Indians and Pakistanis Must Start Anew

Kabuliwallah #204

Thanks for the information. Its sad that we are forced to deconstruct even our daily lives and relationships we take for granted down to such microscopic levels, thats also a type of destruction, and I personally am fed up of it.

Being a Hindu is a real handicap around here, something I never felt even once while spending nights and days with even the most religiously-inclined `minorities` among my friends. There were friends who even tried to convert me, but they and their families didnot ever imply that I was anything less or more or even different than them in the essentials that mattered as friends and associates, as I myself never considered them to be. (Here I am deconstructing again what we take for granted :-)).

BTW, I join the chorus about your posts, which are very informative and balanced, thanks.

Sadhana

JB Sameer #207

I enjoy reading your posts and I appreciate your

efforts to lean on facts and not emotions. Right

now, I am extending my argument in my previous

post to reply to your statement ``….

re-approachment between India and Pakistan is

..difficult.``

I submit that:

(1) I agree that the task of re-approachment

between India and Pakistan can be catagorized

between difficult to impossible. But should we

undertake it? Certainly not . I believe that the

cost of doing so and the cost of resulting

complications is much higher than its

advantages.

(2) In my view, the best scenario will be when

both countries will severe relations with each

other but have an understanding not to interfere

in each others affairs. I do not, however, see

even this happening in near future.

You see, the World is becoming smaller and

smaller. Whether we like it or not, we all

countries are competing with each other for

material benefits and quality of life. Therefore

no country can afford to waste resources. The

exercise of re-approachment is such an exercise

where the cost is immense in terms of time ,

efforts, and resources and the output, at best,

is uncertain.

On the other hand, if we divert the same amount

of resources to educating our masses with

necessary skills , it will help us

economically and give us ability to understand

the cost which we are paying by not being friends

with each other.

We should deal and compete with the world; not

with each other. We have to give time to cool off

our passions to hate and our obsession to show

each other that we belong to a superior lot. This

mentality is in-built in South Asia. We all

know that in reality, we both are doing much

poorly and we ha

Krashid #211

I can not help but comment on `` … Indian Muslims

have better opportunities in Pakistan..``. That

being the case, there should have been big lineups

of Indian refugees waiting to enter Pakistan and

its consulates!

Right now, Indian Muslims are spilling their blood

and sweat in order to fight Pakistan. Kargil is a

such a place where Indians of all religion have

faced the bullets and embraced death because

they believed in India. The richest Indian is a

Muslim and architect of India`s atomic program

is a proud Muslim. If you need any further

clarification, talk to ``Altaf`` of MQM fame.

Thanks but do not be overly concerned with India`s

dis-integration. There are one billion people who

are pouring their hearts and wallets to safeguard

India against that. Do whatever you want to do,

but leave India out of your sympathy. There are

enough people to take care of that and we do not

need friends like you. I think you should be more

conce

Re :Sameer

Let me begin by saying that I like your posts, the obvious thought that goes into each of them. But I have a nit to pick -

You wrote `` There are those who consider themselves nobles (Aryans) from somewhere between Ukraine and Mongolia, and hope to revive the glory times of their hegemonic control over masses.``

Excuse me, but that is not at all true. You see, there are two school of thought in India. The official establishment, fast losing ground now, which believes in the now almost thoroughly discredited `Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT)`. It is this school of thought, sometimes called the 3M alliance (Macaulayintes-Missionaries-Marxists) which believes that Aryans were a separate race, who came to India at about 1500BC. Then they got signs of Indus Valley civilization and tried to explain it as an earlier civilization which invading Aryans destroyed. But it doesnot jell... there are too many loose ends. Moreover, this theory has never been used in India by `Aryan supremacists` since the people who could do that never believed in this theory. It has been always used by people who like to think themselves as `anti-Aryans` in some way or other, such as dalit activists, many varieties of separatists..

On the other side are the AIT-opposers, most, but not all, of them in broad sympathy with the so called `hindu nationalism`, in other words, your suspected proponents of aryan supremacy. But they believe, with scientific backup, that India was the original home of Indian. Aryans were not a race, but as you wrote, the word Arya means `noble` in Sanskrit. It was the time when the AIT originated, late 19th century, that drove the indologists of that time (Max Mueller, Wheeler etc.) to put forward this theory without an iota of proof. And then plenty of proof arose, but colonial masters could never accept that they were wrong, could they? I could discuss all this in detail, but this forum maynot be a suitable place for that. If you`d like to know more about this debate, please write books by Foueurstein et al, or the articles on this topic by Koenraad Elst.

ylh #81

I was just passing through. Saw your letter.

