Pakistani undergrads in the US

For an Indian with little or no sense of American history and cultural heritage, it is often very easy to confuse the Ivy League as a formal sports conference with its history and indeed the original sports league - the first college football game was between Princeton and Rutgers (Ivy till formal organization of the sports body in 1954) ...

In any event those who wish to read more about the originb

http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0101_Christians_Started_I.html


How Christians Started the Ivy League

..Columbia, William and Mary, Rutgers, Brown & UPenn

The first president of New York`s Columbia University, first known as ``King`s College,`` at one time served as a missionary to America under the English-based ``Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts.`` The Church of England established the College of William and Mary, near today`s colonial Williamsburg. Dutch Reformed revivalists founded Queen`s College (later Rutgers University) in New Jersey. Brown University originated with the Baptist churches scattered on the Atlantic seaboard. With the exception of the University of Pennsylvania, every collegiate institution founded in the colonies prior to the Revolutionary War was established by some branch of the Christian Church.

Even at UPenn, however, an evangelist played a prominent part. When Philadelphia churches denied revivalist George Whitefield access to their pulpits, forcing him to preach in the open, some of Whitefield`s admirers, among them Benjamin Franklin, decided to erect a building to accommodate the great crowds that wanted to hear him. The structure they built became the first building of what is now the University of Pennsylvania, and a statue of Whitefield stands prominently on that campus today.

Though the Ivy League schools eventually turned secular, they fed into the mainstream of society in those earlier days a great army of graduates who could claim Jesus Christ as personal Savior and Lord, and who left a strong impact on our nation. Their presidents and their faculties helped to set a high spiritual tone, and at times their campuses in turn felt the impact of revival. The educators of early America understood that the moral climate of its schools, colleges and universities would shape its future generations, and could ultimately decide the course of the nation.

Reprinted from The Rebirth of America, published by the Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation.


..

From wikipedia...

The Ivies have been competing in sports as long as intercollegiate sports have existed in the United States. Boat clubs from Harvard and Yale met in the first sporting event held between students of two U.S. colleges on Lake Winnipesaukee, New Hampshire, in 1852. As an informal football league, the Ivy League dates from 1900 when Yale took the conference championship with a 5-0 record. For many years Army (the United States Military Academy), Navy (the United States Naval Academy), and to a lesser extent Rutgers were considered members, but dropped out shortly before formal organization. For instance, Army traditionally had a rivalry with Yale, which some assert is set to resume in the next few years, and Rutgers had rivalries with Princeton and Columbia, which continue today in sports other than football

I must say i enjoyed this article..although it was offensive at imes, probably cuz it hit close to home...i agree with most of it...

khair..i wanna know who wrote it and which category do they think they belong too...

re sarwari #99:

Aisha:

I am glad that you`ve decided to write something for everyone.I am looking forward to reading it. As much as I disagree with some of the emotions you`ve expressed in your reply I just don`t have the heart to criticize them.I`ll wait for your article.

``Do your parents know that you bully nice girls?``

Unfortunately they do and that`s why they don`t take me anywhere :)

later

-sac

This was a wonderful article. Humrous yet correct. how about one with Paki Grad students :)) (I fall in that category)

Anyway, i must say that i really enjoyed reading the article. good work.

re: post 74

Sac,

Assalmlaikum.

Sure I`ll accept your ``gesture of friendship” and write what a Pakistani Identity means to me however just so you know, in friendship, you start by being a friend, so cut out the smart comments, because I am either to dumb or too smart to understand the:

[P.S: Do your parents know that you like bad boys? ;)]

You wrote:

[As a gesture of friendship I`d like to request you to write either or this board or as a separate article as to what makes a ``true`` Pakistani. And what pitfalls await those who forget their ``roots``]

I must admit, that was one thing I assumed I could always logically explain, but what came out was,

“ True Pakistanis are Pakistani because they want to be one. It`s the ISLAMIC Republic of Pakistan and even though it may be below its target of being one, doesn`t mean that our arms are weary and we won’t hit much higher up again, (keeping in mind gravity). I think it`s the most fun and true country on the face of this earth, and I like it because I like the word Impossible. Pakistan was once words and Ideas and now it’s a beautiful reality, and no matter what anyone says, I see boundaries being broken everyday, by the very people who are committed to their concern of creating a true Islamic state, in positive light.(watch us!)”

Well... that`s what came to my heart, my mind was like a dormant bacteria in the fridge. With heartfelt matters, regardless of the strength and magic they possess, they must not fall apart when put on paper. Don’t get me wrong, my explanation above means the world to me, but I can do better than that. So I carefully wrote what I thought was less fallacy ridden and challengeable... knowing the butchering nature of chowkwalas.(I`ll have to clarify, eventually, so let me do it now, I think its good for development, reminds me of a line by Khalil Gibran, “As it crowns you, so shall it crucify you”, probably inappropriate here)

It`s being peer reviewed now, if it`s not up in the next 2 months, let me know, I`ll send it to you...that is, if you are still as keen as you were to know what ``I`` think.

BTW, do your parents know you bully nice girls?

Wassalam,

-Aisha

PS: I kindly request the rest to abstain form putting words in my mouth, I chew my cud (joke tha joke) :&@

Hey, ylh. Here is something for you.

Rutgers Varsity to introduce IT courses in India

Pune, June 30: Information technology courses from Rutgers University`s Rutgers University Internet Institute is being introduced in India. Infotech Global Inc, New Jersey, USA has tied up with the Rutgers University to offer their entire range of IT education courses in India at Indian costs. This will be implemented through Infotech Global India Ltd, its 100 per cent subsidiary of Infotech Global in India. Around 20 such centres are expected to come up across the country by March 2001. The first of these centre has come up in Pune following an alliance between Infotech Global India and Adarsha Shikshan Mandali, a leading education institute in the city. Adarsha will be imparting Rutgers University IT courses at its Adarasha Institute of Information Technology. These courses will be designed by the Rutgers University and the centres will be set up as per the Rutgers guidelines. Examinations will be conducted online by Rutgers with students receiving certification directly from the Rutgers Institute.

To Fuzair

Yes Inshallah for Pakistan and for Pakistanis

I will keep MSA (known as ISRU Islamic Students at Rutgers University) out of it ....

Pakistan Zindabad

went to a northeast ivy league school as an undergrad, interacted with students at dozens of other schools in the northeast and midwest, i think all the eight categories were hilarious, i work in dawn in lahore right now (moving back soon to khi) and showed your article to my editor, he was in fits over it ! heheh

gimme a break, rutgers is, well, what can i say, it might have been offered to be part of the ivy league (so some say) but that was in 1953 and as anyone who went to the ivy league knows that it primarily started off as a sports association to play football, but now its a bit more than that and im quite sure rutgers wouldn`t be offered to be part of it now

omar quraishi

actually, i hope this isnt misconstrued or anything, but sac you should write for our newspaper, i work in dawn and you could email any stuff that you want to get printed to thirdeyebind@hotmail.com

omar quraishi

Reading this article, i was reminded of the immortal, though slightly cynical words of Mark Twain,..(paraphrased) ``We are letting our schooling interfere with our education``. The two must be kept separate. accha kher.

