When Pakistan Defeated Herself...
Crypto June 5, 2000
#60 Posted by shammi on June 15, 2000 6:45:21 am
Re: URSTRULY Reply # 50
Your math is all wrong. 25000 over 10 years works out to about 6.8 deaths per day. Further, this includes all killed -- terrorists, security forces, civilians (muslim, sikh, hindu etc.). Most of the dead were muslim and died at the hands of terrorists for being alleged `collaborators, informants` etc.
Your math is all wrong. 25000 over 10 years works out to about 6.8 deaths per day. Further, this includes all killed -- terrorists, security forces, civilians (muslim, sikh, hindu etc.). Most of the dead were muslim and died at the hands of terrorists for being alleged `collaborators, informants` etc.
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#59 Posted by macgupta on June 15, 2000 6:45:21 am
In (46) I argued that it was the belief that Nawaz Sharif had cost Pakistan a military victory that turned Pakistanis completely against him. The logical next thought, which I did not express, was that there is one person in Pakistan who could contradict the idea of a Pakistani military victory, and who would want to do so, and that is Nawaz Sharif.
I privately thought that he would keep silent in order to extract some price for his silence (e.g., commutation of his jail sentence). He has chosen not to, e.g., http://www.dawn.com/2000/06/13/top1.htm
Sharif`s statements there agree with my belief that India was recovering posts, and was successful in using its air force to interdict supplies to Pakistani posts, and in bombing the posts.
As to Sharif`s claims of hundreds of Pakistanis killed, India claims to have recovered 249 bodies.
India estimates overall the Pakistan Army has suffered 725 all ranks killed, which includes 45 officers and 68 SSG Personnel.
Sharif says the Pakistani soldiers killed in Kargil exceeds that in the 1965 war. However, I do not have the 1965 numbers at hand.
Of course, we have to remember that Sharif has good reasons to make the Pakistani army look bad.
But his dash to Washington has the plausible reasons other than cowardice. Suppose, as I believe, that India was taking back the heights and advancing towards the LOC. If Sharif did nothing, what would Pakistan be left with finally ? As it is, we see evidence of back-door American efforts that might be an outcome of the deal Sharif made with Clinton -- other folks have remarked on this forum that ``something is up``.
-arun gupta
#58 Posted by vineet on June 14, 2000 11:18:30 am
Welcome no longer warm in Taleban ``terrorist`` camp
Reuters-Jun 14 2000 4:11AM ET
RISHKOR, Afghanistan, June 14 (Reuters) - A sign at a camp the West alleges was used to train terrorists says ``Welcome`` in Arabic and Urdu. But it appears the Taleban greeting for Islamic warriors is no longer warm -- the camp is almost deserted.
Stung by a fresh Western drive to break the Taleban`s shield around terrorism suspect Osama bin Laden, the Rishkor camp on the outskirts of the capital, Kabul, was vacated about one month ago, according to the Taleban and people from nearby villages. ``Yes, there were Pakistanis and Arabs here a month ago receiving training,`` said Hashmatullah, a youth from the area. ``Now they have gone to the front.``
The ``front`` is the battle line between the Taleban the opposition led by guerrilla leader Ahmad Shah Masood, who clings to the 10 percent of Afghanistan outside Taleban control since it swept to power nearly four years ago.
Mullah Mohammad Omar, the Taleban`s reclusive leader, denied fresh accusations of giving sanctuary to terrorists when the U.S. State Department said last month that Afghanistan and Pakistan were becoming a new terrorism hub.
But for the Taleban, the line between terrorism and Jihad, or Holy War, is blurred, and does not explain Western intelligence estimates that up to 1,500 foreign militants including Arabs, Chechens and Uzbeks, are in Afghanistan.
The men who trained in Rishkor have melted away into a country which has been at war with the occupying Soviet Union or itself for most of the last two decades.
SHIFTED CAMP
Witnesses said they have merely shifted camp and gone to the Mohammad Agha district of Logar province to the south of Rishkor, where bin Laden has occasionally been sighted.
Or they might have gone to conduct Jihad in Indian Kashmir.
``The Jihad for Kashmir is the starting point of India`s liberation,`` read one slogan written in Urdu on a wall. Another says: ``We are merely fighting for Allah.``
Several hundred diehard Islamic fighters were seen daily training on the now abandoned obstacle courses, firing ranges and ancient artillery pieces that still litter the Rishkor camp.
