Pakistani undergrads in the US

Re: YLH

In case you are wondering, that was sarcasm directed at you, because one, I do not care which U you attend, secondly, good for you that you attend RU and lastly, we know where you go so please do not keeping reminding us of it!

Was my sarcasm uncalled for? Maybe, it was. I could have personalized my comments and hurled names at you, or I could be sarcastic in my comments towards you. I chose the latter, because I do not dislike you in any way. I was just tired of your tirade and your, what amounted to, whining about your academic qualifcations.

My advice to you my young friend is to take everything on Chowk with a grain of salt and never to take anything said as a personal reflection of yourself.

Best Wishes!

Ciao!

Dear SAC!

I could not categorize your article. If it was an attempt on humor it was stale-if it was a sociological observation it lacks academic merit-and if it was sarcasm it has no depth.

The way you look at things (in this article) brings only one word to mind – myopic. Unfortunately the glasses that you are wearing are also monochrome.

Your article about Jalib was a good one. You have a particular writing style which is not suitable for stereotyping people. You are good at bringing good in people-why not stick with it.

That was quite an amusing article and well written too! As a British Pakistani, who did all my studying in the UK, it was very interesting for me to notice the differences between the USA and here.

Obviously the US and UK educational systems are different and so a comparison is not really totally accurate vis-a-vis the make-up of the Pakistanis --of various types--who go there. I guess that could be a separate article...anyone? :-)

Some points in common though regarding the TPs of both USA and UK universities (typical pakistanis -- a term used by british pakistanis (BBCDs?) for overseas pakistani students; it`s actually an oxymoron as these pakistanis are anything but `typical` but hey...) I could list would be:

1. Compared to the common Pakistani --i.e. one from the vast majority of the poor and low income/rural groups which make up Pakistan--all of the students who can afford to come abroad to study for a degree MUST be amongst the better off and the `elite` in Pakistan. In the UK we have no private unis (okay, we have one) and all the fees for most unis are the same more or less for overseas students (all unis bar one are state owned) being about 8000 pounds sterling per annum. The average course length here for an undergraduate degree is 3 years so you have 24000 pounds already for a typical course; most students from Pakistan come to London University (apart from the few who get into Oxbridge--more of that later!) and the average cost of living is about 6000 pounds per annum. That makes another 18000 pounds. So we have a minimum total cost of 42 000 pounds sterling. That makes about 3360000 rupees (80:1 exchange rate) (about 34 lac rupees approx.)

Now, how many pakistanis can afford 34 lacs for sending one child abroad for education? That is why i say most of these pakistanis will come from the `elite`(=richer) classes (so called) whether they themselves think so or not.

2. They`d be from the top schools in Pakistan. Aitchison, KGS,etc...

3. They all do Economics!!

4. Those who dont get into Oxford or Cambridge have a big complex about their own Univ. (Most go to LSE if Oxbridge rejects them or some of the other London colleges but they`ll have a complex then about oxbridge or try to get into oxbridge at post-grad level...

5. They are very cliquey (? spelling) and hang out only together..

6. A common attitude towards `BBCDs`(one of disdain usually but not always)

7. Dying for a `white` girl...;-)

8. eat out all the time at Pakistani restaurants instead of the Hall of Residence food (can`t blame them....!)

9. study very hard while pretending not to to each other--extremely competitive with each other. constantly discussing how many As they got/who topped the year etc etc...

all the above are obviously generalisations...

ylh #37, #38, #39, #45, #46

have you run out of zindabads?

regards

aakar patel (51)

Funny!

However it lacked value, intellect, and didn`t move the world towards anything positive. What are you trying to prove? And instead of basing your criteria for grouping on something like inner peace or depth of knowledge and ability to apply it, you based it on mundane nothings.

I am an undergrad at San Jose State University. My mission is to proliferate knowledge and peace in Pakistan. I am the president of The PSA and so far haven`t come across any member who fits in either of your categories...most of them are pretty bright, have thirst for knowledge and most importantly have plans of going back to Pakistan and serving (and not WORKING for) Pakistan at some point in their life.

What was your mission during your undergrad? Did you have one? We have enough divisions to converge, so lets work at them, without your baseless belittling!

If I wasn`t forwarded this article with such zeal by my Indian acquaintances, it may not have sparked me so much. I like the style in which you write, though. No hard feelings :)

Wassalam.