Good effort sac. Very entertaining, and almost too hilarious. indeed some of the replies were perhaps even more so, specially the ones trying to make a federal case out of Mr Sac`s personal observations, and attributing all sorts of ill-informed, speculative judgements.

The fact that Mr Sac got some flak for comparing the hitherto not undertaken classic/definitive work viz-a-viz pakistani undergrads, and their relative success(or the lack thereof) in getting laid at US universities, is rather unfortunate. I still recall, the grave expression on my fathers face, as he bid me farewell at the airport, asking me ``to be good, and honest to oneself; and not to indulge in unnecessary extra-curricular activities which might interfere with one`s primary objective, that of getting a quality ``foreign`` education. I thought that it was rather gentlemanly of him to leave ``it`` at ``that``.

I had watched the other half of my class, getting forced engagements to some cousin or whatnot(promises of nubile 16 yr olds waiting for the prodigal sons return back home, much like the promised houuris), in a desperate bid by their parents to ensure their chastity, given the firangi aurteinn, have nothing better to do, than to revel in the enormous love-making experience of these ``confident`` Romeos. Sheer Irony at its frigging best.

Re: ylh

Yaar Ylh, these guys are taking you for a ride. I have to concur with your indian friend, about his stand on education, tools, and self-reliance; that any University (excluding perhaps pakistani ones)is merely a venue for the tools and resources, one needs to get in order to achieve something which might lead to success.

The more you write about Rutgers, the more they will ridicule you. Instead like me, just dont mention that I go to Stanford, and then they will not harm you. Small joke :) Such is their psyche;a supposedly big name university affiliation, has the remarkable effect of silencing most of one`s critics, provided the critics had not had a chance to attend the same or better University. It`s all about the perceived value of education, and perhaps not necessarily about the education itself. It is the so called elitist factor, that sac tended to emphasise upon. ``Pakistani undergraduates also get very focussed upon which university they graduated from and start to exert a certain apartheid towards others who may not have had a chance to attend their university,. thinking and invaraibaly equating the unfortunate opponents inability to get into a top school as commensurate with that person`s capabilities.

No wonder the hyper factor is required by the top most universities, the ivy leagues and what have you nots, to create the illusion for future success for wards of the most influential, rich people. We, pakistanis do not want to be outdone by mere exorbitant costs of such a priveleged education. YUes we have money enough, official state coffers, inherited wealth, old wealth, nouveau riche, etc, who are willing to cough up the 40K or more, it takes to go here. And US universities in general have mastered the art of hype, hyperbole, and outright creation of delusion of grandeur. By that i mean, certainly in UK, Norway, and France, not to mention China, they have excellent insistitutions, but nobody recognises the fact that they even exist. Because, those old fools still think that academia and universities must perhaps be made accessible to all sections of the community, and not just to the incredibly rich, and therefore necessarily not so bright. Or perhaps more importantly that Academnia and Universities is a responsible, and honourable profession, one which does not need hype, hyperbole, and misinformation, or frequent deliberate references in popular vogue movies, to enhance the worth of a degree from say LSE or Cambridge University.

I hope you catch the gist of my ramblings. If not, then then it must be surely attributable to my first class schooling and concurrent ``US education``.

BTW, SAC,

Contrary to your belief that PMA, etc are complete useless, i think they have one good use. One does get free, often reasonably cooked desi meals courtesy of the muslim pakistani sisters.

Cheers.

Whats an article. A great scathing comment. How true. I go to the University of Virgina, went to the Burger Karachi Grammar School, and what a time I`ve had at college. From Sarah to Michelle and Katy and Sandra and Jessica, you name it baby and I`ve done it all. Got to say that I a great part lies to my chiselled body (can bench more than 350) and my looks and ofcourse my junior who is always restless. I`ve given him a break for the past 2 weeks, though. However, he doesn`t like any desi chicks beacuse they are ugly and more hairy than me. ``Oh my God, yeh tum nay kya khe diya, touba touba`` thats all they say.

To YHL

Look I have nothing against you, personally. I just found the responses written by ferozk extremely funny.

I will give you one thing though, Rutgers is not a bad school.

Also, on a public forum, its best not to reveal personal information. By doing so, you become vulernable to personal attacks, which may or may not be vindictive in nature.

Regards,

AD

great article

re tahmed321 #110:

My dear sir:

Don`t get me wrong but your constant desire to come across as a level-headed customer with `real` solutions sometimes overlooks the blatantly OBVIOUS.

The last thing you want in Pakistan is a marauding band of reservists ready to march behind the messiah to rescue Kashmir or Bait-al-Muqaddus from the occupation at the hands of the infidels. The Pakistani army made heavy use of these `reservists` in Afghanistan and operations Gibraltar and Kargil. You see even the heartless blood-suckers in GHQ do not like too many body-bags wrapped in the green and white flag arriving in Chakwal and Jhelum. After retirement army personnel act as `reservists` anyway. Having nothing better to do they are following the current messiah(Akram Awan) for eventual glory in after-life. The entire population of certain areas in NWFP(when its not the hash season) can be pressed into active duty very quickly. The well-trained boys(and girls) of the NCC can handle uzis better than most green berets. What else do you want in terms of cannon-fodder?

later

-sac

More power to you, YLH, if you can keep the MSA scum out of PSA.

To anarchistan ...

Eventhough I appreciate your generous and noble spirit ..I dont think educating your servants at Rutgers is not a good idea because then if your servants are better educated than u r ... who is going to do your chores ...???

Just lookin out for u

Your friend at Rutgers

Yasser

aha ... so now I GET ... the keera is actually bitin on AD`s rear ...

AD gentlemen is also one of those saraa huaa indian who has a personal vendetta against my person ...

Well so be it!

Yasser

Does it matter what any of the people think ...

2 months ago Rutgers was offered Ivy league membership again by the Ivy League commitee...

It was turned down because Rutgers doesnt wanna lose its state funding which is its backbone..

it stopped being Ivy in 1953 was this reason ..

I am glad that u are amused at my expense AD

Reply #: 47

anarchistan

``

rutgers is where i would send my servants if they made noise about wanting an education.

``

-- Superb. Just could not stop laughing after hearing this one.

First Ferozk, and now you. Thanks for providing me with a good laugh. It had been years....

AD

Reply #: 42

Ferozk

-- I could not stop laughing at your post. Had not laughed this hard in years.

Thanks.

AD

And since we are on the topic let me tell you that I absolutely abhorr the attitude of MSAs and their

constant bids to control the PSAs etc .....

We shall not capitulate to MSA bullying in future ...

Pakistan Zindabad

Excuse me if I am being critical ... but Madadd ..

or should I say Mr. Shabbar Abass??? please stop making generalizations ...

Pakistan is what we want it to be!

And believe me we decide what it is and what its not ...

Your good advice taken .... I personally intend to go back as you know very well ...

Anyway hopefuly I will see you next semester in PSA

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

Oh and by the way go to the search on this site ... and search my name ... maybe you will like what you see

type Yasser Latif Hamdani

Mr Maddad ...

