A Letter from Talha Sughlatwala

A Fine Balance by Rohinton Mistry on OPRAH show

Jan. 24, 2001

http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/tows_2002/tows_past_20020124.jhtml?promocode=002

http://www.oprah.com/obc/pastbooks/rohinton_mistry/obc_pb_20011130.jhtml

http://www.oprah.com/obc/pastbooks/rohinton_mistry/obc_20020124_discussion.jhtml

A Fine Balance Discussion

Rohinton Mistry took an unflinching look inside India during The Emergency and brought a new cultural awareness to our lives. Read the highlights from our on-air discussion.

A Fine Balance

by Rohinton Mistry Announced November 30, 2001

The time is 1975; the place is India, in an unnamed city by the sea. The corrupt and brutal government has just declared a State of Emergency, and the country is on the edge of chaos. In these precarious circumstances, four strangers are forced to share one cramped apartment and an uncertain future.

Interview with the Author

Rohinton Mistry

``I`ve been asked why I keep writing about India, and specifically Bombay even though I left 26 years ago. It remains my focus and makes it all worthwhile because of the people…their capacity for laughter, their capacity to endure.``

``Perhaps my main intention in writing this novel was to look at history from the bottom up, from the point of view of people like Ishvar and Om. The dispossessed. The hungry. The homeless. [I wanted to] see what it meant to them to live during this time of The Emergency.``

An Unflinching Look Inside Bombay

``I suppose anyone from the West landing in Bombay would first be hit by the crowds. The density of the population—14 million people in a small city and half of them living on the streets or in slums.

The next thing might perhaps be the great contract between wealth and poverty.

The problem of homelessness is worse now than in 1975, because the population has almost doubled. There must be twice as many people living on pavements, in slums and in rudimentary dwellings. People keep coming every day from villages because there is no prospect, they feel.

The street is controlled by the local gang leader who might extract some kind of token payment from a beggar or a pavement dweller. People lay claims to corners and pieces of the pavements just as they would to a sturdier dwelling.

Traffic in the streets of Bombay is chaotic at best. Riding a bicycle is a dangerous occupation. However, there are hundreds of them on the streets competing with the cars and buses and lorries because it is the poor man`s mode of transport.

The train stations in Bombay are crowded…One needs to be physically fit to do the daily commute by train. People travel hanging out of trains, sitting on top of trains, and there are casualties every day.``

A Fine Balance

by Rohinton Mistry

Announced November 30, 2001

About The Author

Born in Bombay in 1952, Rohinton Mistry immigrated to Canada in 1975 and was employed in a Toronto bank. He began writing stories in 1983 while attending the University of Toronto. He won two Hart House literary prizes and Canadian Fiction Magazine`s annual Contributor`s Prize in 1985. In 1987 he published a collection of 11 short stories, Swimming Lessons, and Other Stories from Firozsha Baag (1987), which describes the daily lives of the inhabitants of a Bombay apartment complex.

Rohinton Mistry`s first novel, Such a Long Journey, creates a vivid picture of Indian family life and culture as well as tells a story rich in subject matter, characterization and symbolism. It is set in 1971 Bombay, when India went to war over what was later to become Bangladesh. Mistry skillfully parallels public events involving Indira Gandhi with the misfortunes of the novel`s principal characters. When Such a Long Journey was published in 1991, it won the Governor General`s Award, the Commonwealth Writers Prize for Best Book, and the W.H. Smith/Books in Canada First Novel Award. It was short listed for the prestigious Booker Prize, and for the Trillium Award. It has been translated into German, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish and Japanese. Such a Long Journey was made into a movie in 2000, starring Om Puri and Roshan Seth.

A Fine Balance won the L.A. Times Book Award for Fiction, the Commonwealth Writer`s Prize, Canada`s prestigious Giller Prize and was a 1996 Booker Prize Finalist.

Mistry lives with his wife in Toronto. His new novel Family Matters, will be released by Knopf in 2002.

VijayAmrit!

Dawn is balanced and liberal.

Monthly newsmagazine ``Herald`` is also very good with mostly previous leftists.

krashid

I thought you are an Indian. I was not trying to teach Pakistan anything. If I form my image of Pakistanis by reading foreign newspaper, it won;t be very good. If you want to form image of India, and the truth, go to www.samachar.com.

I read dawn sometimes. You can tell me of a liberal newspaper in pakistan, which gives the right picture.

India Today, is pretty good for India.

Inspite of all this, I somehow felt your intentions are not good. Anyway hope this ends the chain of conversation we have.

Vijay Amrit# 74

My writings in no way, are going in any direction.

It is just an analysis, which is based on my previous experience and reading.

I might be wrong, in my analysis.

As far as your writing of educational system in Pakistan. It cannot change. If you know the ground realities in Pakistan, you should stop telling secularism to Pakistanis. This word is out of dictionary.

So best way to propose is to take concrete steps to mould education in a proper way without invoking secularism.

Pervez Hoodbhoy might be a good scientist, but does only agitation politics, the only aim is to sow seeds of discord. He has started politics after coming from MIT and is limited to his friends in Quaid-e-Azam University. He has no idea on ground realities in Pakistan.

The only good proposal he gave is to keep beaureaucracy out of education.

A few American cum Pakistani on this board do not represent the intelligentia of Pakistan, moreso the extremely religious attitude of most Pakistanis.

If you don`t agree, you can put the alternative.

What I am reading News on BBC or other media, points only in one direction. Either India has to revert back to secularism or there are many potential threats.

krashid #72

I don`t think you get the point. But I will reply to you one more time. Look at NDA and the percentage of MPs from different region. I understand your motive now, and can only laugh at it. You are the one who wants India divided. You know I won`t care if Indians decide that it is in there interest and they divide. I only can laugh at the way you think. Are you very scared of Hindus or BJP, that is making you think like that? If you are, I feel very sorry, but believe me, BJP lost in Rajasthan, supposed to be a strong hold of BJP. Hindus or anyone won`t just vote for hating anyone. Hope this help.s

As far as India was never one, but neither India was divided based on Religion. It got divided based on religion inspite of secular people. So secularism is not the reason for unity, it is just not. Do you see the point? Wether the rest of India should be united or not is a different question. It depends how far back in histroy you want to go? I can quote from AD where India was united to a greater degree. Go and have a look at Ashoka`s Empire. Go and have a look at different times of Indias kingdom and kings. Many king came and there boundary of kingdom varied, but it was never based on religion or language. You will be surprised how the kingdoms boundary crossed all these factors. It was in west, where the boundary of kingdoms were based on these factors, not in India.

There are many more things I can tell you but I won`t reply to your replies anymore, as I doubt your intentions (or maybe you fear and so your intentions does not seem right, but then we should talk about why you fear). When I cannot trust you, you will not be able to trust me and hence the conversation will be useless.

If you can understand me well and good, if you can`t well and good.

A very good article, but unfortunately, it will fall on deaf ears, blind eyes and closed minds. You can debate all you want, but do you think there will be any damn change in your schools?

It`s very dangerous when one tries to combine religion with education. It`s almost as poisonous as religion and politics. It`s not that I have anything against organized religion, but it is a personal matter and should not be confused with matters of the state.

To those of you who romanticize the blending of religion with education at all levels, think about things here in the US. This is a predominantly Christian country and would you all like your kids to learn about the Bible at school--especially when you`re not Christian? Fortunately we all enjoy the fruits of a secular setting and it is almost cynical to wish for something else for the others.