Not so says Amri Mohammad, the Taleban head of what remains of Rishkor. By his account the camp was used only by Taleban fighters in their war against Masood -- a war the West says is backed by militants from religious schools in Pakistan.
``We didn`t have any foreigners in the past and we don`t have them now. Everyone here is an Afghan saving his own country.``
``We collect our people here before the fighting. If 2,000 men come, 1,000 stay behind and 1,000 go to the frontline. There are 300 fighters here at present, others have gone home, but the time for fighting is come and we`re recalling our men,`` he said.
But the Taleban`s annual summer offensive against Masood appears to be delayed or stalled and diplomats believe the threat of fresh new sanctions being canvassed by the United States and Russia to get bin Laden extradited may be the reason.
Diplomats said U.N. Security Council members were considering fresh Taleban-specific sanctions to augment a November 1999 trade and flight ban aimed at forcing out the man accused of masterminding the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Africa, which killed more than 200.
The multilingual evidence and accounts of local people suggest that the camp was used by foreigners to wage Holy War either in Afghanistan, or in Indian Kashmir or elsewhere.
One sign says Harkatul Jihad Islami, a breakaway faction of Harkatul Mujahideen, a Kashmiri militant group accused of carrying out the year-end hijacking of an Indian airliner to the Taleban`s spiritual capital of Kandahar.
DUSTY VALLEY
The camp, a former military base, is tucked away behind farming land in a dusty valley a half hour`s drive from Kabul.
It was set up weeks after the United States fired cruise missiles against suspected bin Laden training camps in Afghanistan in retaliation for the 1998 bombings in Africa.
Villagers, and even some Taleban fighters, said the camp was closed almost one month ago under pressure from Pakistan, the Taleban`s closest neighbour, ally and supporter.
Pakistan, itself under intense pressure from the West to contain the terrorism virus, wanted it shut to stamp out sectarian violence in Pakistan itself, diplomats said.
Reuters-Jun 14 2000 4:11AM ET
RISHKOR, Afghanistan, June 14 (Reuters) - A sign at a camp the West alleges was used to train terrorists says ``Welcome`` in Arabic and Urdu. But it appears the Taleban greeting for Islamic warriors is no longer warm -- the camp is almost deserted.
Stung by a fresh Western drive to break the Taleban`s shield around terrorism suspect Osama bin Laden, the Rishkor camp on the outskirts of the capital, Kabul, was vacated about one month ago, according to the Taleban and people from nearby villages. ``Yes, there were Pakistanis and Arabs here a month ago receiving training,`` said Hashmatullah, a youth from the area. ``Now they have gone to the front.``
The ``front`` is the battle line between the Taleban the opposition led by guerrilla leader Ahmad Shah Masood, who clings to the 10 percent of Afghanistan outside Taleban control since it swept to power nearly four years ago.
Mullah Mohammad Omar, the Taleban`s reclusive leader, denied fresh accusations of giving sanctuary to terrorists when the U.S. State Department said last month that Afghanistan and Pakistan were becoming a new terrorism hub.
But for the Taleban, the line between terrorism and Jihad, or Holy War, is blurred, and does not explain Western intelligence estimates that up to 1,500 foreign militants including Arabs, Chechens and Uzbeks, are in Afghanistan.
The men who trained in Rishkor have melted away into a country which has been at war with the occupying Soviet Union or itself for most of the last two decades.
SHIFTED CAMP
Witnesses said they have merely shifted camp and gone to the Mohammad Agha district of Logar province to the south of Rishkor, where bin Laden has occasionally been sighted.
Or they might have gone to conduct Jihad in Indian Kashmir.
``The Jihad for Kashmir is the starting point of India`s liberation,`` read one slogan written in Urdu on a wall. Another says: ``We are merely fighting for Allah.``
Several hundred diehard Islamic fighters were seen daily training on the now abandoned obstacle courses, firing ranges and ancient artillery pieces that still litter the Rishkor camp.
Not so says Amri Mohammad, the Taleban head of what remains of Rishkor. By his account the camp was used only by Taleban fighters in their war against Masood -- a war the West says is backed by militants from religious schools in Pakistan.
