The People’s Initiative

A Correction: Mrs. Rai was a Christian.[Unintentional Slip]

Beena:

Seeing the amount of hatred between Indians and Pakistanis, reflected here on Chowk, do you HONESTLY believe that anything short of a miracle can make the two countries forget their grudges?

Ms. Sarwar:

Assalamalaikum!

There was a time I used to construct plans in my mind to make the people of Pakistan and India understand each other and respect opinions.

My maternal side of the family, (excluding my Mother) strictly believe they are Indians. My paternal side of the family is strictly Pakistani. I`ve been brought up most of my life under the shadow of My Mother`s side until I started to call myself an Indian. I didn`t do that because I thought I wanted to be one, but because in a closed community, I really wasn`t appreciated for thinking I was a Pakistani. My concern for the Islamic Republic of Pakistan was labeled as ``watan-parasti`` and my support for the Pakistan Cricket team was belittled. I was pretty young to stand for what I thought was right. This was in Kenya.

I lived in Pakistan for a while then came to the US for University. On my second day, at the bus-stop, three uncles with pajamas and speaking Gujrati, asked me the standard question, ``Are you from India?`` I said, ``No, Pakistan``

They turned to each other and said with no consideration, ``yaha bhi poch jatey hey yey Pakistani aur Bangladeshi``

Although these may be unique instances, (They have been quiet a number), my question is, ``If a neutral ground like America or Kenya doesn`t let me be a Pakistani with grace (in others eyes) what`s the point?

Tolerance and ``non-judgment`` may help us create a fertile ground to visualize the end to the violence in Kashmir, but it has a number of prerequisites and, form what my judgment has been, without people respecting one`s identity which encompasses their religion, culture and what they stand for, (on both sides) nothing can really come out of it.

Indians being tolerant, is a label that is on the wrong product. (There are some nice people I have heard of too, so excuse my generalizations)

Great read though!

I really hope it is as easy as going across the border, having command over one’s restart button, and having peace. I really hope so.

I, personally would like to go to India and see what its like, I will not be surprised if one of the Gujrati Uncles tell me “tu yaha bhi agai!”

Wassalam.

ylh #15

Bhai Tum Kin Charion Se Maghaz Kharab Karte Ho. Jo Dor Darshan Se Apni Tareeq Akhaz Karte Hain.

Charyon Ko Sirf Chrya Banaya Ja Sakta Hai.

I vividly remember the Ashoka, Chandar Gupt Bikarmajit and Bhudda in very good terms regarding their rule.

Don`t divert your energy on these illiterate Indians. They are here not to discuss.

We have an example for them.

Be afraid of dead who farts when clothing him.

Kabuliwallah

May I correct something ....

Pakistanis also adore Asoka ....

I remember picking up a book in the children`s section in Lahore Ferozesons once ... it was called History of IndoPakistan,which was brought to my attention as the prescribed text for many English Medium schools for their Pakistan Studies Book ... I forget the name of the author .. M.haigue or Haithi so hethi or sethi or something but the point is that

People living in Pakistan please visit their closest FerozeSons .....

Chapter 1 in that book was ``The coming of the Aryans``

Chapter 3 or 4 was ``Rama``

Chapter 5 was Gautum Buddha

chapter 6 was Alexandar the great

Chapter 9 was ChandraGupta Maurya

Chapter 10 was Asoka ...

Chapter 12 dealt with Kanishka

Chapter 14 was a detour to Prophet`s Arabia

Chapter 15 or 16 was about Muhammad bin Qasim

Chapter 17 was about Mahmud Ghaznavi

and so on through the Mughal History

I think the second last chapter was on Mahatma Gandhi ``the man of peace

and the final Chapter of the Book I believe was about Quaid e Azam Muhammad Ali Jinnah ....

The objective of this book was not just to introduce young Pakistani children to History but

``Character making through choosing exceptional Heroes from Indo Pakistan History``

Surely then Pakistan is not making Asoka Gandhi etc into enemies????

I admit that I am not aware of the Social Studies and Pakistan Studies texts in Urdu Medium schools but from what I gathered, they dont bash Gandhi Nehru or Tara Singh etc ....

Please make a Note of this

-Yasser Hamdani

The article stresses on the necessary interaction among different groups from both sides of the border. I feel the media plays an important role in making the masses realize their standing `for` and `against` each other. Though I will simply call it nonsense, if anyone tells me that people on both sides of the border have been ready to exterminate each other barring Kargil and Siachen episodes. Even before the Lahore Declaration, Indians have been visiting Pakistan and vice versa. Although the visits were limited to attending certain events, i.e Annual Reunions of their Alma Maters/Paying visits to the holy places in Pakistan and etc.