-Aisha

I feel so relieved now that the holier than thou brigade is here in full force. I know my effort to point out their contradictions will be largely futile but the eternal optimist that I am I`ll give it a try anyway.

re wasiq nawaz#40:

You`ve taken an exception to my dividing people based on class distinctions. If you ask an American to describe himself he`ll most probably identify himself with his career. If you ask a Frenchman there is an overwhelming possibility that he may describe his hobby(rock climbing for instance) as one thing that distinguishes him from his peers. In case of Pakistanis rightly or wrongly class distinctions whether geographical,linguistic or overpoweringly economic are used to distinguish different people. Till we come up with a better way of classifying people better yet dealing with them on an individual basis I am afraid we`ll have to deal with these distinctions. And contrary to your opinion I was not putting down my own. Laughing at ones own self is a hard thing to do and sadly the older we get the more we tend to lose that ability.

re Raazdaan #43:

You need to take your diatribe to Kashmiri Sahib :) He`ll probably commit suicide.

``I really do not believe gross generalisations about Indians or Pakistanis are very productive at all. Learn to respect each other a little more.``

Unfortunately you`ve done exactly the same for three quarters of your post.You are worried about the RSS and you are worried about ``elitist snobs`` like me with no respect for the sacrifices of their forefathers. What`s next? Maybe some advice to ``grow up and help the dukhi insaniat in Pakistan``? My forefathers(and yours) are responsible for the mess you call your beloved homeland the ``land of the pure``. If it weren`t for people like me who go to war everyday fighting the prejudices ingrained by years of corrupt dictators,psycho mullahs looking for imaginary enemies and a decadent elite that will sell ``middle-class Aitchisonians`` like you to the devil for dime per dozen you`d be literally eating grass as one of your beloved prime ministers promised. I don`t wear the badge of my nationality or my religion on my coattails. Pakistan was meant to be more than a geographical accident.It was an idea albeit a flawed one. An idea that we have destroyed with our own hands thanks to bright but misguided folks like you who believe more in empty slogans like ``rebuilding the country`` rather than rebuilding themselves. Go out and do something for yourself first. That is the biggest contribution you can make to your country.

re OZ #46:

Same as above.

re sadna#36:

funny line :) Reminds me of a coworker a few years back who decided to resign rather than suffer a Korean lady who sat in a neighbouring cubicle and insisted on eating kimchi five times every day!!

I like your suggestion about contributors being able to identify posters. Anyone on chowk staff listening?

re fozia #35:

If you noticed ABCD was the only category I congratulated on their remarkable achievements. Anyway I wrote this one specially for you. Let me know what you think.

ABCDs:

There are only two types of these kids.Pre-med and the rest.Pre-meds are on a perennial mission to find a suitable spouse, a difficult proposition considering that most of them go to state schools like Rutgers and the various SUNYs. These schools allow them to keep an inflated GPA necessary for admission in the top medical schools. ``The rest`` spend most of their time conjuring up novel explanations for not being pre-med. They choose some of the most ingenious majors devised by man. Animal science(closest thing to being pre-med) and astronomy are particular favorites. They are very fond of blazing new and unconventional career paths which leave their mortified parents(for not being pre-med) in a permanent state of discomfort. The ladies in this group love to be ``cultural``. The best way to snag one of those is to have an ability to translate Urdu poetry into English. Another one is to be able to lose every argument no matter how inconsequential in a way that they don`t suspect. Since this does not come naturally to most ABCD men(or heaven forbid FOB men) they have a hard time falling in love. The inevitable result is a union of these women with unsuspecting imports from Pakland. A sure recipe for disaster if there ever was one.

later

-sac

To whom it may concern,

What`s with the `my school`s/uni`s better than yours` and `your school/uni`s not better than mine arguement` about. It`s cheap, it`s childish, it`s what the uneducated people talk about. First they highlight their toys, than their clothes, the the cucumber essence of their farts.

Get over it, it`s not the uni or book which makes you special, it`s YOU who makes YOU special. All of the folks who have studied higher/further education will know that education is mostly self taught and everything/everybody else are your tools.

Peace and Love

Omar Phoenix

re: the always entertaining ylh

``Makes me wonder why if I decided to feel proud of my country all of a sudden I also became a Dumbo?``

you, sir, are not proud of your country. you use it to provide you an identity, which, for reasons of either immaturity or lack of intellect, you have not developed on your own yet.

true pride in one`s country means striving to emulate its true heroes, not attacking its imaginary enemies. it means trying to come up with solutions to your country`s faults, not turning a blind-eye to them, and, even worse, berating those who would point such deficiencies out to you.

