Indians and Pakistanis Must Start Anew

Pyaare YLH

Just like you claim to be Pakistani Nationalist, I too am an Indian Nationalist. How does being an Indian Nationalist make me a ``fascist neo-Nazi anti-Pakistan``i? You constantly ask how saying your infamous slogans is being anti-Indian? I too ask you, how is being an Indain Nationalist anti-Pakistan? Just like you are a stern believer in your philosophy, I too am a stern believer of my philosophy. So then why are you getting pissed? I don`t have to like Jinnah do I? But that`s just me, maybe there are others who do like him like the author you mentioned. Or is it because you cannot tolerate anybody not liking what you like? But look at all the things we do agree upon. You said Pakistan is here to stay and I too said the same thing. So then why all this Naaraazgi eh? Or do you want to me say that ``I want to gobble up all of Pakistan hahahah but alas because of their bravery, patriotism, steadfastness, I can`t have it``? But how can I say that when I have no desire or intention to live with Pakistanis? And isn`t what I want also what you want? But that doesn`t mean I hate Pakistan or her people. Its just that I don`t agree with their philosphy. I am allowed to do that aren`t I? I`m not living in a fascist world am I? I want peace between India and Pakistan. Nothing more. I don`t want friendship or brotherhoood between us, because that`ll only bring back painful memories and confict of interests. Is that wrong? Am I allowed to think like that? I hope you will read this without skimming and enlighten me with your reply

Kabuli

Re: scout#90

Scout Aunty,

thanx very much for appreciating the beauty (you only appreciated the material, but there is also a lot of natural beauty like I mentioned before)of my country.

I never said that India`s glory was given to us only by the Hindus or that it belongs to only the Hindus. It was given to us by everybody irrespective of their origins and is enjoyed by all Indians, irrespective of their creed. That is the beauty of our culture. We can maintain our religioius identity yet appreciate and revel in various cultures. May be you haven`t heard of it in Pakistan, its called multiculturalism. India has had and will have the capacity to appreciate, absorb and influence various cultures and the whole mosaic is called Indian culture. Too bad you can`t enjoy it, while we bask and frolic in it.

Aside from all that, it seems to me that your history is quite poor. So allow me to enlighten you. You see, what you call Mughal architecture is an amalgamation of the indigenous Hindu/Rajput, Persian and Central Asian styles. I believe it is called Indo-Persian style. That is the reason why monuments in Persia or Central Asia are different from the Mughal architecture in India. Apart from that, in your ignorance you have said that it is only the Mughals who have given us our treasure troves. It tickles my heart to tell you that you are mistaken. But then again, Paki History 101 students cannot be expected to do better. The architecture of Rajasthan (read Hindu) to a large extent is indigenous, check out the Hawa Mahal in Jaipur and weep. There are a large # of forts in India ex: Gwalior that were built by Hindus and were later used by Hindu rajas under Mughal suzerainty or the Mughals themselves. In fact many mosques in India were built with material pillaged from Hindu temples, of course minus the idols. There are many such mosques in India. Mughal emperors used to employ temple sculptors in the building of their edifices. The sculptors of Gujarat and Rajasthan were and are famous. The Jain temples at Mount Abu in Rajasthan will turn your heart green. The caves at Ellora and Ajanta and the stupas built by Ashoka before Christ all attest to the architectural greatness of India. Aside from the Mughals there were many dynasties that added to the architectural splendour of India. For example, Tughlaqabad, Lodi Gardens though now in ruins, were built by the Delhi Sultans. Tipu Sultan in the South, the Nawabs of Oudh and the Nizams of Hyderabad, the Vijaynagar rulers, Cholas, Cheras, Pandyas were all great builders. Let us not forget the Golden temple in Amristar, the Cathedral of St. Francis Xavier in Goa (one of the largest churches in Asia I believe) and my very own Qutubshahi monuments like Charminar.

Just because something is built by Muslims or made by Muslims, it doesnt` become anything less in the eyes of non-Muslims in India and vice-versa. The sarees made by a Hindu community are worn with great joy by Muslims and the pearl workmanship of Hyderabadi Muslims is appreciated by one and all. But how can I expect a person like you, brought up in a bigoted and intolerant clime to understand all of this. There is such a thing called humanity, where religion can be transcended and religious boundaries cease to matter.

The point is Scout Aunty, your forefathers and you choose to give up all of the above goodies and decided to move shop to Pakiland. I am glad that you did. The rest of us can now pool our creative energies and create better things for India without the poisonous atmosphere created by the likes of you. I advise you to take a Pepcid AC or two tonight. All that heartburn will give you sleepless nights.

