Indians and Pakistanis Must Start Anew

we should look towards cooperation with south-asian countries like nepal, srilanka and bangladesh. there`s no point in wasting time over pakistan. ( i thought it was in the central asia anyway ).

PS: udaykumar ? you are not related to prafful bidwai are you ?

Asif Naqshbandi!

I think, Ata-Turk might have read a post of yours before writing his comments.

Asif Naqshbandi!

You answer is ``Uzr Gunaah Badtar as Gunaah``

Did you forget many Hadith regarding dogs``

If dog is Najis, how can you compare it with a human being.

Remember the Hadith and it is especially for you.

That previous nations have been destroyed because they kept their prophets and saints in the esteem which they did not had.

Or are you too much influenced by Qais to negate all the Hadith to substantiate your point.

Sheesh Naag bhai,

Your post made me smile :-)

I have not denied that Huzoor Pur-Noor sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam are a human being and the most perfect ``abd`` of Allahu Ta`ala. But they are not like other beings, like Imam Busiri has said a ruby is a stone but not like other stones. Huzoor are Habib Allah, Rasool Allah, noor, they received Wahy, etc .etc. there is no way we can compare an ordinary person to the Best of Creation sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam, the best of men. Remember the hadith ``which one of you is like me?!``

BUT my friend the point about the dogs of Madina being better than the Qaid--which is what I wrote--was not meant to denigrate Qaid e Azam (I respect him as the founder of Pakistan) but rather show the unimaginably high status of Our Master Sayyidina wa Mawlana Rasool Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam! ONly Allah knows the true status of His Beloved! As Our Master said,`` O Abu Bakr! No one knows my true self except My Lord!`` (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam!) and Allah confirms this in the Qur`an:

TRuly, (O My Beloved Prophet!) thou art of a magnificent character!

It is about ishq you see. Remember the story about when Qays kissed the paws of Layla`s dog? His friends said you are truly mad (majnoon) for kissing a dog! He said but it is the dog of my beloved and therefore beloved to me as well! So, my point was that the dogs of madina are nothing in themselves--it was not meant as a literal statement bhai--BUT because of the NISBAT (link) with Huzoor sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam`s city--they are the dogs of the Beloved Prophet`s city!--they are elevated! Do you understand? Any thing linked to the beloved is beloved itself!

As the great Indian scholar and Sufi ala hazrat Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi alayhirahmat has said,

Raza kissi sag-e-Taiyyiba kay paon bhi choomay?

Tum aur aah! ke itna dimaagh lay kay chalay!

and also,

Farsh waalay teri shaukat ka `uloo kya jaanein?

Khusrava! Arsh pe uRtaa hai pharaira tera!

Another two couplets of Ala Hazrat to sign off:

Tujh se dar, dar se sag aur sag se hai mujh ko nisbat

Meri gardan mein bhi hai door ka Dawra tera!

Is nishaani kay jo sag hain nahin maare jaatay

khashr tak mere gallay mein rahe paTTa tera!

ameen!

[sag = dog in Farsi]

ghulaam az ghulaamaan-e-Rasool,

Abd al Mustafa

Asif

p.s. to YLH -- who cares if Qaid e Azam was against the Caliphate? Since when has he been a religious authority?! He founded Pakistan and may Allah bless him for that but that is all.

And if it wasn`t for the Naqshbandis half of the Muslims of Indo-Pak would be worshipping the Sun and other kufr practices introduced by Akbar in his court as part of the Deen-i-Ilaahi! It was Hazrat Mujaddid Alf al Thani quds sirruhu and his descendants who purified Islam and were responsible for the failure of the Deen e Ilaahi.

Apart from the Messenger of Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam no one else is perfect or infallible amongst the Creation and so you should not almost worship Ataturk. He called Our Beloved Prophet ``that illiterate bedouin`` (astaghfirullah ! May Allah forgive me for writing such words even) and other things of a derogatory nature and for this I hate him and the ulama have declared him a zindeeq and a kaafir.

I will find the exact quotes by Ataturk and then you will see his true nature insha Allah.

Sheesh Naag bhai,

Your post made me smile :-)

I have not denied that Huzoor Pur-Noor sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam are a human being and the most perfect ``abd`` of Allahu Ta`ala. But they are not like other beings, like Imam Busiri has said a ruby is a stone but not like other stones. Huzoor are Habib Allah, Rasool Allah, noor, they received Wahy, etc .etc. there is no way we can compare an ordinary person to the Best of Creation sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam, the best of men. Remember the hadith ``which one you is like me?!``

BUT my friend the point about the dogs of Madina being better than the Qaid--which is what I wrote--was not meant to denigrate Qaid e Azam (I respect him as the founder of Pakistan) but rather show the unimaginably high status of Our Master Sayyidina wa Mawlana Rasool Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam! ONly Allah knows the true status of His Beloved! As Our Master said,`` O Abu Bakr! No one knows my true self except My Lord!`` (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam!) and Allah confirms this in the Qur`an:

TRuly, (O My Beloved Prophet!) thou art of a magnificent character!

It is about ishq you see. Remember the story about when Qays kissed the paws of Layla`s dog? His friends said you are truly mad (majnoon) for kissing a dog! He said but it is the dog of my beloved and therefore beloved to me as well! So, my point was that the dogs of madina are nothing in themselves--it was not meant as a literal statement bhai--BUT because of the NISBAT (link) with Huzoor sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam`s city--they are the dogs of the Beloved Prophet`s city!--they are elevated! Do you understand? Any thing linked to the beloved is beloved itself!

As the great Indian scholar and Sufi ala hazrat Imam Ahmad Raza Khan Barelvi alayhirahmat has said,

Raza kissi sag-e-Taiyyiba kay paon bhi choomay?

Tum aur aah! ke itna dimaagh lay kay chalay!

and also,

Farsh waalay teri shaukat ka `uloo kya jaanein?

Khusrava! Arsh pe uRtaa hai pharaira tera!

Another two couplets of Ala Hazrat to sign off:

Tujh se dar, dar se sag aur sag se hai mujh ko nisbat

Meri gardan mein bhi hai door ka Dawra tera!

Is nishaani kay jo sag hain nahin maare jaatay

khashr tak mere gallay mein rahe paTTa tera!

ameen!

[sag = dog in Farsi]

ghulaam az ghulaamaan-e-Rasool,

Abd al Mustafa

Asif

p.s. to YLH -- who cares if Qaid e Azam was against the Caliphate? Since when has he been a religious authority?! He founded Pakistan and may Allah bless him for that but that is all.

And if it wasn`t for the Naqshbandis half of the Muslims of Indo-Pak would be worshipping the Sun and other kufr practices introduced by Akbar in his court as part of the Deen-i-Ilaahi! It was Hazrat Mujaddid Alf al Thani quds sirruhu and his descendants who purified Islam and were responsible for the failure of the Deen e Ilaahi.

Apart from the Messenger of Allah sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam no one else is perfect or infallible amongst the Creation and so you should not almost worship Ataturk. He called Our Beloved Prophet ``that illiterate bedouin`` (astaghfirullah ! May Allah forgive me for writing such words even) and other things of a derogatory nature and for this I hate him and the ulama have declared him a zindeeq and a kaafir.

#200

Naqshbandi Bhaii: O` méria sohnia mahia! I am a `born` Muslim. Muslim of sorts, as it were. But I listen and weave my own taar with the Almighty.

Now, my parents used to lay great emphasis on the following: La Illaha il Allah ho Mohammad, //abda hu//, wa Rasul ... . [My spellings of Arabic are atrocious, I know, but I am not going to commit suicide over it. So, grin and bear.]

The way my parents recited the Kalama, they emphasized the Prophet was His //banda// [human being like you and I] first and ``then``, [implied] His Rasul. This last description setting him apart from all other human beings. So far so good.

Now where did you bring in the dogs of Medina being better than... etc.

Wouldn`t it be Kufr to declare a dog better than His Ashraf`ul`makh`luqat? Now you don`t want to throw a gauntlet to the Almighty? Do you? You are already working within thhe confines of faith. So you`ve got to go along with Him.

Dekho Chaudhry Sahib: A dog is a dog is a dog. Anywhere. No dog of any goddamn place is better than a human being if you have brains or if you are a ``Muslim``. In the rational sense some dogs are better friends of their owners than their friends; [bring you your slippers, your paper, you kick `em, they still come to you, etc.] But that`s where their superiority over God`s Crowning Glory, Ashraf`ul`makh`luqat, ends.

You want to make something out of it? All right.

An inadequately imagined nation

By Dileep Padgaonkar

ISLAMABAD: Someone had once referred to Pakistan as an inadequately imagined nation. The writer obviously had in mind the flawed two-nation theory. Instructive in this regard is Gen. Musharraf`s answer to a question by a Bangladeshi editor at the impromptu press conference on July 2. The editor wanted to know what steps the Chief Executive, who had described himself as a man of peace, would take to ``heal the wounds of 1971``.

