A Letter from Talha Sughlatwala

RE: HUM LOG

``Sikh community also has to share the blame for letting fundamentalists among them carrying on most virulent campaign against Hindus and moderate Sikhs for years and turning the Golden Temple into a den of murderers.``

Here goes another ``tolerant`` member of the benovlent majority. The illogic of left-right head shaking, mamoon-bhanji marrying Brahmins never fails to amaze me.

So sikhs share the blame for being massacared! wah wah. By the same token, since Hindus have let fundamentalists amongst them carry out the most virulent campaign against Christians and Muslims, they would share the blame if they are massacared at some point!!

re:ali1

Please stop quoting me selectively. First and last paragraph of my post clearly states where do I stand on Hindu fundamentalists. I am just arguing for others to do the same in their own communities, Sikhs included.

ylh #46

Don`t be too apologetic.

You have to see the culture and stage of development regarding education.

Like in tribal areas, the education cannot be imparted to women. While in Karachi and Lahore, there is a high percentage of education.

Being from Karachi, I can tell you whether Purdah or not (meaning Burqah) in no way hinders or facilitate educational and career objective unless you have to apply for strictly sex model related job.

The recent report regarding social parameters put India and Pakistan near the bottom, I think at #136 for Pakistan and #128 for India. The work force included 25% women from Pakistan and 20% from India. Per capita income was 1800 for Pakistan and 2200 for India and so on and so forth.

It is a war between two Faqirs. And I must admit that Indians are better Faqirs, considering their air in their head.

Gymnosophist!

You mentioned the Richard Burton observation thAT after 10 years of education in Al-Azhar, they (Mullah) barely etch out a living.

Take my word, they are faring much better now.

Iran is run both on the right and left side by these students from seminary (sorry that is for sophisticated fundamentalist), Maddressah.

In Pakistan even though they don`t have electoral power, they are doing much better, economically.

You can tell about India, I think they should be at par with their counterparts in other countries.

The stench of self-righteousness on this board is overwhelming. Indian society has suffered and is suffering from persecution of minorities. Pakistan has suffered and is suffering from the persecution of Minorities. All you people are concerned about is scoring points off each other!

You Hindus are more brutish than us! No you Muslims are more brutish than us! Grow up. Perhaps a little more introspection would be more in keeping with the tenor of the original post.

This pointing of fingers keeps us blind to the evil and intolerance in both societies. And only the blind see the world in black and white.

re: hum log

While not in any way doubting your abhorrence of communalists and communalism I still think you do not fully appreciate the entrenchment of communal thinking in the Indian society. The riots against sikhs were possible not only due to bad policing but because large part of administration itself is afflicted by the desease of communalism. The massacre of sikhs mainly took place where congress party was in power because at that time Congress party under the leadership of Indira Gandhi had decided to steal BJP colours and use minority bashing as a means of getting the majority community votes. It is not just a coincidence that Rajiv Gandhi started those prayers in Babri Masjid and Narasimah Rao government stood ideally when the Masjid was being destroyed.

You have rightly pointed out that fundamentalists among the sikhs should also share blame for what has been happening in Punjab. The fact that they are not anywhere now (Except in US ans Canada) is because they never had any support among majority of Punjabis, both sikhs and Hindus.

It is a tribute to the people of Punjab that inspite of large provocations from both sides vast majority of people from both the communities remained never fell for the bait of religiuos hatred. Perhaps other places in India with muti-religious populations can learn something from this.

``Rath Yatra``

There was once a documentary on Doordarshan, which was telecast at primetime by order of the Supreme Court of India which had heard an appeal from the filmmakers. The film was about Advani`s Rath Yatra. It contained interviews with many people and coverage about cities and towns before, during and after the Yatra passed through. It documented the inciteful speeches of BJP/VHP/RSS leaders, (Sadhvi Rithambara was notable) the opinions of the local populace and the aftermath of rioting which took place in many regions.

I found it very illuminating that even illiterate daily wage farm laborers when asked said about Babri Masjid ``A place of worship is a place of worship, whether Hindu or Muslim doesnot make a difference, its meaningless to knock down one for the other``

The Supreme Court when ordering the telecast said something like the film ought to be telecast to inform ordinary people about the manipulation by politicians of their religious sentiments.

Admittedly the Congress Party has also incited riots in its own inimitable way to the extent its gone into common folklore(which is one reason why its doing so badly in competition with the BJP).

The difference is in overtness. The Hindutva organisations were/are unapologetic, the Congress leaders pay lipservice to principles of religious harmony which they themselves undermine through deliberate actions.