Beta aanaa to wapis Rutgers hai naa???

Tubh batoo gaaa who is a fool and whose not...

Pakistan Zindabad

I love it, because it`s mild and shows how good observer you are.

I think we should not forget the brothers and sisters of MSA`s. Regardless of their backgrounds, MSA`s leave some indelible marks on them. As they might put it, ``Subhaan Allah brother, inshaAllah you`ll get rewarded for your article. Jannah is yours..``

sac

My nephew just sent me your `article` in an email, otherwise I would have missed it (since I stay away from The Chowk these days). I`m so glad that there are still people with a light hearted sense of humor who can laugh at themselves. Loved your acidic descriptions and enjoyed your writing style. There is great need to publish `on the lighter side` kind of stuff at this site because people here are becoming altogether too serious.

As for your critics who either didn`t see the tongue-in-cheek piece for what it is, or got personally offended, they should simply take a soap water enema (Ghandhi jee style), purge their innards of the stuff they seem to be so full of, and get over it.

Cheers...SR

re sarwari #67:

Aisha:

I am somewhat intrigued by your ability to come back after all the sarcasm I subjected you to.As a gesture of friendship I`d like to request you to write either or this board or as a separate article as to what makes a ``true`` Pakistani. And what pitfalls await those who forget their ``roots``. I am presuming that you are a first-generation Pakistani American.I`ve yet to find a conherent and logical explanation of the Pakistani identity question from someone who wasn`t born or raised in Pakistan. I`d be highly obliged if you could keep your reply free from references to Toni Morrison,Disney movies or Indians. They all give me a nosebleed. If you could limit yourself to no more than two references to Iqbal or Jinnah that`d be awesome. I want to know what YOU think.

-sac

P.S: Do your parents know that you like bad boys? ;)

Re Naqsbandi #52:

You said: ``They all do Economics!!``

Hey! Don`t forget us lawyers, or those very few laaktrikaal eng-neers.

Oh, and sac: Brilliant article. I just lay back and let all those interacting place themselves firmly into the categories you laid out.

Rafay

Omarphoenix #48

``Get over it, it`s not the uni or book which makes you special, it`s YOU who makes YOU special. All of the folks who have studied higher/further education will know that education is mostly self taught and everything/everybody else are your tools.``

Excellent! Soooooo true. Do you mind if I write that down in my book of quotes :) I love it.

YLH and RSaxena should print your statement out and hang it in their respective homes.

scout

concerned #68

Eligible bachelors? People magazine?

2 Indians?

You`re either an Indian gay guy or a bored housewife to read or comment on THAT article in THAT magazine.

There is no such thing as an eligible bachelor. Such polls are the biggest BS magazines can ever produce.

Most of these ``eligible bachelors`` turn out to be noneligible after marriage.

Anyway, your`s was the stupidest reply I`ve read to this article, coming a close second to the

the whole ``IVy league`` agenda. I`m not saying you`re stupid, the reply was stupid.

peace

scout (Pakistani in case you`re wondering ;)

Yasser Pls Stop Making A Fool Of Yourself , Perhaps if you read my reply amountthe replies# 20-30 , you will be more educated

RE: Concerned #68

How are you so sure about the last three items?

Sarwari, are you suggesting Chowk is a Mickey Mouse outfit? ;-)

a lady friend of mine informs that 2 out of the 100 most eligible bachelors in america (according to people magazine`s latest edition) are indian - sanjay gupta (neurosurgeon) and neerav tolia (ceo - epinions.com).

no blue blooded, luxury apt dwelling, ferrari/bmw driving, never smelling of curry, always bathing, pakistanis qualified.

Re: post #58

sac,

Assalamalaikum!

You wrote:

``I absolutely concur with you that the article lacked intellect,value and DEFINITELY did not move the world.My (ex)girlfriend had the exact same complaint(although in a different context). Ever heard of Archie comics or Dilbert or Mickey Mouse? Shouldn`t they be accused of the same shortcomings?``

Ever heard Mufassa’s voice in Lion King, ``KNOW WHO YOU ARE``? Mickey Mouse seems to squeak in an irritating voice if they both decide to sing a song together. Next time go for ``KNOW WHO YOU ARE!`` instead of ``chuie chuieing`` around.

Ask for your (ex)girlfriend`s help if you have to, she seems nice.

You also wrote:

“I did have a mission during my undergrad. Actually I had two(I am ambidextrous).It was to get over that ordeal as soon as possible.The other one cannot be mentioned in polite company.”

I thought so.

In short...make the greater choice, you certainly have the ability. And since you didn’t leave me with any choice I call “greater” I do not accept your compliments on my good looks or the money I may have donated.

Once again, it was a nice read:)

Wassalam.

-Aisha

makes me wonder if good ol` sac isnt actually writing this as a response to his failure at getting laid....cuz it seems that every single group of desi undergrads is failing to get laid, and i happen to know that sac falls under one of those groups himself.

later mon

U

The most pathetically inaccurate and boring article I`ve read in ages.

Sac #49

Distinguishing fellow Pakistanis by class background is more than just an innocuous little habit we have and more than a simple variation on the way Americans and French describe themselves, it is a very powerful tool of exclusion that is at the center of our neurosis as a people. Cultures can be changed and modified so long as their is some determination to do so. Rather than just throwing up one`s hands and continuing old harmful patterns, I suggest you try changing your frames of reference in order to become a part of the solution.

Had me rolling on the floor. Very funny, sarcastic and `driven` article. So much of what he`s said is true that it`s almost eerie!

I am the treasurer of PSA at Rutgers ....

Yasser

Very funny and interesting piece of writing! Having studied from Lahore Grammar myself, I laughed out loud when I read your description of Grammarians! Right on target!:)

When People`s party won election in 1988, I was very happy and went to my uncle who also was Peoples party voter (but more sane). What he told me is the best truth of my life. ``Mian Koi tumhe Kuch Nahi Dai Ga, Tumhe Sub Khud Karna Hai``

Nobody is going to give you anyhing, you have to do everything yourself.

But then why should I care about Pakistan. For one thing, my family lives there, and anything in positive direction is going to affect them. It might safeguard the future of young and unborn children who do not have to suffer the tyranny of ``Mulk ki Nazariati aur Gughraphiai Sarhadain`` Who might not have to struggle for their education because of lack of money and lack of opportunity (limited to priviledged class) in the name of Islam and Nazaria Pakistan. Who might not have to cut their belly to fill the coffers of few rich in the name of Islam and Nazaria Pakistan etc etc.

This sloganization is BS without taking into account the betterment of people.

