Indians and Pakistanis Must Start Anew

Well meaning thoughts but impractical, unrealistic and quite frankly, annoying. Indians and Pakistanis are different people who have to be separated into two countries - ideally far apart from each other, but geography is a cruel reality for us.

The best we can hope for is to stay out of each other`s business. Other than superficial and meaningless similarities such as language, halwa, and malai kofta, there`s nothing of substance in common! Political ideology, religious inclinations, philosophical ideas, and ethos are as different as can be. And they will continue to diverge in the future. So to harbour dreams of any cooperation is BS. I`m sure even some of you across the border agree.

I agree with Saxena, and I can not understand this obsession with some Indians about `cooperating` with Pakistan and `making a world-beating combination`. What rot! I just hope India and Pakistan to get out of each-other`s ways. India is large enough anyway, and the thing to do is try to make a `world-beating combination` of Indians.

re 1/2

With a casual line and equally casual thoughts, history is flipped upside down. You are suggesting that fifty years (of horrific trauma, I agree) have wiped out thousands of years of history?

Ths history of the South Asian sub-continent cannot be re-written. Pakistan`s ignominous envy of India and India`s blatant arrogance will of course not help matters. But that doesn`t mean aeons of shared culture, history, languages should be swept aside for the sake of an unseeing few. India is a melting pot certainly in `recent` history.

Sure, there can be no question (and no desire presumably) of `reuniting` the subcontinent. But if the two nations were to stop squabbling at the expense of their respect futures and to cooperate, life on both sides of the border could be more prosperous. Are there not more commonalities in this region of the world then those pulling the European continent together. Obviously economic and social realities have yet to set.

dL

Re:saxena, satish

// *Other than superficial and meaningless similarities such as language, halwa, and malai kofta, there`s nothing of substance in common! Political ideology, religious inclinations, philosophical ideas, and ethos are as different …” *//

What nonsense !! As an Indian I have nothing in common with the political ideology, religious inclinations or philosophical ideas of the saffron brigade thugs. I do not believe in a Hindu Nation, I do not believe in the killing of minorities and unlike the philosophical founders of RSS I have never admired Hitler.

I can safely say that I do not share even what you call superficial things as Language and halwa with Bal Thackray’s Shiv Sainiks.

These people have more in common with the fundamentalists in Pakistan ( who incidently will agree with satish/saxena thoughts) and Taliban than people like me.

The tragedy is that there is so much common among those, in Pakistan and India, who want to continue this atmosphere of hate and violence that they conciously help each other in suppressing any sane voices.

Udaykumar’s thoughts may be too idealistic, far fetched or whatever but they do point in the right direction. Sooner or later the people in the subcontinent will have to take matters into their hands and stop these religious bigots from making us fight each other. That is the only way forward.

Re:saxena, satish

// *Other than superficial and meaningless similarities such as language, halwa, and malai kofta, there`s nothing of substance in common! Political ideology, religious inclinations, philosophical ideas, and ethos are as different …” *//

What nonsense !! As an Indian I have nothing in common with the political ideology, religious inclinations or philosophical ideas of the saffron brigade thugs. I do not believe in a Hindu Nation, I do not believe in the killing of minorities and unlike the philosophical founders of RSS I have never admired Hitler.

I can safely say that I do not share even what you call superficial things as Language and halwa with Bal Thackray’s Shiv Sainiks.

These people have more in common with the fundamentalists in Pakistan ( who incidently will agree with satish/saxena thoughts) and Taliban than people like me.

The tragedy is that there is so much common among those, in Pakistan and India, who want to continue this atmosphere of hate and violence that they conciously help each other in suppressing any sane voices.

Udaykumar’s thoughts may be too idealistic, far fetched or whatever but they do point in the right direction. Sooner or later the people in the subcontinent will have to take matters into their hands and stop these religious bigots from making us fight each other. That is the only way forward.

I fully support Satish (#2). We should be looking at ways to take India forward. It is a large country as it is.

Even if we entertain this thought of reunification, it is important to think about the excessive concentration of power in Delhi with a Unified Punjab taking away an even more disproportionate share of the resources. The objective of federalism you espouse will be least served through such a set up.

No country, least of all Pakistan, can help with India`s progress. Our priority should be better planning and allocation of resources for uniform development throughout the country. The eastern part (Eastern UP, Eastern MP, North AP, Bihar, Orissa, WB and NE states) needs to be developed and that should put an end to all this nonsense about reunification. A start would be to duplicate the Green Revolution in my home region of Chattisgarh (about to become a state).

All that Pakistan can do for better relations is to give us MFN status, which it has to as a member of the WTO. If an economic relationship develops we add another dimension to our policy. Until then it is strictly a military problem and nothing more. Unfortunately, the media has given too much currency to this reunification nonsense just because Delhi is dominated by refugees from what is now Pakistan. The best service we could do to the nation would be to treat the concerns of people from all parts of India equally.