This was perhaps the only time that the General appeared to lose his cool. Here is what he had to say to the editor: ``Pakistan does not owe Bangladesh anything. Both sides made mistakes. We should forget the past. There were feelings of hurt on both sides. If you`re talking about compensations, reparations or some such thing, I`m afraid that is not possible.``

The birth of Bangladesh had demonstrated that culture and language were more important than religion to form the basis of a state. But there are few takers for that view in Pakistan. Nothing, not even the breakup of the country in the wake of a terrible genocide, would be allowed to challenge the two-nation theory.

In the history taught to Pakistanis, according to K K Aziz, the developments of 1971 receive cursory treatment. Students are told that Bengal played an insignificant role in the political awakening and cultural renaissance of the Indian Muslims, that it had a minor part in the growth of the Pakistan movement and that the East Pakistanis were always troublesome and disloyal. Students are, therefore, led to believe that the secession was a desirable development which deserves to be treated as a non-event.

Evidence of the ``inadequately imagined nation`` surfaces here in many garbs. For example, asked to explain the distinction between terrorism and jehad, the general said while he loathes terrorism, he uses the word jehad to indicate a struggle. It could be a struggle against poverty or illiteracy. In the same breath, however, he added it is the duty of every Muslim to rush support to Muslims who face oppression anywhere, including, in the first place, Kashmir. The word thus gradually acquired its original religious hue.

Take another example. At his improvised press conference, General Musharraf was questioned about Pakistani fears that India was not reconciled to Partition. Had these fears not dissipated following Atal Behari Vajpayee`s visit to the Minar-e-Pakistan in Lahore? The general replied that the gesture was purely symbolic, that it lacked sincerity. Why? Because Vajpayee had not committed himself to resolving the Kashmir dispute in accordance with the wishes of the Kashmiri people. Echoes, yet again, of the ``unfinished business of Partition``.

The need to ideologically demarcate itself from India often takes a bizarre turn. For the first time since 1947, Pakistan has officially objected to the use of the term ``Indian sub-continent``. It is only a matter of time, it would appear, before it finds fault with the term ``Indian Ocean``. Indeed, one Pakistani commentator does not like the term ``South Asia`` as well.

``When we talk of South Asia,`` writes Nazir Naji, ``Pakistan is relegated to the position of the backyard of a large sprawling India, whereas emotionally, culturally and mentally we are the beachhead of Central Asia and the Gulf. The term South Asia must comprehend within its meaning the special strategic dimensions of Pakistan.``

Against this background, one is left wondering whether Pakistan`s existential woes will end even if it manages to gain control of the Valley.

Asif Naqshbandi #214

What do you mean by institution of Caliphate is a must in Islam.

What is the meaning of Caliph first. Does he need to be elected, or he need to enforce himself. Because when you say democracy and caliphate are diametrically opposed, I presume you think army rule in the name of Islam is Caliphate. Or did I misunderstood you.

Second if you think, that Caliphate means, a central authority for Muslims. It has never been after Khulfae-Rashid.

But was it present during Khulfa-e-Rashid.

If so then tell me who was the true Caliph, Hazrat Ali or Hazrat Amir Muawiya.

Thank you for your nice and encouraging comments

Chief Justice.... Hope to hear from you in future too...I was impressed by your accomplishments...

Pakistan Zindabad

Asif Naqshbandi

I donot suffer fools gladly!

Your analysis of the history and of the rational religion of Islam ..... is indeed messed up.

In any event I donot wish to defend Ataturk, everyone on this forum will view your post with scorn.

I am going to say one thing... if you read about Ataturk closely you will see that he himself wanted to enlist Islam as an influence for he believed that Islam was the most natural and rational of all religions... but then he probably ran into people like you who made him hate religion.

I leave you the choice ... you can go on claiming

that Islam and Democracy are incompatible... in the case of which we will have to do away with Islam completely (because people like you have corrupted it) or you can expound upon the rational true Islam and state Democracy and Islam go hand in hand ... saving both Islam and Pakistan.

If people like you dont change your views, and consider me fascist if you may, we will be forced to choose Democracy over the medieval philosophy that you choose to claim exclusively as Islam...

My Islam is not irrational....

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2000-daily/07-07-2000/oped/o3.htm

EXCELLENT ANALYSIS !!!!

America sees reason

Masud Akhtar Shaikh

Of late there have been strong indications to the effect that our friends, the Americans, are no longer as annoyed with Pakistan as they were when some mysterious power forced Mian Nawaz Sharif to show his guts as the heavily mandated Prime Minister of Pakistan and pull the trigger for a few big bangs in spite of the US President`s repeated use of carrots and sticks over the telephone to dissuade him from taking that momentous decision. That was about two years ago.

Despite his extreme displeasure as a result of the Pakistani nuclear detonations, Bill Clinton must have been highly impressed by the admirable courage displayed by the man who held the destiny of this nation in his hands at that time. Alas, that image was to be demolished pretty soon when, haunted by the ghost of Kargil and daunted by the snow-clad spirits of Atal Behari Vajpaee`s dead soldiers lying unburied atop that famous mountain peak, MNS was to dash to the very threshold of the White House with knocking knees and a perspiring forehead, ready to obey whatever orders the US President had drafted for him.

That was a great fall, not only for Humpty Dumpty but also for the whole country. The nation was humiliated beyond repair. America must have felt reassured that the Pakistani partridge was still in her bag, in spite of having become a de facto nuclear power. Nevertheless, the US government took a number of steps against Pakistan to teach that country a lesson so as to deter it from behaving as audaciously as it had done in May 1998.

Come October 12, 1999, and the armed forces of Pakistan emerged on the political horizon, showing an offensively wide red rag to the American bull. On the face of it, what infuriated the US government and her western allies was the sad demise of our so-called democracy, but in fact the real reason for their indignant chorus against Pakistan`s new rulers was the unanticipated manner in which the latter had swept their country`s political stage clear of MNS and his stooges, all loyal friends of the US. Clinton could no longer be sure of the new leadership`s loyalty to the American cause. The only way to ensure that the military regime comes to its senses without causing much damage to US interests was to gather the support of all the American allies and tighten the noose around the new Pakistani rulers` neck as much as possible.

With that intention, a number of steps were taken against Pakistan. One such step was the revival of US flirtation with India for a full bloomed honeymoon, promising to make that `biggest democracy in the world` a cornerstone in the American global policies. Our economic strangulation was another link in the American chain of actions against the defiant new regime. It was as a cumulative result of America`s anti-Pakistan diplomacy that a widespread impression was created among our people that our country stood totally isolated at the global level and that all our economic problems were due to the arbitrary removal of the American prop on which our economy had been leaning for decades.

Somehow, within less than a year down the line, American fury against Pakistan seems to be gradually subsiding. Of all the people, it was the rugged Madeleine Albright who provided the lead in this connection by saying a few kind words about Pakistan in spite of her usually snobbish attitude towards the under-developed countries of the Third World. That was not very long ago. She acknowledged the difficulties facing the military regime while appreciating the various steps it was taking for the restoration of democracy in the country.

The softening of attitude has been travelling down the line. The latest in the chain is the recent statement of the US ambassador to Pakistan, William B Milam, who has gone to the extent of dispelling the widely held impression that Pakistan had been totally isolated at the international level. He has gone a step farther by saying that Pakistan is an important country not only for the region but also for the United States. ``We realise that Pakistan is an important country and we cannot ignore it``, he is reported to have said. He also assured that Washington wanted to see Pakistan economically strong and stable.

What could be the reasons for this pleasantly surprising change in the tone of the American administration? Strangely enough, our foreign office has not yet claimed the entire credit for successfully pacifying a disturbingly antagonised Uncle in whose service we have been made to spend almost the whole of our independent life as a nation, trying to keep him in good humour all the time. Maybe they have been rather too busy trying to meet the deadline given by the chief executive for the overhaul of their ministry so as to make it more efficient than it has ever been before. But to be fair to the worthy foreign minister, some credit for this change in the US attitude must be given to his setup.

However, it would be more logical to try and look for an answer to this riddle somewhere else. For example, the reason for American re-appraisal of the importance of Pakistan, not only for this region but also for the global interests of the US itself, could be the probable miscarriage of the love affair between America and India. It would be natural for any Romeo to feel jealous if his Juliet started flirting with a third person. This is exactly what seems to have happened right at the start of the exciting romance between Clinton and Vajpayee. The villain in this case could be none other than the stubby but smart Putin.

The newly-inducted Russian President has been going about, quite proudly exhibiting a highly impressive shopping list worth billions of dollars. The list gives details of Russian tanks, aircraft, and other important military hardware which India has agreed to buy from Russia in the immediate future. What other evidence did Bill Clinton need to be convinced about the treacherous nature of his new-found love? Could he place any reliance on such an unfaithful ally and assign him the important role of containing a mighty China, an over-ambitious Russia, or a threatening block of Islamic states of Central Asia getting inspiration from the Taliban of Afghanistan? Certainly not.



