Stairway To Heaven

Salman:

I come back after a while to chowk and find your article at the top. What the heck do you think you want to say brother?

Let me tell you something that you should have known before you took up your keyboard and started typing...Iran and Pakistan are two different countries, period. Pakistan is made up of Pakistanis of at least five distinct ethnic, linguistic and cultural groups. Iranians, on the other hand, though varied ethnically, are more or less homogenous people in terms of all the the three above mentioned categories. It has taken them centuries to forge a nationally cohesive identity, but they`ve done it and are proud of it.

But most important of all, they are 95% Shia Muslims. While in Pakistan, 75% are Sunni Muslims while only 20% are Shia Muslims. You give Imam Khomeini`s example for Pakistan to follow on what basis? The two schools of thought, though both believing in the same book and the last prophet, have differed on a whole lot of issues that matter most when it comes to a theocratic state.

What do you want, a Shia theocratic state in Pakistan??? You must be kidding. However, if you prefer a theocratic state in Pakistan, you should know that it will be of Sunni school of thought and Shia will have to settle for a less than a dominant role in every sphere of life, to say the least.

Does that mean Pakistan should not become a theocratic state? You are not the person to make that choice. If the people want a theocratic government in Pakistan, they should get one. This is called majority rule.

Should the rights of minorities be trampled upon in any form of government? Absolutely not. Even if it is in Iran or Pakistan. So there, does that make things a bit clear for you?

Sorry if I was a little harsh on you but you shouldn`t have sent the article before consulting another person, perhaps an elder.

Take Care,

Rehan Rizvi

This is my first post on Chowk so let me greet everybody; Salam walekum, Sat Sri Akal, Good evening, Jai Sri Ram.

The future of Pakistan has to be decided by their own people but as an outside observer it is my opinion that real problem in Pakistan is lack of democracy. Unlike India where lower strata of society has fought rather violently to ask for their place under the sun, for education, for representation in jobs, legislation, in Pakistan every such attempt has been neutralized in the name of religion, jehad and need to fight Hindu kafirs in India. Ordinary Pakistani has been duped to pay heavy price for few minutes of `equality and brotherhood` in Mosques. As people come out of the mosque, elite drive away in their foreign made cars and poor are left to hold on to their faith that one day they all will be rich and prosperous and shining glory of Islam will be returned. Every religion had its glorious periods, but do we need to drag the world back or should we change with time. No country can ever progress if relgious fanatics sit as judges to decide what is right. There is no exception to this rule including in my own country India. BJP has been sanitized to a large extent before it was trusted with power, all by democratic means and sustained pressure. Even now any chun chan and the people get after them. Pakistan can also control its fundamentalist if they are honest about it. They can not be secularist by day and jehadi by night. General Musharraf is a typical example of how a Pakistani is caught between what is right and what is emotionally satisfying. He showed great promise but fizzled out almost like Indian batsman Brijesh Patel. Now it is too late for him to be effective. Even Imran Khan has been talking with forked tongue making it difficult to differentiate who is better, BB or him. I do not know what is the future but I wish good luck to Pakistan and its people.

An article on an interesting topic.

I have said all I wanted to on this topic; Pakistan`s future, and will not repeat myself again.

In short, this is an idealized version of what do happen in Pakistan. Pakistani politicans can not tackle the Army of Allah and it will be this army, which will, by the Grace of Allah, conquer Pakistan and impart in all of us the true intolerance, hate and bigotary, which will be our reward for ignoring this problem for the last 50 years.

We reap what we sow and we get the leaders we deserve. Like the Chinese curse, ``may you live interesting time``, Pakistan will soon enter some really interesting times!

Personally speaking, I am waiting for the Revolution to come to Pakistan, when the real fun and games will start. This is just a warm up to the real stuff! So, my advice is, sit back with a cup of tea or coffee or whatever you prefer with some of your favorite snacks and enjoy the show!

Ciao!

PS: Welcome back, RR!

Salman Haider!

You conveniently forgot in your article, Tehrik Nifaz Fiqah Jafria and its militant wing which is directly involved in the massacre done in the name of Islam.