Sac:

Whoa dude, where did all this come from? Lets see:

``My plan...? Infidels... virgins... hold on to your roots ... naswar? My children are angels....?``

What is all this about? I can`t recall anything I could have said to trigger this rather peculiar tirade. It seems you`re projecting your bad experiences with religious fundamaentalists on someone you know nothing about. Anyway, forget about it, I don`t see this going anywhere - I`ll go back to my Coltrane album.

re Raazdan #55:

I am afraid your post leaves little room for compromise. Here is what I hear when the likes of you speak. ``I have a plan. I am the heir to a 1400 year old glorious tradition and the final word of God. I don`t like Pakistani people who are all word and no action. But everybody else I love. I don`t care if they want to listen to me or not but I have a plan. Devils like sac are my worst enemy because be has forgotten his roots.I know that all Pakistanis(except those I don`t like) are virgins till they are married and the best amongst them remain so till the day they die.I don`t care what lunatics like sac say because I know that I am the only one who understands the bigger picture. Each one of us is equal to 100 Indians(1 virgin Pakistani = 200 Indian infidels). I know if there are a million of us we can overthrow the elite because this is what is written in Bukhari shareef as well as Nostradamus. I forget that an overthrown elite is always replaced by another elite usually more corrupt than the previous one.My children are angels who can see and do nothing wrong. If they do so I`ll forbid them from going to ISNA events.Idiots like sac who give their country or their people no respect deserve to burn in hell. How dare he even suggest that our kids have forgotten the word of Allah and the Holy Prophet(peace be upon him)? We have potential and due to the untiring efforts of my virgin brethren there will be 200 million of us very soon. sac has no self respect. If he has nothing constructive to say why doesn`t he shut his snout. May Allah cause him to lose all hair below his chin. I have a plan. I am a Kemalist(as in the famous couplet ``The one who doesn`t do anything while sitting in the lap of his/her beloved is a Kemalist``). I AM THE KING OF THE WORLD. sac and other ba ba black sheep can and WILL go to hell.``

Razdaan Sain: Wake up and smell the naswar.Civilizations don`t die because they forget their roots. They die when they decide to shoot or muzzle their own. They die when they think they have the monopoly on the truth. They die when they think they are not succeeding because their faith is not strong enough.Do you think the Indians or anyone else gives a rat`s ass about your plan for ``your`` people?They don`t need to because we have shown enough incompetence to do it to us ourselves.Instead of putting ourselves first you want to be known foremost as a Muslim and a Pakistani.All power to you and the countless before you that have tried the same thing with the same disastrous results.But you are not dragging my ass in your quest for glory in the afterworld. It would be instructive for you to maybe look at the the history of Muslim Spain in the middle ages or more recently the Soviet Union to understand how closed societies tend to unravel.The same fate awaits us.

re urstruly #53:

Your comments are appreciated. But don`t you think one needs to push the envelope sometimes? Consistency is the hallmark of small minds anyway :)

re sarwari #50:

Aisha bibi:

You have identified yourself as the president of the PSA at San Jose State with a self-confessed mission to proliferate knowledge and peace in Pakistan. You are either extremely good looking or you have donated a large sum of money to the PSA coffers. In either case please accept my compliments.

I did have a mission during my undergrad. Actually I had two(I am ambidextrous).It was to get over that ordeal as soon as possible.The other one cannot be mentioned in polite company. Let your Indian friends gloat for a change. The poor souls are going straight to hell anway.

I absolutely concur with you that the article lacked intellect,value and DEFINITELY did not move the world.My (ex)girlfriend had the exact same complaint(although in a different context). Ever heard of Archie comics or Dilbert or Mickey Mouse? Shouldn`t they be accused of the same shortcomings?

Looking forward to furthering a beautiful relationship

-sac

Razdaan:# 55

``Thrice welcome thee O ------`` etc etc

I was thrilled to read your first post and now this one has firmly established your credentials as a firm-footed Pakistanee.

``Bhurri buzm mein Raaz kee baat keh dee

Burra bay adubb hoon,suzaa chahtaa hoon.``

__________________________________________________

WASSALAAM

Sac:

All your points are well taken sir. I will look again at my post, if I have been a hypocrite and generalised too broadly myself, I`ll fix it. I will, however, comment on a few of your statements in your reply:

1) Change occurs when the critics themselves are at least well-meaning. I think what you wrote was funny but in this accusationary atmosphere it comes across anything but well meaning. I have sat and nodded my head in one too many gatherings where the Pakistani system has been berated. Everytime I`ve come out feeling awful because most people there have no intention of ever contributing to their country. Its just tirade after tirade meant to prove how great they are. At least thats my perception, why would you air your dirty linen in public for no reason. No one with a smidgen of self respect does that unless they feel it`ll help a cause. Its quite macabre really.

2) ``elite that will sell ``middle-class Aitchisonians`` like you to the devil for dime per dozen``

And this proves exactly what? If anything its a call to urgent action. No elite anywhere in the world gives up power easily. Look at Europe and their years of feudal bickering. Change and stability occurs due to diffidence and opposing forces. that means dissenters must not only dissent but also step up to the plate and as you said improve themselves. Improve themselves, with a view to what though? Some part of our success should go home too, it makes rational sense, we all win.

3) ``I don`t wear the badge of my nationality or my religion on my coattails``

Okay fine, but then don`t wear your resentment of it on your coattails either. At least give the same respect to your country as you would afford to any other - at least be decent about it. This might come as a shock to you but I like the Pakistani people. You can walk up to a man on the street and if you give them respect, they`ll reciprocate. They`re not a bad bunch at all. Why is it that Pakistanis talk about thier country in such rotten terms as no one else I have ever met. Its rather pathetic actually, it says more about them than the country. We`re 120 million people and yes we have potential and we mean to find a way.

4) ``thanks to bright but misguided folks like you who believe more in empty slogans like ``rebuilding the country`` rather than rebuilding themselves``

How do you know we`re not rebuilding ourselves. We`re all working hard as I`m sure you are. But where`s the need to make Pakistan a priority or at least stop beating it if it doesn`t mean anything to you. Don`t hold us back if you cannot help us forward.

In conclusion, I have said a lot that was perhaps too direct for this open forum. t would interesting to talk to you again, perhaps one on one.

Regards,

Raazdan

Re: YLH

In case you are wondering, that was sarcasm directed at you, because one, I do not care which U you attend, secondly, good for you that you attend RU and lastly, we know where you go so please do not keeping reminding us of it!

Was my sarcasm uncalled for? Maybe, it was. I could have personalized my comments and hurled names at you, or I could be sarcastic in my comments towards you. I chose the latter, because I do not dislike you in any way. I was just tired of your tirade and your, what amounted to, whining about your academic qualifcations.

My advice to you my young friend is to take everything on Chowk with a grain of salt and never to take anything said as a personal reflection of yourself.

Best Wishes!

Ciao!

Dear SAC!

I could not categorize your article. If it was an attempt on humor it was stale-if it was a sociological observation it lacks academic merit-and if it was sarcasm it has no depth.

The way you look at things (in this article) brings only one word to mind – myopic. Unfortunately the glasses that you are wearing are also monochrome.

Your article about Jalib was a good one. You have a particular writing style which is not suitable for stereotyping people. You are good at bringing good in people-why not stick with it.

That was quite an amusing article and well written too! As a British Pakistani, who did all my studying in the UK, it was very interesting for me to notice the differences between the USA and here.