``As for Rsaxena honestly more than you ... it is people like Feroze K etc who make me sick .....``

thank you for that bit of information, since, of course, the entire world revolves around who or what makes you sick.

``As for Rutgers I urge you to check your figures...``

yaar, for the love of God, country, whatever, let it go. rutgers is where i would send my servants if they made noise about wanting an education.

look, man, you seem to be a passionate chap. it`s just that you need to focus your energies in more constructive ways. it took many of us a while to deprogram from the paki educational system, but it can be done.

Makes me wonder why if I decided to feel proud of my country all of a sudden I also became a Dumbo?

Why is Pakistani Nationalism such a threat to the Indian (and the Pseudo Intellectual) Mind ...

The long diatribe by Feroze K was uncalled for !!

Did he just feel like picking on me ....

As for Rsaxena honestly more than you ... it is people like Feroze K etc who make me sick .....

You have your views which are an antithesis to the views held by most Pakistanis ....and you have been right all along .. we are 2 different nations .... we are nationalistic in character because thats our vitality and you people are inclusive in character which is necessary for your survival as a MultiNational state.... both are ideologies which have their own merits and demerits...

As for Rutgers I urge you to check your figures..

yes it was part of the prestigious Ivy League untill 1953 ... a position it was offered 2 years ago but Rutgers is a state school and in order to be an Ivy League it has to change its character ..

Its common knowledge however that with kind of resources at its disposal Rutgers wouldnt need to do much to change into that but thats not what the Governor wants ... Ofcourse when I say Ivy League I mean the league itself of the 10 Oldest schools in the US ... Rutgers is the 8th Oldest ....

In any event I am not out to convince you of anything ...I have no problems with you ... on the contrary its you who starts it ...

Pakistani Nationalism Zindabad

And what did I owe this loving message from you to

Feroze K ...

I never said Rutgers was as good as Harvard or Yale etc ...

I stated a simple fact that Rutgers University was an Ivy League school uptill 1953 ....

Ivy League refers to a league of private schools

which include Harvard Princeton Yale Cornell Columbia UPenn Brown etc ....

it is a league of schools ... Rutgers lost its Ivy LEAGUE STATUS in 1953 because it became a state school ... Ivy League is private school league ... it doesnot refer to any tier rankings

Duke is a great school which better than many Ivy League schools but is not Ivy League for example...

3 years ago Rutgers U. was offered Ivy league position again but the modifications required were

1) Rutgers raised its tuition from 11000 dollars out of state to 20 000 dollars for all instate Out of state alike

2) Rutgers cut down on its size and become more selective in its acceptance ....

Christie Whitman refused to do so since she wanted Rutgers to serve the state as a state School

So People like Feroze K and Rsaxena who know little are attacking me just because of their personal vendetta ....

Most references to Pakistanis, on this website, are malicious and openly condescending. This article seems no different. In the environment this site fosters, it is hard to interpret this article as anything more than a racist generilisation.

I am often amazed by the vehemence by which Pakistan is referred to as a ``Talibanised`` state, but the caste system of India, or incidences of Sati in rural India are ignored. For a constructive look at the real problems, an issue-by-issue look is needed rather than heated discourses only aimed towards painting the other out to be a barbarian. Neither country has the clear moral highground. Countries never do, they are an amalgam of all sorts of people with good and bad motivations. It serves no ones interests to paint them all with the same brush.

India and Pakistan both have an individual ethos, each has to be respected in its own place. Peace occurs only among equals with some smidgen of trust thrown into the equation. These ridiculous tirades that oversimplify the positions of our respective countries only erode that trust further. I find such positions an indications of the intellectual insecurities of the writers rather than of realities on the ground.

If this article was the work of a Pakistani, bravo sir/madam, you`ve successfully managed to tell all your friends that you like to poo poo at your own kind. I`m sure you`ll be better accepted now in your pseudo circles. Of course, the idea of actually trying to positively contribute to the rebuilding of the country that fed you and your forefathers is too outlandish an idea to even consider. The idea that your people need your support rather than your upturned nose obviously never occurred to you. How about trying to help the poor sod who`s in another country, half way across the world, rather than being a post-colonial elitist snob.

If you`re an Indian, congratulations again, the RSS has your medal at home. The Bombay rioters that chanted ``Pakistan ya Kabristan`` were a less eloquently group of people that shared your mentality.

I apologize if I sound too scathing. I am one of the middle-class Aitchison College educated Pakistanis. I really do not believe gross generalisations about Indians or Pakistanis are very productive at all. Learn to respect each other a little more.