Also in Afghanistan, Iran has not played a positive role, by pitting against the majority, Hizbe-Wahdat and later supporting Ahmed Shah Masood.

Thirdly, Iranian revolution against Shah, was as much an effort of Tudeh in South Iran, Mujahideen and Fidayeen Khalq and other liberals as the first couple of prime minister of Iran as Khomeini. In a common fight, after getting power in the name of religion, he mercilessly persecuted other parties and leaders who played an active role in the ouster of Shah. (Till 10 years back, people would be very reluctant to take the name of these parties. And being a Mujahid (Khalq) was punishable with death. One person was persecuted who was my friend`s neighbour at that time. There were other hangings for the same crime). Moreover, fighting for ``Shat-al-Arab for 8 years benefits whom. Demonstration in Saudia at the time of Hajj reflects what.

Iran is no pious, when it comes to foreign policy as is amply evident in Chechneya. And Theocratic regime is no pious even in Internal matters.

The persecution of Bahai`s. The almost elimination of Sunni`s who are mostly Baluch and Kurd from the national life is a testimony to it.

There is definitely a trend in Iran for Shiism as superior religion and Iranians (Farsi) as superior people as they consider themselves Aryans. For Shias living in Pakistan are like African jews living in Israel.

lets do it;

-STOP killing in the name of ISLAM.

-JAIL all those fake MULLAHS.

-STOP ethnic cleansing.

-We don`t need extremist TALIBAN but moderate MUSLIMS.

-BAN religious parties with political ambitions.

-REFRAIN from interfering in others faith and beliefs.

-If we don`t there might be a day when the aware populace of this nation will wage jihad against these butchers--so beware--

LETS JUST SIMPLY BE MUSLIMS WITH ONE GOD AND MUHAMMAD(P.B.U.H) AS THE LAST PROPHET.

May Allah be kind to us.Amen.

(I agree with RR.)

regards.

Your logic on Iran, which I have first hand knowledge of from US days through Khomeini days and upto today, is fine, but flawed as follows:-

1) During wars with India, the Iranians/Persians happily stayed clear.

2)The Iranians have oil. The Pakistanis don`t.

3) Most of all, the Iranians have a clearly defined status on who they think they are as a starting point. To my knowledge, the Pakistani sarkar refuses to accept that it is simply another branch of a larger tree called ``sub-Continent`` in its dream to become an Arabic dumping ground!

4) And finally, the Iranian revolution gave women a lot of respect.

Your land, or mine, your mother, or mine, do not ask for sacrifice, they only ask for love. As on today is that too much of us to ask of our neighbours, just love your own land, exclusively, without looking over your shoulder at your ``eastern border`` all the time? Truly, and increasingly, maybe it is time the solution came from Pakistan within. All the best . . .

pakistan was created in the name of religious separatism and is only going in the direction mapped out by its founders (though mr. jinnah probably never paid too much attention to the long term consequences of his so called ``two nation theory``) but what exactly is the problem with india? one hears of bajrang dal activists training with firearms and planning to drive the christians away from india....small time thugs who lack even the simplistic morality of the jamaatias....ferozk, your advice to take a sup and sit back and wait for the coming disaster may apply to north india as much as to pakistan!....talebanism may not be restricted to muslims after all....still, i hope this fit of pessimism is proved wrong....i look forward to the opinions of indians on this site.

Perhaps Salman Haider should read M.Ejaz`s article in todays The News International.

Pakistan has gone down the road of self destruction sa far that even a Khomenie will not be able to save it. Only a sea change in the peoples of pakistan will save it.

A point to remember, King Faroukh of Egypt once remarked - (whilst talking of the pitch of the Ummah by pakistan) you know that islam was born on 14 August 1947.

That says a hell of a lot about pakistan and the perceptions of the ummah about pakistan.

Salman,
I took this article very seriously till:

``A lesson is to be learnt from Iran. A country at the brink of moral decay was reigned in and led forward on Islamic principles by a man who is admired the world over as a messiah. Khomeini knew what Iran required and he delivered.``

The lesson to be learnt from Iran is what NOT to
do. That is all.