Obviously the US and UK educational systems are different and so a comparison is not really totally accurate vis-a-vis the make-up of the Pakistanis --of various types--who go there. I guess that could be a separate article...anyone? :-)

Some points in common though regarding the TPs of both USA and UK universities (typical pakistanis -- a term used by british pakistanis (BBCDs?) for overseas pakistani students; it`s actually an oxymoron as these pakistanis are anything but `typical` but hey...) I could list would be:

1. Compared to the common Pakistani --i.e. one from the vast majority of the poor and low income/rural groups which make up Pakistan--all of the students who can afford to come abroad to study for a degree MUST be amongst the better off and the `elite` in Pakistan. In the UK we have no private unis (okay, we have one) and all the fees for most unis are the same more or less for overseas students (all unis bar one are state owned) being about 8000 pounds sterling per annum. The average course length here for an undergraduate degree is 3 years so you have 24000 pounds already for a typical course; most students from Pakistan come to London University (apart from the few who get into Oxbridge--more of that later!) and the average cost of living is about 6000 pounds per annum. That makes another 18000 pounds. So we have a minimum total cost of 42 000 pounds sterling. That makes about 3360000 rupees (80:1 exchange rate) (about 34 lac rupees approx.)

Now, how many pakistanis can afford 34 lacs for sending one child abroad for education? That is why i say most of these pakistanis will come from the `elite`(=richer) classes (so called) whether they themselves think so or not.

2. They`d be from the top schools in Pakistan. Aitchison, KGS,etc...

3. They all do Economics!!

4. Those who dont get into Oxford or Cambridge have a big complex about their own Univ. (Most go to LSE if Oxbridge rejects them or some of the other London colleges but they`ll have a complex then about oxbridge or try to get into oxbridge at post-grad level...

5. They are very cliquey (? spelling) and hang out only together..

6. A common attitude towards `BBCDs`(one of disdain usually but not always)

7. Dying for a `white` girl...;-)

8. eat out all the time at Pakistani restaurants instead of the Hall of Residence food (can`t blame them....!)

9. study very hard while pretending not to to each other--extremely competitive with each other. constantly discussing how many As they got/who topped the year etc etc...

all the above are obviously generalisations...

ylh #37, #38, #39, #45, #46

have you run out of zindabads?

regards

aakar patel (51)

Funny!

However it lacked value, intellect, and didn`t move the world towards anything positive. What are you trying to prove? And instead of basing your criteria for grouping on something like inner peace or depth of knowledge and ability to apply it, you based it on mundane nothings.

I am an undergrad at San Jose State University. My mission is to proliferate knowledge and peace in Pakistan. I am the president of The PSA and so far haven`t come across any member who fits in either of your categories...most of them are pretty bright, have thirst for knowledge and most importantly have plans of going back to Pakistan and serving (and not WORKING for) Pakistan at some point in their life.

What was your mission during your undergrad? Did you have one? We have enough divisions to converge, so lets work at them, without your baseless belittling!

If I wasn`t forwarded this article with such zeal by my Indian acquaintances, it may not have sparked me so much. I like the style in which you write, though. No hard feelings :)

Wassalam.

-Aisha

I feel so relieved now that the holier than thou brigade is here in full force. I know my effort to point out their contradictions will be largely futile but the eternal optimist that I am I`ll give it a try anyway.

re wasiq nawaz#40:

You`ve taken an exception to my dividing people based on class distinctions. If you ask an American to describe himself he`ll most probably identify himself with his career. If you ask a Frenchman there is an overwhelming possibility that he may describe his hobby(rock climbing for instance) as one thing that distinguishes him from his peers. In case of Pakistanis rightly or wrongly class distinctions whether geographical,linguistic or overpoweringly economic are used to distinguish different people. Till we come up with a better way of classifying people better yet dealing with them on an individual basis I am afraid we`ll have to deal with these distinctions. And contrary to your opinion I was not putting down my own. Laughing at ones own self is a hard thing to do and sadly the older we get the more we tend to lose that ability.

re Raazdaan #43:

You need to take your diatribe to Kashmiri Sahib :) He`ll probably commit suicide.

``I really do not believe gross generalisations about Indians or Pakistanis are very productive at all. Learn to respect each other a little more.``

Unfortunately you`ve done exactly the same for three quarters of your post.You are worried about the RSS and you are worried about ``elitist snobs`` like me with no respect for the sacrifices of their forefathers. What`s next? Maybe some advice to ``grow up and help the dukhi insaniat in Pakistan``? My forefathers(and yours) are responsible for the mess you call your beloved homeland the ``land of the pure``. If it weren`t for people like me who go to war everyday fighting the prejudices ingrained by years of corrupt dictators,psycho mullahs looking for imaginary enemies and a decadent elite that will sell ``middle-class Aitchisonians`` like you to the devil for dime per dozen you`d be literally eating grass as one of your beloved prime ministers promised. I don`t wear the badge of my nationality or my religion on my coattails. Pakistan was meant to be more than a geographical accident.It was an idea albeit a flawed one. An idea that we have destroyed with our own hands thanks to bright but misguided folks like you who believe more in empty slogans like ``rebuilding the country`` rather than rebuilding themselves. Go out and do something for yourself first. That is the biggest contribution you can make to your country.

re OZ #46:

Same as above.

re sadna#36:

funny line :) Reminds me of a coworker a few years back who decided to resign rather than suffer a Korean lady who sat in a neighbouring cubicle and insisted on eating kimchi five times every day!!

I like your suggestion about contributors being able to identify posters. Anyone on chowk staff listening?

re fozia #35:

If you noticed ABCD was the only category I congratulated on their remarkable achievements. Anyway I wrote this one specially for you. Let me know what you think.

ABCDs:

There are only two types of these kids.Pre-med and the rest.Pre-meds are on a perennial mission to find a suitable spouse, a difficult proposition considering that most of them go to state schools like Rutgers and the various SUNYs. These schools allow them to keep an inflated GPA necessary for admission in the top medical schools. ``The rest`` spend most of their time conjuring up novel explanations for not being pre-med. They choose some of the most ingenious majors devised by man. Animal science(closest thing to being pre-med) and astronomy are particular favorites. They are very fond of blazing new and unconventional career paths which leave their mortified parents(for not being pre-med) in a permanent state of discomfort. The ladies in this group love to be ``cultural``. The best way to snag one of those is to have an ability to translate Urdu poetry into English. Another one is to be able to lose every argument no matter how inconsequential in a way that they don`t suspect. Since this does not come naturally to most ABCD men(or heaven forbid FOB men) they have a hard time falling in love. The inevitable result is a union of these women with unsuspecting imports from Pakland. A sure recipe for disaster if there ever was one.

later

-sac

To whom it may concern,

What`s with the `my school`s/uni`s better than yours` and `your school/uni`s not better than mine arguement` about. It`s cheap, it`s childish, it`s what the uneducated people talk about. First they highlight their toys, than their clothes, the the cucumber essence of their farts.

Get over it, it`s not the uni or book which makes you special, it`s YOU who makes YOU special. All of the folks who have studied higher/further education will know that education is mostly self taught and everything/everybody else are your tools.