``We didn`t have any foreigners in the past and we don`t have them now. Everyone here is an Afghan saving his own country.``
``We collect our people here before the fighting. If 2,000 men come, 1,000 stay behind and 1,000 go to the frontline. There are 300 fighters here at present, others have gone home, but the time for fighting is come and we`re recalling our men,`` he said.
But the Taleban`s annual summer offensive against Masood appears to be delayed or stalled and diplomats believe the threat of fresh new sanctions being canvassed by the United States and Russia to get bin Laden extradited may be the reason.
Diplomats said U.N. Security Council members were considering fresh Taleban-specific sanctions to augment a November 1999 trade and flight ban aimed at forcing out the man accused of masterminding the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Africa, which killed more than 200.
The multilingual evidence and accounts of local people suggest that the camp was used by foreigners to wage Holy War either in Afghanistan, or in Indian Kashmir or elsewhere.
One sign says Harkatul Jihad Islami, a breakaway faction of Harkatul Mujahideen, a Kashmiri militant group accused of carrying out the year-end hijacking of an Indian airliner to the Taleban`s spiritual capital of Kandahar.
DUSTY VALLEY
The camp, a former military base, is tucked away behind farming land in a dusty valley a half hour`s drive from Kabul.
It was set up weeks after the United States fired cruise missiles against suspected bin Laden training camps in Afghanistan in retaliation for the 1998 bombings in Africa.
Villagers, and even some Taleban fighters, said the camp was closed almost one month ago under pressure from Pakistan, the Taleban`s closest neighbour, ally and supporter.
Pakistan, itself under intense pressure from the West to contain the terrorism virus, wanted it shut to stamp out sectarian violence in Pakistan itself, diplomats said.
#57 Posted by Urstruly on June 13, 2000 10:53:32 am
RE: Layman Reply# 58
Non- GOI sources are putting the numbers in the range of 70,000 Kashmiri only.
GOI figure is 25,000 (mixed). A more reasonable approach would have been to average 70k and 25K. But benefit of doubt always goes to the ``accused``. So I took the GOI number that is 25K- even reduced it to half.
But as long as your conscience is clear (or dead), keep up the good work.
Non- GOI sources are putting the numbers in the range of 70,000 Kashmiri only.
GOI figure is 25,000 (mixed). A more reasonable approach would have been to average 70k and 25K. But benefit of doubt always goes to the ``accused``. So I took the GOI number that is 25K- even reduced it to half.
But as long as your conscience is clear (or dead), keep up the good work.
#56 Posted by mannyd on June 13, 2000 7:05:07 am
Dear Crypto:
A sensible analysis on the Kashmir issue in a while from the Pakistani point of view. I believe this is the first time, a Pakistani (or even Indian) analyst has made the following observation:
``This option would have proved even more difficult than the first option, especially in the absence of any large scale inflow of refugees into Pakistan from i-Kashmir. (This is true even now).``
In 1947, five million Hindus and Sikhs were driven out of W. Pakistan in less than six months.
East Pakistan saw out-flow of ten million refugees, mostly Hindus, in less than a year. Bosnia saw close to a million Muslim refugees within couple of months. Afterwards no more than two thousand bodies were found by Nato forces.
How come the seven hundred thousand Neo-nazi rapist Indian forces( A lean mean killing machine according to some rhyming Pakistani) have not been able to drive three million Muslims out of the Kashmir valley into Azad Kashmir after ten years? Are they pelting the terrorists with marigold flowers or using bad jokes to make them die laughing? Or could it be, on just an outside chance, that GOI has given them express orders to avoid targetting the civilians?
Something is definitely amiss in all the Pakistani slogans on Chowk.
A sensible analysis on the Kashmir issue in a while from the Pakistani point of view. I believe this is the first time, a Pakistani (or even Indian) analyst has made the following observation:
``This option would have proved even more difficult than the first option, especially in the absence of any large scale inflow of refugees into Pakistan from i-Kashmir. (This is true even now).``
In 1947, five million Hindus and Sikhs were driven out of W. Pakistan in less than six months.
East Pakistan saw out-flow of ten million refugees, mostly Hindus, in less than a year. Bosnia saw close to a million Muslim refugees within couple of months. Afterwards no more than two thousand bodies were found by Nato forces.