Few observations:

- I remembered as a teen-ager, for the OAKS (Old Association of Kinnaird Students) annual event, a delegate of old students from India would visit Lahore. The group was always very well received and had a decent representation of both Hindu and Sikh women.

- The Principal of Kinnaird in my aunts`/mother`s times 50s-60s was a Hindu lady, Mrs. Mangat Rai. A very well respected administrator. She is pretty old now, and last I heard from a friend in UK, she was at the annual reunion in London few years back. Her portraits are still hanging in Kinnaird`s hallways & she is/was always remembered with a lot of love and respect. Besides that, I have also seen delegates of OAKs Members (Gold Members) from Pakistan visiting India. One of my aunts, who led the group some-while back, told us the warmth they received on their visit to India. So our elders no matter where they lived, they could not forget their associations and attachments, be it with the people or the places. In US, there are few senior Indian women participants on the roster and still attend the event.

So, from the author’s write-up it should not sound that the escalated tension has made people cut-off their past ties. And will have to jump across many hurdles before wishing ‘a polite hello’ to the other side. They have been an extra mile to bridge the gaps and if they still have some sanity left in them, they will continue with the basic decency. As there should be marked distinction between humanity and barbarianism!

Going back to the article`s theme: Sitting in India or Pakistan, one reads/observes a very different view of both sides. There are many apprehensions and fears. Thanks to Z-TV News for spreading rubbish/nonsense on massive scale and adding fuel to the fire every now and then! This channel and the newscasters should be banned, the sooner the better for peace and harmony in the region! [A detestable news channel]

As I mentioned somewhere else, men/women of letters/words will act as bridges on which the masses will tread to read/understand the feelings of Aar and Paar. Nuclear weapons are only defense measures and cannot substitute for a bilateral talk. I hope by the time I submit my response, a nuclear weapon, addressing bilateral issues is not out in the test fields :-) ready to be launched!



One never knows!

The article is about ordinary Pakistanis and Indians reaching out. Recent achievements by Human Right campaigners like Asma Jehangir are clearlya breath of fresh air.

What is most disturbing are the responses on Chowk and the diatribe that every article degenerates into. A war between Pakistanis and Indians on the net. It is apparent that these are people well settled in the US having little stake or concern about the outcome of good relations between our two countries.

I lived in the US from 86-92 and my interactions with Indians, mostly of the South was an eye-openers. Loyal friends, their deep insight into each subject clearly setting them apart from everyone else.

Dear Arun Gupta, I am sure that one day dream of a better relations between India and Pakistan will come true courtesty the economic considerations and collaboration in IT.

Naveed

YLH,

From your posts, it is apparent that you exist. Now, Go Get A Life! Please.

Vikram

WHITHER PEOPLE?

Chief Executive to meet `clean` politicians soon (Dawn, June 28, 2000)

According to Ansar Abbasi, when asked to define the ``good politicians,`` General Moin Haider said people were the best judges and the government would act according to their aspirations. Comment: If people are the best judges, why not leave the matter to the people? If the government would act according to the people`s aspirations, why not make the present regime a permanent one (since it would be the first to act according to the people’s aspirations)? Additional comments welcome.

Sincerely, Bilal Ahmad

Ms. Sarwar,

I agree with you that peace is a requisite between the two countries and that people should strive for it. But let us leave it at that. Indians know the value of peace to progress and development. Our wars to China and Pakistan have proved much too costly for us in terms of advancement. But I believe that Indians should strive for peace for India`s sake. Why care about what happens to anybody else? Why transcend peaceful relations and become mushy-mushy? We should recognize each others existence and promise not to bother each other. There is a section of the population in India who have some sort of connection with Pakistan. But the majority of the population could care less about Pakistan. Pakistanis themselves try to put forth an image of them belonging to the middle-east/Central Asia rather than being put in the same bracket as `Hindoo` India. And let us be fair and not mention India and Pakistan in the same breath. The ethos of India and Pakistan are much too different though superficially they might appear to be similar. From my observations, a Pakistani cannot relate to an individual on an equal and a respectful plane unless that individual happens to be a Muslim. I`ve met many educated, supposedly liberal Pakistanis and even Bangladeshis, but they all cannot see beyond my Hinduness, whatever that might be. As an Indian, I can tell you that Indians, whoever it might be, can look beyond the religion of the person and respect him/her nevertheless. Pakistan does its darned best to curry favour with Islamic countries, but India has no such prejudices. Pakistanis idolize Mahmud of Ghazna and we adore Ashoka. This is not a derogatory attempt at Pakistanis, but all I am asking is please don`t put Indians and Pakistanis in the same basket and be unfair to both of them. I`m sure neither of them would be thrilled upon you doing so. Peace, definitely; but lets leave it at that. No amount of `people-to-people` contact is gonna change the inherent nature of people. Lets leave each other alone and move forward to claim our respective destinies.