Regards,

Raazdan

YLH # 39

Ylh, yes you are right!

Rugters is an Ivy U with higher standards than Harvard or Yale or any of those other Ivy wanna be schools!

In fact, RU grad are in such a high demand, that scouts from Mars, and as far away as Alpha Centuri come to New Jersey to recruit the R grads! They are all then taken to Area 54 for their final interviews after, which their brains are replaced with Non-Circular Randomly Shaped Sensory chips or as they are known in the industry, cow chips, and they are given special job authorizations called LACIs (Lost And Confused Insignficants). These people then take care of the basic infrastructures on their new home planets, such as sweeping and vacuuming alien bio-degradeable by-products and doing the jobs that no self respecting alien would be caught dead doing!

You can easily tell these people if you have ever attended a workshop on Empty Vessels and Empty Noises or have ever taken Bovine Scathology 101. One of their traits is that they are always reassuring themselves of their own self importance and are quite prone to periodic fits of illogical behaviorisms, such as saying something and then saying the opposite of it or repeating themselves, while yelling for no apprent reason.

They also have a strange and an interesting habit of convincing themselves that it is better to compromise between sheer befuddlement and incompetence by always being one brick short of a full load! They also have a singular worldview, which is their own, because for some unexplained reason, no one else wants to share it with them. Presently, there are teams of highly paid and under worked (and employment challenged)scientists working on this problem and so far, the early research has been encouraging.

One of the most interesting things about them, from the point of sociological research, is their social interaction habits. They have none. While on Planet Earth, they have been known, and in some instances photographed and documented, to be seen talking with the members of the opposite sex, but this occurance has been seen on very rare occassions and recorded data proves that this is the exception rather than the rule. If and when seen with the members of the opposite sex, it has been noted that the members of the opposite sex belong to a certain genus, which can be classified into the following groups by their commonly referred to identifications: Rottensnatch, Pfistpumper, Holeinmattress and the ever popular, the Puffy Root Puller.

Ylh, this is a highly interesting field and if you are interested, I am told, since you are from Rutgers, there are plenty of job opportunties in this field. They are trying to get a web site with the all the info online and it should be up and running soon. I think its address is:
www.nobrains.com I think that you should apply there, because with your Rugter`s qualifications, you are a sure thing! I am told that there is no thinking involved just repeating what you are told and you get paid according to your inability to say anything meaningful and orginal!

If you need more info on this, please feel free to contact any Coma Ward of a hospital near you as they can help you in this matter or if you want, you can reach them at their toll-free number: 1-800-USE-LESS

Happy Prospecting!

Ciao!

ylh,

I actually feel bad for you...the way you get taken apart here constantly.

Take a deep breath and relax. I say that genuinely and with no malice but you don`t trust Indians so read what you will in my trying to be cordial. But do chill out...getting worked up over message boards isn`t worth it.

RS

This article was well written and funny, but it points to a basic problem with all Pakistanis. In categorizing Pakistani students by `social class,` the author, who otherwise seems enlightened, simply mimics the overiding and extremely destructive obsession of all Pakistanis, even those overseas, with can really be no more than a tool for our collective alienation: class obsession. Terms such as `upper, middle, and lower class` may have been useful ways of describing people when only a few chosen could attend college, travel abroad, or learn a modicum of cosmopolitan sophistication, but those days are long gone and good riddance! We now live in a world where Pakistanis travel everywhere, they often attend the best colleges, and are often worldly, sophisticated, and polished; many may have had poor forebears, but does any pejorative description of their ancestry really do justice to who they are today--usually not. What it does, instead, is keep people in their place and in doing so, ossified categories like class discourage our natural initiative, destroy our sense of community, and preclude any possibily of solidarity. We have enough people from other communities trying to putus down, do we really want our own kind doing the same--I highly doubt so. We should stop using terms like `good family` because it only implies (ridiculously) that the rest are somehow from `bad families.` We must stop referring to ourselves primarily in terms of what our grandparents did and seek to include more of all backgrounds--that is the only way we as a people will lift ourselves from the dumps our prejuduices have placed us in.

So you think I am accademically lacking ....

interesting how I got into NYU Rochester etc and I am still accademically lacking ...

Rsaxena ... please leave me alone ... why are you so obsessed eh?

Rutgers was an Ivy League school up untill 1953 ... then the state took it over.

And US News Ranking dont always tell the story ..

In anyevent I am a Pakistani national and an international student ... I dont think I eligible for financial Aid at NYU whose standard of Education is not higer than Rutgers ...