How come the seven hundred thousand Neo-nazi rapist Indian forces( A lean mean killing machine according to some rhyming Pakistani) have not been able to drive three million Muslims out of the Kashmir valley into Azad Kashmir after ten years? Are they pelting the terrorists with marigold flowers or using bad jokes to make them die laughing? Or could it be, on just an outside chance, that GOI has given them express orders to avoid targetting the civilians?
Something is definitely amiss in all the Pakistani slogans on Chowk.
#55 Posted by Layman on June 13, 2000 7:05:07 am
Urstruly #50
``A little arithmatic tells us that Indians are killing atleast 210 Kashmiris a month (based on GOI figures). Let us suppose that half of them are Pakistani intruders, even then a murder of 100 people per month smells like genocide to me.
Are Indian people so shameless to ask their government why it is killing so many people everyday for the past ten years. How do they face themselves in the mirror everyday.
The self proclaimed mother of democarcy is a lean mean killing machine.``
Urstruly, the bulk of the 25,000+ deaths come due to the killings by the militants, not India. The victims are Kashmiri citizens, police and security forces. Take a look at any newspaper (including Dawn) on the number of attacks by militants on civilians and you will know.
#54 Posted by mannyd on June 13, 2000 7:05:07 am
Dear Crypto:
A sensible analysis on the Kashmir issue in a while from the Pakistani point of view. I believe this is the first time, a Pakistani (or even Indian) analyst has made the following observation:
``This option would have proved even more difficult than the first option, especially in the absence of any large scale inflow of refugees into Pakistan from i-Kashmir. (This is true even now).``
In 1947, five million Hindus and Sikhs were driven out of W. Pakistan in less than six months.
East Pakistan saw out-flow of ten million refugees, mostly Hindus, in less than a year. Bosnia saw close to a million Muslim refugees within couple of months. Afterwards no more than two thousand bodies were found by Nato forces.
How come the seven hundred thousand Neo-nazi rapist Indian forces( A lean mean killing machine according to some rhyming Pakistani) have not been able to drive three million Muslims out of the Kashmir valley into Azad Kashmir after ten years? Are they pelting the terrorists with marigold flowers or using bad jokes to make them die laughing? Or could it be, on just an outside chance, that GOI has given them express orders to avoid targetting the civilians?
Something is definitely amiss in all the Pakistani slogans on Chowk.
A sensible analysis on the Kashmir issue in a while from the Pakistani point of view. I believe this is the first time, a Pakistani (or even Indian) analyst has made the following observation:
``This option would have proved even more difficult than the first option, especially in the absence of any large scale inflow of refugees into Pakistan from i-Kashmir. (This is true even now).``
In 1947, five million Hindus and Sikhs were driven out of W. Pakistan in less than six months.
East Pakistan saw out-flow of ten million refugees, mostly Hindus, in less than a year. Bosnia saw close to a million Muslim refugees within couple of months. Afterwards no more than two thousand bodies were found by Nato forces.
How come the seven hundred thousand Neo-nazi rapist Indian forces( A lean mean killing machine according to some rhyming Pakistani) have not been able to drive three million Muslims out of the Kashmir valley into Azad Kashmir after ten years? Are they pelting the terrorists with marigold flowers or using bad jokes to make them die laughing? Or could it be, on just an outside chance, that GOI has given them express orders to avoid targetting the civilians?
Something is definitely amiss in all the Pakistani slogans on Chowk.
#53 Posted by mannyd on June 13, 2000 2:18:07 am
Ref Mohajir # 54:
Thanks for the links.
`` They see only what they want to see``.
Thanks for the links.
`` They see only what they want to see``.
#52 Posted by mannyd on June 13, 2000 2:18:07 am
Ref Mohajir # 54:
Thanks for the links.
`` They see only what they want to see``.
Thanks for the links.
`` They see only what they want to see``.
#51 Posted by narain on June 12, 2000 10:48:47 pm
Ref: AI #51
``Our (Pakistani) position that the real estate has been grabbed by the predatory neighbour is better known.``
Look at the facts: surely Pakistan was the predator who first tried to gobble up all of Kashmir by sending its ``tribals`` across. If in its haste for the first bite, Kashmir dropped out of its mouth and into India`s laps, how do we become the ``predatory neighbour``?