That`s why they have the parochial schooling structure here where if you`re Jewish or Catholic or Baptist, you can send your kids to a religious school where they inculcate the young minds with all the fine points of organized religion, but also ensure that these kids are given a rounded balanced education. While the local state bodies do not get involved in the administration of the schools, they do play a role in setting the agenda. You could even go to the infamous Bob Jones University in South Carolina to get an education--sure you`ll go for Southern Baptist fundementalism if that`s your cup of tea, you`ll also get education in fields such as economics, engineering and the like. Any thing like that in your madressahs?

Anybody ever heard of the Scopes Monkey trial? Has to do with a challenge to teach so-called biblical evolution in school. Fortunately, the US Supreme Court had the good sense to throw it out. Otherwise, we`d all have our kids tell us that God created earth in a week sort of bs.

Another question to ask yourselves: would you wish to give your kids an education in a madressah or in a secular school? Which sort of education will serve to advance the future prospects of your child? Now, why would you want the others to be inflicted with what you do not want your kids to get in the first place?

Cheers

Vijay Amrit!

Secularism or any concept is related to a stage of development of society. It is obvious (whether) you accept it or not that Indian secularism is only in name, now. It is Hindu Nationalism which BJP represents, with the support of North Indians. Whether it is good or bad is another matter. But it is not secularism.

Secular means in the eyes of state, an individuals religion has no meaning. Considering many reports where state (police) has directly participated in killings or supported it kept a blind eye to the excesses is a testimony to that. The attitude of politicians according to your own newspapers is a testimony to that. Nobody is saying secularism is good or bad. It is a seperate discussion. The point is India has deviated from secularism.

As far as your statement of Indian seperation into Pakistan and India could not be prevented inspite of secularism.

Lets go back to history. India has not been a single entity politically. Even in Mughal empire which was the last local empire before independence, their rule was limited to north India. Punjab and Kashmir was ruled by Ranjit Singh and his progeny. Hyderabad was ruled by Nawab, so does Oudh, Bengal, Jhansi and many many states. From the predominantly Muslim rule, the rule was taken over by British.

For most part, starting from before 1857 onward, the struggle against British was a common struggle of locals Hindu, Muslims, etc against British. The situation continued till in late 20,s and early 30,s Muslims started to realize that their economic interest and culture will not be safeguarded in a united India. This impression was in primitive stage. But when Congress got Govt in 1937, it became further clear by their actions.

You can say it in another way, that although Nehru and few other leaders were secular, but majority of nation was still adherent to ethnicity/ biases and was in a much primitive stage.

Ref:Mohajir #64

I hope you are joking!

The following news item appearing in an Indian newspaper offers one more perspective on the Muslim-Hindu relations in that country.

-------

Lord Ganesha`s invitation for nikaah ceremony!



Rakesh Dhimer in Surat

A marriage invitation card received by some citizens here has aroused the curiosity of many. The card written in Gujarati has a picture of Lord Ganesha on right and Sai Baba on the left. The card is like that of any Hindu marriage invitation except that it is an invitation to the nikaah ceremony of Shabanabi and Sheikh Rahim.

Shabana is the foster daughter of Gajraben Patel, who runs a tea stall in Ambawadi.

When Shabana was four-months-old, her mother Rabiya died. Her father left her in custody of her maternal grand mother Betunben.

Gajraben and Betunben were friends. When Gajraben saw Shabana he decided to adopt her. Gajraben told rediff.com, ``I had six children at that time. Still when I saw Shabana, when she was just four months old, I decided to adopt her. I have brought her up like my own child for the last 20 years. But I have also given her an Islamic education.``

Gajraben`s elder children would drop Shabana at a madarasa before going to school every day.

When Shabana`s marriage was fixed, Betunben insisted on a special kankotry (marriage invitation card). The card is issued by 14 relatives of Gajraben. None of her Muslim relatives are mentioned.

--------

#krashid

Inspite of following secularism, India did break and Pakistan was created.As far as I know Gandhi, and Nehru were considered very secular. Secularism is not required for unity, it is required because it is good. It is stupid to be non-secular. We should all respect each other religion. People who preach non-secularism will produce a society which is intolerant. This intolerant society`s intolerance will not be limited to religion, it will grow and that society will break again.

Re: krashid

Rashid, your constant hope in all your posts, about India breaking up, is pathetic. That is all I can say, and, as I wrote sometime ago to another dreamer like you... dream on pal, dream on...

krashid #66

I don`t know much about the content so cannot deny or agree. If you note, what I said was nobody will be winner in this. The only problem I had was his thinking that he felt better after the bombing. That made me angry. It was an emotional outburst on his part, so I reacted emotionally, which perhaps I should not have. What do you mean by ``return to secularism``, India is still secular, I think. There had been riots before, but they don`t make it non-secular. Since your name suggest you might be a muslim, I had a question for you if you are Indian Muslim. He also showed that muslims like Pakistan.

I don`t think Pakistanis are bad. I don`t think that Hindus who support the so called ``non-secular`` parties are bad. Some Pakistanis hate Hindus. Some Hindus hate Muslims. If Indian Muslims can feel for Pakistan, why should not Hindus feel the same way for ``non-secular`` party.

Why Muslims feeling for Pakistan is secular and Hindus feeling for such party is non-secular.

I believe and assume that the people who hate are in minority in each place.

VijayAmrit#65

Since you did not deny the contents.

And the contents clearly depict excesses from both sides (in the name of religion or ethnicity or identity whatever you want to give name).

That means it not only exists, but exists in the worst form.

The solution is what.

Kill the Muslims or kill the Hindus.

Or revert back to secularism, which has kept the India intact against all odds.

Historically, India has a very high centrifugal tendency. And the current trend is only fuelling it. With time when the volcano erupts nobody is going to stop it.

I am a Hindu. I never thought about killing Muslim ever. I always thought that if someone is killing based on religion, I will try to stop at my risk (I am not sure, if I will have the courage or not, but at least I dreamt that way.). After reading your article I feel very angry and think if Muslims feel that by doing the bomb blast they showed that they cannot be messed with, I think Hindus should start a riot in Bombay. I don`t live in Bombay, but certainly your article boils my blood man, and it says if blood flows let it flow.

I don`t think anyone will be winner out of riots, but if Muslim think that they can have an upper hand let us see it. Both Hindus and Muslim will loose. I am sure about that, but that won`t matter if somebody thinks like you to me.

Vijay

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2000-daily/07-07-2000/oped/o3.htm

EXCELLENT ANALYSIS !!!!

America sees reason- Masud Akhtar Shaikh



Clinton`s distrust of India must have been further reinforced by the Pakistani print media which has been constantly warning America about the proverbial unreliable behaviour of Hindus, both as individuals and as a nation. In the meantime, some insider might have whispered into Clinton`s ears that the famous Urdu proverb ``Baghal mein chhury munh mein Ram Ram`` (professing godliness with a knife concealed in the sleeve) is a true reflection of the Hindu mind and that he better be careful while embracing his Indian friends! Clinton`s conscience must have pricked him for having unjustifiably caused distress to an old ally like Pakistan. Hence a directive to Albright et al to mind their words while talking about Pakistan.

gymnosophist #62:

And did I in any way condone this attitude of theirs? I abhor this attitude of the Taliban as much, if not more, as anyone else. Again, I just gave you the reasons they give. I agree their attitude is discriminatory and criminal. I never said they were being rational about this.

And regarding your complaint about the rest of the Islamic world not doing enough about the plight of Afghan women - most of the Arabs are no less rational than the Afghans. Currently I`m in an Arab country where women still don`t have any suffrage, even though in Islam they have been granted political rights. As far as Pakistan is concerned, I can`t say much about the government`s stance but the print media does highlight these problems all the time. And at the moment we`ve got similar problems of our own which we can`t handle so you can`t really expect us to go out and help them. As for the rest of the Muslim countries, again, I`m in no position to say anything.

