A Letter from Talha Sughlatwala

Gymnophist

granted that the reactionary stance of the clergy

has become increasingly anti Modern .... but you have some striking misconceptions about Pakistan as you do generally about Pakistan and Islam...

Muslims` contributions to Science can never be denied ... as a matter of fact the west attributes it rapid success to the philosophy of Avveroes

otherwise known as Ibne Rushd ... a Muslim philosopher who was a devout Muslim as well....

there are always those who oppose change ... in his time there was Al Ghazzali ....today we have the fundoos ....

As for education of Women ... Quran and Islam clearly enjoin the pursuit of knowledge upon men and women ....

In Pakistan women do get educated and contrary to your expectations not all women are Hijab and burqah clad and they dont sit at home .... my mother is a 50 year old woman ... she comes from a strict feudal and religious family and she has been a medical Doctor for the last 26 years mashallah ... Also she is currently posted at a very high position mashallah ...Pakistan also has one of the largest female Doctor to male doctor ratio ....

True that a lot of women dont get educated but believe the proportion is roughly the same as in India because this has little to do with religion

and more with financial ability .....even the most fundamentalists of the families are getting their daughters educated now ...

The Madressahs of the reactionaries are gaining popularity slowly but for most part of its History Pakistan`s educational paradigms have been largely secular atleast untill Zia Daur .....Medressas need to go ... for the good of Pakistan and for the good of Islam ...

And you have to let go of your prejudices and stop claiming things that you know not of. Surely you can see that even the most fundamentalist of people like Naqshbandi advocates women`s education and women`s rights... dont u Asif?

-Yasser Hamdani

Re: Hum Log

Where as it is true that as a general rule the sikhs and christians do not live in fear let us not become appologists of the Hindu communalists by declaring that the recent attacks on christians are isolated incidents or these are just ordinary crimes which result from poor policing etc. These attacks on christians are a product of the same political ideology which produced 1984 and the demolition of Babri Masjid. Unless we grasp that and do something about it sooner or later we will go down the road of Hindu Talibisation.

ali1 #38

I can guess your chagrin in the fact that the Indian media and the Indian public are facing facts(arms training of some party workers) almost pronto instead of 15-20 years of fudging till it is too late.

The National Minorities Commission has arranged a meeting between Bajrang Dal and prominent religious leaders, that news item was of no interest to you, I`m sure.

Sadhana

Maliani # 30

Why are you trying to teach illiterate Indians who take their history from Door Darshan, political thoughts from the ramlings of L.K.Advani and Altaf Hussain.

Let them be happy in their musings.

Give them some superiority (inferiority) complex to be happy with.

And at lleast the IT boom has put in their mind that they are economically advanced even with regards to America, moreso other Asian tigers.

Let them be happy to play as a pawn.

Let them burn themselves.

As far as Sindhi`s are concerned, I can say that, they are brilliant minds.

The Sind Health is very much indebted to them. Also, it has produced the brilliant minds in every field including politics. The Sindhi press is one of the most vibrant in Pakistan.

This in no way to belittle Mohajirs, who have their own contributions to Pakistan and its people.

Friends, there were hundreds of Hindus also who were killed in those riots, children burnt, men stabbed, women raped. That was a riot for God sake where BOTH Hindus and Muslims killed each other. ( As per Justice Sri Krishna report, 900 people died in Bombay riots, 575 Muslims and 375 Hindus. )

And please read that letter again.

{The very next day the Muslims of Bombay revolted.}

revolted and did what? He did not tell you that Muslims started killing innocent Hindu women and children too.

Ras:

Sikhs do not live in fear in India. 1984 was an aberration which was a collective failure of everybody. Nor do Christians notwthstadning some crack nuts issuing anti-missionary statements. Some of the ordinary crimes have been twisted to make it look hate crime. India is poorly policed state. The administration has been slow to react to situation in timely manner. In a multi-religious country there will always be occasions when there are disputes over issues, but in India due to nature of politics it turns violent. We are aware of our shortcomings and trying to improve.

I ask readers to understand that inspite of venom left behind from partition, Hindus and Muslims have lived in peace. Number of Muslims killed in India is not even one hundreth of Muslims killed in Pakistan. So please stop being sanctimonious.

Let us try educate that hate is bad, religion is personal. Killing people from other religion is not going to take you to heaven.