True the killings in Kashmir are shameful and an abhorrence to all right minded Indians. But in India`s opinion the results of giving in might be equally if not more destructive. And it is not sure that the problems cannot be resolved amicably between the Kashmiris and the government. That is how we Indians justify it to ourselves.
And come to think of it, Pakistan is not completely innocent itself. Justify your actions however you want to, but the fact remains that by some very effective ``moral support``, you started a vicious cycle of violence, and to that extent are also to blame for the sad state that the Kashmiris currently find themselves in.
Unfortunately there are no innocents and no heros in this tragedy.
-narain
``Our (Pakistani) position that the real estate has been grabbed by the predatory neighbour is better known.``
Look at the facts: surely Pakistan was the predator who first tried to gobble up all of Kashmir by sending its ``tribals`` across. If in its haste for the first bite, Kashmir dropped out of its mouth and into India`s laps, how do we become the ``predatory neighbour``?
True the killings in Kashmir are shameful and an abhorrence to all right minded Indians. But in India`s opinion the results of giving in might be equally if not more destructive. And it is not sure that the problems cannot be resolved amicably between the Kashmiris and the government. That is how we Indians justify it to ourselves.
And come to think of it, Pakistan is not completely innocent itself. Justify your actions however you want to, but the fact remains that by some very effective ``moral support``, you started a vicious cycle of violence, and to that extent are also to blame for the sad state that the Kashmiris currently find themselves in.
Unfortunately there are no innocents and no heros in this tragedy.
-narain
#50 Posted by mohajir on June 12, 2000 4:48:56 pm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_787000/787795.stm
India does not believe the military regime because of Kargil fiasco , when even the Prime Minister was not consulted.
BBC report http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_787000/787795.stm
Even though Pakistan says it only provides moral support for the Kashmir cause, the international community knows that all the training and weapons are provided by Pakistan.
Sunday Times http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/2000/06/10/timfgnasi02001.html
India does not believe the military regime because of Kargil fiasco , when even the Prime Minister was not consulted.
BBC report http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_787000/787795.stm
Even though Pakistan says it only provides moral support for the Kashmir cause, the international community knows that all the training and weapons are provided by Pakistan.
Sunday Times http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/tim/2000/06/10/timfgnasi02001.html
#49 Posted by Urstruly on June 12, 2000 12:05:59 pm
RE: AI Reply # 51 & 52
No offence taken. I also agree with you 100% on all your accounts. Before I go further let me be clear on my post# 45. That particular post was an attempt to explore why Nawaz chose to go ahead with the Kargil plan besides his participation in Lahore declaration and other gestures of goodwill towards India.
I agree that defense budget is costing us an arm and a leg and it must be cut down no matter what. It is easier said than done if you are caught in a vicious circle. Any solution to Kashmir problem that does not include the will of Kashmiris is like putting everything in a pressure cooker and closing all the vents.
Suppose a miracle happens and somehow the three parties reach a mutually agreed solution. Will it solve our problems? Pakistan may be able to cut down its budget by half. The money saved will be diverted to paying debts and ultimately starts going into healthcare, education and building of infrastructure. Given the size of Pakistan as compared to India the economic growth will accelerate at faster pace than India. The people in India will question their politicians about delivering the same pace of growth. India with its plans of being ``chacha Khamkhoa`` of the region, and also due to some other obvious reasons, cannot deliver the same rate of growth. So it is in best interest of Indian politicians to keep the status quo as it is.
India also plays a key role in ethnic and religious violence in Pakistan. It provides training and helps warring factions monetarily- the situation in Kashmir keeps this pressure off of Pakistan to some extent.
Both countries are two of the biggest buyers of weapons from West. The arms and ammunition is the richest business in the world. Corporations and countries have vested interests in this business. Any solution to Kashmir will be like signing the death warrant of their defense industry- meaning joblessness and slower pace of growth. In order to keep this situation as it is they influence heavily on our Politicians and generals (both sides).
Politicians and generals on either side will never try to find a solution to this problem. Only common people on both sides can decide and change their fate. Since India is a democracy people in India can influence their politicians better than Pakistanis?