Peace and Love

Omar Phoenix

re: the always entertaining ylh

``Makes me wonder why if I decided to feel proud of my country all of a sudden I also became a Dumbo?``

you, sir, are not proud of your country. you use it to provide you an identity, which, for reasons of either immaturity or lack of intellect, you have not developed on your own yet.

true pride in one`s country means striving to emulate its true heroes, not attacking its imaginary enemies. it means trying to come up with solutions to your country`s faults, not turning a blind-eye to them, and, even worse, berating those who would point such deficiencies out to you.

``As for Rsaxena honestly more than you ... it is people like Feroze K etc who make me sick .....``

thank you for that bit of information, since, of course, the entire world revolves around who or what makes you sick.

``As for Rutgers I urge you to check your figures...``

yaar, for the love of God, country, whatever, let it go. rutgers is where i would send my servants if they made noise about wanting an education.

look, man, you seem to be a passionate chap. it`s just that you need to focus your energies in more constructive ways. it took many of us a while to deprogram from the paki educational system, but it can be done.

Makes me wonder why if I decided to feel proud of my country all of a sudden I also became a Dumbo?

Why is Pakistani Nationalism such a threat to the Indian (and the Pseudo Intellectual) Mind ...

The long diatribe by Feroze K was uncalled for !!

Did he just feel like picking on me ....

As for Rsaxena honestly more than you ... it is people like Feroze K etc who make me sick .....

You have your views which are an antithesis to the views held by most Pakistanis ....and you have been right all along .. we are 2 different nations .... we are nationalistic in character because thats our vitality and you people are inclusive in character which is necessary for your survival as a MultiNational state.... both are ideologies which have their own merits and demerits...

As for Rutgers I urge you to check your figures..

yes it was part of the prestigious Ivy League untill 1953 ... a position it was offered 2 years ago but Rutgers is a state school and in order to be an Ivy League it has to change its character ..

Its common knowledge however that with kind of resources at its disposal Rutgers wouldnt need to do much to change into that but thats not what the Governor wants ... Ofcourse when I say Ivy League I mean the league itself of the 10 Oldest schools in the US ... Rutgers is the 8th Oldest ....

In any event I am not out to convince you of anything ...I have no problems with you ... on the contrary its you who starts it ...

Pakistani Nationalism Zindabad

And what did I owe this loving message from you to

Feroze K ...

I never said Rutgers was as good as Harvard or Yale etc ...

I stated a simple fact that Rutgers University was an Ivy League school uptill 1953 ....

Ivy League refers to a league of private schools

which include Harvard Princeton Yale Cornell Columbia UPenn Brown etc ....

it is a league of schools ... Rutgers lost its Ivy LEAGUE STATUS in 1953 because it became a state school ... Ivy League is private school league ... it doesnot refer to any tier rankings

Duke is a great school which better than many Ivy League schools but is not Ivy League for example...

3 years ago Rutgers U. was offered Ivy league position again but the modifications required were

1) Rutgers raised its tuition from 11000 dollars out of state to 20 000 dollars for all instate Out of state alike

2) Rutgers cut down on its size and become more selective in its acceptance ....

Christie Whitman refused to do so since she wanted Rutgers to serve the state as a state School

So People like Feroze K and Rsaxena who know little are attacking me just because of their personal vendetta ....

Most references to Pakistanis, on this website, are malicious and openly condescending. This article seems no different. In the environment this site fosters, it is hard to interpret this article as anything more than a racist generilisation.

I am often amazed by the vehemence by which Pakistan is referred to as a ``Talibanised`` state, but the caste system of India, or incidences of Sati in rural India are ignored. For a constructive look at the real problems, an issue-by-issue look is needed rather than heated discourses only aimed towards painting the other out to be a barbarian. Neither country has the clear moral highground. Countries never do, they are an amalgam of all sorts of people with good and bad motivations. It serves no ones interests to paint them all with the same brush.

India and Pakistan both have an individual ethos, each has to be respected in its own place. Peace occurs only among equals with some smidgen of trust thrown into the equation. These ridiculous tirades that oversimplify the positions of our respective countries only erode that trust further. I find such positions an indications of the intellectual insecurities of the writers rather than of realities on the ground.

If this article was the work of a Pakistani, bravo sir/madam, you`ve successfully managed to tell all your friends that you like to poo poo at your own kind. I`m sure you`ll be better accepted now in your pseudo circles. Of course, the idea of actually trying to positively contribute to the rebuilding of the country that fed you and your forefathers is too outlandish an idea to even consider. The idea that your people need your support rather than your upturned nose obviously never occurred to you. How about trying to help the poor sod who`s in another country, half way across the world, rather than being a post-colonial elitist snob.

If you`re an Indian, congratulations again, the RSS has your medal at home. The Bombay rioters that chanted ``Pakistan ya Kabristan`` were a less eloquently group of people that shared your mentality.

I apologize if I sound too scathing. I am one of the middle-class Aitchison College educated Pakistanis. I really do not believe gross generalisations about Indians or Pakistanis are very productive at all. Learn to respect each other a little more.

Regards,

Raazdan

YLH # 39

Ylh, yes you are right!

Rugters is an Ivy U with higher standards than Harvard or Yale or any of those other Ivy wanna be schools!

In fact, RU grad are in such a high demand, that scouts from Mars, and as far away as Alpha Centuri come to New Jersey to recruit the R grads! They are all then taken to Area 54 for their final interviews after, which their brains are replaced with Non-Circular Randomly Shaped Sensory chips or as they are known in the industry, cow chips, and they are given special job authorizations called LACIs (Lost And Confused Insignficants). These people then take care of the basic infrastructures on their new home planets, such as sweeping and vacuuming alien bio-degradeable by-products and doing the jobs that no self respecting alien would be caught dead doing!

You can easily tell these people if you have ever attended a workshop on Empty Vessels and Empty Noises or have ever taken Bovine Scathology 101. One of their traits is that they are always reassuring themselves of their own self importance and are quite prone to periodic fits of illogical behaviorisms, such as saying something and then saying the opposite of it or repeating themselves, while yelling for no apprent reason.

They also have a strange and an interesting habit of convincing themselves that it is better to compromise between sheer befuddlement and incompetence by always being one brick short of a full load! They also have a singular worldview, which is their own, because for some unexplained reason, no one else wants to share it with them. Presently, there are teams of highly paid and under worked (and employment challenged)scientists working on this problem and so far, the early research has been encouraging.

One of the most interesting things about them, from the point of sociological research, is their social interaction habits. They have none. While on Planet Earth, they have been known, and in some instances photographed and documented, to be seen talking with the members of the opposite sex, but this occurance has been seen on very rare occassions and recorded data proves that this is the exception rather than the rule. If and when seen with the members of the opposite sex, it has been noted that the members of the opposite sex belong to a certain genus, which can be classified into the following groups by their commonly referred to identifications: Rottensnatch, Pfistpumper, Holeinmattress and the ever popular, the Puffy Root Puller.