Clinton`s distrust of India must have been further reinforced by the Pakistani print media which has been constantly warning America about the proverbial unreliable behaviour of Hindus, both as individuals and as a nation. In the meantime, some insider might have whispered into Clinton`s ears that the famous Urdu proverb ``Baghal mein chhury munh mein Ram Ram`` (professing godliness with a knife concealed in the sleeve) is a true reflection of the Hindu mind and that he better be careful while embracing his Indian friends! Clinton`s conscience must have pricked him for having unjustifiably caused distress to an old ally like Pakistan. Hence a directive to Albright et al to mind their words while talking about Pakistan.

SameerJB #217

Thanks for the info. Hopefully initiatives like Dr Ali and Mr Daudpota`s will find sufficient support.

Sadhana

Satish: I do not believe seriously in Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT) either. It would be unfair to respondents to start an unrelated, nevertheless very interesting, topic on this thread. I hope to discuss our ancient identities with you and others depending on the next opportunity provided by the chowk on the front page. Thanks for the reply.

Sadna: Intersting that you brought up Dr. Mubarak Ali. He has written several books in Urdu which are readily available in Pakistani bookstores. He has been very critical of the behavior of modern Islamist Pakistani educators, politicians and thinkers for completely disregarding non-Islamic parts of history, society and culture. I can understand him being outcasted from the mainstream print media. I recall reading something about Allama Iqbal in one of his book which goes something like,`` he was impressed and wrote about Corboba mosque but never wrote about the great Badshahi mosque in his backyard``. Basically Mubarak Ali`s point is that we should appreciative of desis contributions in the areas of art, cutlure and history, at least as much as the contributions of others. He detests the Indian/ Pakistani Muslims elite mindset whereby everything desi is considered inferior to Persian, Arab and Turkic achievements.

Jul-5-00 11:1:39 EST Reply #: 216 Rooster-blues#200

Hey man, now I know for sure your are on bananas.

Either you`ve got glaucoma and can`t read, or don`t understand English well [in which case all your bananas are going waste, since the chimps are pretty proficient in English now].

You oxymoron-sans-oxy, I asked you, ``How does...?`` not when? Why would you ``do`` your sisters? I have heard of ``doing`` lunch or something such, but never brothers doing their sisters. I guess that`s the cost one pays in lack of learning when one is an only son, as I am. What is a pimp? And why should ANYBODY be your mother`s pimp? Is Pimp something like a pipe (band)? No, I am afraid you left me way behind. I am no match to your learning and culture. You must be a descendent of a very upper, comfortable patriarch, and be something we call aaraam`zadeh.

Very truly yours,

yj

Writing Indo-Pak history on the net

http://www.hindustantimes.com/nonfram/060700/detFRO05.htm

Excerpt:

``...To bypass the systematic distortion of history on both sides of the border, three projects are being attempted by Dr Mubarak Ali and Mr Isa Daudpota, a physicist by training — publishing anthologies of the writings of Pakistani and Indian historians for the Ancient, Medieval and Modern periods; trying to write a history of the subcontinent with an Indian counterpart and a project for collectively writing a school text-book of the history of the subcontinent on the net. The last of these is the brainchild of Mr Isa Daudpota (email: daudpota@huic.edu.pk) a consultant with Hamdard University in Islamabad. ...``

BTW, one sentence in the complete article provokes a chuckle, now which one would that be:-)?.

Sadhana

Mr. YLH sahab,

Please stop reposting the same old argument again and again. And as for your assertion that I should separate politics from religion--well, sir, in ISLAM, there is no such dichotomy and I`m sorry to say that your reading of the early history of the caliphate is totally outrageous! The first four khalifahs--Allah have mercy on them-were the leaders of the Muslims both SPIRITUALLY and POLITICALLY as that was what an ideal khalifate represented: the political, wordly and spiritual head of the Muslims. For us the rule of the Khulafa e Rashida was perfect and a role model for us. Khalifat is a fard kafaaiya on the Muslims.That is not a small matter in Shar`iat. That is why the whole Muslim world reacted with horror when Ataturk abolished the institute of the Caliphate...

I hope you will be open minded enough to read the following article. It may open up your mind to other ideas.

http://www.murabitun.org/programme/khalifate/kha5.html

Basically, the khalifate is a sacred institution of Islam and the form of governance preferred by the shar`iah, nay, required. To compare it with democracy is totally false as the two are diametrically opposed...

Kabuliwallah #204

Thanks for the information. Its sad that we are forced to deconstruct even our daily lives and relationships we take for granted down to such microscopic levels, thats also a type of destruction, and I personally am fed up of it.

Being a Hindu is a real handicap around here, something I never felt even once while spending nights and days with even the most religiously-inclined `minorities` among my friends. There were friends who even tried to convert me, but they and their families didnot ever imply that I was anything less or more or even different than them in the essentials that mattered as friends and associates, as I myself never considered them to be. (Here I am deconstructing again what we take for granted :-)).

BTW, I join the chorus about your posts, which are very informative and balanced, thanks.

Sadhana

JB Sameer #207

I enjoy reading your posts and I appreciate your

efforts to lean on facts and not emotions. Right

now, I am extending my argument in my previous

post to reply to your statement ``….

re-approachment between India and Pakistan is

..difficult.``

I submit that:

(1) I agree that the task of re-approachment

between India and Pakistan can be catagorized

between difficult to impossible. But should we

undertake it? Certainly not . I believe that the

cost of doing so and the cost of resulting

complications is much higher than its

advantages.

(2) In my view, the best scenario will be when

both countries will severe relations with each

other but have an understanding not to interfere

in each others affairs. I do not, however, see

even this happening in near future.

You see, the World is becoming smaller and

smaller. Whether we like it or not, we all

countries are competing with each other for

material benefits and quality of life. Therefore

no country can afford to waste resources. The

exercise of re-approachment is such an exercise

where the cost is immense in terms of time ,

efforts, and resources and the output, at best,

is uncertain.

On the other hand, if we divert the same amount

of resources to educating our masses with

necessary skills , it will help us

economically and give us ability to understand

the cost which we are paying by not being friends

with each other.

We should deal and compete with the world; not

with each other. We have to give time to cool off

our passions to hate and our obsession to show

each other that we belong to a superior lot. This

mentality is in-built in South Asia. We all

know that in reality, we both are doing much

poorly and we ha

Krashid #211

I can not help but comment on `` … Indian Muslims

have better opportunities in Pakistan..``. That

being the case, there should have been big lineups

of Indian refugees waiting to enter Pakistan and

its consulates!

Right now, Indian Muslims are spilling their blood

and sweat in order to fight Pakistan. Kargil is a

such a place where Indians of all religion have

faced the bullets and embraced death because

they believed in India. The richest Indian is a

Muslim and architect of India`s atomic program

is a proud Muslim. If you need any further

clarification, talk to ``Altaf`` of MQM fame.

Thanks but do not be overly concerned with India`s

dis-integration. There are one billion people who

are pouring their hearts and wallets to safeguard

India against that. Do whatever you want to do,

but leave India out of your sympathy. There are

enough people to take care of that and we do not

need friends like you. I think you should be more

conce

Re :Sameer

Let me begin by saying that I like your posts, the obvious thought that goes into each of them. But I have a nit to pick -

You wrote `` There are those who consider themselves nobles (Aryans) from somewhere between Ukraine and Mongolia, and hope to revive the glory times of their hegemonic control over masses.``

Excuse me, but that is not at all true. You see, there are two school of thought in India. The official establishment, fast losing ground now, which believes in the now almost thoroughly discredited `Aryan Invasion Theory (AIT)`. It is this school of thought, sometimes called the 3M alliance (Macaulayintes-Missionaries-Marxists) which believes that Aryans were a separate race, who came to India at about 1500BC. Then they got signs of Indus Valley civilization and tried to explain it as an earlier civilization which invading Aryans destroyed. But it doesnot jell... there are too many loose ends. Moreover, this theory has never been used in India by `Aryan supremacists` since the people who could do that never believed in this theory. It has been always used by people who like to think themselves as `anti-Aryans` in some way or other, such as dalit activists, many varieties of separatists..

On the other side are the AIT-opposers, most, but not all, of them in broad sympathy with the so called `hindu nationalism`, in other words, your suspected proponents of aryan supremacy. But they believe, with scientific backup, that India was the original home of Indian. Aryans were not a race, but as you wrote, the word Arya means `noble` in Sanskrit. It was the time when the AIT originated, late 19th century, that drove the indologists of that time (Max Mueller, Wheeler etc.) to put forward this theory without an iota of proof. And then plenty of proof arose, but colonial masters could never accept that they were wrong, could they? I could discuss all this in detail, but this forum maynot be a suitable place for that. If you`d like to know more about this debate, please write books by Foueurstein et al, or the articles on this topic by Koenraad Elst.

ylh #81

I was just passing through. Saw your letter.

Hamdani, Berkhurdarm, never worry about these ignorant [one track-ed; blind to history, Indians].

Never apologize for the Pakistani education either.

I went to the Corporation High School, Mozang, in Lahore. Then to Government College, Lahore and the Punjab University.