Bye Bye Aunty

Kabuli

Reunified? Never.

Peaceful and friendly neighbours? Yes, definately a must do.

And the very first step towards peace and properity is to accept and respect the existance of Pakistan.

I agree with Scout once again ...

Where is Krashid by the way ???

The solution to Pakistan`s problems lies in outward looking positive Nationalism ...

You say Nationalism is dead ... On the contrary the era of Nation States is just beginning .... and Pakistan will be Inshallah one of them ....

Pakistani nationalism zindabad

Hi All. This is my 1st posting in Chowk. The whole issue that Pakistanis are struggling for an identity and Islam hardly has helped them. They are confused, misguided and stick to only one identity: the enemy of India.

The only way for the Pakistanis to get their identity is to abandon Islam and converted to a milder religion like Christianity. Nobody, nowhere in the world believes in muslim people, beacuse their ability to use Islam as a shelter, despite they are surely confused.

Hence lets not talk about Reunification. It has never happened between Muslim and Non Muslim people. Intolerence has isolated them worldover.

wooh wooh wooh..thats quite a discussion going on here..seems to be more like war..but alas the topic is no different from all those previous times..India,pakistan and kasmir..what a waste..

and you(the author) must be sleepy when you wrote about having a ``Union of South Asian States``.i mean what a joke...and trust me 1947 was no mistake..but don`t loose heart,as the saying goes;

`Don`t fear to be eccentric in your opinions,for every opinion now accepted was once eccentric.`

May Allah bless us all.Amen.

always,

Taimur.

Above the individual, there can be only one political entity - that is God Himself, and all His creations including life itself. So it is actually a waste of time to talk of Great Powers, nations and confederations. Nation-states are already fading into history books concerning the 19th and 20th centuries anyway. So: let us talk of joining hands to fight poverty (the only thing that really matters in South Asia today) and so on, and let national borders fade into insignificance.

PS: YLH, in response to my reference to your slogans you were good enough to try and explain that ``I hate India only because of their lack of respect for our foundation.`` In other words, there is a fear of India underlying your hatred. Please remember: Even if some Indian government thought it a good idea (and I am sure the thought crossed the minds of some folks across the border) to try an over-run Pakistan, that is no longer possible thanks to the stupidity of their own leaders starting with Indira Gandhi - by escalating military technology from conventional to nuclear weapons, they replaced their inherently superior position with parity. This will surely go down as one of History`s Greatest Blunders.

pennathur #86: ``I don`t give a damn how many terrorists get killed in JK. As for the people of JK (those 90% lazy bones) they`d better know what`s good for them. If not well - bad luck!``

This is an interesting comment. I am not quite sure whom you are refering to as the ``90% lazy bones.`` If you are refering to the Muslims in JK as the lazy bones, then I think I would have to detest your comment and admire it at the same time.

Detest, because you are openly showing religious and racial discrimination. Admiration, because you are one of the few Indians who actually have the courage to admit what, according to my experience and discussions with Indians, most (not all, but most) Indians actually feel about the people of JK.

Your reference to terrorists seem to indicate that it is the terrorists/militants who are causing all the problems in JK. I tend to disagree. I think the people of JK have been historically fed up with India. Would you agree that India should allow HR organizations entrance into JK to find out who is actually causing the problem? I would strongly support such an action. That way there would be no confusion. The Indian govt. completely opposes any HR organizations entering Kashmir. I am not quite sure whether the Indian public supports or opposes such an idea.

Thankyou Scout for your Kind words and support ...

That was what i said ... I really dont want to get into these Mudslinging matches .... there is a lot more to be discussed .... thats what makes articles like these meaningless and useless ....

I was always a Pakistani Nationalist and HAD fierce pride in who I was .. I am because of Pakistan ... otherwise I have nothing .... but I never hated India before .... I started hating India only after my Pakistani Nationalism was seen as a threat by Indians like Kabuli Wallah .....

Pakistan Zindabad

Pakistani Nationalism Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

I did not and am not planning on reading your post Kabuli Wallah though I skimmed through it ....

I am not out to convince you of the viability of the Two Nation Theory nor do I want some one like you liking Jinnah ....

The truth is that any rational reasonable human being who reads history objectively will reach the conclusions that I have .... only an Indian like yourself who has a narrow frame of thinking would say otherwise......