No offence taken. I also agree with you 100% on all your accounts. Before I go further let me be clear on my post# 45. That particular post was an attempt to explore why Nawaz chose to go ahead with the Kargil plan besides his participation in Lahore declaration and other gestures of goodwill towards India.
I agree that defense budget is costing us an arm and a leg and it must be cut down no matter what. It is easier said than done if you are caught in a vicious circle. Any solution to Kashmir problem that does not include the will of Kashmiris is like putting everything in a pressure cooker and closing all the vents.
Suppose a miracle happens and somehow the three parties reach a mutually agreed solution. Will it solve our problems? Pakistan may be able to cut down its budget by half. The money saved will be diverted to paying debts and ultimately starts going into healthcare, education and building of infrastructure. Given the size of Pakistan as compared to India the economic growth will accelerate at faster pace than India. The people in India will question their politicians about delivering the same pace of growth. India with its plans of being ``chacha Khamkhoa`` of the region, and also due to some other obvious reasons, cannot deliver the same rate of growth. So it is in best interest of Indian politicians to keep the status quo as it is.
India also plays a key role in ethnic and religious violence in Pakistan. It provides training and helps warring factions monetarily- the situation in Kashmir keeps this pressure off of Pakistan to some extent.
Both countries are two of the biggest buyers of weapons from West. The arms and ammunition is the richest business in the world. Corporations and countries have vested interests in this business. Any solution to Kashmir will be like signing the death warrant of their defense industry- meaning joblessness and slower pace of growth. In order to keep this situation as it is they influence heavily on our Politicians and generals (both sides).
Politicians and generals on either side will never try to find a solution to this problem. Only common people on both sides can decide and change their fate. Since India is a democracy people in India can influence their politicians better than Pakistanis?
#48 Posted by ai on June 12, 2000 10:57:26 am
To yours truly:
My appologies in advance for me for being offensive. I have an interest in the security and happiness of Pakistan as much as you. The need for financial discipline in our defense apparatus is obvious. In this respect Gen Karamat`s prediction that the armed forces will be viewed be the part of the problem in case of a takeover is in fact coming true.
My appologies in advance for me for being offensive. I have an interest in the security and happiness of Pakistan as much as you. The need for financial discipline in our defense apparatus is obvious. In this respect Gen Karamat`s prediction that the armed forces will be viewed be the part of the problem in case of a takeover is in fact coming true.
#47 Posted by ai on June 12, 2000 10:57:26 am
#: 45
Urstruly
RE: AI Reply # 42
- There is no denial that the Kargil issue brought the Kashmir before the world. Our position that the real estate has been grabbed by the predatory neighbour is better known. but bear in mind it endangered the lives of 150 million people. The run of events brought the destruction of the rickety democracy - a method of government that the people of Pakistan were beginning to get used to.
- To ascribe the defeat in the entire Kargil episode to commodity scams involving indian and pakistani politicians is unreasonable. The total earnings to all concerned probably do not add up to one years pensions for the good men sent to their deaths. The possibility of elements in both the armies cooperating to keep the spending going is more likely than a seasonal commodity scam. Gen Musharraf has not provided us with an accurate transcript of his conversations in Sri Lanka with the Indian deputy chief of staff either.
-I am not denying that scams and mafias severely impact public policy. For years people have speculated that the continuation of the liquor ban in Pakistan is no longer a political exigency. A liquor mafia operates in the country and involves the local distilleries, the distilleries in east punjab and the shaheen C130 squadrons that fly in the black label cases.
- Regarding the defence budget any discussion is annoying. Draculas do not like to discuss crosses and crucifixes. Rather in this case discussing the defence budget is like showing a motorised plastic object to a priest. He will also shirk at it.
- Yourstruly must appreciate that we cannot sustain this expense. By trying to maintain parity we will collapse like the soviet union. However no Pakistani will like to risk the dismantling of partition. We have to find a way out. The armed forces may be asked to put their own house in order in terms of providing the same level of security in less amount of money. This is technical exercise. I refuse to buy the argument that ``my father in law Lt Gen so and so was given 70 plots for the defence of the country``. Yahni ke if this guy had not been given 70 plots the country would have been gone. Yar hum itney chutiay to nahee`n hien.