Ashish

Chowk staff,

Time and time again I have brought it to your attention that any talk of reunification is insulting and offensive ....

People like Udaykumar should take a break .... and grow up for a change.... Pakistan and India are not the same case as West Germany and East Germany .... simply because the people in Germany did not choose to be divided .... whereas Pakistan was an open and shut case of right to self determination

espoused by Muslims of South Asia .... through the 1946 elections .... do you understand ....it is this kind of insulting and degrading attitude that makes me HATE INDIA .... I reiterate I never hated India till I came across Indians who have no respect whatsoever for the other person ....

Time and time again I have requested all Indians on this forum to spare us there enlightened opinions ...

and since this is going to move in the direction of Pakistan and its ideology ....

Pakistan was made through the general will of the Muslims (and Muslims in name) of South Asia who constitute a distinct nation through their Turkish/Persian/Afghani heritage, History, culture and Language, ... and Jinnah had envisioned a Kemalist state for the Muslims of South Asia ....

Islam had in essence the same role of a nation unifier that it had for the Turks in their nationalist struggle against the Allies and the Greeks after the World War 1 under Ataturk....

Today we no longer need to define ourselves in those terms because today we are Pakistanis ... of Pakistan ... a reason enough to make us a distinct nation .... so FOR GOD SAKES SPARE US THE TALK OF REUNIFICATION if you have any hope for peace ....

-PAKISTAN ZINDABAD

-QUAID E AZAM ZINDABAD

-ATATURK ZINDABAD

-JIYE BHUTTO

-IMRAN KHAN FOR PM

Yasser Hamdani

Chowk staff,

Time and time again I have brought it to your attention that any talk of reunification is insulting and offensive ....

People like Udaykumar should take a break .... and grow up for a change.... Pakistan and India are not the same case as West Germany and East Germany .... simply because the people in Germany did not choose to be divided .... whereas Pakistan was an open and shut case of right to self determination

espoused by Muslims of South Asia .... through the 1946 elections .... do you understand ....it is this kind of insulting and degrading attitude that makes me HATE INDIA .... I reiterate I never hated India till I came across Indians who have no respect whatsoever for the other person ....

Time and time again I have requested all Indians on this forum to spare us there enlightened opinions ...

and since this is going to move in the direction of Pakistan and its ideology ....

Pakistan was made through the general will of the Muslims (and Muslims in name) of South Asia who constitute a distinct nation through their Turkish/Persian/Afghani heritage, History, culture and Language, ... and Jinnah had envisioned a Kemalist state for the Muslims of South Asia ....

Islam had in essence the same role of a nation unifier that it had for the Turks in their nationalist struggle against the Allies and the Greeks after the World War 1 under Ataturk....

Today we no longer need to define ourselves in those terms because today we are Pakistanis ... of Pakistan ... a reason enough to make us a distinct nation .... so FOR GOD SAKES SPARE US THE TALK OF REUNIFICATION if you have any hope for peace ....

-PAKISTAN ZINDABAD

-QUAID E AZAM ZINDABAD

-ATATURK ZINDABAD

-JIYE BHUTTO

-IMRAN KHAN FOR PM

Yasser Hamdani

Listen UDAYKUMAR

WE DID NOT MAKE A MISTAKE IN 1947 !!!!!!!!!

Pakistan ZINDABAD!!!!

I want to make an appeal to all Pakistanis coming on this FORUM ... please DO NOT RESPOND TO this

Article .... in the reply section just type IGNORE so that the Chowk Staff dont publish stuff like this just to attract people to their site and for the love OF A USELESS MEANINGLESS AND INDEED A WASTE OF TIME DEBATE ....

PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS ARTICLE SO THAT!!!!!

Remember I started hating Indians when I came across Indians .....

I HATE INDIA !!!!!!!!!

I HATE INDIA !!!!!!!!!

I HATE INDIA !!!!!!!!!

I want to make an appeal to all Pakistanis coming on this FORUM ... please DO NOT RESPOND TO this

Article .... in the reply section just type IGNORE so that the Chowk Staff dont publish stuff like this just to attract people to their site and for the love OF A USELESS MEANINGLESS AND INDEED A WASTE OF TIME DEBATE ....

PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS ARTICLE SO THAT!!!!!

Remember I started hating Indians when I came across Indians .....

I HATE INDIA !!!!!!!!!

I HATE INDIA !!!!!!!!!

I HATE INDIA !!!!!!!!!

And this is a call out to all good intentioned Pakistanis out there ..... a Boycott of Chowk is imperative unless they apologize and take off Uday Kumar`s article ``Pakistanis and Indians must start anew`` .... I am all for Freedom of speech but to put up an article just to cause anguish to other people and to start off a meaningless India Pakistan verbal match to gain cheap popularity for the site is just too much .... obviously even a dumbo can see that we have a reason and we have the right to exist and be respected as Pakistanis without being told that we were wrong ...