I have, in the West, represented the UNESCO Commission of an important country for three years. Made 13 recommendations out of which 9 have been adopted by the UNESCO; been Director of many South Asian Programs, and Associations` Boards, taught Indians their Socio-cultural history and demographic analyses of India. Edited books on Indian society in which the nominated Indian editors were not able to help.[Although they were always, ``avil-able``!]

I am still on the Research Board for Adjudication of Research Proposals for and about India [big time money; rarely for less than half a million dollars] on India MOSTLY BY INDIANS! I also adjudicate many proposals on an about India and Indians seeking research funds from the Western Governments` Research Councils. [All this because I am recognized as an ``expert`` on Indo-Pak society and recent history.] I am also, asked for interviews on the television and radio when something newsworthy in the sub-continent happens.

Last month my name, alongwith some others whose research efforts were recognized, was included in a Bronze plaque, suitably installed at a location where everybody visiting a prestigious institution will see it for as long as that plaque lasts.

All this from education at the Corporation High School. So what`s wrong with the near-Khairati school education in Pakistan?

I must, now that I am on this topic, indicate that a few years ago (1995), I saw in a book on Social Studies being used at the Aitchison College, Lahore, that it said that the [All India] Congress was not honest in its objectives in the 1930s and 1940s [something ALL OF US know as an historical fact] but I did not like that young people should be taught that without //evidence// such things be accepted as facts. It sounded as an unfair mention of the A.I. Congress. So, I wrote to the Director of Punjab Text Book Board, Professor A. Kabir Hashmi, who promised that such mention of the A.I. Congress shall be corrected. I doubt that in the whole of Pakistan I was the only person protesting [even such mild] ``uncivilities``. I think our education is all right, although as anywhere else, and perhaps more so in our countrieS, it always has room for improvement.

So, Barkhurdarm Hamdani, please do not apologize for the Pakistani education so far as teaching and imparting of KNOWLEDGE OF, AND ABOUT, INDIA IS CONCERNED. Physics, mathematics, chemistry etc., is another matter.

And, finally, I used my personal example above since ``autobiography`` comes easily to mind. I have seen examples of persons universes above me in such matters from both Pakistan AND India. I feel the argument, now, is devoid of all merit, is vacuous, and should be given up by your tormentors.

Take an oath not to respond to such arguments and ``points`` in future. That is a better answer than writing.

One or two final, age-derived, bits of wisdom: Never be modest. It is an overly valued trait. As John K. Galbraith, on a poster in his office says, ``Modesty is not one of my weaknesses``. After all, it stands to reaso, does it not, that if YOU do not blow your own horn, why would any body else?

Always retain your sense of humour. Make silly moves; keep the child in you alive. Look at me, I am on the Chowk!

Pardesi #182

Very soul searching.

I don`t know about Indian Muslims. In 1947 purpose of Pakistan was partially achieved. To find a better opportunity for Muslims of India.

Also, not only Punjabi Muslims, but Muslims from other parts of India, including UP, Dehli, Bihar, Hyderabad, Gujrat, Kashmir etc are immensely successful in Pakistan.

Almost all the rulers, including Pervez Musharraf, Nawaz Sharif, Benazir, Zia-ul-Haq, Z A Bhutto etc are first or second generation of those migrants. Prior to democracy, they were almost totally dominant in all fields.

I don`t know about democracy or secularism in India, but this is probably a small period, when BJP and other right are oblivious of the minority aspirations.

The rift within the ruling class will once again give the minorities their voice.

Otherwise, nobody can prevent disintegeration of India.

Mohajir #198

I have asked many people who have been revived from death. Meaning CPR. All they remember is that what happened before, and what happened after. I specifically asked them about tunnel and light thing. But they had no experience.

May be the book you read has selling value only, as is any fiction.

As far as saying Allah OM. I don`t get your point.

Even five people in a household are different with different philosophies, but they live together in harmony.

If you mean by Allah OM, that everybody should shirk away their thoughts for yours, you are on wrong foot.

If you mean by this that different religion can live in harmony and peace, that has happened in most of Muslim rule in Hindustan.

Sameer JB# 207

You have to differentiate between hegemony and competition.

As long as Indian army is kept at bay and terms are on equal basis, there is a chance as you are describing.

Otherwise who is going to stop Indian products to be forced into the throat of Pakistanis. (As they did to their own countrymen).

If we have to accept a hegemon why should be opt for a third rate country with a fourth rate economy.

Sameer ji, thanks for exploring the roots of the word Chugatay. I had some idea that it is associated with the old times of mughal supermacy as in my part of Punjab we usually refer to old/out of fashion or out of use things as ``chuagateya de veile di``. e.g....if you want to ridicule someone`s old fashioned dress you will say``oye aah kurta kithoN kaD liyanda tu, chugateyaN de veile da?``

Dear Kabuliwalla: I understand yours as well as Pardesi`s point that rapproachement under current circumstances is difficult. This point has been made by several other respondents; politely and in decent manner by some and arrogantly by others.

It is important to understand that rapproachement is a broad and wide spectrum. It may mean different for different people. Almost all of us agree that it is not possible to have a political union at this stage but that is the extreme end of rapproachement. Before we even start thinking about it seriously, there are hundreds or thousands of things which can be done for mutual benefit of the people of sub-continent. A people to people contact, as it happened in the cases of Indian school children visiting Pakistan and a delegation of Pakistani ladies visiting India, is absolutely essential for a good starting point. This is the other end of rapproachement.

A common fear among Pakistanis is the perception of rapproachement leading to Indian hegemony. Again, hegemony has a broad and wide ranging spectra. We all accept the hegemony of our parents and elders which is even coercive at times. We accept the hegemony, both coercive and non-coercive, of corporate bosses because we want salaries as well as promotions. Most Pakistanis have accepted the hegemony of Indian movies and hindi music without coercion. Similarly most Indians have accepted the hegemony of Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan in the Qawwali market and Ghulam Ali/ Mehdi Hasan in the ghazal singing. All relationships have to be mutually beneficial to work. For example, Maruti car can only be hegemonic through serious coercion in the Pakistani Market because it does not match up to existing Suzukis, Hondaa and Toyotas. Similarly pickles from Vijaywara will not compete well against Ahmad`s and Mitchell`s from Pakistan. Also Pakistani agarbattis will dominate the Indian Market. These are few funny examples. More importantly, Pakistan can buy surplus Indian wheat and tea without paying heavy price for shipping and insurance whereas India can buy sugar and power from Pakistan. Both countries can fight together against the patenting of Basmati rice in the USA. Both countries export cotton and should work together to lock up this market against Uzbek cotton. It would be even better if they prefer to sell it as value added thread or cloths. I bet many rich Sindhis would love to invest in Pakistani Sindh and help raise their standard of living. The benefits of cooperation are tremendous. No coercion needed. What is Pakistan to fear about when they know too well that they have got a rough parity in defending their countries (nuclear). I believe Pakistan has come long way in the last 53 years and they should be confident in cooperative dealing with India.

However, if we kept behaving the way some of us do here on chowk, even resolving the Kashmir issue will do nothing to improve the relationships. We need to corner those people who think of nuking each other or reviving the long past Muslim empires of India; these handful of extremists are dooming the future of millions. At least in Pakistan, these people have contributed nothing; no taxes, no education and no harmony. Most of them actually opposed the creation of Pakistan and now they want to use it as a springboard to reestablish the totaliterian control once enjoyed by their ancestors.

There is a term for them in Punjabi. It is called ``chughtey``. The root of this word is chughtai (Mughals considered themselves Chughtai turks). It is modified in Urdu as ``chughad``, usually used for dumm and stupid. In Punjabi it used to be referred to those people who kept considering themselves nobles, based on Central Asian ancestory, even after their glory days were long over. They looked down upon non-nobles and expected them to sacrifice whatever they can, so that they can reestablish their lost status. Same is true in India. There are those who consider themselves nobles (Aryans) from somewhere between Ukraine and Mongolia, and hope to revive the glory times of their hegemonic control over masses.

Both groups are mistaken. India is not ready to give in to nobles of Aryan or Italian kind and Pakistanis are not interested to be infested by the locust of Central Asian kind. Time and again, in every election in Pakistan, these people were thoroughy routed and come next time--it will produce the same outcome. Pakistanis are not going to be fooled by Alap-tageen, Subak-tageen, Aaq-Qatkhan, Qalpach Khan, Avimaq Chooghta and Tughrals. These are Muslim names and Jai Singh, Hardayal and Ashok are unislamic?

vande matram #194

``What India needs to worry is not to get nuked by Pakis and nuke Pakistan before they do, otherwise vast number of Indians will perish.``

I disagree with you wholeheartedly. I believe Clinton should nuke the whole subcontinent and put an end to it`s misery. The innocent will have a ball in heaven, while the corrupt will have dinner with the devil.

In either case, justice will be served.