Urstruly
RE: AI Reply # 42
- There is no denial that the Kargil issue brought the Kashmir before the world. Our position that the real estate has been grabbed by the predatory neighbour is better known. but bear in mind it endangered the lives of 150 million people. The run of events brought the destruction of the rickety democracy - a method of government that the people of Pakistan were beginning to get used to.
- To ascribe the defeat in the entire Kargil episode to commodity scams involving indian and pakistani politicians is unreasonable. The total earnings to all concerned probably do not add up to one years pensions for the good men sent to their deaths. The possibility of elements in both the armies cooperating to keep the spending going is more likely than a seasonal commodity scam. Gen Musharraf has not provided us with an accurate transcript of his conversations in Sri Lanka with the Indian deputy chief of staff either.
-I am not denying that scams and mafias severely impact public policy. For years people have speculated that the continuation of the liquor ban in Pakistan is no longer a political exigency. A liquor mafia operates in the country and involves the local distilleries, the distilleries in east punjab and the shaheen C130 squadrons that fly in the black label cases.
- Regarding the defence budget any discussion is annoying. Draculas do not like to discuss crosses and crucifixes. Rather in this case discussing the defence budget is like showing a motorised plastic object to a priest. He will also shirk at it.
- Yourstruly must appreciate that we cannot sustain this expense. By trying to maintain parity we will collapse like the soviet union. However no Pakistani will like to risk the dismantling of partition. We have to find a way out. The armed forces may be asked to put their own house in order in terms of providing the same level of security in less amount of money. This is technical exercise. I refuse to buy the argument that ``my father in law Lt Gen so and so was given 70 plots for the defence of the country``. Yahni ke if this guy had not been given 70 plots the country would have been gone. Yar hum itney chutiay to nahee`n hien.
#46 Posted by Urstruly on June 12, 2000 10:57:26 am
RE: Shammi Reply#48
You said ``Official GOI figures are 25000``. That is the number of Kashmiris killed with in past 10 years.
A little arithmatic tells us that Indians are killing atleast 210 Kashmiris a month (based on GOI figures). Let us suppose that half of them are Pakistani intruders, even then a murder of 100 people per month smells like genocide to me.
Are Indian people so shameless to ask their government why it is killing so many people everyday for the past ten years. How do they face themselves in the mirror everyday.
The self proclaimed mother of democarcy is a lean mean killing machine.
You said ``Official GOI figures are 25000``. That is the number of Kashmiris killed with in past 10 years.
A little arithmatic tells us that Indians are killing atleast 210 Kashmiris a month (based on GOI figures). Let us suppose that half of them are Pakistani intruders, even then a murder of 100 people per month smells like genocide to me.
Are Indian people so shameless to ask their government why it is killing so many people everyday for the past ten years. How do they face themselves in the mirror everyday.
The self proclaimed mother of democarcy is a lean mean killing machine.
#45 Posted by krashid on June 12, 2000 1:50:07 am
macgupta #46
You can say any possibility regarding ouster of NS.
But he was already very unpopular.
What would you say of atomic bomb blast by Pakistan under the leadership of NS.
The same thing gave boost to BJP.
The real reason is betrayal to people.
He amended constitution to concentrate power in his own hand.
He stormed the supreme court.
He tried to crush the press.
He tried to forcibly suppress all opposition.
Economy was in shambles (that is a very potent reason) for which people were blaming the corrupt rule.
And it was not the last nail but he is blamed for retreat in Kargil.
With all these legacy in your hand how can you expect people not to welcome the ouster.
You can say any possibility regarding ouster of NS.
But he was already very unpopular.
What would you say of atomic bomb blast by Pakistan under the leadership of NS.
The same thing gave boost to BJP.
The real reason is betrayal to people.
He amended constitution to concentrate power in his own hand.
He stormed the supreme court.
He tried to crush the press.
He tried to forcibly suppress all opposition.
Economy was in shambles (that is a very potent reason) for which people were blaming the corrupt rule.
And it was not the last nail but he is blamed for retreat in Kargil.
With all these legacy in your hand how can you expect people not to welcome the ouster.
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- pinku: #312 Posted by tahmed32... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- tahmed32: pinku #304 "You can... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- tahmed32: pinku #303 er...well..ok.
... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal - tahmed32: masadi #308 thanks for... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