This is the era of Information. It is not time
to experiment with going back to the 7th. Century.
Religion has become a much used and abused commodity in our part of the world. A justification or a fallback position of the failures of Nations. Basically ``We failed because
we drifted away from the true path``.

This has left an opening for all kinds of kooks,
fruitcakes, criminals and usurpers to gain power
through the use of Islam. Pakistan`s majority
knows this but is too busy making a living to do anything about it. And thanks to Pakistan`s ``friends``and Kashmir, these forces have gained
a disproportionate amount of power.

Islam is being hijacked by fanatics as we sit
back. These people have to be confronted. Good
Muslims are the ones close to the divine and
indulge in private worship. Khomeni did not help
in this regard either. The projection of militant
Islam was alright when the Western World needed to
confront Communism. Now the chickens have come home to roost...

Ras

Another attempt to infect the people of Indus valley with a mutated version of the same virus. How long do we need to keep going around in circles around this malignant tumor hoping to make it benign? Another 50 years, 100 years...are we the experimental ground for Central Asian, Persian and Arabic tribalism conveniently wrapped in the religious shroud? Thanks for the article but no, thanks.

I really wish that it does not come down to bloody uprising or revolution but the way Pakistani desis are being cornered, pushed around, humiliated and forced dispossession of their languages, cultures and identities....their tolerance is bound to explode with a vengeance.

How the hell people like Abdul Sattar become foreign minister? His statement about Pakistan being part of Central Asia, at the press conference in Washington, D.C., is outright nonsense. It is people like him naming everything in Pakistan Al-, Ul-, Ghauri, Abdali and zarrar.

So much about the so-called liberal, Kemalist, reform minded PM and his choices of cabinet ministers.

Most probably author did not take into consideration the comlementary relationship between military and elite with those of religious fundamentalist, madaris, jihadis and their off-shoots of sectarian terrorists. Military establishment would be least interested to clamp down on their most ardent supporters and the organizations partly of their own creation.

Shia mullahs are good, Sunni mullahs are bad. duh!

How are Taleban worse than Khomeni in terms of minority and women rights?

Salman:

The shair that you quoted was perhaps the best part of your article.

I am certainly not implying that what you want to say is not apt or relevant.I just got this impression that what you wanted to write was lot more and just because you did not plan it,you ended up with a truncated & chopped up version of it.

It seems that you suddenly felt that the article is running ahead of your thoughts.

Let me remind those who make this trite & hacneyed rhetoric about going back to the 7th century.

We all know that no one has the H.G.Wells` TIME MACHINE,so the question is just stupid(on second thoughts maybe almost all of us would individually love to set it at when we were 18 and leave the machine on freeze-frame).

It is clear that such folks would love to go back even further back,30 BC maybe,perhaps to the days of firaun or caligula or caesar.If a poll is taken of such people one would find them to be always on the look-out for perverted behaviour & are generally seen in the company of those.For them praying should be done in closets & perversions under neon lights.Pre-Islami Iran most of these characters(generally in their 50s) were the front line foot-men of socialism and never tired of the fancy phrases like dialectical materialism.Ever hear it now?

Such fossils are refusing to return from the jungles still not believing that the `war` is over.

Nothing would please them more than to see all countries become clones of the Ugly Satan.Making Pakistan the next amer-state is perhaps what itches them most.If these hypocrites really want to de-muslim themselves and flaunt their marginalised status then fine but no,they do not want practising & proud kind around themselves either.It gives them the jitters & are afraid that in such a backdrop their proclivities become very glaring & get highlighted----``the chidren would know dammit!!``.

____________________________________.

``Sir,you are a doctor``

yes

``but you do not practise``

no,I do not

``Is you license under suspension or revoked``

no

``then?``

I just do not renew it anymore.

``So can you now advise people & pass yourself as a doctor``?

I guess I can----- well maybe I shouldn`t.What do you think?

``Well I think,a situation might develop that you can be charged with murder.A renewed license to practise implies that not only your knowledge & skill could be trusted but also that it is uptodate``

I think you are right.But then why people in Pakistan call themselves doctors without practising,Generals(retd) etc or Ex-Deputy,Comm. and such.Are they not hoodwinking us?