- lk

Ref Lubna #: 61

You said {All I did was give you some of the reasons THEY (the Taliban) give for denying women this right in their country. They don`t say oh education of women is not allowed in Islam, they just have their OWN ideas as to HOW MUCH education, what TYPE of education, and under what CIRCUMSTANCES this education should take place. I NEVER said I SUPPORTED their ideas or their reasons behind this.}

A 3rd grade education is equivalent to functional illiteracy. To deny any segment of the population the right to the fullest education is discrimination. To impose the burdens the Taliban have imposed on the women of Afghanistan is nothing short of criminal. Telling women that they cannot leave their households without a male escort is equivalent to the Nazis telling the Jews that they cannot leave the Warsaw ghetto. And we all know how the world views the Nazis now for their crimes. In fact, in every aspect of daily life, you can say that the Afghan women are living in a concentration camp. And to use religion to support this behavior is irrational: we will make your life hell on earth so that you can go to heaven!

It is a pity that the Islamic world cares so little about the plight of Afghan women, their own co-religionists. It is to be noted that only three countries, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Pakistan, recognize the Taliban. The crimes of the Pak military in supporting the Taliban may go unpunished in this life but surely they would receive no mercy in the hereafter.

gymnosophist #58:

I`ll try and explain myself again!

Whatever reasons the Taliban give for not providing education for their women, they DO NOT DENY the fact that women have a right to education in Islam. They CANNOT deny that.

All I did was give you some of the reasons THEY give for denying women this right in their country. They don`t say oh education of women is not allowed in Islam, they just have their OWN ideas as to HOW MUCH education, what TYPE of education, and under what CIRCUMSTANCES this education should take place. I NEVER said I SUPPORTED their ideas or their reasons behind this.

I agree with you that the Afghans are facing and will continue to face problems over the lack of educated women in their country, esp in the fields of medicine and education. And the Afghans are aware of this problem as well. I remember watching an interview of one of their ministers (forget which one) in which he was posed a question on this problem. In his reply he acknowledged the fact that this problem did exist. But he gave some explanation about the lack of funds and resources

and continuing political problems being the reason behind his govt`s failure to pay attention to this situation........ :| What can I say? They`re men. Now if only there was a woman ruling over the Afghans....... Hey, there`s nothing wrong with wishing! :)

And for your information, I`ve done enough research and interviews when I was at college to have knowledge and understanding of the plight of Afghan women.

- lk

i read your article,it was exciting,i too believe strongly that ,indaia can become strong only when both pakistan and india united together again.

I apprecite your patriotism,and be in the same phase.If some thing happens in between we should not divert our ideas.

Bye

ram

Sadhana said

``Anyway, I doubt anyone not living in India will realise how much peoples religious practices are in each others faces on a daily basis, unlike in the West where religious activity is conducted mostly behind closed doors and walls. On the subcontinent, its all out in the open with processions and festivals and traffic jams and noise which enters your home and the truly free use of religious motifs in public. Its exactly the same with assertion of regional identities and language issues.``

West ? .. what west of MARS ? .. did I ever get out on Sunday or Saturday watch TV ? (assuming you are in US) . You can see traffic near church with cops blocking the highway and parking lots for Sunday services, you can see evangelist preaching on T.V , they even have there own dedicated channel, in some parts of US business is not conducted, church bells gives neighborhood rude awakenings … Christmas and Easter are observed (although Easter is not a recognized national holiday) Jews stroll on Saturday to snigogs , go to Jewish area and you cant buy a pack of cigarette (all the Jewish stores are close ion sat.) .. live near a collage campus and you will often hear knock on your door inviting you to save your soul … personally I have been approached at work to listen to Jesus! … people wear cross on their chest , display on there back view mirror .. man observe observe .. knock knock… who is there? .. John .. yes? I am hear to introduce Sadhana to the Lord.. Hallelujah !!!

Ref Lubna #: 49

You said {I would just like to point out that not even the Taliban deny the fact that women have a right to education in Islam.

They have their own ideas as to the type of education suitable for women and object to females being educated alongside males at schools and universities. Since they don`t have the infrastructure or the means to provide segregated educational institutions, education for women is non-existant.}

I understand that the Taliban believes that education for women upto the 3rd grade is sufficient. If so, who is going to become doctors and nurses? If co-education is seen as evil, do you think the Taliban will permit male doctors to treat women? Will gynecology as a specialty be eliminated in Taliban areas so that women can die of cancer of the ovaries and the uterus with their bodies riddled with secondary tumors?

How can anybody support the Taliban who do this today in Kabul where there are already established female doctors? Read any report in New York Times or the Washington Post to find out what the Taliban has done to the women of Afghanistan. Read about the women professionals driven mad because they have no male members in the family (killed by the Taliban or in the civil war) so they cannot leave their homes, they are not allowed to practice their professions and they cannot take care of their children. They are reduced to begging so that they can feed their kids.

You say {Now don`t get me wrong - I`m totally against what the Taliban are doing.}

Your justification - that the Afghans don`t have the means to provided segregated education - is tacit support of the Taliban.

There is no greater crime before God - Allah, Jehovah, or Bhagwan, whatever you choose to call him - than what the Taliban are doing to the women of Afghanistan.

The same thing goes for the mullahs of the subcontinent who attempt to suppress our mothers, our wives, our sisters and our daughters.

hello..

i read both the letters....and would like to mention certain things i feel within myself...

its high time that india and pakistan feel the

pain and stop this.....

i personally think that....if u r in india be

an indian..if u r in pakistan be a pakistani...

as there is no point brooding over things that

cannot be made possible... i know that many of

the muslims in india have thier kith n kin in

pakistan....but this is something we have to live

with.... call it a blame of gandhi or call it a

blame of jinnah...

come to reality..... dont be carried away atleast

now...after all this has happened.... many muslims

died and at the same time many hindus died....

the so called strong underworld dons of bombay...

have also not done anything good to ur community

as well.... when it was tense they just ran away

to safer places.... why care for such opportunists

at all...?

its all the money involved but nothing to do with

any religion.....

i know many of the muslims cannot agree to this...

but why dont u try to come to reality....

for gods sake ..... india and pakistan should live

their lives individually and leave the bhai bhai

stuff aside...as thats not going to work atleast

in the near future.... let us live our lives in

our own places and stop caring for anything outside....

``Rath Yatra``

There was once a documentary on Doordarshan, which was telecast at primetime by order of the Supreme Court of India which had heard an appeal from the filmmakers. The film was about Advani`s Rath Yatra. It contained interviews with many people and coverage about cities and towns before, during and after the Yatra passed through. It documented the inciteful speeches of BJP/VHP/RSS leaders, (Sadhvi Rithambara was notable) the opinions of the local populace and the aftermath of rioting which took place in many regions.

I found it very illuminating that even illiterate daily wage farm laborers when asked said about Babri Masjid ``A place of worship is a place of worship, whether Hindu or Muslim doesnot make a difference, its meaningless to knock down one for the other``

The Supreme Court when ordering the telecast said something like the film ought to be telecast to inform ordinary people about the manipulation by politicians of their religious sentiments.

Admittedly the Congress Party has also incited riots in its own inimitable way to the extent its gone into common folklore(which is one reason why its doing so badly in competition with the BJP).

The difference is in overtness. The Hindutva organisations were/are unapologetic, the Congress leaders pay lipservice to principles of religious harmony which they themselves undermine through deliberate actions.

Anyway, I doubt anyone not living in India will realise how much peoples religious practices are in each others faces on a daily basis, unlike in the West where religious activity is conducted mostly behind closed doors and walls. On the subcontinent, its all out in the open with processions and festivals and traffic jams and noise which enters your home and the truly free use of religious motifs in public. Its exactly the same with assertion of regional identities and language issues.

