot in life. The problem arises when the state decides to act as a regulating body faking a higher moral or intellectual pretense to derive its authority. Captitalistic/democratic societies like most of Europe or the US (sorry no India!!) somewhat work because the state acts only as a referee or arbiter and not as a all-knowing father figure. Even in the US, I would argue there is a dilution of capitalistic values where the state is using the judicial mechanisms to indirectly exert undue influence. Examples of such a behaviour would be the various anti-trust cases or debates involving taxing e-commerce revenues.

The problem with consensus or common good is that it somehow presumes omniscience on the part of some mandarins who are head and shoulders above the individual. You may define democracy to be the rule of the majority. To me its the supremacy of the individual. Any form of ``government`` no matter what the moniker can be termed not only democratic but capitalistic also if it fulfills that definition.

Vicky:

When I remarked that nobody controls the world economy, I meant that nobody has a magic lever to effect the world economy IN THE WAY THAT THEY WANT. I am not belittling the power of the state to effect the common man. My contention is that the incredible linkages and competitive pressures in today`s economies make their control an impossibility. A 24-year old trader with a touch of a few buttons can move more capital from one nation to the other than the the combined GNPs of 90% of the world`s nations(and if he turns out to be wrong he could be out of a job for the rest of his life :). Contrary to popular belief Wall street would be the first place to go out of business if the world happened to have perfect capitalism!! Its precisely because we have governments and commissions who think they know best that imperfections(and thereby profit opportunities) exist in the marketplace. All the scenarios you`ve mentioned can be illustrated to have linkages that may cause them to do the opposite of what is actually intended. Name one and the reason why someone would do it and I`ll explain further.

later

-sac

In response to Ferozk (Reply # 80)

Dear Feroz:

Your statement: ``. . . selling Iranian natural gas to India via Pakistan is appealing to the economic would be wizards, but they are afraid of the green turban wearing crowd and if my information is correct, the two groups will reach a compromise: gas to India in exchange for Fridays as a holidays and the legalization of killing women as a means of reaffirming male honor in Pakistan!!``

Comment: The legalization of killing women seems unbelievable. How trustworthy is your source? Please elaborate.

Sac,

I hear what you say. But the problem have is that you are looking at the cost of Socialism but not at the benefits. Also remember that democratic socialism, as practised in India was/is the choice of a multiparty democracy over 50 years and several elections. This choice cannot be compared to a fascist Shiv Sena or Mullah type govt.

I find issue with a couple of your contentions:

``...I do agree that complex societies like India may not have frictionless dynamics of movement of capital but if it wants to compete globally it will have to give up the luxury of decision by consensus...``

Isn’t capitalism by definition democratic? How then can consensus be a luxury ? It is fundamental to capitalism. This concept is actually more complex than it looks, eg - if a smaller section of society wants to do things differently(commercially) from the majority, should they be allowed to do that in the name of capitalism & democracy or should the majority’s decision be imposed on them ? In the US, the majority’s choice leads towards capitalism, in India towards socialism. Who is right ?

Even in the US, If the majority wishes, MS can be split. Is this socialism or capitalism? What is pure capitalism anyway? Does it exist ? Can pure capitalism be imposed on a public without the “luxury of consensus” ? (Who is John Galt ? ; -)

“…And contrary to the media hype about Greenspan and the Fed and other such non-entities nobody really controls the world economy..”

I cannot disagree enough. The governments influence the economy almost totally, a collection of governments influence the world economy. Small theoretic examples – China raises taxes on exporters to make goods uncompetitive vis-a-vis other countries; Greenspan increases interest rates by 5% this year; Saudi Arabia, Iran and Kuwait decide to cut oil production by 30%; US stops issuing H1Bs; India bans exit of Engineers from the country; Indian government removes drug price control; Any government removing trade barriers 100%. Each of these policies can make HUGE - billions of dollars’ difference to the economy of several countries.

The influence(not control) of the governments on economies and consequently our lives are absolute. But it looks like you are doing good on Wall Street or you would not have stated what you did. :-)

Vicky

CIVIL BUREAUCRACY STOPS THE ADVANCE:

The National Accountability Bureau`s offensive was first misdirected into wrong alleys initially. Now that NAB was beginning to understand the civil establishments hand in the muck and in the process of investigating a number of bankers known to be extraordinarily corrupt new regulatins have come in: Only the State Bank can refer a case to NAB. In other words individuals subjected to extortion and criminal blackmail cannot approach NAB. This is purely designed to save the skins of corrupt bankers sharing the loot with finance ministry officials who infact control the State Bank.