Hamdani, Berkhurdarm, never worry about these ignorant [one track-ed; blind to history, Indians].

Never apologize for the Pakistani education either.

I went to the Corporation High School, Mozang, in Lahore. Then to Government College, Lahore and the Punjab University.

I have, in the West, represented the UNESCO Commission of an important country for three years. Made 13 recommendations out of which 9 have been adopted by the UNESCO; been Director of many South Asian Programs, and Associations` Boards, taught Indians their Socio-cultural history and demographic analyses of India. Edited books on Indian society in which the nominated Indian editors were not able to help.[Although they were always, ``avil-able``!]

I am still on the Research Board for Adjudication of Research Proposals for and about India [big time money; rarely for less than half a million dollars] on India MOSTLY BY INDIANS! I also adjudicate many proposals on an about India and Indians seeking research funds from the Western Governments` Research Councils. [All this because I am recognized as an ``expert`` on Indo-Pak society and recent history.] I am also, asked for interviews on the television and radio when something newsworthy in the sub-continent happens.

Last month my name, alongwith some others whose research efforts were recognized, was included in a Bronze plaque, suitably installed at a location where everybody visiting a prestigious institution will see it for as long as that plaque lasts.

All this from education at the Corporation High School. So what`s wrong with the near-Khairati school education in Pakistan?

I must, now that I am on this topic, indicate that a few years ago (1995), I saw in a book on Social Studies being used at the Aitchison College, Lahore, that it said that the [All India] Congress was not honest in its objectives in the 1930s and 1940s [something ALL OF US know as an historical fact] but I did not like that young people should be taught that without //evidence// such things be accepted as facts. It sounded as an unfair mention of the A.I. Congress. So, I wrote to the Director of Punjab Text Book Board, Professor A. Kabir Hashmi, who promised that such mention of the A.I. Congress shall be corrected. I doubt that in the whole of Pakistan I was the only person protesting [even such mild] ``uncivilities``. I think our education is all right, although as anywhere else, and perhaps more so in our countrieS, it always has room for improvement.

So, Barkhurdarm Hamdani, please do not apologize for the Pakistani education so far as teaching and imparting of KNOWLEDGE OF, AND ABOUT, INDIA IS CONCERNED. Physics, mathematics, chemistry etc., is another matter.

And, finally, I used my personal example above since ``autobiography`` comes easily to mind. I have seen examples of persons universes above me in such matters from both Pakistan AND India. I feel the argument, now, is devoid of all merit, is vacuous, and should be given up by your tormentors.

Take an oath not to respond to such arguments and ``points`` in future. That is a better answer than writing.

One or two final, age-derived, bits of wisdom: Never be modest. It is an overly valued trait. As John K. Galbraith, on a poster in his office says, ``Modesty is not one of my weaknesses``. After all, it stands to reaso, does it not, that if YOU do not blow your own horn, why would any body else?

Always retain your sense of humour. Make silly moves; keep the child in you alive. Look at me, I am on the Chowk!

Pardesi #182

Very soul searching.

I don`t know about Indian Muslims. In 1947 purpose of Pakistan was partially achieved. To find a better opportunity for Muslims of India.

Also, not only Punjabi Muslims, but Muslims from other parts of India, including UP, Dehli, Bihar, Hyderabad, Gujrat, Kashmir etc are immensely successful in Pakistan.

Almost all the rulers, including Pervez Musharraf, Nawaz Sharif, Benazir, Zia-ul-Haq, Z A Bhutto etc are first or second generation of those migrants. Prior to democracy, they were almost totally dominant in all fields.

I don`t know about democracy or secularism in India, but this is probably a small period, when BJP and other right are oblivious of the minority aspirations.

The rift within the ruling class will once again give the minorities their voice.

Otherwise, nobody can prevent disintegeration of India.

Mohajir #198

I have asked many people who have been revived from death. Meaning CPR. All they remember is that what happened before, and what happened after. I specifically asked them about tunnel and light thing. But they had no experience.

May be the book you read has selling value only, as is any fiction.