Ylh, this is a highly interesting field and if you are interested, I am told, since you are from Rutgers, there are plenty of job opportunties in this field. They are trying to get a web site with the all the info online and it should be up and running soon. I think its address is:
www.nobrains.com I think that you should apply there, because with your Rugter`s qualifications, you are a sure thing! I am told that there is no thinking involved just repeating what you are told and you get paid according to your inability to say anything meaningful and orginal!

If you need more info on this, please feel free to contact any Coma Ward of a hospital near you as they can help you in this matter or if you want, you can reach them at their toll-free number: 1-800-USE-LESS

Happy Prospecting!

Ciao!

ylh,

I actually feel bad for you...the way you get taken apart here constantly.

Take a deep breath and relax. I say that genuinely and with no malice but you don`t trust Indians so read what you will in my trying to be cordial. But do chill out...getting worked up over message boards isn`t worth it.

RS

This article was well written and funny, but it points to a basic problem with all Pakistanis. In categorizing Pakistani students by `social class,` the author, who otherwise seems enlightened, simply mimics the overiding and extremely destructive obsession of all Pakistanis, even those overseas, with can really be no more than a tool for our collective alienation: class obsession. Terms such as `upper, middle, and lower class` may have been useful ways of describing people when only a few chosen could attend college, travel abroad, or learn a modicum of cosmopolitan sophistication, but those days are long gone and good riddance! We now live in a world where Pakistanis travel everywhere, they often attend the best colleges, and are often worldly, sophisticated, and polished; many may have had poor forebears, but does any pejorative description of their ancestry really do justice to who they are today--usually not. What it does, instead, is keep people in their place and in doing so, ossified categories like class discourage our natural initiative, destroy our sense of community, and preclude any possibily of solidarity. We have enough people from other communities trying to putus down, do we really want our own kind doing the same--I highly doubt so. We should stop using terms like `good family` because it only implies (ridiculously) that the rest are somehow from `bad families.` We must stop referring to ourselves primarily in terms of what our grandparents did and seek to include more of all backgrounds--that is the only way we as a people will lift ourselves from the dumps our prejuduices have placed us in.

So you think I am accademically lacking ....

interesting how I got into NYU Rochester etc and I am still accademically lacking ...

Rsaxena ... please leave me alone ... why are you so obsessed eh?

Rutgers was an Ivy League school up untill 1953 ... then the state took it over.

And US News Ranking dont always tell the story ..

In anyevent I am a Pakistani national and an international student ... I dont think I eligible for financial Aid at NYU whose standard of Education is not higer than Rutgers ...

Rsaxena ... please leave me alone ... why are you so obsessed eh?

Rutgers was an Ivy League school up untill 1953 ... then the state took it over.

And US News Ranking dont always tell the story ..

In anyevent I am a Pakistani national and an international student ... I dont think I eligible for financial Aid at NYU whose standard of Education is not higer than Rutgers ...

sac #31

``Mummy, mummy, aaj Ramu nahi nahaaya hai``

``Tum us se khud bol do na, mere paas daudke aane ki kya zaroorat hai``

Re` `the author`s bio`, I was just making a general observation relevant to the article`s burden and content.

Re anonymity, I think its good not to tell every hick the road to your house, specially in worldwide forums on the web. WRT political stances, however, IMHO it carries more weight and meaning to put the tag of one`s name(and address) on ones opinion. Whether its the right thing to do on chowk, well I don`t know. Maybe chowk editors ought engineer the site so that only the author of an article would have access to the particulars of those posters who wish to identify themselves.

Sadhana

You wrote good caricitures of all but the ``ABCDs``. Come on now if you`re going to make fun of the ABCDs than do a better job than just passing them off as ``confused`` and not saying much more. You have no reference to what universities they go to, their study patterns, their dating patterns, what they wear or their opinions etc like you do for the other profiles you`ve listed above.

It seems to me like you haven`t been around enough ABCDs to write a detailed profile like you have of the other categories....

Fozia

Sac,

To temper your obsession with Indians smelling (were you ever tied to a pole with an Indian armpit in your face?) and sartorial inadequacies, truth be known that most Pakistanis are no different.

I`ve seen both Indians AND Pakistanis run around in translucent see-my-brown-skin-and-hairy-chest white shirts with yellow collars, horrendous ties reaching below the belt, and black hiking shoes on the streets of Manhattan.

You being cheeky about Indians` accomplishments vs. their clothes doesn`t change the facts.

There goes ylh lying again. Aren`t you afraid of Allah dumping you in the middle of the hot desert somewhere for all your sins?

Rutgers is NOT considered the Ivy League of state schools. The only one that even comes close is University of Virginia. Compare average SAT scores and acceptance rates and you`ll have your reaffirmation.

Rutgers at the UNDERGRAD level is now nothing more than a less than mediocre joint for the academically lacking sons and daughters of wealthy Indian and Pakistani parents of the tri-state area to go goof off. And a shame it is too since America`s one of the places on earth where pure hard work can get you the financial means to attend an Ivy League school regardless of your parents` tax bracket. And most undergrads are elligible for it.

re ferozk #19:

Sorry for the misunderstanding.When the mullahs get you they get you real bad.The younger brother of one of my friends was captured while at GIK. The poor kid is hardly 20. He has dropped out of school. Says 15 different kinds of prayers every day and starts trembling in the company of women.He is constantly worried about going to hell because he looked at his female cousin for too long!! To be honest though its usually the ones too far out in the other direction that suddenly discover salvation through the almighty beard.

re sadna #15:

``Very well-written, though and throughout whets curiosity wrt the author`s own bio :-).``

I know you feel otherwise but to me the anonymity Chowk offers is probably its biggest draw. Let me explain. For some of us the pressures to be always right in our chosen careers(doctors e.g.) may take away the ability to ask(and answer) dumb questions. In the ``expert`` ruled culture of today we have been programmed to trust the ``expert`` blindly. This takes away the power of the individual who may be right in his conclusions but lacks the proper ``credentials``.For example on another board it was suggested(in somewhat inappropriate language) that Indian hygiene habits leave a lot to be desired.Certain Indians reacted negatively simply because the charge came from a Pakistani. Lets imagine for a minute that Vinod Khosla or his ex-buddy Scott McNeely made the same observation.I can bet you my last penny that all stores in Fremont would be out of soap within 24 hours!! Nobody is discounting the fact that Indian achievements in technolgy are unparalleled. This despite their lack of attention to taking showers or dressing less than professionally. Imagine how much better off they`d be if they corected these minor irritants!!!

I admit that you can make some guesses about the individual`s makeup or value and belief systems by their contributions on this website.However the words on the screen can override those stereotypes. One can afford to make mistakes without the pressure to perform flawlessly. And that is why I hang out here. Now lets hear your side of the story :)

``BTW, I am honestly bewildered, (rich people in a poor country) if so many are doing well enough for themselves to pay for their childrens` UG study abroad, then whats all the fuss about then, back `there`?``

Good question. I think the chickens are finally coming home to roost.The rapidly dwindling supply of state largesse is causing a lot of pain to the elite. This bloodletting is good for the patient. The only problem is that it may die on the operating table.

later

-sac

sac,

[...``I am in there somewhere...``]

thats all?!

this is so, ummm... `not ayn rand`.