Re: Temporal

Thanks for the link...

I was away for a few days trying to meet a schedule and take care of business....

The interacts are progressing as per plan: Indians bash Pakistanis and Pakistanis bash Indians and both remain mired in their own quagmires of hate.

Loved your spiel on the beauty pagent/contest. I think that you should forward a brief description of it to Pakistani cultural attache in Ottawa and I would have helped you out in this matter, but I think our High Commissioner to Ottawa has been recalled. I used to play with the gentleman`s sons when my dad was posted in Ottawa in the early 1980s. He was a first secretary back then. I do not know his replacement, though. Sorry....

I just finished listening to a song by the Eagles, ``the girl from yesterday`` and was wondering what ever happened to Nina....did I ever tell you about Nina...if no, drop me a buzz and I will tell you about her!

Did you hear the news recently? The IT boom in Pakistan is fast turning into a bust as no one wants to pay their taxes and they do have a point! Why pay taxes when you have lived tax free for 53 years and besides, if Pakistan goes down the tubes, they will just migrate to Canada since most of them hold Canadian immigration visas!!! :) From what I have been able to piece together, greed is conflicting with patriotism in the Land of the Pure; selling Iranian natural gas to India via Pakistan is appealing to the economic would be wizards, but they are afraid of the green turban wearing crowd and if my information is correct, the two groups will reach a compromise: gas to India in exchange for Fridays as a holidays and the legalization of killing women as a means of reaffirming male honor in Pakistan!!

Someone once told me that if you look at the year according to the Islamic calender, 1421, that is the year Pakistan is in comparsion to the rest of the world!!!

Ciao!

Mian Mohyuddeen sahib:

Quibla o Kaaba,madd zillahu

Say something janab e vaala while you are in the lime-light(of the monitor).

``Muntazir kub sey tahayyur hai teri taqreer ka

Baat kr! tujh pur gumaan honay laga tasveer ka.

Ahmed Faraaz

tr:Wondering,we are waiting for a while now for your talk.Say something!it already seems to us that you are a photograph(of yourself)!!!

__________________________________________________

wassalaam.

sac #77

It would be interesting to understand sometime what particular aspect of `common good` is the problem, keeping Ms. Rand in mind and also keeping in mind the `dhool-mitti-hawa-pani` of today`s subcontinent.

Sadhana

PS: I remember now I have read the Ayn Rand biography, too.

re arun #74:

Thanks. That was most informative.

re sadhana #73:

I think Ayn Rand`s works should be compulsory reading for anyone still married to the idealized notions of common good(not that i am implying anything here :). She was so much ahead of the times. Thanks for mentioning the book. I`ll take a look at it.

later

-sac

Please edit these articles before you post them. This website used to have intelligent, well thought out writings some time back.

Please look at the Chowk Poll and cast your own vote!

Please look at the Chowk Poll and cast your own vote!

India export data :

http://www.infodriveindia.com/

Last annual (11 months) export stats :

http://www.infodriveindia.com/news/newsshow.asp?theid=2035

Last monthly export stats :

http://www.infodriveindia.com/news/newsshow.asp?theid=3005

Trouble in India`s cotton sector :

http://www.infodriveindia.com/news/newsshow.asp?theid=2609

Synthetic textiles export :

http://www.infodriveindia.com/news/newsshow.asp?theid=253

-arun gupta

temporal #68

That was hilarious!

Sadhana

AI #70

If what you say is right, ``corrupt bankers, civil servants and military officers`` are indebted to the Pakistani government, not the other way, surely?

Sadhana

sac #69

A book I would strongly recommend:

``40 Years of Indian Independence``

Mark Tully, Z. Masani

In it, the quotes from experts about Nehru`s policies bear out what vicky says, that many policies were aimed at correcting the existing sharp socio-economic disparities and at ensuring that India didnot have to import everything that it needed.

There is a whole chapter on `neta-babu raj`, to illustrate the control that bureacrats and political bosses acquired over the economy in the later years(which is why Indian policy has moved toward relaxing controls in the last 10 years). I agree with vicky that Nehru made the right choices at the time. We should have changed tack when these choices outlived their utility by yielding the desired results, when was that, well any experts?

About pure competition, well, I remember a `group skills and negotiating` class which had a negotiation game. In the game, participants were divided into groups, each representing the department of a company. Each department had to accomplish its goal, but didnot have all the resources it needed. Hence, each department had to negotiate with the others, to make deals to acquire what it needed by surrendering some of its own surplus or even nonsurplus resources.