I wrote the name of the Book earlier ``Quaid e Azam

Muhammad Ali Jinnah and the creation of Pakistan`` who is by an Indian author who fought for independence in 1940s and was very anti Pakistan and anti Jinnah .... however his discourse in objective History which made him realize that everything is not black and white ...

You can accuse Jinnah of the massacres and murders ... I hold Nehru, Patel and Tara Singh responsible ... and I am not going to even try and convince you to change your views because yours are the kind of views that I like to see in Indians because it shows honesty ...You know where you can take your fascist Neo Nazi anti Pakistan philosophy .... Everyone in KabuliWallah we have someone who studied in the local Indian Educational system so we can safely say that he is prejudiced against Pakistan.... On the other Hand my nationalism did not arise out of

my education which WAS BRITISH AND AMERICAN for the most part ... instead it arose out of a careful study of History and of Jinnah .....it was only after I met the likes of KabuliWallah and Rsaxena etc that my Nationalism began to develop an anti-Indian outlook .....

In any event I agree with the conclusion of most historians of the Independence struggle that Jinnah was the most secular of all leaders in India and that he was forced to take up the cause of his nation only after a fair compromise was made impossible by Nehru, Patel and their henchmen .... These are not my words but the words of a Congressite who loves Nehru and Patel and was perhaps the most anti Jinnah and anti Pakistan people around ....

And now let me tell you something else .......

Pakistani Nationalism is not only my political outlook, or my pride but is my religion ... my denomination ... I am first second and last a Pakistani nationalist ... I might be a Muslim by faith and practice but my religion remains Pakistani Nationalism .... and there is no doubt that the fabric of this brand of Nationalism is culture which in the words of Zia Golkalp, the ideological Mentor of Ataturk, derives its inspiration from Religion

Pakistan Zindabad

Pakistani Nationalism Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

in response to Kabulliwallah....

the ``treasure troves`` you describe india as having, were mainly due to the Mughals, MUSLIM MUGHALS WHO BUILT BEAUTIFUL PALACES, THE TAJ MAHAL, THE GARDENS, THE FORTS.`` THE SHAHI CULTURE OF INDIA IS NOT DUE TO THE MAJORITY OF HINDUS, IT IS DUE TO THE MUSLIMS WHO LIVED THERE. GIVE CREDIT WHERE IT IS DUE PLEASE. THE GREAT CARPETRY AND EMBROIDERY, THE JEWELRY WAS PERSIAN, MUSLIM. MOST OF THE INDIAN BEAUTY YOU CLAIM TO HAVE, IS MUSLIM.

That`s quite a burden to carry, considering how

Anti-Islam most indians are. All I`m saying is that before bashing Islam, Indians should think about what Islam has given them, what muslim mughals have given India. THE MUSLIM MUGHALS GAVE INDIANS THE RICH HERITAGE THEY CLAIM AS THEIR OWN.

It`s just unfortunate that the boundaries weren`t drawn right when Pakistan was made. I`M PAKISTANI AND MY ANCESTORS BUILT THE TAJ MAHALS, THE SHEESH MAHALS, THE FORTRESSES THAT YOU SO PROUDLY CALL YOUR OWN. YOU MAINTAINED THEM WELL FOR US, THANK YOU, I`M HIGHLY APPRECIATIVE OF THAT.

YLH

don`t let anyone get you down by their name calling. people will call you names because you are passionate about something. and don`t measure worthiness with graduating from Ivy league colleges or alma maters. That is all a bunch of BS. A person from Podunk community college with a great mind and a passion for an idea can make waves of changes in this world. Bill Gates was a drop out and didn`t graduate from Harvard or Yale, and now he practically rules the world. our great mr. edhi wasn`t a so called ``western intellectual`` and look what he`s done for humanity. i can name countless examples. you have good ideals for Pakistan. work on those, forget India.

Let`s try and make Pakistan better and prosperous.

We have a long way to go, but with more people like you working collectively, we can get somewhere.

peace

scout

First of all I`d like to apologize to mr. udaya kumar for the childish attitudes of the Indians and Pakistanis replying to your article. I believe everyone has the right to express themselves, and CHOWK has the right to publish opinions (although, I have to say that CHOWK could do a better job publishing a more varied set of articles than the same old India/Pakistan/Kashmir mumbo jumbo). The ideals you mention in your article are all very GOOD AND MAHAAN AND PURE AND SIMPLE. But unfortunately, THE WORLD IS NOT MAHAAN AND GOOD AND SIMPLE, ESPECIALLY THE DESI WORLD.``

Reunification will never happen. It shouldn`t happen. Reunification of India and Pakistan is like trying to bring back together two spouses who went through a bitter divorce for years and years and are still battling for custody of a precious child (Kashmir). THE BEST THING TO DO IS LET THESE TWO BURY THE HATCHET AND PROGRESS SEPARATELY WITHOUT BLOODSHED. The first step towards progress is settling the issue of Kashmir. The fact that the United States and the UN are not getting involved in the kashmir issue lies in political interests. Unfortunately, some arrogant narrow minded Indians think that they are being favored over Pakistan when in actuality, they are being used.