Ref ali1 #: 38

You quoted me correctly [``If they think that reading the Qur`an in the original is the best way

to get Allah to provide for them, THEY have a serious problem; not the rest of the Indians.``] and then go on to say {You see, THEY (Muslims, Christians etc.) are the root cause of the problem. They and their Quran and their Bible and their religion and their social norms. Nothing is wrong with the majority which is ``tolerant`` and ``forgiving`` and ``inherently secular``. My foot.}

I said they (the Muslims) HAVE a problem not that they ARE the problem.

Can you tell me what your educational attainments are so far and where you are currently studying or employed? In case you have not gotten beyond 8th grade, you may actually have a future at a local madrassah. Please enroll there and see how that education qualifies you for any job in a modern society.

In case you have already reached college, please consider any male children you may have in the future for possible studies at a madrassah. I am sure you could get some friends in Pakistan to check the references of some of the madrassahs and tell you which impart the best religious education. In order that you may see exactly how that qualifies a Muslim to survive in the modern world, I am prepared to pay all the expenses of such an education for your sons.

Even Richard Burton in his 19th century travel through Islamic lands mentions that the maulvis who got their degrees after a decade or more of education at Cairo`s famed Al-Azhar University barely eked out a living. I don`t think the situation has changed for the better. On the other hand, since you contradict my opinion that reading the Qur`an in the original may not be the best way to get Allah to provide for you in this life, you should put your beliefs to action and enroll at least your sons in the madrassahs, in case it is too late for you.

I really don`t understand what you guys have got against science education and education for women.

The contents of the letter are not something
new to many of us who have met Indian Muslims
and Sikhs. But not all within their respective
communities have had similar experiences. And
just recently, let us not forget the Christian
community ordeals in India. But this is not all
that one can find illuminating in this article.
With the introduction and the conclusion, I believe that Zeejah has graduated to the realm
of the serious writers on any forum including
CHOWK. Well done!

Ras

First of all Mr Naqshbandi ... It will help if you seperated your religious views from the argument ... whereas let me assure you that I prescribe to all the beliefs of Islam that you seemmto believe in ... afterlife etc ... I dont feel that it is necessary for Muslims to involve religion into politics which inevitably leads to

its exploitation ....having said that I fully prescribed to the concept of religion being a major factor in ethnicity ...and hence I believe that the Pakistan Movement was a south asian Muslim nationalist movement.... and not a movement for Islam ... Muslim unity as a great mobilizer cannot be denied ....however this unity is a thin fabric which is destroyed as soon as

somebody like you imposes his own version of Islam ... on others ... it is also important to note that I believe that Islam is the most rational and Modern of all religions and hence is totally compatible with Modern secular democratic institutions .....and Jinnah seemed to believe this too .....

Whereas you can rightfuly accuse Ataturk of going to far on the path of secularism ... you cannot accuse him of being a traitor to the Muslims and Turkey ... his struggle the Turkish War of independence was one of the greatest victories of Islamic World achieved against the Greeks and british .... the Turk Nationalism that he espoused atleast was based on the definition of ethnicity according to Religion ... hence the treaty between Greece and Turkey on 30th January 1923 .... you can accuse him of turning against the religion per say but you cannot accuse him of being against the interests of Muslims ....He was during that time widely hailed as a great hero amongst Indian Muslims .... infact there had been appeals from the likes of you to become the Khalifah ...

So let me come to the August institution of Khilafah that you seem to cherish .... let me remind you of a few basic things ...

a) Khilafa is temporal power and not spiritual ..

b) Abu Bakr was the Khalifa tul rasool ALLAH ... BY THE TOKEN uMER SHOULD HAVE BEEN kHALIFAH TUL KHALIFAH TUL RASool allah ... and Usman should have been Khalifah tul Khalifah tul Khalifah tul rasool allah ... Ali khalifah tul Khalifah tul Khalifah tulKhalifah tul rasool Allah ....

but the earlier sahaba used the title ameer ul Momineen ... the Lord of the faithful ... .and not Khalifah ....

In any event the original Khilafah was democratic inessence ... once the Khilafah became monarchial .... it was not the true Khilafah any more ... not to mention that the word Khilafah is wrong in essence and there is no historic or religious justification for having kept it ...

The morals of the Ottomans were questionable ... so they can hardly be described as holy or sacred .....

Usmani Khilafah that you have taken a liking to was near its end ... turkey was destroyed and near ruin .... Ataturk saved Turkey ....

and just to respond to your allegation that he was a british agent ... the British actually supported the ottoman regime and tried to arrest and stop Ataturk`s nationalist followers many time ... Maybe you forget that the Khalifah was a prisoner of the British in Istanbul ....