A lot more tolerance is required and a lot more mutual adjustment. There is a lot more common history of conflict and unity, both. There is also a lot more potential(some of it being realised) for benefits from diversity which is a justification in itself. There is a lot more potential for real trouble and the attitudes required to make it all work are also different, simply resorting to mutual recrimination is just not the responsible way.

The people of many regions and communities have, on the whole shown tolerance and forgiveness to each other. Making law-and-order institutions more responsive and responsible and seeing through political manipulation are the best ways not to trespass on their tolerance further.

Sadhana

re: hum log

While not in any way doubting your abhorrence of communalists and communalism I still think you do not fully appreciate the entrenchment of communal thinking in the Indian society. The riots against sikhs were possible not only due to bad policing but because large part of administration itself is afflicted by the desease of communalism. The massacre of sikhs mainly took place where congress party was in power because at that time Congress party under the leadership of Indira Gandhi had decided to steal BJP colours and use minority bashing as a means of getting the majority community votes. It is not just a coincidence that Rajiv Gandhi started those prayers in Babri Masjid and Narasimah Rao government stood ideally when the Masjid was being destroyed.

You have rightly pointed out that fundamentalists among the sikhs should also share blame for what has been happening in Punjab. The fact that they are not anywhere now (Except in US ans Canada) is because they never had any support among majority of Punjabis, both sikhs and Hindus.

It is a tribute to the people of Punjab that inspite of large provocations from both sides vast majority of people from both the communities remained never fell for the bait of religiuos hatred. Perhaps other places in India with muti-religious populations can learn something from this.

The stench of self-righteousness on this board is overwhelming. Indian society has suffered and is suffering from persecution of minorities. Pakistan has suffered and is suffering from the persecution of Minorities. All you people are concerned about is scoring points off each other!

You Hindus are more brutish than us! No you Muslims are more brutish than us! Grow up. Perhaps a little more introspection would be more in keeping with the tenor of the original post.

This pointing of fingers keeps us blind to the evil and intolerance in both societies. And only the blind see the world in black and white.

Gymnosophist!

You mentioned the Richard Burton observation thAT after 10 years of education in Al-Azhar, they (Mullah) barely etch out a living.

Take my word, they are faring much better now.

Iran is run both on the right and left side by these students from seminary (sorry that is for sophisticated fundamentalist), Maddressah.

In Pakistan even though they don`t have electoral power, they are doing much better, economically.

You can tell about India, I think they should be at par with their counterparts in other countries.

ylh #46

Don`t be too apologetic.

You have to see the culture and stage of development regarding education.

Like in tribal areas, the education cannot be imparted to women. While in Karachi and Lahore, there is a high percentage of education.

Being from Karachi, I can tell you whether Purdah or not (meaning Burqah) in no way hinders or facilitate educational and career objective unless you have to apply for strictly sex model related job.

The recent report regarding social parameters put India and Pakistan near the bottom, I think at #136 for Pakistan and #128 for India. The work force included 25% women from Pakistan and 20% from India. Per capita income was 1800 for Pakistan and 2200 for India and so on and so forth.

It is a war between two Faqirs. And I must admit that Indians are better Faqirs, considering their air in their head.

re:ali1

Please stop quoting me selectively. First and last paragraph of my post clearly states where do I stand on Hindu fundamentalists. I am just arguing for others to do the same in their own communities, Sikhs included.

RE: HUM LOG

``Sikh community also has to share the blame for letting fundamentalists among them carrying on most virulent campaign against Hindus and moderate Sikhs for years and turning the Golden Temple into a den of murderers.``

Here goes another ``tolerant`` member of the benovlent majority. The illogic of left-right head shaking, mamoon-bhanji marrying Brahmins never fails to amaze me.

So sikhs share the blame for being massacared! wah wah. By the same token, since Hindus have let fundamentalists amongst them carry out the most virulent campaign against Christians and Muslims, they would share the blame if they are massacared at some point!!

gymnosophist #48:

If you don`t mind my intruding, I would just like to point out that not even the Taliban deny the fact that women have a right to education in Islam.

They have their own ideas as to the type of education suitable for women and object to females being educated alongside males at schools and universities. Since they don`t have the infrastructure or the means to provide segregated educational institutions, education for women is non-existant.

Now don`t get me wrong - I`m totally against what the Taliban are doing.

- lk

Ref ylh #: 46

You say {And you have to let go of your prejudices and stop claiming things that you know not of. Surely you can see that even the most fundamentalist of people like Naqshbandi advocates women`s education and women`s rights... dont u Asif?}

I am fully aware that the educated upper and middle class of Pakistan holds moderate opinions. But that same fact hasn`t helped the Afghans, has it? What has happened to the Afghan middle class now that the Taliban is in power? Perhaps that helps you understand why I rave against the fundos every chance I get.

The only prejudice I have is that against a closed mind.

re:Jagdeep

I don`t think that I in any way offered apology for scums in Bajrang dal. What gave you that impression?

I still maintain that India is poorly policed. 1984 was the biggest black mark on Indian history without a doubt. Killing of Indira Gandhi caught everybody off gaurd including Sikhs. Had police and administration been responsive, many hundreds of lives would have been saved. Look at where all Sikhs were attacked; Delhi, Kanpur, Bokaro, and few towns in UP. Except Delhi where goons from Congress party launched a systematic attack on Sikhs, other places there is hardly any system to enforce law even in ordinary cicumstances. Why were there no killings in south India, Maharashtra, Orissa, MP, Gujrat.

Sikh community also has to share the blame for letting fundamentalists among them carrying on most virulent campaign against Hindus and moderate Sikhs for years and turning the Golden Temple into a den of murderers.

Whatever, I strongly feel that all those who participated in riots against Sikhs should face firing squad without any mercy. If we want these things not to recur than we have to go to the bottom fo the issues. How to use civil means, media, democratic processes to solve inter-religious problems. If all of us control rabid fundamentalists among our own relgion, there will be little trouble.

Gymnophist

granted that the reactionary stance of the clergy

has become increasingly anti Modern .... but you have some striking misconceptions about Pakistan as you do generally about Pakistan and Islam...

Muslims` contributions to Science can never be denied ... as a matter of fact the west attributes it rapid success to the philosophy of Avveroes

otherwise known as Ibne Rushd ... a Muslim philosopher who was a devout Muslim as well....

there are always those who oppose change ... in his time there was Al Ghazzali ....today we have the fundoos ....

As for education of Women ... Quran and Islam clearly enjoin the pursuit of knowledge upon men and women ....

In Pakistan women do get educated and contrary to your expectations not all women are Hijab and burqah clad and they dont sit at home .... my mother is a 50 year old woman ... she comes from a strict feudal and religious family and she has been a medical Doctor for the last 26 years mashallah ... Also she is currently posted at a very high position mashallah ...Pakistan also has one of the largest female Doctor to male doctor ratio ....

True that a lot of women dont get educated but believe the proportion is roughly the same as in India because this has little to do with religion

and more with financial ability .....even the most fundamentalists of the families are getting their daughters educated now ...

The Madressahs of the reactionaries are gaining popularity slowly but for most part of its History Pakistan`s educational paradigms have been largely secular atleast untill Zia Daur .....Medressas need to go ... for the good of Pakistan and for the good of Islam ...

And you have to let go of your prejudices and stop claiming things that you know not of. Surely you can see that even the most fundamentalist of people like Naqshbandi advocates women`s education and women`s rights... dont u Asif?