PAKISTANI UNDERGRADS IN TEXAS

Based on my graduate studies in Texas, I suggest Pakistanis to seriously consider Texas Schools for their undergraduate studies. The tution is low, standard of education is excellent, living is not very expensive, roughly 300 days per year of sunshine, seldom snowfalls and yes.....beutiful Texan girls...very few of the red-haired Germanic variety of the midwest or northeast (mardana husn ka zanana shahkar type).

The best schools are UT Austin, UT Houston, Texas A & M and Rice University. Graduate in IT from UT Austin and find job right away in Dell Computers, Applied Materials, National Instruments or any one of a host of high tech companies. If you have the resources and mainly want to have fun, choose any of the universities around Dallas-Fort Worth area, SMU, TCU, UNT or UT Dallas. These universities have roughly 60% girls and 40% boys. All you need is an interest in Football and regular visits to swimming pool during summer. However if you are tight with money, try UT El Paso. Learn few Hispanic words like Que Paso, Mucho Gracias and Adieus......visit Ciudad Juarez across the border often...even for a nice hearcut for $1.50 and Texas size tacos and burittoes for another dollar...Margaritta not included.

There are lot less Bhais and Uncles in Texas besides no one uncle can invite 200+ Pakistanis from UT Austin. As I said about El Paso, in Austin or nearby San Antonio, you can get lucky more easily with hispanics but be careful about fathering unwanted children. Among white Texans, do not waste your time on Southern Baptists or going to Baylor University. The best chances to get lucky are with the catholics because redemption is easy for them. Avoid getting spiritual with girls, no matter how hot your head gets in the summer sun.

I bet the percent of Pakistani student marrying non-Pakistanis is highest in Texas than any other state.

madad 110 !

I commend you on your effort. A highly reflective article.

sac!

I initially thought, you are beyond mediocre.

But your article only describes, what company you keep and a very superficial approach.

In old Greek, when trade was at its peak, people were divided into, naive and sharp.

See the life in its full extent and each individual is a world in him/herself.

It is a well-written and witty article. I think people asking the author about their categorical classification are in need of dire help.

:-))

MF

More than you can imagine ....

Jiye Love

ylh,

In order for sac to put you in any category, you forgot the most important criteria.

Do you get laid or not!?

JIYA SEX!

sac, that article is right on the dot.

Most of my friends at school were from Abu Dhabi and it was impossible to involve them into any intellectual debate. I mean, they had no stand on any issue be it Kashmir or Babri, or OJ Simpson. In fact anything that was NEWS was taboo for them.

Although they would insist that their fathers were too involved in news from India/Pakistan etc.

About forming groups of Bhais.... again you are correct. It seems that new Pakis (I mean FOBS : Fresh of The Boats) are dying to give their undying loyalty and respect to theier elders, and they just can`t wait to make ``bhais``, for themselves and grovel at their feet.

AD

Salaam Alaikum

It is truly a delightful experience to have the opportunity to read your article regarding Pakistani undergraduates esp. in the US of A.

Here are some not all of my observations and constructive criticisms

regarding your work.( excuse my english )

As a pakistani undergrad who has lived in the USA since 1990 and 2 yrs in Pakistan prior to that(Saudia Arabia prior to that), and never travelled abroad due to immigration problems, if u were to meet me in person u would think as many others have that I am a new arrival (or in other words a FOB). Nevertheless I am the type of diplomat that u mention who can or seems to be able to bridge the gap between american pakistanis and paki pakistanis(no sterotyping intended). Personally, speaking coming from a Pakistani karachi middle class if u will, our family stretches from the upperclass Clifton/Defence areas to the middleclass(whereas my middle class differs from ure middleclass because you are probably reflecting American standards of normal life whereas my definition illuminates the problems faced by the vast majority of Pakistani middleclassers) areas of PECHS, Gulshan-e-Iqbal, Federal P Area, Nazimabad to the relatively low income areas of (Malir, Golimar and DigRoad). Therefore I have seen the slice of the cake in terms of social structure. In my years of study here in the US I have noticed that the majority of students definitely are from the upper class whether they think so or not. And on top of that I have noticed a degree of Arrogance mixed with Nationalism that openly seems comendable and yet underthetable is complete farce. To be nationalistic, one has to represent the complete picture, all facets of our society. One must realize the dire hardship faced by the poor in earning money for bread, for education, for work, so many hardships out there I could simply expound on any one of them. Simply harboring such attitudes does not amount to anything. For that matter every optimistic pakistani harbors similar ambitions and ideas. A lot of my acquantinces(misspelling perhaps) not friends I must add, argue with me that the picture of Pakistan that I portray is not really that way and they are not all that rich. Well my friends your arguement is not limited to you, certainly my cousins who are well off harbor similar thoughts. There is nothing wrong in being well off, the problem arises when you try to abuse that power. For example, My cousin, my own cousin, oftens bloats while driving his fathers car(with a government license plate) that no police can stop him or when he told them off one day. This is just an example. As for getting laid, who in his right mind going to an American or even a Pakistani institutions, where exposture between opposite genders will inevitably occur, can argue that such thoughts never appear. However the challenge is not how to get laid, but rather how not to. My friend I admit that our society has truly distorted social interaction by placing emphasis on wrong ideals and goals. Islam places emphasis on early, responsible marriages so that the human natural desire is satisfied. What has drugs, gambling, drinking and sex all have in common? They all provide cheap forms of entertainment and are truly addicting. Ask a scientist or an essay writer and they will tell you that despite their repetitive activities, they are always stepping one step closer to their goals. Whereas the former simply spin u in circles. My friends the time has come to give up such lavish ideas and become concentrated on your efforts. Light amusement and entertainment is necessary for the psychological well being of the individual. However, we must not over do it. I have personally experienced so many of my kind, Paki students fall into these ugly crevecis, they keep on say well i strongly believe in God and islam but am not religious. Read the book of God and see where ALLAH says (I am paraphrasing & details upon requent) ``they openly say we believe and when they are away they say to their shaitans truly to believe u``. My friends , you are Munafiqeen, I urge all Pakistanis who fall under this category to openly come out and say this, I promise no one will disturb you, yet it is disturbing to know that people call themselves muslim and yet do these things. For God`s sakes be true to yourself and to others. I am sure I am not speaking for everyone or to everyone, Yet those who truly want to help Pakistan, my message is one and one only

STOP GIVING DONATIONS TO PAKISTAN!

RATHER BECOME A DONATION FOR PAKISTAN!

My full regards for your time

Thank You

An excellent article.....

funny stuff. not terribly insightful, though, and i guess you didn`t mean it to be. it`s just that the same (with some slight revisions, of course) can be said about most foreign undergrads, esp as regards to class background.

re: ylh

``So whats your decision on me ...Am I in a league of my own?????``

indeed.

the self-involved, self-deceiving, cheerfully unaware narcissistic brownie with delusions of grandeur and an uncanny ability to convince oneself of