How would you like it if someone told you that you were wrong to be born???

This is an extremely unprofessional attitude by Chowk staff ....

For the love of God, when will these goody-goody, saccharine sweet, Bullshitting Indians get the point that India and Pakistan are two distinct nations, whose ideologies and paths are entirely different and will never converge. The Indian ethos is cohabitation and tolerance, live and let live (at least in theory and as India`s foundation). The Pakis adopted a communal ideology in 1947 and went their own way, though there are efforts now on part of so called ``liberal`` Pakis that Jinnah never meant it that way. He wanted a secular Pakistan where all religions could co-exist. Whatever. Though I curse the day the TNT ideology was founded, I believe that there is no going back. A lot of blood has been shed and to think of reunification (vile that the word sounds) or cooperation between our two countries is just plain silly. Indians should concentrate on India and her betterment. Not the whole damn South Asia. Peace is a requisite for that betterment. We`ll have to live as neighbours with Pakistan, but we don`t have to slather them with our kisses and vice-versa. Let `em go to hell or wherever it is they wanna go...why should we care? People like Udaykumar and co. should concentrate on evolving solutions and ideas for India`s betterment alone. As it is, that will be a difficult task. Decentralization is not a bad idea, provided the integrity of India is not questioned. Large states like UP and MP should be divided to make smaller administrative units. UP has a population equivalent of Pakistan!!!

Finally, India should seriously start thinking about making arrangements to arrest the possible inflow of refugees from Pakistan in the next 10 or 20 years. We should man the borders with Pakistan vigilantly to stop the inflow of guns, mullahs, drug money and most dangerous of all, Pakis running away from Pakistan (refugees). We have the lessons of Afghanistan before us.

Udayakumar,

Which world do you live in? We cannot summon the will to trade or even travel freely in each others countries, we are going to be in political confederation? We are going to internalize and deal with our neighbours failures, when we haven`t learnt to internalize and deal with our own ? Lets first solve the Naxalite problem, caste killings, high illiteracy, huge unemployment and a AIDS epidemic, to list just a few problems that willnot go away with a grand federation, before we think of what happens in NWFP or Sindh.

Our national ideology doesnot need retooling, its way past time that navel-gazing intellectuals began to dirty their hands with implementation.

Sadhana

Here`s what I think:

Indians and Pakistanis can unite only under Punjabistan (or Kalistan), Sindudesh, Gujaratistan, etc. South and middle India has nothing in common with Pakistan and people there would rather go their own way than have anything to do with Pakistanis. Think of it this way: Why would someone from UP care about Afghanistan?

The Indian interest (speaking for myself) in Pakistan is mainly political. If there were no conflicts, we probably would do business with each other but by and large ignore each other.

An impractical idea!

Re: YLH

YLH, Chowk is an open forum, where ideas are posted in the shape of articles and discussed. Everyone on this forum has a right to be heard and no one has the right to deny them their right to express their opinions regardless of their nationality, sex, creed, religion or sexual preferances.

Chowk is registered, as a domain name, in the United States of America and the First Amendment of the American Consitution protects Chowk`s right to publish anything its editorial staff might like to publish. Consequently, it is not your right or place to impose any editorial policy on the Chowk staff, which impinges or curtails or restricts in anyway, or form either implicitly or explicitly any opinion expressed on these pages.

You, by your own accounts, are studying in the United States and if nothing else, you should have learned some tolerance from your stay in the United States. You are absolutely right that this article might be offensive to Pakistanis who visit this site, but whether this article is offensive or not is a determination which they have to make for themselves. You, sir, have no right to impose your views on them. If you disagree with this article, you could have simply said so and left it at that, but your political tirade and outburst has ended up, ironically, to only fuel a Indo-Pak debate filled with hatred and the personalization of the issues based on the illogic of hate and revenge, which you have said you wanted to avoid yourself!

Sir, in an article by Beena Sarwar, you applaud her article`s message, which was an attempt to bridge the Indo-Pak gulf of mistrust through personal contacts and the willingness to hear the other sides point of view. In this article`s posts, you reverse your stand and engage in an xenophobic display of the worst sort of national pride based on your personal interpretations of this article`s message and intent.

Sir, I say this to you in the least offending manner, but yours rights end where my rights begin and such, I will be the judge of this article and you cannot tell me whether I can or I can not read this article or post a reply here. If this article offends you, then do not visit these interact pages, but do not deny others their rights, because you seem to have an inflated opinion that your right to decide outweighs others right to decide for themselves.

No one appointed you to decide their rights for themselves and please do not take upon yourself this task, because no one wants you to.

Ciao!