-Yasser Hamdani

Re: Hum Log

Where as it is true that as a general rule the sikhs and christians do not live in fear let us not become appologists of the Hindu communalists by declaring that the recent attacks on christians are isolated incidents or these are just ordinary crimes which result from poor policing etc. These attacks on christians are a product of the same political ideology which produced 1984 and the demolition of Babri Masjid. Unless we grasp that and do something about it sooner or later we will go down the road of Hindu Talibisation.

ali1 #38

I can guess your chagrin in the fact that the Indian media and the Indian public are facing facts(arms training of some party workers) almost pronto instead of 15-20 years of fudging till it is too late.

The National Minorities Commission has arranged a meeting between Bajrang Dal and prominent religious leaders, that news item was of no interest to you, I`m sure.

Sadhana

Maliani # 30

Why are you trying to teach illiterate Indians who take their history from Door Darshan, political thoughts from the ramlings of L.K.Advani and Altaf Hussain.

Let them be happy in their musings.

Give them some superiority (inferiority) complex to be happy with.

And at lleast the IT boom has put in their mind that they are economically advanced even with regards to America, moreso other Asian tigers.

Let them be happy to play as a pawn.

Let them burn themselves.

As far as Sindhi`s are concerned, I can say that, they are brilliant minds.

The Sind Health is very much indebted to them. Also, it has produced the brilliant minds in every field including politics. The Sindhi press is one of the most vibrant in Pakistan.

This in no way to belittle Mohajirs, who have their own contributions to Pakistan and its people.

Friends, there were hundreds of Hindus also who were killed in those riots, children burnt, men stabbed, women raped. That was a riot for God sake where BOTH Hindus and Muslims killed each other. ( As per Justice Sri Krishna report, 900 people died in Bombay riots, 575 Muslims and 375 Hindus. )

And please read that letter again.

{The very next day the Muslims of Bombay revolted.}

revolted and did what? He did not tell you that Muslims started killing innocent Hindu women and children too.

Ras:

Sikhs do not live in fear in India. 1984 was an aberration which was a collective failure of everybody. Nor do Christians notwthstadning some crack nuts issuing anti-missionary statements. Some of the ordinary crimes have been twisted to make it look hate crime. India is poorly policed state. The administration has been slow to react to situation in timely manner. In a multi-religious country there will always be occasions when there are disputes over issues, but in India due to nature of politics it turns violent. We are aware of our shortcomings and trying to improve.

I ask readers to understand that inspite of venom left behind from partition, Hindus and Muslims have lived in peace. Number of Muslims killed in India is not even one hundreth of Muslims killed in Pakistan. So please stop being sanctimonious.

Let us try educate that hate is bad, religion is personal. Killing people from other religion is not going to take you to heaven.

Ref ali1 #: 38

You quoted me correctly [``If they think that reading the Qur`an in the original is the best way

to get Allah to provide for them, THEY have a serious problem; not the rest of the Indians.``] and then go on to say {You see, THEY (Muslims, Christians etc.) are the root cause of the problem. They and their Quran and their Bible and their religion and their social norms. Nothing is wrong with the majority which is ``tolerant`` and ``forgiving`` and ``inherently secular``. My foot.}

I said they (the Muslims) HAVE a problem not that they ARE the problem.

Can you tell me what your educational attainments are so far and where you are currently studying or employed? In case you have not gotten beyond 8th grade, you may actually have a future at a local madrassah. Please enroll there and see how that education qualifies you for any job in a modern society.

In case you have already reached college, please consider any male children you may have in the future for possible studies at a madrassah. I am sure you could get some friends in Pakistan to check the references of some of the madrassahs and tell you which impart the best religious education. In order that you may see exactly how that qualifies a Muslim to survive in the modern world, I am prepared to pay all the expenses of such an education for your sons.

Even Richard Burton in his 19th century travel through Islamic lands mentions that the maulvis who got their degrees after a decade or more of education at Cairo`s famed Al-Azhar University barely eked out a living. I don`t think the situation has changed for the better. On the other hand, since you contradict my opinion that reading the Qur`an in the original may not be the best way to get Allah to provide for you in this life, you should put your beliefs to action and enroll at least your sons in the madrassahs, in case it is too late for you.

I really don`t understand what you guys have got against science education and education for women.

The contents of the letter are not something
new to many of us who have met Indian Muslims
and Sikhs. But not all within their respective
communities have had similar experiences. And
just recently, let us not forget the Christian
community ordeals in India. But this is not all
that one can find illuminating in this article.
With the introduction and the conclusion, I believe that Zeejah has graduated to the realm
of the serious writers on any forum including
CHOWK. Well done!

Ras

First of all Mr Naqshbandi ... It will help if you seperated your religious views from the argument ... whereas let me assure you that I prescribe to all the beliefs of Islam that you seemmto believe in ... afterlife etc ... I dont feel that it is necessary for Muslims to involve religion into politics which inevitably leads to

its exploitation ....having said that I fully prescribed to the concept of religion being a major factor in ethnicity ...and hence I believe that the Pakistan Movement was a south asian Muslim nationalist movement.... and not a movement for Islam ... Muslim unity as a great mobilizer cannot be denied ....however this unity is a thin fabric which is destroyed as soon as

somebody like you imposes his own version of Islam ... on others ... it is also important to note that I believe that Islam is the most rational and Modern of all religions and hence is totally compatible with Modern secular democratic institutions .....and Jinnah seemed to believe this too .....

Whereas you can rightfuly accuse Ataturk of going to far on the path of secularism ... you cannot accuse him of being a traitor to the Muslims and Turkey ... his struggle the Turkish War of independence was one of the greatest victories of Islamic World achieved against the Greeks and british .... the Turk Nationalism that he espoused atleast was based on the definition of ethnicity according to Religion ... hence the treaty between Greece and Turkey on 30th January 1923 .... you can accuse him of turning against the religion per say but you cannot accuse him of being against the interests of Muslims ....He was during that time widely hailed as a great hero amongst Indian Muslims .... infact there had been appeals from the likes of you to become the Khalifah ...

So let me come to the August institution of Khilafah that you seem to cherish .... let me remind you of a few basic things ...

a) Khilafa is temporal power and not spiritual ..

b) Abu Bakr was the Khalifa tul rasool ALLAH ... BY THE TOKEN uMER SHOULD HAVE BEEN kHALIFAH TUL KHALIFAH TUL RASool allah ... and Usman should have been Khalifah tul Khalifah tul Khalifah tul rasool allah ... Ali khalifah tul Khalifah tul Khalifah tulKhalifah tul rasool Allah ....

but the earlier sahaba used the title ameer ul Momineen ... the Lord of the faithful ... .and not Khalifah ....

In any event the original Khilafah was democratic inessence ... once the Khilafah became monarchial .... it was not the true Khilafah any more ... not to mention that the word Khilafah is wrong in essence and there is no historic or religious justification for having kept it ...

The morals of the Ottomans were questionable ... so they can hardly be described as holy or sacred .....

Usmani Khilafah that you have taken a liking to was near its end ... turkey was destroyed and near ruin .... Ataturk saved Turkey ....

and just to respond to your allegation that he was a british agent ... the British actually supported the ottoman regime and tried to arrest and stop Ataturk`s nationalist followers many time ... Maybe you forget that the Khalifah was a prisoner of the British in Istanbul ....

Till the eventual military victory of Ataturk against the greeks in the battle of Dalmunpur ...

the British refused to even acknowledge his government let alone support him ....

to suggest that he was a british agent is as absurd of an attempt as Indians who try to claim the same for Jinnah and the Pakistan movement ..

However he did go a step too far in his cultural reform ... Ataturk`s blunder is perhaps best described Imran Khan in his book All round view ...

``Ataturk, the great Turk Nationalist made one big blunder ... he thought that by aping the western civilization he could progress.... overnight Turkey shunned its magnificent culture ``

Nobody doubts however that ATATURK WAS Turkey`s saviour ... the Khhilafah had to go ... its an old ancient institution ... which can only help to obscure the future of Muslims even more....