First of all Mr Naqshbandi ... It will help if you seperated your religious views from the argument ... whereas let me assure you that I prescribe to all the beliefs of Islam that you seemmto believe in ... afterlife etc ... I dont feel that it is necessary for Muslims to involve religion into politics which inevitably leads to

its exploitation ....having said that I fully prescribed to the concept of religion being a major factor in ethnicity ...and hence I believe that the Pakistan Movement was a south asian Muslim nationalist movement.... and not a movement for Islam ... Muslim unity as a great mobilizer cannot be denied ....however this unity is a thin fabric which is destroyed as soon as

somebody like you imposes his own version of Islam ... on others ... it is also important to note that I believe that Islam is the most rational and Modern of all religions and hence is totally compatible with Modern secular democratic institutions .....and Jinnah seemed to believe this too .....

Whereas you can rightfuly accuse Ataturk of going to far on the path of secularism ... you cannot accuse him of being a traitor to the Muslims and Turkey ... his struggle the Turkish War of independence was one of the greatest victories of Islamic World achieved against the Greeks and british .... the Turk Nationalism that he espoused atleast was based on the definition of ethnicity according to Religion ... hence the treaty between Greece and Turkey on 30th January 1923 .... you can accuse him of turning against the religion per say but you cannot accuse him of being against the interests of Muslims ....He was during that time widely hailed as a great hero amongst Indian Muslims .... infact there had been appeals from the likes of you to become the Khalifah ...

So let me come to the August institution of Khilafah that you seem to cherish .... let me remind you of a few basic things ...

a) Khilafa is temporal power and not spiritual ..

b) Abu Bakr was the Khalifa tul rasool ALLAH ... BY THE TOKEN uMER SHOULD HAVE BEEN kHALIFAH TUL KHALIFAH TUL RASool allah ... and Usman should have been Khalifah tul Khalifah tul Khalifah tul rasool allah ... Ali khalifah tul Khalifah tul Khalifah tulKhalifah tul rasool Allah ....

but the earlier sahaba used the title ameer ul Momineen ... the Lord of the faithful ... .and not Khalifah ....

In any event the original Khilafah was democratic inessence ... once the Khilafah became monarchial .... it was not the true Khilafah any more ... not to mention that the word Khilafah is wrong in essence and there is no historic or religious justification for having kept it ...

The morals of the Ottomans were questionable ... so they can hardly be described as holy or sacred .....

Usmani Khilafah that you have taken a liking to was near its end ... turkey was destroyed and near ruin .... Ataturk saved Turkey ....

and just to respond to your allegation that he was a british agent ... the British actually supported the ottoman regime and tried to arrest and stop Ataturk`s nationalist followers many time ... Maybe you forget that the Khalifah was a prisoner of the British in Istanbul ....

Till the eventual military victory of Ataturk against the greeks in the battle of Dalmunpur ...

the British refused to even acknowledge his government let alone support him ....

to suggest that he was a british agent is as absurd of an attempt as Indians who try to claim the same for Jinnah and the Pakistan movement ..

However he did go a step too far in his cultural reform ... Ataturk`s blunder is perhaps best described Imran Khan in his book All round view ...

``Ataturk, the great Turk Nationalist made one big blunder ... he thought that by aping the western civilization he could progress.... overnight Turkey shunned its magnificent culture ``

Nobody doubts however that ATATURK WAS Turkey`s saviour ... the Khhilafah had to go ... its an old ancient institution ... which can only help to obscure the future of Muslims even more....

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

re: tahmed321# 191

You are right, what was done was not enough. I should have added the phrase `if its any consolation`.

re: vande mataram # 194

I am sorry you feel that way. There is another person , who goes by the username Sarwari, on another board who says, ``Indians being tolerant, is a label that is on the wrong product.`` So you see, the feeling is mutual on both sides. It is unfortunate. This suspicion and lack of trust arises due to ignorance and lack of understanding. This can be eradicated through knowledge and education. I am not saying that you are uneducated. I am saying that the general mahaul in India and Pakistan is such that each people thinks of the other in rather inhuman and barbaric terms. The inhumane and the barbaric are in small numbers on both sides and a minority. But ignorance leads us to believe that it is the same all over.

However I agree with you that this reapproachment business is impractical and I believe will only lead to more hurt. However, there should be other things that we have to be more concerned about, like strengthening our country through literacy, providing decent livelihood to all people and elimination of bigotry and injustice. I have always advocated peaceful relations between India and Pakistan to achieve the above mentioned. But I have also said to leave it at just that, peace. No soft border or anything of that sort. India and Pakistan due to history, will always have conflict of interests and things like soft borders and too close people-to-people contacts will complicate matters. Let me give you an example. I forsee a long and difficult struggle for India against China in the future for markets, control of shipping routes etc. In such a struggle we cannot expect Pakistan to support India, as it is an `all-weather friend` of China. This is only one example of a conflict of interests. I am not advocating hatred for Pakistan, I`m only arguing for co-existence and India`s strategic interests.

To end this, I`d like to repeat that education is a prerequisite to remove the cobwebs from peoples` minds and to impart education we need peace and progress. Peace, yes, but lets be happy with that.

re: Sadna

My mother tells me that in Hyderabad, many of the people selling the camphor, coconuts, flowers and other temple paraphernalia are Muslims. Just thought I`d let you know that :)

regards,

Kabuli

This article was interesting if a little too utopian in its views. And I don`t agree that we should unite --not in the foreseeable future at least and probably not ever. Pakistan happened. Whether you agree with it or not. And we are proud of it and we must make it as prosperous as we can, insha Allah.

As far as hating India goes..I do not hate India one little bit. (does that make me any less of a patriotic Pakistani? No!)I have in fact quite a lot of affection for India. How can I hate a land which has 140 million Muslims?! A land which my ancestors ruled? It was the Muslim dynasties which made India the envy of the world for its wealth!(What I DO hate is the treatment of the Kashmiri brethren and the RSS/BJP waalahs.)...

Insha Allah one day India *will * be united--under the banner of the Islamic Caliphate when Hazrat Imam Mahdi alahi salaam comes near the end of time to unite the world under the banner of La ilaaha il Allah :-)

Meanwhile, can`t we try to live together in peace and get on with improving the lot of the unfortunate millions who live there? How about starting by giving everyone access to fresh, clean, water....

* * * * * * * * * * * * *

Finally YLH I was deeply offended by this comment of yours,

``Because I revere Jinnah like I revere the Prophet ...``

Astaghfirullah! How can you even make this statement and claim to be a Muslim! I respect the Qauid very much (as the founder of Pakistan)--but this is ridiculous! He was just a human being with all the faults of humans. Sarkar e Do Aalam are perfect and infallible and this is the aqeedah of the Muslims. The very dust on which Our Master sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam walked is more precious than the lives of a million Quaid-e-Azams! The dogs of Madina are more precious! How dare you compare the two!

Kithay Mihr Ali, kithay teri sanaa

GustaakH akhieeN kithay jaa aRiyaaN!

That comment of yours has made me really angry! Talk fo idol worship---aren`t you in danger of turning the Qauid into an idol?!

I think he should be able to be criticised more openly in Pakistan instead of holding him up like a lofty perfect being like we do...(in Turkey btw it is an offense to criticise that traitor Ataturk)

vande matram should actually read `wande mataram`

sub-continental languages do not have the `f` tone that defines the english `v`.

matram of course is just wrong and should be mataram.

your spelling abilities and your youthful rabidity are familiar; are you from rutgers?

regards

aakar patel

But I agree with your premise that Pakistanis and Indians dont want reunification ....

I am the first one to oppose it as is Mr Kabuli Wallah ...

Doesnt mean that we cant be friends ...

Let me tell you something Vandemataram .....

I am really sorry to hear from you!

Chowk is not for you!

A-L-L-A-H-O-M: A Message from Above

Sabah Aafreen



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When my father died in November, `97, I was shocked and wounded. During the grieving process, I became very interested in death and dying. My quest for the meaning of life was renewed. During this time I ran across a book titled, ``Saved by the Light`` by Dannion Brinkley with Paul Perry. It`s a true story of a man who died twice and the profound revelations he received.

The first time, Dannion Brinkley was struck by lightening. He was pronounced dead and revived twenty-eight minutes later in a morgue. He gave a profoundly moving account of what happened to him during his near-death experience. I was fascinated by his story. When he died, he experienced leaving his body and floating around on the ceiling, hearing everything that was being said. Soon, he found himself spiraling up through a tunnel of light and meeting a Being of Light at the end. This Being of Light helped him review his life starting from the day he was born until he died. He experienced in life, this time from the perspective of those he touched.

I read the book twice, learning deeper, more profound messages in it the second time around. Yet, I had missed a very special message. Two years later, I was skimming through the book when I ran across it. It hit me like a lightening bolt.

It`s a message from above that I`m sure would be meaningful to Sulekha readers.