The US does not have an undying love for India, it has political interest in India. That`s about it.

I believe the US wants to build a military base near India, or get the brains (young professionals) of India out of India and into the US. And how does one do that without some serious ``butt kissing.`` Once that is accomplished, who gives a f//k about India or indians. India, wake up and smell the coffee.

Keep your young professionals in your own country, and make your country better.

Just the fact that the majority of Pakistanis and Indians can`t get along, is enough to separate us, no matter how similar our languages, food, clothing, aur culture may be.

YLH, ``betay jazbaati nahi hotay.`` People like RSaxena and others, are just here to incite you into showing hate and trying to prove a point to themselves. Don`t let them effect you so much. Their whole purpose in coming to Chowk and paying so much attention to you and other Pakistanis is a little mind game. If RSaxena doesn`t give ``a rat`s ass`` about Pakistan, he wouldn`t even reply to this article.

But frankly, I think Pakistani Nationalism scares Indians into belittling Pakistanis as much as possible.

MESSAGE TO INDIANS : DON`T BE SCARED OF PAKISTANI NATIONALISM. iT`S A NATURAL EXPRESSION ONE FEELS FOR ONE`S COUNTRY. I DO NOT HATE INDIA BUT I LOVE PAKISTAN, AND IT`S HERE TO STAY AND PROSPER INSHALLAH. WE HAVE OUR PROBLEMS, YOU HAVE YOURS.

LETS JUST TRY TO SOLVE THOSE AND GET ON WITH LIFE.

LET`S GIVE KASHMIR TO THE KASHMIRIS!

Pakistan zindabad!

Independent Kashmir zindabad!

Salman Ahmed for PM (he`s just so cute)

Junaid Jamshed for President (ditto)

(stole your line YLH, hope you don`t mind)

YLH

Who you calling obsessive? Just look at the # of your posts. They probably account to 30 % of all the posts on Chowk. Go eat some sugar, maybe that will calm you down. You might think that your obsessive behavior might make people who disagree with you, admire you or something. It only makes them laugh and will look down upon you and think of you as being desperate.

Everyone has a right to their opinion. Why are you trying to stifle the convictions other people have just because they don`t agree with you? That is what fascism is, which your comrades in the RSS and co are trying to do. You hate them so much don`t you? But in reality you have a lot in common with them than you think (I know you`ll subject me to a lot of your banter for this later on, but I won`t let fascism win). You and them cannot tolerate dissent. Your sense of insecurity will match with theirs.

You accuse various people of being ignorant and boast of your multifarious talents every chance you get. May be your bubble will burst if you actually go and read what most Indians, including me have written on this inter-act. Most (I will not give accurate figures like 99% that you indulge in) Indians are not interested in Pakistan ever becoming part of India. Like Umairr said, it would be nice if Indians asked Pakistanis about this. It is precisely why we don`t want Pakistan to be part of India, not that if Pakistanis consented, we`d allow for reunification. Most Paksitanis hate India and most Pakistanis have not been as privileged as you and educated in American schools or whatever. Their brains have become mushed with the anti-Indian propaganda. And don`t say India indulges in this too. If you follow Indian news closely, the Sangh Parivar in India is trying very hard(and not very successfully) to introduce curriculum that is anti-Muslim in Indian History and by extension anti-Pakistani. Because our history text books(in govt schools, fundoo schools (both Hindu and Muslim) is another matter) don`t portray Muslims in a deprecating manner, they don`t portray Pakistan in a deprecating manner. Except that they don`t agree with TNT, but they don`t talk of reunification either. Indians did not and will not ever think of TNT as just and right. But that is our ethos (I`m not saying TNT is your ethos, it might or might not be, please make up your mind and tell me) On the other hand, in Pakistan you portray Hindus as the enemy and by extension India is the enemy. Despite the fact that there are around 120 million Muslims in India and a Hindu minority in Pakistan, Pakistanis are taught to hate Indians and Hindus. But that is none of India`s business. It is a Pakistani matter and hope that in a ``Perfect Pakistan`` you will address this.