As far as saying Allah OM. I don`t get your point.

Even five people in a household are different with different philosophies, but they live together in harmony.

If you mean by Allah OM, that everybody should shirk away their thoughts for yours, you are on wrong foot.

If you mean by this that different religion can live in harmony and peace, that has happened in most of Muslim rule in Hindustan.

Sameer JB# 207

You have to differentiate between hegemony and competition.

As long as Indian army is kept at bay and terms are on equal basis, there is a chance as you are describing.

Otherwise who is going to stop Indian products to be forced into the throat of Pakistanis. (As they did to their own countrymen).

If we have to accept a hegemon why should be opt for a third rate country with a fourth rate economy.

Sameer ji, thanks for exploring the roots of the word Chugatay. I had some idea that it is associated with the old times of mughal supermacy as in my part of Punjab we usually refer to old/out of fashion or out of use things as ``chuagateya de veile di``. e.g....if you want to ridicule someone`s old fashioned dress you will say``oye aah kurta kithoN kaD liyanda tu, chugateyaN de veile da?``

Dear Kabuliwalla: I understand yours as well as Pardesi`s point that rapproachement under current circumstances is difficult. This point has been made by several other respondents; politely and in decent manner by some and arrogantly by others.

It is important to understand that rapproachement is a broad and wide spectrum. It may mean different for different people. Almost all of us agree that it is not possible to have a political union at this stage but that is the extreme end of rapproachement. Before we even start thinking about it seriously, there are hundreds or thousands of things which can be done for mutual benefit of the people of sub-continent. A people to people contact, as it happened in the cases of Indian school children visiting Pakistan and a delegation of Pakistani ladies visiting India, is absolutely essential for a good starting point. This is the other end of rapproachement.

A common fear among Pakistanis is the perception of rapproachement leading to Indian hegemony. Again, hegemony has a broad and wide ranging spectra. We all accept the hegemony of our parents and elders which is even coercive at times. We accept the hegemony, both coercive and non-coercive, of corporate bosses because we want salaries as well as promotions. Most Pakistanis have accepted the hegemony of Indian movies and hindi music without coercion. Similarly most Indians have accepted the hegemony of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan in the Qawwali market and Ghulam Ali/ Mehdi Hasan in the ghazal singing. All relationships have to be mutually beneficial to work. For example, Maruti car can only be hegemonic through serious coercion in the Pakistani Market because it does not match up to existing Suzukis, Hondaa and Toyotas. Similarly pickles from Vijaywara will not compete well against Ahmad`s and Mitchell`s from Pakistan. Also Pakistani agarbattis will dominate the Indian Market. These are few funny examples. More importantly, Pakistan can buy surplus Indian wheat and tea without paying heavy price for shipping and insurance whereas India can buy sugar and power from Pakistan. Both countries can fight together against the patenting of Basmati rice in the USA. Both countries export cotton and should work together to lock up this market against Uzbek cotton. It would be even better if they prefer to sell it as value added thread or cloths. I bet many rich Sindhis would love to invest in Pakistani Sindh and help raise their standard of living. The benefits of cooperation are tremendous. No coercion needed. What is Pakistan to fear about when they know too well that they have got a rough parity in defending their countries (nuclear). I believe Pakistan has come long way in the last 53 years and they should be confident in cooperative dealing with India.

However, if we kept behaving the way some of us do here on chowk, even resolving the Kashmir issue will do nothing to improve the relationships. We need to corner those people who think of nuking each other or reviving the long past Muslim empires of India; these handful of extremists are dooming the future of millions. At least in Pakistan, these people have contributed nothing; no taxes, no education and no harmony. Most of them actually opposed the creation of Pakistan and now they want to use it as a springboard to reestablish the totaliterian control once enjoyed by their ancestors.

There is a term for them in Punjabi. It is called ``chughtey``. The root of this word is chughtai (Mughals considered themselves Chughtai turks). It is modified in Urdu as ``chughad``, usually used for dumm and stupid. In Punjabi it used to be referred to those people who kept considering themselves nobles, based on Central Asian ancestory, even after their glory days were long over. They looked down upon non-nobles and expected them to sacrifice whatever they can, so that they can reestablish their lost status. Same is true in India. There are those who consider themselves nobles (Aryans) from somewhere between Ukraine and Mongolia, and hope to revive the glory times of their hegemonic control over masses.