So, the second time he died, he says, ``I saw blackness but heard voices… `He has an infection, he`s weak, his heart was damaged by lightning, he isn`t in very good physical shape`. I rolled over out of the blackness to face the stark brightness of the operating room… I looked down on myself from a place that seemed to be well above the ceiling… A nurse painted me with a brown antiseptic and then draped me with a clean sheet… I could hear chimes ringing, three sets of three with a tone at the end of each of them. In the darkness a tunnel opened… At the end of the tunnel I was met by the Being of Light, the same one that greeted me the first time… I began to see my life all over again.``

He saw his life go by and experienced the emotions of everyone he touched. ``After the life review was over, the Being of Light gave me the opportunity to forgive everyone who had ever crossed me… I didn`t want to forgive many of these people because I felt that the things they had done to me were unforgivable… But the Being of Light told me I had to forgive them… Forgiveness flooded my heart along with a strong sense of humility.``

Afterwards, ``the Being of Light was vibrating. As we moved upward, that vibration increased, and the sound emanating from the Being became louder and higher-pitched… we flew toward a range of majestic mountains, where we dipped down and landed on a plateau. On this plateau there was a massive building that looked like a green house…Inside were four rows flowers, long-stemmed beauties with cup-shaped petals the consistence of silk… I became aware of the fragrance of the flowers. As I breathed in the scent, I heard a chant resonating throughout the building. A-L-L-A-H-O-M went the chant, A-L-L-A-H-O-M... A-L-L-A-H-O-M went the chant, and I became more and more absorbed in the surroundings.``

The first time I saw this word, I thought maybe it was some kind of Jewish word. When I was skimming through the book last year, I realized that it`s actually two words: Allah Om!

Dannion Brinkley went to a very high spiritual place after forgiving the unforgivable. That`s where he encountered the spirits that were our ancestors. The spirits that were chanting `Allah Om` were very forgiving, highly evolved beings. Have you ever heard of anyone chanting `Allah Om` here on earth? If so, introduce me to them. It would be an honor to meet them. You have to be highly evolved to chant `Allah Om`.

Let`s admit it; we as South Asians have committed unforgivable crimes against each other in the name of religion. During the partition we slaughtered each other in a fit of rage. The British didn`t exactly help by adding fuel to the fire and by quitting India in such a hurry. But it`s easier to put the blame on the British than it is to face the demon within ourselves. I say, let`s face it. Let`s start by chanting.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

I have found my chant.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

As a Muslim girl in India, my grandmother taught me how to read the Quran and pray at a very early age. I learned to read Urdu and Arabic at home. At the same time, in school I was learning Hindi and my sister was learning Telugu. Through movies and books, we learned about Hinduism. My family didn`t teach us so much to hate the other religion as much as to learn our own very well.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

When we came to America, everyone assumed we were Hindu when we said we were Indian. ``Why do you wear that dot on your forehead?`` I was asked. ``I don`t,`` was my reply. Actually, now I do. And I know why. It`s my third eye. As a woman, I especially adore the images of goddesses in the ancient Indian myths and traditions.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

There must be other South Asians who are willing to chant with me. Even if there is a handful of us, we can prevent India and Pakistan from erasing themselves off the map.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

I know I`m not alone. Certainly, the spirits of those of our ancestors that died in the holocaust of 1947 and forgave the unforgivable are with me. Tell me you are too.

Almost 200 responses!! Not very surprising . Just a pointless and ego driven discussion and counter discussion , sound familiar ? yep much like Pakistan-India conflict which has less substance and more BS , we got masses striving economically suffering from religo-ego-racial dilemma. The problems are bundled up and thrown on the so called Leaders to sort em out, well you are part of the problem too! We will be better off if we worry/discuss our own problems rather than getting in to tit for tat tournament. AC/DC summed up the whole problem in simple take ( yes . I don’t wanna quote Jinnah/Ghandi/Attaturk/Rumi etc. there persona are far fetched and out of this world)

I`m [ever | rather] upper class high societyGod`s gift to ballroom notoriety

I always fill my ballroom

The event is never small

The social pages say I`ve got

The biggest balls of all

I`ve got big ballsI`ve got big balls

And they`re such big balls

Dirty big ballsAnd he`s got big balls

And she`s got big balls

But we`ve got the biggest balls of them all

And my balls are always bouncing

My ballroom always full

f your name is on the guest list

No one can take you higher

Everybody says

I`ve got

Great balls of fire

Some balls are held for charity

And some for fancy dress

But when they`re held for pleasure

They`re the balls that I like best

My balls are always bouncing

To the left and to the rightIt`s my belief that my big balls

Should be held every night

And I`m just itching to tell you about them

Oh we had such wonderful fun

Seafood cocktail, crabs, crayfish...

Chill out!!!!!!!!!!

some excellent stuff from sameer and pardesi...has anyone noticed that this issue has attracted more mail than any other current posting on chowk?....i think the current boundaries of india and pakistan are unlikely to change in the near future....what can (and should) change is the hardness of this border...eventually we should be like most west european countries....where you can just get out of bed and hop on a train to go across the almost irrelevant border.....this sounds overly optimistic at this time...but if we have ten years of peace and economic development, its bound to happen.....of course, we may not have ten years like that and mad mullahs and their mirror image hindu fanatics could take north india to ruin....one hopes south india will still survive ...with nuclear bombs one cannot be too sure....here meanwhile is a piece from the latimes today...

South Asian Entrepreneurs and Mentors Form a Tie That Binds

Start-ups: High-tech business leaders from India region have united to help ambitious immigrants succeed in the U.S.

By DAVID KESMODEL, Times Staff Writer

Safi Qureshey is helping mentor South Asian high-tech entrepreneurs.

RICHARD HARTOG / Los Angeles Times



When Sandeep Walia and his partners presented their sweeping plan for an Internet start-up to investor Navneet Chugh last year, Chugh was underwhelmed, to put it kindly.

``Navneet said, `Shut up, guys. You can`t do all that,` `` said the 26-year-old Walia, an electronics engineer whose idea for a worldwide e-tailer of ethnic handicrafts occurred to him at a party.

A swift wake-up call was not all that the fledgling company, BuyBuzz Inc., received from Chugh, a member of a closely knit group of established businesspeople from India and neighboring countries called the IndUS Entrepreneurs, or TiE. Seeing potential in the team, the Cerritos attorney and CPA helped streamline its concept to match its strengths. He also injected seed capital in the business, provided free legal and accounting services, and enticed Walia to locate in Cerritos--instead of Silicon Valley--with free space in his law offices. What`s more, he has handed off BuyBuzz`s business plan to other investors.

After revamping his original idea, India-born Walia instead developed a software application that will enable e-tailers and auction sites to syndicate their offerings. BuyBuzz is now poised to launch its product in August.

Chugh`s blend of critical advice and robust support is emblematic of the mentoring acts of TiE, a group whose influence on the high-tech sector has extended from Mountain View to Mumbai, India, leaving its largest imprint on Silicon Valley.

The buzz surrounding TiE`s 440-member Southern California chapter, of which Chugh is a founding member, has grown rapidly since launching in 1997--organizers had to turn away 100 people from its annual conference in October. Yet investments haven`t followed at the same torrid pace, keeping the chapter in the shadows of its Northern California cousins, who spawned the likes of Exodus Communications Inc., Hotmail Corp. and Junglee Corp.

But there are signs the tide is turning. The number of new companies that TiE Southern California members have cultivated has risen in the last year. Today, about two dozen start-ups here are led or backed by TiE members.

``What we need in Southern California is one or two success stories,`` said Chugh, who stresses that the chapter is still in its gestation period. ``Once that happens, it will be a great morale booster.``

Safi Qureshey, the president of TiE Southern California and its most noteworthy ambassador, is the principal figure behind the recent surge in investments. A Pakistani, Qureshey achieved prominence in the 1980s as co-founder and chief executive of Irvine-based personal computer maker AST Research Inc.

Qureshey has invested about $7 million in a dozen Southern California start-ups. He recently launched a $50-million business incubator, IrvineVentures, which works closely with UC Irvine and other local research institutions to hatch new companies.

He also helps entrepreneurs in another way by bringing prominent speakers to TiE Southern California`s monthly meetings through his many connections in the high-tech community. More than 200,000 people from the Indian subcontinent are estimated to live in Southern California.

About 200 people typically attend the events, held at the Sheraton Cerritos. Over dinner and cocktails, they listen to experts such as Mohan Sawhney, a top e-commerce authority who teaches at Northwestern`s Kellogg Graduate School of Management.

Yet speeches are only part of the draw. Before and after, members engage in a flurry of networking. Budding entrepreneurs can rub elbows with angel investors and get advice from seasoned executives. Members of the group liken the personal exchanges to the Indian tradition of passing wisdom from a guru, or teacher, to the chela, or student.

``One of the key things we`ve learned in entrepreneurship is that there`s nothing that encourages individuals more than getting to meet someone who has [become successful], and say, `If he did it, I can do it,` `` Qureshey said.

Added Chugh: ``What makes me come back year after year is pure business learning--the stuff they don`t teach you at Harvard Business School.``

The organization was founded at a 1992 luncheon in Silicon Valley by South Asian high-tech executives who had bumped up against various barriers during their rise to the top. With TiE, their goal is to help smooth the process for the new waves of ambitious immigrants. While the majority of TiE`s members are from the Indus region (India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka), there are non-Asian members. Chapters exist in 10 U.S. cities and five in India.