Till the eventual military victory of Ataturk against the greeks in the battle of Dalmunpur ...

the British refused to even acknowledge his government let alone support him ....

to suggest that he was a british agent is as absurd of an attempt as Indians who try to claim the same for Jinnah and the Pakistan movement ..

However he did go a step too far in his cultural reform ... Ataturk`s blunder is perhaps best described Imran Khan in his book All round view ...

``Ataturk, the great Turk Nationalist made one big blunder ... he thought that by aping the western civilization he could progress.... overnight Turkey shunned its magnificent culture ``

Nobody doubts however that ATATURK WAS Turkey`s saviour ... the Khhilafah had to go ... its an old ancient institution ... which can only help to obscure the future of Muslims even more....

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

Thanks to Zeejah for showing the true face of Branminism to the un-initiated.

``Fear is the only answer to anti-nationals``, says Omkar Bhaway, VHP leader and abhibhavak (patron) of the Bajrang Dal.

http://www.outlookindia.com/20000710/affairs1b.htm

Further:

Q: Why are Dal activists being given arms training?

A: Young people have to be given purushochit (manly) training to strengthen their purusharth (manliness).

Q: So what is the motive of the Dal?

A: We are prepared for any eventuality. First we’ll try to convince them but if they do not understand, we’ll punish them.

Peace loving Pakistanis MUST understand that this is not some fringe element of the Indian society speaking......he is part of the elected government of India. His party has been elected by the Indians to lead the country, he reflects the true aspirations of Indian people. DON`T YOU GET IT!!! Stop insulting your own intelligence and quit dreaming of peace.

Now compare his statements with what other Indian have said on this forum.

[``He is not different from millions of Muslims living as minority in several secular democracies. It is a problem very peculiar to Muslims.``]

[``If they think that reading the Qur`an in the original is the best way to get Allah to provide for them, THEY have a serious problem; not the rest of the Indians.``]

You see, THEY (Muslims, Christians etc.) are the root cause of the problem. They and their Quran and their Bible and their religion and their social norms. Nothing is wrong with the majority which is ``tolerant`` and ``forgiving`` and ``inherently secular``. My foot.

Muslims and Christians in India have 2 choices, either to wait for the ``purushochit`` hordes of Bajrang Dal, fully supported by the Hindu janta, intelligensia and the Indian state apparatus to descend and destroy their homes and hearth and rape their sons and daughters; or respond like they did in Bombay in `93.....like Mr. Omkar Bhave says, fear is the only answer.

A-L-L-A-H-O-M: A Message from Above

Sabah Aafreen, SULEKHA, www.sulekha.com

When my father died in November, `97, I was shocked and wounded. During the grieving process, I became very interested in death and dying. My quest for the meaning of life was renewed. During this time I ran across a book titled, ``Saved by the Light`` by Dannion Brinkley with Paul Perry. It`s a true story of a man who died twice and the profound revelations he received.

The first time, Dannion Brinkley was struck by lightening. He was pronounced dead and revived twenty-eight minutes later in a morgue. He gave a profoundly moving account of what happened to him during his near-death experience. I was fascinated by his story. When he died, he experienced leaving his body and floating around on the ceiling, hearing everything that was being said. Soon, he found himself spiraling up through a tunnel of light and meeting a Being of Light at the end. This Being of Light helped him review his life starting from the day he was born until he died. He experienced in life, this time from the perspective of those he touched.

I read the book twice, learning deeper, more profound messages in it the second time around. Yet, I had missed a very special message. Two years later, I was skimming through the book when I ran across it. It hit me like a lightening bolt.

It`s a message from above that I`m sure would be meaningful to Sulekha readers.

So, the second time he died, he says, ``I saw blackness but heard voices… `He has an infection, he`s weak, his heart was damaged by lightning, he isn`t in very good physical shape`. I rolled over out of the blackness to face the stark brightness of the operating room… I looked down on myself from a place that seemed to be well above the ceiling… A nurse painted me with a brown antiseptic and then draped me with a clean sheet… I could hear chimes ringing, three sets of three with a tone at the end of each of them. In the darkness a tunnel opened… At the end of the tunnel I was met by the Being of Light, the same one that greeted me the first time… I began to see my life all over again.``

He saw his life go by and experienced the emotions of everyone he touched. ``After the life review was over, the Being of Light gave me the opportunity to forgive everyone who had ever crossed me… I didn`t want to forgive many of these people because I felt that the things they had done to me were unforgivable… But the Being of Light told me I had to forgive them… Forgiveness flooded my heart along with a strong sense of humility.``