Both groups are mistaken. India is not ready to give in to nobles of Aryan or Italian kind and Pakistanis are not interested to be infested by the locust of Central Asian kind. Time and again, in every election in Pakistan, these people were thoroughy routed and come next time--it will produce the same outcome. Pakistanis are not going to be fooled by Alap-tageen, Subak-tageen, Aaq-Qatkhan, Qalpach Khan, Avimaq Chooghta and Tughrals. These are Muslim names and Jai Singh, Hardayal and Ashok are unislamic?

vande matram #194

``What India needs to worry is not to get nuked by Pakis and nuke Pakistan before they do, otherwise vast number of Indians will perish.``

I disagree with you wholeheartedly. I believe Clinton should nuke the whole subcontinent and put an end to it`s misery. The innocent will have a ball in heaven, while the corrupt will have dinner with the devil.

In either case, justice will be served.

First of all Mr Naqshbandi ... It will help if you seperated your religious views from the argument ... whereas let me assure you that I prescribe to all the beliefs of Islam that you seemmto believe in ... afterlife etc ... I dont feel that it is necessary for Muslims to involve religion into politics which inevitably leads to

its exploitation ....having said that I fully prescribed to the concept of religion being a major factor in ethnicity ...and hence I believe that the Pakistan Movement was a south asian Muslim nationalist movement.... and not a movement for Islam ... Muslim unity as a great mobilizer cannot be denied ....however this unity is a thin fabric which is destroyed as soon as

somebody like you imposes his own version of Islam ... on others ... it is also important to note that I believe that Islam is the most rational and Modern of all religions and hence is totally compatible with Modern secular democratic institutions .....and Jinnah seemed to believe this too .....

Whereas you can rightfuly accuse Ataturk of going to far on the path of secularism ... you cannot accuse him of being a traitor to the Muslims and Turkey ... his struggle the Turkish War of independence was one of the greatest victories of Islamic World achieved against the Greeks and british .... the Turk Nationalism that he espoused atleast was based on the definition of ethnicity according to Religion ... hence the treaty between Greece and Turkey on 30th January 1923 .... you can accuse him of turning against the religion per say but you cannot accuse him of being against the interests of Muslims ....He was during that time widely hailed as a great hero amongst Indian Muslims .... infact there had been appeals from the likes of you to become the Khalifah ...

So let me come to the August institution of Khilafah that you seem to cherish .... let me remind you of a few basic things ...

a) Khilafa is temporal power and not spiritual ..

b) Abu Bakr was the Khalifa tul rasool ALLAH ... BY THE TOKEN uMER SHOULD HAVE BEEN kHALIFAH TUL KHALIFAH TUL RASool allah ... and Usman should have been Khalifah tul Khalifah tul Khalifah tul rasool allah ... Ali khalifah tul Khalifah tul Khalifah tulKhalifah tul rasool Allah ....

but the earlier sahaba used the title ameer ul Momineen ... the Lord of the faithful ... .and not Khalifah ....

In any event the original Khilafah was democratic inessence ... once the Khilafah became monarchial .... it was not the true Khilafah any more ... not to mention that the word Khilafah is wrong in essence and there is no historic or religious justification for having kept it ...

The morals of the Ottomans were questionable ... so they can hardly be described as holy or sacred .....

Usmani Khilafah that you have taken a liking to was near its end ... turkey was destroyed and near ruin .... Ataturk saved Turkey ....

and just to respond to your allegation that he was a british agent ... the British actually supported the ottoman regime and tried to arrest and stop Ataturk`s nationalist followers many time ... Maybe you forget that the Khalifah was a prisoner of the British in Istanbul ....

Till the eventual military victory of Ataturk against the greeks in the battle of Dalmunpur ...

the British refused to even acknowledge his government let alone support him ....

to suggest that he was a british agent is as absurd of an attempt as Indians who try to claim the same for Jinnah and the Pakistan movement ..

However he did go a step too far in his cultural reform ... Ataturk`s blunder is perhaps best described Imran Khan in his book All round view ...

``Ataturk, the great Turk Nationalist made one big blunder ... he thought that by aping the western civilization he could progress.... overnight Turkey shunned its magnificent culture ``

Nobody doubts however that ATATURK WAS Turkey`s saviour ... the Khhilafah had to go ... its an old ancient institution ... which can only help to obscure the future of Muslims even more....