``That`s the idea,you dunce``

So what about thse who say they are not practising muslims/christains/hindus etc.Is their ``pride`` well-founded?

``ask them``

__________________________________________________

Veeresh:#7

Replies:

1)How do you know Iran did not do its share to help Pakistan in 1965 war?A lot other muslim countries were also involved.A lot must not be said.

Let me just give one example which is public knowledge & recent.Even after Iran/Iraq war,Iraq trusted Iran & sent all its aircraft to Iran for safekeeping from the Satanic/terrorists.

2)Iran did not have oil always.It was a much grander muslim country then.Britain had no oil when it was Great.

3)We are NOT same.Always remember this.We may have some similarities but we are not.We are much more different than even British & Americans.When will you learn this?

Your love for Dharti maan is like that of a hedgehogs`.You hold such a tight grip on it that an alien can use you to climb over the parapets.Or,maybe the freudian belief to seek a way back into the womb.This is perverted ``love``.

Sacrifice means to lay down your own life for her and tear out the eyes of those who take even a cursory naughty glance at her....and that is our `EEMAN` and not territory.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE________TREMENDOUS ONE.

4)We are more homogenous than you think.A visit to mosques 5 times a day,fridays,ramadhans,hajj etc would be an eye opener for you.

Any shortcomings we have we are discussing it so openly that you cannot even dream of,and here lies our strength.NO one has the guts of in-fighting that we have and it keeps us full of life.

Secularists,Atheists,Humanists---B E W A R E.

Salman,

The graphic manner in which you describe the law and order problem in Pakistan is apt. I do think that killing mullahs (or anyone else) is no solution - we need less, not more, violence. Also, I think it is meaningless to say that Iran is ``respected`` by other nations: respect is for individuals, not nations, and any notions of national glory (of the kind propogated by Indian nationalists as well as Pakistani) are fickle and silly. Even for individuals, the only true respect is self-respect (character) and not what others think of you (reputation). And self-respect is something between yourself and God, not what other people think of you. And we all know deep down what is right and what is wrong. This is the true message of Islam (there is no god but God) which is all but forgotten by the killers of the kind you describe who have descended like a plague upon our poor people.

Salman Haider claims, `A country at the brink of moral decay was reigned in and led forward on Islamic principles by a man who is admired the world over as a messiah.`

Haider sahib, you must be kidding! I don`t know who you talk to, but I don`t know too many normal people who think Khomeini is a messiah. That man was the incarnation of just about everything evil in human nature; his hands are upto his elbows with the blood of the millions that he sent to death in his war with Iraq. Not to mention the thousands he killed in Iran, in Lebanon, and anywhere else where his cowardly terror squads struck innocent men, women, and children.

As for the moral decay he cured, well, I am reminded of an old saying used in the subcontinent: in revolutions, what follows bad is oftn worse. A progressive (though certainly repressive too, modern society was overnight made a concentration camp where more than half the population had few rights (women, minorities, even Sunnis). Doctors and lawyers were hunted down or forced into exile; judges replaced by illiterate mullahs; culture banned. Please, save us the nonsense of saying how Khomeini saved Iran. Just ask any Iranian living in North AMerica what he thinks of the Saviour.

As another participant said, the only lesson to be learnt from Iran is ``DON`T``.

Pakistan needs to emulate neither Iran nor Afghanistan. Her salvation lies in reverting back to the vision eneunciated by her Founding Fathers over half a century ago: a constitutional, modern, progressive polity, based on the consent of the governed, where Muslims and everyone else was free to practise their faith with no help or hindrance from the state. As the Quaid-e-Azam so eloquesntly said in is penultimate address to the Constituent Assembly, ``Your Faith is no business of the State``.

RE Farangi Kushed

``3)We are much more different than even British & Americans.When will you learn this?``

Quote from a Punjab textbook board`s book??? Were you ever a producer of PTV Khabarnama??

Wouldn`t you agree that there are more video rental stores in Pakistan than mosques and churches put together, and ALL of these rent Indian and not Persian, Arabic or Turkish movies?