Kabuli

ylh #2:

I think you need to take a few days off..I think that I am a younger,more warm-blooded,patriotic pakistani muslim than you are,but that doesn`t mean that I should go around showing my immaturity by posting hastily written,emotional replies like you do..I mean that I don`t love India anymore than you do but eveyone has a right to express his views/opinions/suggestions(you ought to be knowing more about it since you urself have had a great deal of freedom of speech..here on CHOWK.)..and trust me war/boycott and protests are not a solution to our problems rather we should indulge in dialogue and for that purpose all suggestions(how weird they might be!) need to critically analyzed and discussed in open..

so go have a coke,read the latest TIME and don`t visit chowk for atleast a day..cheers::))

always,

Taimur.

Ref: YLH #2

``obviously even a dumbo can see that we have a reason and we have the right to exist and be respected as Pakistanis without being told that we were wrong``

You certainly have the right to exist and be respected, but I don`t think the right not to be told about other peoples opinions, is one that can be upheld.

I agree with YLH though, that one should not pass facile judgements on what ``should have happened``. I believe that whatever god does, he does for the best. In the absense of the counterfactual, this is the best strategy. Besides we are removed from the facts, both by time and intention. It is presumptous to think that we are in any position to pass unbiased judgements on that phase of history.

For my part, I certainly am happy that Pakistan separated from India. It gave us Indians the chance to realize the worth of what we have, and the space to cultivate the best in us: culture, history, tolerance. Like an estranged couple, maybe it is best for both of us if we lived apart for a while.

-narain

Its good to strengthen bridges between members of the well-educated English-speaking `elite`. However, the problem is groups such as those described are taking landmark steps but they can easily be brushed aside or discredited unless larger numbers of people are involved.

We need concepts like sister cities/districts or sister states/provinces, well, if not so formalized, then we need a major effort in translation of each others press and literature into at least one of each other`s major languages.

For a start, easy/quick cross-translation of press/web material between Urdu and English, maybe through software, ought to be invested in. That may bring a larger number of people into the people-to-people ambit, within and across boundaries.

Sadhana

Well, we must try to do what we can. However, unless we have changed significantly in the last 50 years, it is all pipe-dreams. The people who were divided were those who had lived side-by-side for centuries. If that history of contact did nothing to prevent the ensuing mess, how will this help, unless something has changed ?

-arun gupta

``Cynics argue that unless `core issues` like Kashmir are not `resolved`, there is no

chance of peace. Mubashir Hasan responds that both countries were finally

heading towards peace through the bus diplomacy of 1999, and the Lahore

Declaration because it was in their own national interests and because of their

own socio-economic compulsions -- both of which still exist.``

What does Mubashir Hasan attribute the present status of indo-pak relationship to? What can we learn from this? Are the cynics right?

I suppose peace efforts, especially during times of conflict (low-intensity war), are important. I am wondering tho what keeps the activists ticking.. Is it the belief that only a minority that is getting in the way? We keep hearing here that the jihadis are only a minority and that they have virtually no electoral support. Are they going to turn turtle and suddently allow the people to express their ``true`` feelings? I doubt it.

People-to-people contact can work. I can attest to that personally. One of the most wonderful people I once knew was from Pakistan (and a punjabi muslim). I could never ever think of Pakistanis as bad people because of this one person. Whenever I read F_K, I remind myself of this person and everything balances out!

However, policies and politics are driven by other contingencies. The jihadis and Thakre`s will continue to wield influence.

Dear ylh . . . noted, you hate India. Good for you, many of us here in India, really, wish you the freedom of speech to say what you wish. Lucky for you that you are out there in the US, where you do have freedom of speech.

Incidentally, did you have a troubled childhood? Nappy rash catching up? Can we send you a soother, made in, say, Taiwan?

Yes, boycott chowk, please. Chowks are where adults gather, infants play in the drains nearby.

Be-gone, dull spot . . . etcetc.