Anyway, I doubt anyone not living in India will realise how much peoples religious practices are in each others faces on a daily basis, unlike in the West where religious activity is conducted mostly behind closed doors and walls. On the subcontinent, its all out in the open with processions and festivals and traffic jams and noise which enters your home and the truly free use of religious motifs in public. Its exactly the same with assertion of regional identities and language issues.

A lot more tolerance is required and a lot more mutual adjustment. There is a lot more common history of conflict and unity, both. There is also a lot more potential(some of it being realised) for benefits from diversity which is a justification in itself. There is a lot more potential for real trouble and the attitudes required to make it all work are also different, simply resorting to mutual recrimination is just not the responsible way.

The people of many regions and communities have, on the whole shown tolerance and forgiveness to each other. Making law-and-order institutions more responsive and responsible and seeing through political manipulation are the best ways not to trespass on their tolerance further.

Sadhana

hello..

i read both the letters....and would like to mention certain things i feel within myself...

its high time that india and pakistan feel the

pain and stop this.....

i personally think that....if u r in india be

an indian..if u r in pakistan be a pakistani...

as there is no point brooding over things that

cannot be made possible... i know that many of

the muslims in india have thier kith n kin in

pakistan....but this is something we have to live

with.... call it a blame of gandhi or call it a

blame of jinnah...

come to reality..... dont be carried away atleast

now...after all this has happened.... many muslims

died and at the same time many hindus died....

the so called strong underworld dons of bombay...

have also not done anything good to ur community

as well.... when it was tense they just ran away

to safer places.... why care for such opportunists

at all...?

its all the money involved but nothing to do with

any religion.....

i know many of the muslims cannot agree to this...

but why dont u try to come to reality....

for gods sake ..... india and pakistan should live

their lives individually and leave the bhai bhai

stuff aside...as thats not going to work atleast

in the near future.... let us live our lives in

our own places and stop caring for anything outside....

Ref Lubna #: 49

You said {I would just like to point out that not even the Taliban deny the fact that women have a right to education in Islam.

They have their own ideas as to the type of education suitable for women and object to females being educated alongside males at schools and universities. Since they don`t have the infrastructure or the means to provide segregated educational institutions, education for women is non-existant.}

I understand that the Taliban believes that education for women upto the 3rd grade is sufficient. If so, who is going to become doctors and nurses? If co-education is seen as evil, do you think the Taliban will permit male doctors to treat women? Will gynecology as a specialty be eliminated in Taliban areas so that women can die of cancer of the ovaries and the uterus with their bodies riddled with secondary tumors?

How can anybody support the Taliban who do this today in Kabul where there are already established female doctors? Read any report in New York Times or the Washington Post to find out what the Taliban has done to the women of Afghanistan. Read about the women professionals driven mad because they have no male members in the family (killed by the Taliban or in the civil war) so they cannot leave their homes, they are not allowed to practice their professions and they cannot take care of their children. They are reduced to begging so that they can feed their kids.

You say {Now don`t get me wrong - I`m totally against what the Taliban are doing.}

Your justification - that the Afghans don`t have the means to provided segregated education - is tacit support of the Taliban.

There is no greater crime before God - Allah, Jehovah, or Bhagwan, whatever you choose to call him - than what the Taliban are doing to the women of Afghanistan.

The same thing goes for the mullahs of the subcontinent who attempt to suppress our mothers, our wives, our sisters and our daughters.

Sadhana said

``Anyway, I doubt anyone not living in India will realise how much peoples religious practices are in each others faces on a daily basis, unlike in the West where religious activity is conducted mostly behind closed doors and walls. On the subcontinent, its all out in the open with processions and festivals and traffic jams and noise which enters your home and the truly free use of religious motifs in public. Its exactly the same with assertion of regional identities and language issues.``

West ? .. what west of MARS ? .. did I ever get out on Sunday or Saturday watch TV ? (assuming you are in US) . You can see traffic near church with cops blocking the highway and parking lots for Sunday services, you can see evangelist preaching on T.V , they even have there own dedicated channel, in some parts of US business is not conducted, church bells gives neighborhood rude awakenings … Christmas and Easter are observed (although Easter is not a recognized national holiday) Jews stroll on Saturday to snigogs , go to Jewish area and you cant buy a pack of cigarette (all the Jewish stores are close ion sat.) .. live near a collage campus and you will often hear knock on your door inviting you to save your soul … personally I have been approached at work to listen to Jesus! … people wear cross on their chest , display on there back view mirror .. man observe observe .. knock knock… who is there? .. John .. yes? I am hear to introduce Sadhana to the Lord.. Hallelujah !!!

i read your article,it was exciting,i too believe strongly that ,indaia can become strong only when both pakistan and india united together again.