Afterwards, ``the Being of Light was vibrating. As we moved upward, that vibration increased, and the sound emanating from the Being became louder and higher-pitched… we flew toward a range of majestic mountains, where we dipped down and landed on a plateau. On this plateau there was a massive building that looked like a green house…Inside were four rows flowers, long-stemmed beauties with cup-shaped petals the consistence of silk… I became aware of the fragrance of the flowers. As I breathed in the scent, I heard a chant resonating throughout the building. A-L-L-A-H-O-M went the chant, A-L-L-A-H-O-M... A-L-L-A-H-O-M went the chant, and I became more and more absorbed in the surroundings.``

The first time I saw this word, I thought maybe it was some kind of Jewish word. When I was skimming through the book last year, I realized that it`s actually two words: Allah Om!

Dannion Brinkley went to a very high spiritual place after forgiving the unforgivable. That`s where he encountered the spirits that were our ancestors. The spirits that were chanting `Allah Om` were very forgiving, highly evolved beings. Have you ever heard of anyone chanting `Allah Om` here on earth? If so, introduce me to them. It would be an honor to meet them. You have to be highly evolved to chant `Allah Om`.

Let`s admit it; we as South Asians have committed unforgivable crimes against each other in the name of religion. During the partition we slaughtered each other in a fit of rage. The British didn`t exactly help by adding fuel to the fire and by quitting India in such a hurry. But it`s easier to put the blame on the British than it is to face the demon within ourselves. I say, let`s face it. Let`s start by chanting.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

I have found my chant.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

As a Muslim girl in India, my grandmother taught me how to read the Quran and pray at a very early age. I learned to read Urdu and Arabic at home. At the same time, in school I was learning Hindi and my sister was learning Telugu. Through movies and books, we learned about Hinduism. My family didn`t teach us so much to hate the other religion as much as to learn our own very well.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

When we came to America, everyone assumed we were Hindu when we said we were Indian. ``Why do you wear that dot on your forehead?`` I was asked. ``I don`t,`` was my reply. Actually, now I do. And I know why. It`s my third eye. As a woman, I especially adore the images of goddesses in the ancient Indian myths and traditions.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

There must be other South Asians who are willing to chant with me. Even if there is a handful of us, we can prevent India and Pakistan from erasing themselves off the map.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

I know I`m not alone. Certainly, the spirits of those of our ancestors that died in the holocaust of 1947 and forgave the unforgivable are with me. Tell me you are too.

Naqshbandi ...

I am an ardent supporter of Pan Islamism but because it is going to be mutually beneficial for all Muslim countries ...

But all this Islam transcends nationalities ... is

meaningless to me and let me tell you that you Mr.Naqshbandi are extremely damaging to the cause of Pakistan ...

One cannot but feel sorry for Talha (May Allah rest his soul in peace) .... the rioting is indeed a bad thing .... India should provide more security for Indian Muslims who are NOT Pakistani but Indian ... they are their own !

As for us Pakistanis ... we can only feel relieved that we are not forced to go through the same ordeal as our Indian co religionists ...

But we too need to curb fanaticism and religious fundamentalism which Jinnah had spoken against, and which an antithesis to Pakistan`s ideology which is fairplay and shielding minorities from the tyranny of the Majority ...

We too need to finish the sectarian killing ....

and eventhough it is on a much smaller scale the Shia Sunni conflict is no less dangerous ...

The solution is what Ataturk did ... and what I think Quaid e Azam would have done had he lived ..

outlawing all religious parties and placing religion under state control... Only then can we lay the foundations for fairplay ... After all Turk nationalism was rooted in common religious beliefs also ... if they can be secular .. we can be too ....

Pakistan Zindabad!

A moving article. It does show the schiziod feelings of the muslims in India - not the majority but a minority amongst them.

However, HN #1 was way of the mark. Perhaps he should read Babar namma, visit Kashi - the mosque next door to the current temple has all the carvings of the old hindu temple, and is a scar on the Hindu psyche. Perhaps he could visit the Temples in Hanmakonda (Warangal) in Ap or any of the others in India then his ando the other miserable no goods crying shame will have the heads stuffed up their whats its.

However, the past is the past - bygones water under the bridge and all that. But Indians are fogrgiving by nature but the poor old pakis suffer from that old inferiority complex that they were the rulers of India forgetting that they sold the country to the Brits (Mir Zaffar is a hero in pakiland - poor deluded fools). Here are people still thinking one paki is a match for 20 indians and all that.