It`s no secret that South Asians were a significant force in the U.S. technology sector long before the Internet boom and the emergence of TiE. For example, in the 1970s,Indian engineers became fixtures in the offices of IBM and Xerox. But they usually hit a ceiling blocking ascent into management.

Successful entrepreneurs such as Vinod Khosla, who co-founded Sun Microsystems Inc. in 1982, helped blaze a new trail. And the Internet boom, which offered a more level playing field for South Asians to strike out on their own, became a fast ticket to wealth.

``The dramatic shift we`ve seen is not so much a shift in cultural attitude but because the environment exists where a phenomenal idea can get funded,`` said Ahmed Ghouri, a 33-year-old anesthesiologist who co-founded San Diego-based CarPrices.com, a so-called reverse auction Web site chaired by Qureshey.

Another of Qureshey`s South Asian-founded start-ups, Irvine-based ConnectCom Microsystems, expects to close a round of venture capital funding of $15 million by September. ConnectCom is a semiconductor design firm that is developing high-speed silicon germanium optical transceivers for transmitting Internet data.

Gardena-based EntComm Inc., meanwhile, is believed to be the first organic TiE enterprise--all three founders met at a group function. Launched in September by Sundaresh Ramayya, Brij Mathur and Gopalakrishnan Satish, the business-to-business exchange integrates the supply chains of companies with their trading partners`. Clients include ConAgra and Universal Studios.

TiE also helps start-ups find technically skilled workers, a perpetual headache for technology firms, says 1StopMD Inc.`s founder, Venkat Yepuri. His Arcadia company, which enables physicians to buy medical and office products from a single source on the Web, has hired key technical consultants thanks to TiE connections.

The labor factor is one reason TiE`s Raghu Mendu is raising $125 million for a venture capital firm, Ventureast Capital, that will be based in both Los Angeles and Chennai, formerly known as Madras. The firm wants to help U.S. companies leverage the pool of highly skilled labor in India and help India-based companies take advantage of technology being developed in the U.S.

TiE`s local chapter is expanding its reach in other ways: It recently started holding angel forums in which start-ups can pitch their ideas to potential seed investors, and it is launching a chapter affiliate in San Diego.

Still, the process of brewing more South Asian-run technology companies in Southern California--and guiding them toward initial public stock offerings--will take more time to gather momentum, said Ravin Agrawal, a partner at EastWest Venture Group, a Los Angeles venture capital firm.

To help stoke the fire for more start-ups, Agrawal recently began holding gatherings of about 40 people every six weeks at the Westwood Brewing Co. The group, informally called the South Asian Venture Alliance, meets for networking purposes and to discuss ideas for new ventures. It works independently of TiE.

But whether young South Asian entrepreneurs turn to established networking groups to jump-start their ventures, the interaction with older, successful business owners is what matters most.

``These people give you the sense that anything is possible,`` said Vikas Bhushan, 33, founder of Santa Monica-based Medschool.com. ``If you achieve one-tenth of where they set their sights, then you could be very successful and proud.``

Without the guidance of TiE mentors, who have helped steer his company through several metamorphoses, BuyBuzz`s Walia said he doesn`t know where his company would be.

``A large portion of this is not making the bread but deciding what kind of bread you`re going to make,`` he said

SameerJB #189 Your point concerning the fuzziness of the Hindu-Muslim distinction is informed, well-reasoned, and therefore well-taken. In my mind, the real distinction is between constructive and destructive people. Both India and Pakistan have their fair share of both. It is for the constructive people to work together to try and bring peace and prosperity in these countries.

Pardesi #186 I agree that we - the people of Pakistan and India - must hold our leaders accountable. Actually, this is already happening: in India, the democratic tradition seems by now to have taken firm root. In Pakistan, we have some ways to go, but leaders - including the current government - are beginning to realize that it is no longer possible to ignore public opinion in Pakistan. And the ordinary Pakistani knows what is right and what is wrong as well as the ordinary Indian or anyone else. It is no coincidence that, as has been commonly noted, war has never taken place between two democracies.

Kabuliwalah: In your response you mention curbing of RSS activities as a sort of government response to punish the 1947 killings. I dont think this is enough: what governments on both sides should have done is identify the perpetrators and take them before court like ordinary criminals. Gandhi is the only independence era South Asian leader who, as far as I know, attempted to stop the 1947 killings and for that alone he deserves great respect from all individuals.

Thanks SameerJB for your comments ....

but may I clarify something ... both Kabuliwallah and I have turned 20 ... we are no longer teenagers :)

Yasser

Tahmad321 and Sadna: Kabuliwalla and Sadna have already pointed out few of the overlapping traditions and complementary relationship between various religious communities. This is precisely what I meant by fuzzy boundaries in my last post. True, there were always elements at the core of each communities who wanted absolute seperation as far back as Tughlaq and Khilji dynasties. They were fundamentalist mullahs supported by elites of a certain ilk who wanted to brand all non-Muslims Kafirs and kill them but they were few and far between. Most ordinary folks identified themselves Muslims or non-Muslims only in the matter of religion. In political terms, they followed their interests whereas in social and cultural terms, religion did not matter much. Not only the Advaita Vedanta of Shankara dating back to 8th century was complementary to the teachings of great Sufis, it was influencing the new breed of Sufis all over India. Besides only few people have the luxury and means to learn religions in detail and for the sole motive of distinguishing one’s religion from another. Most people then as to this day, have more to worry about day to day living. It would have had negative consequences for any group to become mutually exclusive within a community (more so in rural than urban communities).

Do anybody wander why there were lot fewer untouchables and shudras in Punjab compared to eastern UP and Bihar, even before the arrival of Muslims? They were not all kicked out. It is because the castes could be easily changed based on economic status. Hindus and Sikhs freely intermarried and to some extent still do. My own family 6 generations ago converted from sunni to shia under the influence of a local pir. My grandfather converted back to sunni and my father converted to Ahle-Hadith (wahabi) and I am still not sure what to follow. But all these intra-religious conversions never effected the intra-family relationships because all these boundaries were fuzzy. Ask those who are being gun down in the mosques for being sunni or shia. It is all political and recent.

Do names Heer and Ranjha sound typical Muslim? How come Ranjha became a Hindu Jogi so easily after failing to win Heer? Why Waris Shah did not include any resentment on part of Muslims for Ranjha’s religiously-forbidden act? How come a just and fair Hindu Raja delivered justice to Ranjha? Why did a love story of two Muslims written by a Sufi became most popular with Sikhs? It has to do with fuzzy boundaries between different religious communities.

All communities fought shoulder to shoulder against the invasions of Abdali. Didn’t Muslims know that he was a Muslim? It is because their common interests outweighed the religious interests.

How come a Muslim, Qadir Baksh wrote poetry in the form of “var” for a Hindu, Hari Singh Nalwa, a general in the army of Sikh Ranjit Singh and extremely popular with Sikhs? Sikhs could have discarded it because it was written by a Muslim for a Hindu.

The Hindu and Muslim migration before the last 150 years have produced absolutely different relationship among Hindus and Muslims in South Africa, Kenya, Uganda, Fiji, Surinam, Trinidad and Tobago and Guyana than the later migrants particularly after independence. In most of the above mentioned places they have very complementary relationship than modern day immigration to USA, UK and Middle East.

These are just few of the examples. I have not even touched upon the modern day traditional celebrations of marriage, new-born and cultural festivals like Bisakhi and Basant. The list goes on and on and on.

Most of the differences are modern, political, national and to a large part superficial, largely propagated with the help of curriculum wings of education boards and government supported mouthpieces in the print and electronic media. They will be there as long as there are political benefit for the respective vested interests dominating the governments. If an average posting by an average person, laying out the bare facts on the table, can lower the temperature few degrees at this forum--so much for the eternal differences between Indians and Pakistanis dating all the way back to the big bang. Just imagine what magical effects of large number of sane people interacting face to face, more intersested in similarities than differences, in the common interest of peace and prosperity for the people of sub-continent.

Pardesi: I generally agree with your assessment about Sikhs being the largest loser in the wake of partition. You have to understand that Sikhs started losing favor with British after their strong support for Ghadar movement and the intra-Sikh bloodshed during the Akali Lahar and Gordwara Sudhar agitation in which 4000 people were killed. This resulted in the reduction of Sikhs in the army jobs from 20 percent in 1914 to 13 percent in 1930 and increase in the number of Punjabi Muslims and Pathans from 26 percent to 34 percent. All the later administration of Punjab were not sympathetic to Sikhs. While Muslims were granted as much as 24 percent quota in Bihar and Orissa through separate electorates in spite of their actual percent of population of 14-15 percent; no such advantage was delivered to Sikhs as a minority in Punjab. Master Tara Singh tried whatever he could but with British, Congress and Muslim League lined up against him, he had no chance of succeeding for any of his several proposals during the negotiation period.

I believe Sikhs can do lot better job by not dividing into several factions of Akali Dal. In democracy, all politics is power politics. They can gain lot more by uniting behind a single party who is sincere to Sikh issues more than alligning with Congress or BJP for power.