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

re: tahmed321# 191

You are right, what was done was not enough. I should have added the phrase `if its any consolation`.

re: vande mataram # 194

I am sorry you feel that way. There is another person , who goes by the username Sarwari, on another board who says, ``Indians being tolerant, is a label that is on the wrong product.`` So you see, the feeling is mutual on both sides. It is unfortunate. This suspicion and lack of trust arises due to ignorance and lack of understanding. This can be eradicated through knowledge and education. I am not saying that you are uneducated. I am saying that the general mahaul in India and Pakistan is such that each people thinks of the other in rather inhuman and barbaric terms. The inhumane and the barbaric are in small numbers on both sides and a minority. But ignorance leads us to believe that it is the same all over.

However I agree with you that this reapproachment business is impractical and I believe will only lead to more hurt. However, there should be other things that we have to be more concerned about, like strengthening our country through literacy, providing decent livelihood to all people and elimination of bigotry and injustice. I have always advocated peaceful relations between India and Pakistan to achieve the above mentioned. But I have also said to leave it at just that, peace. No soft border or anything of that sort. India and Pakistan due to history, will always have conflict of interests and things like soft borders and too close people-to-people contacts will complicate matters. Let me give you an example. I forsee a long and difficult struggle for India against China in the future for markets, control of shipping routes etc. In such a struggle we cannot expect Pakistan to support India, as it is an `all-weather friend` of China. This is only one example of a conflict of interests. I am not advocating hatred for Pakistan, I`m only arguing for co-existence and India`s strategic interests.

To end this, I`d like to repeat that education is a prerequisite to remove the cobwebs from peoples` minds and to impart education we need peace and progress. Peace, yes, but lets be happy with that.

re: Sadna

My mother tells me that in Hyderabad, many of the people selling the camphor, coconuts, flowers and other temple paraphernalia are Muslims. Just thought I`d let you know that :)

regards,

Kabuli

This article was interesting if a little too utopian in its views. And I don`t agree that we should unite --not in the foreseeable future at least and probably not ever. Pakistan happened. Whether you agree with it or not. And we are proud of it and we must make it as prosperous as we can, insha Allah.

As far as hating India goes..I do not hate India one little bit. (does that make me any less of a patriotic Pakistani? No!)I have in fact quite a lot of affection for India. How can I hate a land which has 140 million Muslims?! A land which my ancestors ruled? It was the Muslim dynasties which made India the envy of the world for its wealth!(What I DO hate is the treatment of the Kashmiri brethren and the RSS/BJP waalahs.)...

Insha Allah one day India *will * be united--under the banner of the Islamic Caliphate when Hazrat Imam Mahdi alahi salaam comes near the end of time to unite the world under the banner of La ilaaha il Allah :-)

Meanwhile, can`t we try to live together in peace and get on with improving the lot of the unfortunate millions who live there? How about starting by giving everyone access to fresh, clean, water....

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Finally YLH I was deeply offended by this comment of yours,

``Because I revere Jinnah like I revere the Prophet ...``

Astaghfirullah! How can you even make this statement and claim to be a Muslim! I respect the Qauid very much (as the founder of Pakistan)--but this is ridiculous! He was just a human being with all the faults of humans. Sarkar e Do Aalam are perfect and infallible and this is the aqeedah of the Muslims. The very dust on which Our Master sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam walked is more precious than the lives of a million Quaid-e-Azams! The dogs of Madina are more precious! How dare you compare the two!

Kithay Mihr Ali, kithay teri sanaa

GustaakH akhieeN kithay jaa aRiyaaN!

That comment of yours has made me really angry! Talk fo idol worship---aren`t you in danger of turning the Qauid into an idol?!

I think he should be able to be criticised more openly in Pakistan instead of holding him up like a lofty perfect being like we do...(in Turkey btw it is an offense to criticise that traitor Ataturk)

vande matram should actually read `wande mataram`

sub-continental languages do not have the `f` tone that defines the english `v`.

matram of course is just wrong and should be mataram.

your spelling abilities and your youthful rabidity are familiar; are you from rutgers?

regards

aakar patel

But I agree with your premise that Pakistanis and Indians dont want reunification ....

I am the first one to oppose it as is Mr Kabuli Wallah ...

Doesnt mean that we cant be friends ...