Pakistan Zindabad

Quaid e Azam Zindabad

Ataturk Zindabad

Jiye Bhutto

Imran Khan for PM

-Yasser Hamdani

Thanks to Zeejah for showing the true face of Branminism to the un-initiated.

``Fear is the only answer to anti-nationals``, says Omkar Bhaway, VHP leader and abhibhavak (patron) of the Bajrang Dal.

http://www.outlookindia.com/20000710/affairs1b.htm

Further:

Q: Why are Dal activists being given arms training?

A: Young people have to be given purushochit (manly) training to strengthen their purusharth (manliness).

Q: So what is the motive of the Dal?

A: We are prepared for any eventuality. First we’ll try to convince them but if they do not understand, we’ll punish them.

Peace loving Pakistanis MUST understand that this is not some fringe element of the Indian society speaking......he is part of the elected government of India. His party has been elected by the Indians to lead the country, he reflects the true aspirations of Indian people. DON`T YOU GET IT!!! Stop insulting your own intelligence and quit dreaming of peace.

Now compare his statements with what other Indian have said on this forum.

[``He is not different from millions of Muslims living as minority in several secular democracies. It is a problem very peculiar to Muslims.``]

[``If they think that reading the Qur`an in the original is the best way to get Allah to provide for them, THEY have a serious problem; not the rest of the Indians.``]

You see, THEY (Muslims, Christians etc.) are the root cause of the problem. They and their Quran and their Bible and their religion and their social norms. Nothing is wrong with the majority which is ``tolerant`` and ``forgiving`` and ``inherently secular``. My foot.

Muslims and Christians in India have 2 choices, either to wait for the ``purushochit`` hordes of Bajrang Dal, fully supported by the Hindu janta, intelligensia and the Indian state apparatus to descend and destroy their homes and hearth and rape their sons and daughters; or respond like they did in Bombay in `93.....like Mr. Omkar Bhave says, fear is the only answer.

A-L-L-A-H-O-M: A Message from Above

Sabah Aafreen, SULEKHA, www.sulekha.com

When my father died in November, `97, I was shocked and wounded. During the grieving process, I became very interested in death and dying. My quest for the meaning of life was renewed. During this time I ran across a book titled, ``Saved by the Light`` by Dannion Brinkley with Paul Perry. It`s a true story of a man who died twice and the profound revelations he received.

The first time, Dannion Brinkley was struck by lightening. He was pronounced dead and revived twenty-eight minutes later in a morgue. He gave a profoundly moving account of what happened to him during his near-death experience. I was fascinated by his story. When he died, he experienced leaving his body and floating around on the ceiling, hearing everything that was being said. Soon, he found himself spiraling up through a tunnel of light and meeting a Being of Light at the end. This Being of Light helped him review his life starting from the day he was born until he died. He experienced in life, this time from the perspective of those he touched.

I read the book twice, learning deeper, more profound messages in it the second time around. Yet, I had missed a very special message. Two years later, I was skimming through the book when I ran across it. It hit me like a lightening bolt.

It`s a message from above that I`m sure would be meaningful to Sulekha readers.

So, the second time he died, he says, ``I saw blackness but heard voices… `He has an infection, he`s weak, his heart was damaged by lightning, he isn`t in very good physical shape`. I rolled over out of the blackness to face the stark brightness of the operating room… I looked down on myself from a place that seemed to be well above the ceiling… A nurse painted me with a brown antiseptic and then draped me with a clean sheet… I could hear chimes ringing, three sets of three with a tone at the end of each of them. In the darkness a tunnel opened… At the end of the tunnel I was met by the Being of Light, the same one that greeted me the first time… I began to see my life all over again.``

He saw his life go by and experienced the emotions of everyone he touched. ``After the life review was over, the Being of Light gave me the opportunity to forgive everyone who had ever crossed me… I didn`t want to forgive many of these people because I felt that the things they had done to me were unforgivable… But the Being of Light told me I had to forgive them… Forgiveness flooded my heart along with a strong sense of humility.``

Afterwards, ``the Being of Light was vibrating. As we moved upward, that vibration increased, and the sound emanating from the Being became louder and higher-pitched… we flew toward a range of majestic mountains, where we dipped down and landed on a plateau. On this plateau there was a massive building that looked like a green house…Inside were four rows flowers, long-stemmed beauties with cup-shaped petals the consistence of silk… I became aware of the fragrance of the flowers. As I breathed in the scent, I heard a chant resonating throughout the building. A-L-L-A-H-O-M went the chant, A-L-L-A-H-O-M... A-L-L-A-H-O-M went the chant, and I became more and more absorbed in the surroundings.``

The first time I saw this word, I thought maybe it was some kind of Jewish word. When I was skimming through the book last year, I realized that it`s actually two words: Allah Om!

Dannion Brinkley went to a very high spiritual place after forgiving the unforgivable. That`s where he encountered the spirits that were our ancestors. The spirits that were chanting `Allah Om` were very forgiving, highly evolved beings. Have you ever heard of anyone chanting `Allah Om` here on earth? If so, introduce me to them. It would be an honor to meet them. You have to be highly evolved to chant `Allah Om`.

Let`s admit it; we as South Asians have committed unforgivable crimes against each other in the name of religion. During the partition we slaughtered each other in a fit of rage. The British didn`t exactly help by adding fuel to the fire and by quitting India in such a hurry. But it`s easier to put the blame on the British than it is to face the demon within ourselves. I say, let`s face it. Let`s start by chanting.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

I have found my chant.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

As a Muslim girl in India, my grandmother taught me how to read the Quran and pray at a very early age. I learned to read Urdu and Arabic at home. At the same time, in school I was learning Hindi and my sister was learning Telugu. Through movies and books, we learned about Hinduism. My family didn`t teach us so much to hate the other religion as much as to learn our own very well.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

When we came to America, everyone assumed we were Hindu when we said we were Indian. ``Why do you wear that dot on your forehead?`` I was asked. ``I don`t,`` was my reply. Actually, now I do. And I know why. It`s my third eye. As a woman, I especially adore the images of goddesses in the ancient Indian myths and traditions.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

There must be other South Asians who are willing to chant with me. Even if there is a handful of us, we can prevent India and Pakistan from erasing themselves off the map.

Allah Om! Allah Om! Allah Om!

I know I`m not alone. Certainly, the spirits of those of our ancestors that died in the holocaust of 1947 and forgave the unforgivable are with me. Tell me you are too.

Naqshbandi ...

I am an ardent supporter of Pan Islamism but because it is going to be mutually beneficial for all Muslim countries ...

But all this Islam transcends nationalities ... is

meaningless to me and let me tell you that you Mr.Naqshbandi are extremely damaging to the cause of Pakistan ...

One cannot but feel sorry for Talha (May Allah rest his soul in peace) .... the rioting is indeed a bad thing .... India should provide more security for Indian Muslims who are NOT Pakistani but Indian ... they are their own !

As for us Pakistanis ... we can only feel relieved that we are not forced to go through the same ordeal as our Indian co religionists ...

But we too need to curb fanaticism and religious fundamentalism which Jinnah had spoken against, and which an antithesis to Pakistan`s ideology which is fairplay and shielding minorities from the tyranny of the Majority ...

We too need to finish the sectarian killing ....

and eventhough it is on a much smaller scale the Shia Sunni conflict is no less dangerous ...

The solution is what Ataturk did ... and what I think Quaid e Azam would have done had he lived ..

outlawing all religious parties and placing religion under state control... Only then can we lay the foundations for fairplay ... After all Turk nationalism was rooted in common religious beliefs also ... if they can be secular .. we can be too ....