Do you know, at the end of the period granted for negotiation, not one single group was able to successfully negotiate what it required! The instructor told us that in his experience, this was the outcome always :-(. The reason was that none of the groups was willing to make a less than perfect or less than totally advantageous deal for itself. End result, noone got what they needed, nothing got accomplished, the company as a whole suffered from no project going forward.

The moral of the story was, that the total common good has to be considered primary principle in a number of situations, especially in limiting circumstances(such as limited resources), this is true in intra-company situations, in political situations, in interpersonal situations.

The model of pure competition is very beneficial and ought to be followed with vigor in the purely commercial sphere of providing better goods and services than your competitor. Also in situations where there are seemingly-infinite array of resources available with no political ramifications(for eg just let the gas prices and fuel availability begin to pinch).

But IMHO, its dangerous to apply this model blindly in all circumstances and situations, especially political situations(also within ones home and family, for instance:-)).

Take the basics. Political consensus is required or people wouldnot agree to pay taxes or even obey rules in the first place, would you not agree? To establish rules/principles, consensus is required. Thats one end of the spectrum where `new` countries` systems like India/Pakistan currently reside. The other end of the spectrum is the US where the rules/principles are long established and universally accepted, and only tweaks are required here and there to correct deviations.

An example is the many regulations and watchdogs over the US stock markets, to ensure fair rules and fair play. Less-regulated/less-policed stock exchanges say in India or Pakistan may not offer so much `equal` opportunity because of lack of effective consensus for establishing sufficient rules of fair play or for sufficient enforcement of the rules. Common good in this aspect(rules arrived at by consensus) would correspond to individual good as well.

The example I provided about the Indian states and sales tax: well, given that sales tax is a state subject, given that many states are going to lose the not insignificant amount of revenue they earned by undercutting their neighbours, given that most states economies are hovering near the red, given the magnitude of political pressures on the negotiators and that almost the entire population of the country is effected, I think it is overall a good thing to happen, to establish the principle of consensus and level playing field.

SameerJB`s Game Theory article comes to mind and bahmad`s learned response to me once on the concept of `karmabhoomi`.

Sadhana

Ayn Rand: yes, I have read her fictional works, though its been a while. Why do you ask :-)?

re vicky #67:

Interesting perspective on why socialism may not have been such an evil. Let me suggest a hypothetical example. Many a time I`ve heard very well-educated people suggest that the mullahs take over the government in Pakistan or equivalently the goons of the Shive Sena in India. They think that these morons will mess up things so much that the common man will be utterly disgusted and these folks will be gotten rid of forever. Elegant solution except that it doesn`t work. Look at Iran or Afghanistan. The clowns will be gone ultimately but the decade or two that will be lost to their machinations will take another decade or so to cleanup. Can a country afford to lose 2 decades to some lame-duck experiment and still come back as a viable entity? Same thing with India`s experiment with socialism. It has already set India back a couple of decades. Granted that the complex nature of social issues confronting India would bedevil the mind but socialism will never get you anywhere except the bread line.

re sadhna:

funny comment about Ayn Rand but you didn`t say if you read her or not :)

Your example actually illustrates the ineffectiveness of centralized controls. States with higher taxes would have continued to lose revenues till they would have been forced to match the lower rates elsewhere. It wouldn`t be by decree. The frictionless and seamless economies of today demand that as a rule. Capital in any form whether monetary or human gravitates toward higher returns. Do you think if some commission in India decreed that all Indian programmers stay at home and work toward rebuilding the ``nation``, it would happen? Afraid not. I do agree that complex societies like India may not have frictionless dynamics of movement of capital but if it wants to compete globally it will have to give up the luxury of decision by consensus. And contrary to the media hype about Greenspan and the Fed and other such non-entities nobody really controls the world economy. The genie has gone out of the bottle. The bespectacled economists and academics can take their sigmas and deltas and build models all day long. It doesn`t really matter. You and I probably have more effect on the economy than the mythical butterfly flapping its wings on the Canary Islands!!

later

-sac

Temporal#68

This is one of the funniest pieces I ever read in Chowk. You should rewrite it with small notes for non-muslim folks of Chowk. I was wondering why nobody in Chowk was touching on this success story of India. If not anything, these girls are earning lot of foriegn exchanges and some of it comes back to India as tax.

I am sure that Paksitani girls will beat the Indian counterpart if they were participating. Some of my Pakistani girlfriends are just too good-looking.