I apprecite your patriotism,and be in the same phase.If some thing happens in between we should not divert our ideas.

Bye

ram

gymnosophist #58:

I`ll try and explain myself again!

Whatever reasons the Taliban give for not providing education for their women, they DO NOT DENY the fact that women have a right to education in Islam. They CANNOT deny that.

All I did was give you some of the reasons THEY give for denying women this right in their country. They don`t say oh education of women is not allowed in Islam, they just have their OWN ideas as to HOW MUCH education, what TYPE of education, and under what CIRCUMSTANCES this education should take place. I NEVER said I SUPPORTED their ideas or their reasons behind this.

I agree with you that the Afghans are facing and will continue to face problems over the lack of educated women in their country, esp in the fields of medicine and education. And the Afghans are aware of this problem as well. I remember watching an interview of one of their ministers (forget which one) in which he was posed a question on this problem. In his reply he acknowledged the fact that this problem did exist. But he gave some explanation about the lack of funds and resources

and continuing political problems being the reason behind his govt`s failure to pay attention to this situation........ :| What can I say? They`re men. Now if only there was a woman ruling over the Afghans....... Hey, there`s nothing wrong with wishing! :)

And for your information, I`ve done enough research and interviews when I was at college to have knowledge and understanding of the plight of Afghan women.

- lk

Ref Lubna #: 61

You said {All I did was give you some of the reasons THEY (the Taliban) give for denying women this right in their country. They don`t say oh education of women is not allowed in Islam, they just have their OWN ideas as to HOW MUCH education, what TYPE of education, and under what CIRCUMSTANCES this education should take place. I NEVER said I SUPPORTED their ideas or their reasons behind this.}

A 3rd grade education is equivalent to functional illiteracy. To deny any segment of the population the right to the fullest education is discrimination. To impose the burdens the Taliban have imposed on the women of Afghanistan is nothing short of criminal. Telling women that they cannot leave their households without a male escort is equivalent to the Nazis telling the Jews that they cannot leave the Warsaw ghetto. And we all know how the world views the Nazis now for their crimes. In fact, in every aspect of daily life, you can say that the Afghan women are living in a concentration camp. And to use religion to support this behavior is irrational: we will make your life hell on earth so that you can go to heaven!

It is a pity that the Islamic world cares so little about the plight of Afghan women, their own co-religionists. It is to be noted that only three countries, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates and Pakistan, recognize the Taliban. The crimes of the Pak military in supporting the Taliban may go unpunished in this life but surely they would receive no mercy in the hereafter.

gymnosophist #62:

And did I in any way condone this attitude of theirs? I abhor this attitude of the Taliban as much, if not more, as anyone else. Again, I just gave you the reasons they give. I agree their attitude is discriminatory and criminal. I never said they were being rational about this.

And regarding your complaint about the rest of the Islamic world not doing enough about the plight of Afghan women - most of the Arabs are no less rational than the Afghans. Currently I`m in an Arab country where women still don`t have any suffrage, even though in Islam they have been granted political rights. As far as Pakistan is concerned, I can`t say much about the government`s stance but the print media does highlight these problems all the time. And at the moment we`ve got similar problems of our own which we can`t handle so you can`t really expect us to go out and help them. As for the rest of the Muslim countries, again, I`m in no position to say anything.

- lk

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2000-daily/07-07-2000/oped/o3.htm

EXCELLENT ANALYSIS !!!!

America sees reason- Masud Akhtar Shaikh



Clinton`s distrust of India must have been further reinforced by the Pakistani print media which has been constantly warning America about the proverbial unreliable behaviour of Hindus, both as individuals and as a nation. In the meantime, some insider might have whispered into Clinton`s ears that the famous Urdu proverb ``Baghal mein chhury munh mein Ram Ram`` (professing godliness with a knife concealed in the sleeve) is a true reflection of the Hindu mind and that he better be careful while embracing his Indian friends! Clinton`s conscience must have pricked him for having unjustifiably caused distress to an old ally like Pakistan. Hence a directive to Albright et al to mind their words while talking about Pakistan.

I am a Hindu. I never thought about killing Muslim ever. I always thought that if someone is killing based on religion, I will try to stop at my risk (I am not sure, if I will have the courage or not, but at least I dreamt that way.). After reading your article I feel very angry and think if Muslims feel that by doing the bomb blast they showed that they cannot be messed with, I think Hindus should start a riot in Bombay. I don`t live in Bombay, but certainly your article boils my blood man, and it says if blood flows let it flow.

I don`t think anyone will be winner out of riots, but if Muslim think that they can have an upper hand let us see it. Both Hindus and Muslim will loose. I am sure about that, but that won`t matter if somebody thinks like you to me.

Vijay