As for me, I hope that there is peace between Pakistan and India. But just that, nothing more nothing less. Not even friendship. I don`t see India gaining anything with cooperation or friendship with Pakistan, except the possibility of a spillover of fundamentalism and guns and other notorious Pakistani manufactures. And tourism wise, except for Lahore, there ain`t much in Pakistan worth spending our bucks over, except of course the natural beauty. When you think about it, it is the Pakistanis who have a lot to gain over friendship with India. The shrine of Baba Chisti at Ajmer, Delhi, Agra, Lucknow, Hyderabad, Bhopal, and countless other treasure troves and if they are still not miraculously exhausted, thousands of beautiful temples, cities, forts and pilgrimage centers, other than of course, our pristine natural beauty. You`d think that us evil Hindu Baniyas would be greedily awaiting your tourism money, but I don`t think the extra baggage of Pakistani manufactures I`ve mentioned above is a price Indians are willing to pay for your monies. But I wonder if many Indians will agree with me over this, especially in North India. You see, many North Indians are descendants of what are now Pakistanis. They have that nostalgia of the land where their ancestors are buried or burnt or whatever. But that doesn`t mean that they somehow want to reunify India with Pakistan.

You cry again and again that Pakistan was not meant to be a theocratic state, that Jinnah meant for it to be something else (And I still don`t like Jinnah and hold him responsible for murder, the explanation for another time, this one is too long already). But it didn`t turn out that way did it? All that matters to emigrants from Pakistan and Indians in general is that Pakistan did become a theocratic state and non-Muslims (bar Christians and Parsis) were either, killed, converted or thrown out. That is all that matters, the ground reality. Not what it was supposed to be, but what it became and what it is. Don`t you ever feel that you country has lost something very deep and valuable? It has lost its composite character. It has lost its Hindus and Sikhs who also belonged in that land but alas had to leave it. (We don`t want to undo partition) But that is none of India`s business. All we care about is that whatever refugees(including Muslims, Muslim Mewatis returned after things settled down) arrived in India, are well cared for and looked after in India and India has been successful in that, as I`m sure you have been kind to your Muhajirs. All this doesn`t mean that Muslims didn`t suffer during Partition. They did and you will say that Indians started it and Muslims only retaliated. Whatever. I don`t care who started and who retaliated. All that matters is the result of all that. We did not want partition, you did. (Not that we want to undo partition.) Partition to Indians was a nightmare, irrespective of who started the killings. The end result is that Pakistan has been purged of most of its Hindus and Sikhs(but again, your problem and for your to ponder) and India is still a composite culture with all creeds trying to live together in peace. You make fun of our secularism and say that it is unreasonable and TNT is right. What is your solution? Send Muslims to Pakistan? What if they don`t want to go and never did want to? If not that you say that minorities are persecuted in India and give various examples of mosques and churches. No one said Secularism is easy, but we are trying. The present BJP led NDA will be kicked out the instant they try to implement the unsavory aspects of their notorious Hindutva. We are doing our darned best to make Secularism work and for 50+ years it has more or less worked. And damned be the day that India will ever succumb to TNT. But you only ridicule secularism and say it is illogical, but then again say minorities are being persecuted. (Somehow I have this feeling that you mention secularism as your ideal for Pakistan in many of your numerous posts) Damned if you do, damned if you dont, eh? Your minds are confused, ours aren`t. We believe in an India that is free. We became free in 1947 of the British but unfortunately haven`t yet of the ills of society. And (in Muslim parlance) Inshallah we will achieve that day. We have the hope and the will to achieve that day because our foundations are strong (I`m not saying your foundations are weak) and no amount of Indian-bashing from you will make us waiver in our determination. But that it seems, you don`t want. You pretend to be speaking out for Muslims in India, but in reality you want them to suffer. You want them to be humiliated so that you can proudly and satisfactorily tell yourselves and the world that TNT was right (We don`t want to undo partition). Who are the enemies of Indian Muslims? Hindus or Pakistanis?

Kabuli

Dear Uday,

This is the most ridiculous suggestion I have heard! Federation of States within the Indian sub-continent!? Wheerever was that need? Just because you want ``peace`` in JK at any cost doesn`t mean this!

I don`t give a damn how many terrorists get killed in JK. As for the people of JK (those 90% lazy bones) they`d better know what`s good for them. If not well - bad luck!