Pakistan Zindabad!

A moving article. It does show the schiziod feelings of the muslims in India - not the majority but a minority amongst them.

However, HN #1 was way of the mark. Perhaps he should read Babar namma, visit Kashi - the mosque next door to the current temple has all the carvings of the old hindu temple, and is a scar on the Hindu psyche. Perhaps he could visit the Temples in Hanmakonda (Warangal) in Ap or any of the others in India then his ando the other miserable no goods crying shame will have the heads stuffed up their whats its.

However, the past is the past - bygones water under the bridge and all that. But Indians are fogrgiving by nature but the poor old pakis suffer from that old inferiority complex that they were the rulers of India forgetting that they sold the country to the Brits (Mir Zaffar is a hero in pakiland - poor deluded fools). Here are people still thinking one paki is a match for 20 indians and all that.

HN and others should get up and look at the coffee smelling it is beyond them

Inna lillaha wa inna ilayhi raaji`oon.

Dear Zeejah,

Thank you for what was probably the most moving article I have read on Chowk.

What I found myself thinking was how similar Talha bhai`s (Allah bakhshay) feeling and confusion was to my own and to that of other Muslims I`ve known. Above all though, it proved that Islam transcends all concepts of nationality and caste. The Muslims are one Ummah. Islam first, Pakistani/Indian second. (This does not mean one cannot be a good indian or pakistani citizen or that one is anti-indian or anti-pakistani.)

Perhaps with the exception of Judaism, I know of no other religion which has such an impact on its followers. And why not? Our Beloved Prophet has told us that the Muslims are as one body.

Why then should I not rejoice when a Muslim in India does well, even if against Pakistan? And vice-versa, why shouldn`t Indian Muslims feel proud of the achievements of Pakistani Muslims against India?

As Hazrat-e-Iqbal said, ``qawm, Millat se hai...``

It is this Muslim brotherhood which transcends all else which causes the powers that be to fear Islam more than anything else. In it are the seeds for real brotherhood of humanity...

May brother Talha`s soul rest in peace in Jannat ul Firdaws. Ameen.

Hindus get angry when Hindus are killed

Muslims get angry when Muslims are killed

Sikhs get angry when Sikhs are killed

......

Religious people never get angry when Human Beings are killed. That is what unites all religions and their followers.

Having heard this story before it perhaps

does not hit me as hard as it would others .

It is evry raw ..very knee jerk and an attract the

attention of all ppl ..peacniks and war mongerers

from both sides ..

I have a quote at the end with my sig..it seems

appropriate w here as it did for the person whom I placed it for ..`If tears could build a staircase and memories a lane ..I`d walk right up and bring you home again ` ...

Rest in Peace Choccy ..I think you may be free of those dark thoughts that outsiders and their fanaticism ..which troubled you simple soul

With due respect to departed soul, it is clear that deep down he was never comfortable living as a minority and often fantasized being a part of majority. He is not different from millions of Muslims living as minority in several secular democracies. It is a problem very peculiar to Muslims. This is inspite of the fact that many Muslims voluntarily migrate to secular democracies and prefer to live as minority. But even many of these find it hard to reconcile and long for some kind of fantasy Islamic world where everything will be hunky dory. Why should they live this duplicitous life is beyond my logic, but if they have not learnt their lessons from state of Taliban, a pure Islamic state, what then can be done to make them see the reality.

Many Muslims are always in a dilemma whom to support when caught between co-religionists and adopted country.

I will pick up few quotes from that story.



{But then, I AM confused by the ambivalence of my feelings.}

{So you see, choccy wasn`t always gentle and harmless.}

My reading is that Choccy was never gentle, please read his story carefully.

{Although the blasts were very satisfying, all the gory scenes I saw DID leave an impression on me. Those that died were probably as innocent as the Muslims who were killed earlier. If the Hindus decided to retaliate, it would go on and on forever. Having stared at death and violence in the face, my thirst for blood was quenched. I realised that mindless and senseless killing did not serve anybodys` purpose. A few weeks later a Hindu professor who had heard of the incident regarding my father, talked to me about it. He said that neither Hinduism nor Islam preached hatred, bigotry and killing. Those who did such deeds were neither Hindus nor Muslims. They were simply insane people who got a rush from seeing others die and see their properties destroyed. Such people he said, were used as puppets by politicians, to serve their own purpose. Politicians, whose only job is to change names of places, place wreaths on people long dead and consolidate their vote-banks. They are useless, worthless, corrupt people, with loose morals. I hate politicians!}

Why should it take a `Hindu` professor to tell him what is right? what happened to his family, community, Imams, Muslim leaders. Did they not tell him that?

{Here it was not unusual for a Hindu to greet a Muslim with an ``Assalam-u-alaykum``.}

How many times have Muslims greeted Hindus with Jai Sri Ram or Namaste? Did he ever?

{ But if I know Muslims, the Hindus would have had much more to be afraid of.}

{They knew now that Muslims couldn`t be messed with!}

What audacity and what mind set. Does he not fit into stereotype of what Hindus accuse Islamist of, a bully until confronted.

I am afraid, but even at the risk of being accused of insensitivity, since author has met his creator, I have to say that Choccy typifies a confused mind, rigid in his thought, caught between religion and country, and suffered from victimhood. He had shallow knowledge and never understood how to love and I doubt that he was even a good Muslim.

...``Those who left everything they had and migrated to Pakistan 50 years ago are still referred to as ``mohajirs`` and treated as second-class citizens.``

Mr Talha if you`re up there or somewhere listening ....

The muslim immigrant community was referred to as ``Hindustani`` - which is fair since they migrated from Hindustan. But then this community realized that within Pakistan`s political context, Hindustani means Indian - the nemesis of Pakistani. Such labeling was then rejected by the Urdu speaking community. So it is the Urdu speaking community who keep calling themselves Mohajirs even 53 years after settling in Sindh.

And under no circumstances the urdu speaking immigrant community has been treated as 2nd class citizens but rather 1st+ class citizens. The local sindhi population has been deliberately driven away from the urban centers of Sindh. They have refused to adopt the language of the land where they have settled. And they have always shown a hysterical response to the adoption of Sindhi as Sindh`s official language. Their language has received official patronage and has been officially imposed on others.

Following are some important facts:

1. Mohajirs shared dominant position with the Punjabis in the civil bureaucracy. This mohajir wing of the bureaucracy used its power to benefit the Mohajir and to dispossess the Sindhis.

2. The Mohajir middle class was readily absorbed in the educational services, in the media and other white-collar professions. The setting up of the University of Karachi and other educational institutions and the urban bias in the educational policy ensured the expansion of this class at an adequare rate.

3. The rapid industrialization of Karachi provided job opportunities to the lower classes of Mohajirs as factory workers. Other lower class Mohajirs sought employment in the government and in the rapidly expanding private commercial and service sector.

4. In 1948 Karachi was separated from Sindh and designated as Federal Capital Area. It became a de facto Mohajir territory, providing a context for an insular thinking which exlcuded any consciousness of being in Sindh. In 1955 Sindh was dissolved as a province and amalgamated with the other provinces of West Pakistan to form the so-called One Unit.

5. Urdu was adopted as Pakistan`s national languate. It was introduced as a required subject for the Sindhi students, and the teaching of Sindhi to the Mohajir students was discontinued.

6. The Mohajirs were allowed to occupy the properties and businesses left by the emigrating Hindus. Tens of thousands of Mohajirs benefited from real or bogus property claims. Several townships were constructed to provide housing to the shelterless Mohajirs. New housing development projects were approved to provide to the Mohajir middle and upper classes residential plots at prices below the development cost, and loans on easy terms.