HN and others should get up and look at the coffee smelling it is beyond them

Inna lillaha wa inna ilayhi raaji`oon.

Dear Zeejah,

Thank you for what was probably the most moving article I have read on Chowk.

What I found myself thinking was how similar Talha bhai`s (Allah bakhshay) feeling and confusion was to my own and to that of other Muslims I`ve known. Above all though, it proved that Islam transcends all concepts of nationality and caste. The Muslims are one Ummah. Islam first, Pakistani/Indian second. (This does not mean one cannot be a good indian or pakistani citizen or that one is anti-indian or anti-pakistani.)

Perhaps with the exception of Judaism, I know of no other religion which has such an impact on its followers. And why not? Our Beloved Prophet has told us that the Muslims are as one body.

Why then should I not rejoice when a Muslim in India does well, even if against Pakistan? And vice-versa, why shouldn`t Indian Muslims feel proud of the achievements of Pakistani Muslims against India?

As Hazrat-e-Iqbal said, ``qawm, Millat se hai...``

It is this Muslim brotherhood which transcends all else which causes the powers that be to fear Islam more than anything else. In it are the seeds for real brotherhood of humanity...

May brother Talha`s soul rest in peace in Jannat ul Firdaws. Ameen.

Hindus get angry when Hindus are killed

Muslims get angry when Muslims are killed

Sikhs get angry when Sikhs are killed

......

Religious people never get angry when Human Beings are killed. That is what unites all religions and their followers.

Having heard this story before it perhaps

does not hit me as hard as it would others .

It is evry raw ..very knee jerk and an attract the

attention of all ppl ..peacniks and war mongerers

from both sides ..

I have a quote at the end with my sig..it seems

appropriate w here as it did for the person whom I placed it for ..`If tears could build a staircase and memories a lane ..I`d walk right up and bring you home again ` ...

Rest in Peace Choccy ..I think you may be free of those dark thoughts that outsiders and their fanaticism ..which troubled you simple soul

With due respect to departed soul, it is clear that deep down he was never comfortable living as a minority and often fantasized being a part of majority. He is not different from millions of Muslims living as minority in several secular democracies. It is a problem very peculiar to Muslims. This is inspite of the fact that many Muslims voluntarily migrate to secular democracies and prefer to live as minority. But even many of these find it hard to reconcile and long for some kind of fantasy Islamic world where everything will be hunky dory. Why should they live this duplicitous life is beyond my logic, but if they have not learnt their lessons from state of Taliban, a pure Islamic state, what then can be done to make them see the reality.

Many Muslims are always in a dilemma whom to support when caught between co-religionists and adopted country.

I will pick up few quotes from that story.



{But then, I AM confused by the ambivalence of my feelings.}

{So you see, choccy wasn`t always gentle and harmless.}

My reading is that Choccy was never gentle, please read his story carefully.

{Although the blasts were very satisfying, all the gory scenes I saw DID leave an impression on me. Those that died were probably as innocent as the Muslims who were killed earlier. If the Hindus decided to retaliate, it would go on and on forever. Having stared at death and violence in the face, my thirst for blood was quenched. I realised that mindless and senseless killing did not serve anybodys` purpose. A few weeks later a Hindu professor who had heard of the incident regarding my father, talked to me about it. He said that neither Hinduism nor Islam preached hatred, bigotry and killing. Those who did such deeds were neither Hindus nor Muslims. They were simply insane people who got a rush from seeing others die and see their properties destroyed. Such people he said, were used as puppets by politicians, to serve their own purpose. Politicians, whose only job is to change names of places, place wreaths on people long dead and consolidate their vote-banks. They are useless, worthless, corrupt people, with loose morals. I hate politicians!}

Why should it take a `Hindu` professor to tell him what is right? what happened to his family, community, Imams, Muslim leaders. Did they not tell him that?

{Here it was not unusual for a Hindu to greet a Muslim with an ``Assalam-u-alaykum``.}

How many times have Muslims greeted Hindus with Jai Sri Ram or Namaste? Did he ever?

{ But if I know Muslims, the Hindus would have had much more to be afraid of.}

{They knew now that Muslims couldn`t be messed with!}

What audacity and what mind set. Does he not fit into stereotype of what Hindus accuse Islamist of, a bully until confronted.

I am afraid, but even at the risk of being accused of insensitivity, since author has met his creator, I have to say that Choccy typifies a confused mind, rigid in his thought, caught between religion and country, and suffered from victimhood. He had shallow knowledge and never understood how to love and I doubt that he was even a good Muslim.