There were many leaders during partition, on the record, for inciting violence but they are probably all dead by now. It is a topic which should be studied unbiasedly by a commission made of people of high integrity. Its findings should be made public and taught to the next generation and serve as a mean towards a better future relationships (in an effort to make up for the insanity ).

YLH: It is good to point out selective examples where religion has played a dominant role in politics but there are many modern examples where it did not. In Kosovo, the Albanian population of 70 percent muslims, 20 percent Orthodox Christians and 10 percent Catholics stood shoulder to shoulder against mostly Orthodox Serbs. In Palestine, many of the well known personalities of PLO and Palestinian authority are Christians including Hanna Ashrawi. Some of the well known freedom fighters like George Habbash and Laila Khalid were also Christians fighting for pre-dominently Muslim Palestinians. In Eriterria, with 50:50 Muslim and Christian population fought and still fighting against 50:50 Muslim and Christians of Ethiopia. In South Africa, Blacks, mostly Christians fought against mostly Christians whites.

I am really amazed at Kabuliwalla and you for being 18 years old and quite knowledgeable. Please keep learning with open mind. Do “speed reading” as many books as you possibly can whether you agree with the authors’ opinion or not. Both of you have my best wishes and regards.

But dearest Man of Kabul ....

does it hurt to read the book anyway ..

:)

In a TV documentary about the tradition of religious chariots or cars (including the famous `juggernaut` at Puri) in parts of North and Eastern India, it was mentioned that responsibility of steering those cars in the melee while they were being pulled by devotees has been a heriditary one and these traditional heriditary positions are held by Muslims.

A world-reknowned shehnai maestro Ustad B Khan comes from a family whose traditional occupation included playing the shehnai in temples.

There are many examples of such interwining of traditions.

Sadhana

tahmed321 # 178

There is no disagreement on criminality of the actual killers. As for as the leaders are concerned, if there are no records of the leaders making hateful speeches about other communities just before the riots, we can’t blame them. I will also ask if the leaders had executive powers to stop the killings, did they do so in time or just looked the other way? Bringing criminals to justice is of course very important since it serves as a lesson for future criminals as well as it exposes, hopefully, people who were behind the petty criminals.

We in the sub-continent are very poor at holding the leaders accountable. That to me is our greatest weakness. You see, whether we have capitalist, socialist or religion inspired government system, if we let our leaders get away from their responsibility of protecting their citizens, then no system is going to work for us. We did not do it during 1947 (excuse being that we were not yet fully in control and the other side was also doing it) and afterwards in our respective countries. You can perhaps speak more for your side, but there was no inquiry in 1984 riots on our side. Would it not have been nice if we had found out, officially, if the highest-ranking congress leaders were involved in butchering Sikhs? Did Rajiv ordered it or his sycophants just wanted to prove their loyalty to him? Don’t you think that would have perhaps served a lesson and prevented Bombay riots against Muslims in later years? Looking at your side, if you guys would have had the guts to do 1971 post mortem, perhaps Kargil could have been avoided?

You see, ordinary criminals kill a person or two and we love to hang those guys. The leaders due to their criminal negligence, if not outright acquiesce, are responsible for thousands of deaths. If our social and cultural conscience is developed enough, we can prevent next wave of killings in order for us to come out of this vicious cycle in which we find ourselves. Without this, all of our material progress will mean nothing since we would be destroying it with our own intra-country or intra-subcontinent conflicts every 30-40 years. The reason USA had the longest streak of staying with one constitution and tremendous progress is bringing every one to accountability even after scores of years. The result my friend is that even we, the brown and yellow aliens, find it safe and secure here, more so than our own countries, and work our tail off to make this country strong and prosperous. There is some thing to be learnt here.

My apologies for long response. This topic is just too close to my heart.

ylh # 180

I don`t agree with this whole business of boycotting desi authors just because they are desi. ``Only foreign`` is an unfortunate attitude I think. There are good and bad in both desi and foreign. However on the other hand, just because something is from my own, doesn`t mean it is true either. The Congresswallah might be Indian but so are Communists and other notoroius distortionists of history. Congresswallahs sweet sugarise history to make it all end happily for everybody involved. The communists fight the bourgeoisie through misrepresenting facts about the haves and have nots.

I get the jist of your post. You want me to read Mr. B`s book because he too had an attitude similar to my own and later changed his views on Jinnah. However I do not agree with the fact that his book will act like a blue print to my change of opinion. Let me read on my own and form my own judgement rather than think and believe on the same lines as somebody else did. I will stick with Ms. Jalal

Kabuli

re tahmed321 # 178

You said

``What one can hold the leaders of the time responsible for is that none of them -Pakistani or Indian - ever thought of bringing the criminals under their jurisdiction to justice.``

But it is a fact that Nehru banned the RSS after independence and the Chitpavan Brahmins, the same community of Nathuram Godse and most of the RSS leadership(Gokhale, Jinnah`s mentor, was Chitpavan Brahmin too), suffered a lot after Gandhi`s assasination in the form of mobs setting their properties and person on fire. The Chitpavan Brahmin community for a long time was under the cloud of suspicion. Due to the deeds of a few of their fellow caste members, the whole community had to suffer. But I am writing this to mention that the RSS was banned and thus punished and it has only in the last quarter of the 20th century been active officially.

You said

``I dont think the distinction between Hindu and Muslim arose only a hundred years ago, I think it goes back to the time Islam first came to India.``

You are right when you say Islam and ``Hinduism`` are different. But there you`d run into trouble in that which Hinduism are you referring to? If it is the advaita strain, then it is not very different from Islam. It is doubtable however if the Aboslute of advaita is the same as God. Sankaracharya, the founder of advaita did not think so. Vedic religion however talks about a lot of deities, but in the Vedas also there are slokas like Tat Tvam Asi which means ``You Are That``. This refers to the unity of the soul with the Supreme Being.

Aside from theory, what I think Sameer JB was referring to and which I am in conformity with is that the practical execution, the actual, day to day implementation of Islam and Hinduism in the subcontinent remained fuzzy and loosely defined. Islam and Hinduism as you have it today just did not exist except amongst the elite of both communities. This is not to say that people of the past were not just Muslims but also Hindus or vice-versa. I`m sure if you asked a `Muslim` 200 years ago about his faith, he would have answered Muslim. He would have believed in finality of the Prophet, the book and the unity of God. His Hindu counterpart too would have believed in the Vedas and so on. But what I am saying is that this did not prevent Hindus and Muslims to freely interact with each other and to be influenced by each other. It was not like the Muslims suddenly broke away from their Hindu past. The sufi tradition especially is symbolic of the above and the sufis were condemned as kafirs by the Muslim elite. There are works by foreigner and desi alike suggesting that Hindus never interacted and dined with Muslims for fear of losing their caste. This must have been highly impractical among the low-castes and thus the vast majority of Hindus because first of all, as it is they were low-caste.

They did not have ritual inhibitions. And their trades were either the same as that of low-caste Muslims or they shared a symbiotic relationship. It was only later on, for political reasons, so that people fall into one slot or another, and thus influence the distribution of resources and power sharing that boundaries between Hindus and Muslims became clear cut.

Pardesi #169 So I think we agree that those who did the actual killings in 1947 were just that. I think you will also agree that the political leaders - Pakistani or Indian - did not instigate those killings. They resulted from a breakdown of law and order. What one can hold the leaders of the time responsible for is that none of them -Pakistani or Indian - ever thought of bringing the criminals under their jurisdiction to justice.

SameerJB #171 I dont think the distinction between Hindu and Muslim arose only a hundred years ago, I think it goes back to the time Islam first came to India. The important question is: Is religion the only distinction between people? How about the distinction between the powerful and the ``peasants``?

On India & Pakistan must start anew....??

i really don`t see any logic to this ``reconciliation`` methodology offered..!!

i am a post-East Pakistan [ Bangladesh ] generation who is finally somehow beginning to get a feel of their ``identity``......we may have a lot of problems but we have to travel the road whether we like it or not..............!

we are in the process of making & for a nation it takes a whole lot of time to ``come good ``.......maybe i won`t be around to see it happen but i have firm faith , it shall happen somewhere in time......!

we can only live peacefully if we ``respect in all shades & meanings of the word `` the ppl around us , their idealogies & their faith.....!!!

SameerJB # 171

As usual, another masterpiece from you. Thank you.

Kabuli and ylh started this honest and open discussion on our icons and now we all are in this. Thanks my young friends. If I get in trouble on these topics, you are responsible :-).

You are perhaps right that roots of our troubles go beyond 1947 and therefore no single person was responsible for partition and therefore should not be blamed for all the misery that some of us experienced. Mr. Jinnah should be seen as just a symbol (and not totally responsible for) of all the good things that happened to Muslims of Pakistan and not so good experiences that some of us had on the other side of the border. That closes the chapter on Mr. Jinnah, as for as I am concerned.

You also touched upon some very interesting side topics – winners and losers from 1947 and where do we go from here.

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First, let us