7. The new news media established in Pakitan, such as Radio Pakistan and Urdu and English dailies were dominated by Mohajirs.

Zeejah,

So touching and real in its simplicity, Talha`s account is very moving. What`s heart wrenching is

the epilogue. I wish he`d lived to read his letter on the Chowk. May his soul rest in peace.

Thanks for sharing this with us - I`m sure this would have pleased him.

- lk

In reply to Farangi_Kush (#11) who wrote :

Good poem.

Except the bridge then too was built by the monkeys to wage a war.(They seldom tell us the Lankian version).

-- Well, most of you guys want to make out it is a mythological story; and among those who say the story has a historical core, there are those that say this has been translocated to India from outside ( Indians cannot even invent a false religion without help from outside ).

So how can there by any Lankian version to tell ?

-arun gupta

sorry...saima set me right... the typo is of my own making in the `special instructions` .

I still don`t get it......

How do people hold entire communities responsible for the action of some co-religionists ?
How absurd ?
Honestly, how many of you feel directly responsible for any shitty action your co-religionists (past, present, ancestor) may or may not have taken ? Then why does the vice-versa not apply ..... oh well, as Manto once said ``Mish-take ho gaya``.

Me thinks, these Bombay-wallahs are to damn filmy. Too much jhatak matak, dhin-chak and cut-2-cut style, kyaa ?

the `98 was added by the editors ... Talha died on the night of august 14th. 1997...may God hold him in the palm of His hand.

Can we see this article in reference to article by UdayKumar.

I think India needs to do a lot of home work.

shankar #21

``The irony is that the core philosophy of all religions is identical. Unfortunately, humans have twisted religion as a vehicle to hate our fellow man.``

I couldn`t have said it better myself.

ina-lilah-e-wa-ina-alehey-rajaion

so touching so much feel like to be my story or some one around me so why don`t we except we all are the same ( in subcontinent ).

if we account for diffrence of opinions well i have diffrence of opninon with my father the way he think pakistan is and the way i think it is,

or to contrary what urdu speaking comunity think about pakistan ( i delibretly haven`t said mohajir cause thats what i don`t think they are thats what the dirty corrupt politicans made them believe )

so whats the point !!

the point is that this subcontinent have majorty if illitrate people with nothing much to do the only thing that keeps them busy is arguing and fighting ,

when the topic is pakistan india we fight on muslims and hindu,

when the topic is islam we fight on suni and shiat,

when the topic is pakistan we have a lot to fight about being a punjbi, sindhi, pathan, baluchi and god knows what else, and about our political parties ,

and then when we run out of topics we always have a wife at home to beat ......

/ *sigh//

iss tan ki tarf deko ju qatal gah-e-dil hai

kya rakha hai maqtal mein aey chashm-e-tamashai

heavy hearts

Very moving & well written letter. `Choccy` went to my Alma Mater, St Mary`s. I dont recognise the name, perhaphs he was junior to me.. I`m deeply saddened by his death, not to mention the senseless killings of religious riots.



The irony is that the core philosophy of all religions is identical. Unfortunately, humans have twisted religion as a vehicle to hate our fellow man.

My brother was married to a muslim girl, about a month after the riots. Both the bride`s & groom`s side were worried that there would be trouble during the wedding. To our pleasant surprise, it was well attended by relatives from both sides. In fact, the number of guests was far more than originally anticipated. There was genuine goodwill expressed & the desire for rapproachment was universally expressed by guests from both sides.

Just wanted to express some joy that came out of a bitter reality that plagues my society...

two-nations Talha it is his recognition of the dead as `people` that made him who he was... one of the best!

I had told choccy even then that his letter was good enough to be published and he was very excited about seeing his name in print ... The Friday Times did not think it was good enough maybe, as I sent it to them twice...once when he was alive and again before his first death aniversary.

Is the discrepancy in year(`98/`97) in the first and last line of the writeup a typo?

Brings back several memories to my mind.

Dehli in 84, Bombay in 92 and 93(guess I`ve seen more than my share of death and violence :-()

The sheer impotent rage at the bomb blasts in 93 the long lines of students at the phone booths trying to call home to tell their parents they were OK.

Brings back another memory in Bombay maybe in `91

seeing a procession of several trucks packed with people waving the Pakistani flag and shouting ``Allah-O-Akbar``.

anyway I`m rambling

Perhaps Mr. Sudheendra Kulkarni, BJP activist will read the article.

He wants to change Hindu-Muslim perceptions in India ?

Perhaps, if the BJP/VHP/RSS combine, while still maintaining a historical claim on the Babri Masjid site, admitted that they broke the law in breaking the Masjid, and that they should not have taken the law into their own hands, and perhaps rebuilt the Masjid, without any prejudice to their claim to the site, but agreeing that it had to be settled peaceably, no matter how long it takes,

then it just might be a start to your goal,

Mr Kulkarni ?

-arun gupta

The distance from Ghatkopar to Mohammed Ali Road is more than 20km

EST Reply #: 11

FARANGI_KUSH

``

The caste system was really there to serve a purpose.For hindus it must continue or they should give up hinduism.The two are mutually inclusive

``

--I really did not want to disrespect the author of the letter, by making this into another Hindu-muslim; india-paki thing.

So I will simply say this:

-Religons get distorted over time. Hinduism did too. Caste system in Hinduism was determined by profession/work/``karma`` not by birth. Over time this got corrupted. Just like in Islam, a lot of traditions are more tribal in nature than Islamic.

Eg: The ritual (followed in some muslim African nations and in Saudia Arabia) of female genital mutilation is not Islamic, correct ? Yet it is carried in the name of Islam.

Use this article for introspection and reflection. We can all learn from it.

AD

Dear Zeejah!

unbelieveably touching..indeed one of the best I have ever come across on chowk...his account was so simple,so direct,so natural...so real...

May his soul rest in peace.Amen.

and thanxs for sharing this with us....I am sure that he would have been happy to know that you gave it the audeince and readership that it so well deserved.

luv,

TAM.

It is India`s eternal shame that (1) the police were in cahoots with the terrorists and murderers in the pogrom against the muslims of Bombay and Surat, and (2) no one has been punished for these acts yet. Thakre, who incited the riots and the pogrom, walks a free and important man against the tattered ``secular`` flag of India.

hn:# 1

A good poem.

Except the bridge then too was built by the monkeys to wage a war.(They seldom tell us the Lankian version).

First the Golden temple,then the Babri mosque.Is it any wonder that when those who are not fit to rule assume power,do not know how to use it,without alien ideoligies.The caste system was really there to serve a purpose.For hindus it must continue or they should give up hinduism.The two are mutually inclusive.

Money or gold lovers become money Or gold savers.They develop miserly natures.That makes them security conscious.That makes them cowards & then the rest is always all history.

When temples & churches start hoarding gold their purpose is lost & their end can be foreseen.

__________________________________________________

This letter is not exactly an eye opener, the impression about Indian Muslim in India is created by very nature of the attitude they hold: in peace time or hard time, and every1 knows this fact more or less. As I have experienced it, it starts with Cricket, every time Pakistan wins against India they celebrate on the streets, and I don’t understand what inspires them: it is not a religious win, it just cricket. Well they always try to be different, they never try to mix with the main stream, wherever they are the minority or to that matter majority. I find it amazing that Muslim struggle to locate their identity wherever they are: In Pakistan they Anti-India, anti-Mohajir, anti-Shiite, in Afganistan they are Tailban, in India they are pro-Pakistani, in Philippines they are hostage takers, in US they bomb buildings. I wonder if there is any place available to them on Earth where they do not have to struggle for an identity.

Hi Zeejah,

Thanks for sharing this thought provoking letter with Chowk.

May Talha`s soul rest in peace.