Why I’m proud to be a Pakistani

Jay,

Brother as a fellow Hindu whose family sufferred a lot due to partition I will still gives thanks to Allah that Pak was created. Instead of that sick clown cum scumbag Gandhi had we followed Babasahib Dr BhimRao Ambedkar we would have been much better of.

Read Bharatvani the problem is not Muslims it is Islam.

Hello Shandana,

Are you the same Shandana who attended St Michael`s at Clifton. Your mother used to be our Lit. teacher. If you are, then this is your classmate: Sabika. Good to know you are making a difference.

Amidst the dilaasay, the sar par haaTh pherna, the peeTh pay thapkee dena, the waH waH, the aaNsu (KhuShi/magarmuCH), the heaving bosoms inspired by floodgates of hubbulwatnee dangerously mixed with nostalgia, I wonder what is it that makes the silly question that the article asks so important. Important enough to not only warrant an article but the ensuing discussion that consists mostly of asbaat meiN sar hilaana as expected.

Each and every one of the individuals mentioned would have found their route to azmat (if we can call it that) INDEPENDENT of Pakistan. We can certainly be proud of the achievements of these people, and especially so because they are Pakistanis, but I don`t see how it makes Pakistan a source of pride. It is to their credit that they have survived even in Pakistan. Hawa Bibi is more a product of the bell curve of morality than ``we must be doing something right.`` If we were doing something right, we would have a lot more Hawa Bibis in a population of 140 million. The backdrop makes Asma, Hina, Pervez, etc. even greater individuals but I am sure they would have kept themselves busy even in the first world.

Perhaps the article should be engaged differently: Tantrums of a 50 year old nation.

Slink re:142

Hey, the house is still there, the family is still there, and heck, so am I at times.. :-) (though the lure of Uninterrupted Power and Water is strong..!).

AK

Gymnosophist#144

Jinah`s equivalent is not in English. It is actually, Jenran Bhoy, where two N are half sound of N. And R is a word which comes in Urdu after R.

He might have to do it in England when he went for Bar-at-Law.

For Chinna, we have a word in Urdu ``Chunna`` meaning small.

Ref kafir k khan #: 141

You say {As long as South Indian Brahmans will have mile long names, nothing in India is going to change.}

Whoa, whoa! Hold it right there! The record for the longest name seems to be held by one S.B.P.B.K. Satyanarayana Rao who is the MP from Rajahmundry. Even his constituency has the good sense to shorten its name from Rajamahendrapuram to Rajahmundry. Just imagine what would happen if Mr. Rao decided to unfurl his initials S.B.P.B.K!

Mr. Rao`s first initial would normally refer to his `Inti peyaru`, the traditional name of his house. Just be happy that he was not born in that Welsh village with 78 characters in its name. On the other hand, it is entirely possible, with the large-scale emigration of Y2K consultants to all parts of the world, that Mr. Rao`s great-grandson might be born in that Welsh village and that he would choose to adopt that as his `Inti peyaru`, along with 7 initials before his name, which would be Chinnasatyanarayana Rao (`Chinna` in Telugu meaning `little`) both in honor of his great-grandfather and to distinguish one from the other. That might take the cake for the longest name in the world!

Just watch out for what you are saying. The name Jinnah is supposedly not that gentleman`s family name but a nickname meaning `Junior`. The resemblance to `Chinna` is too close for comfort. One of these days, as you guys decide to honor your heritage, you might trace your lineage back to Hyderabad (Deccan) and start adopting multi-mile long names.

;-)

Kyaa kamal kee cheez hai yeh interaction! Did you know, that in India a large number of green cars are sold, green two-wheelers are sold, the Army wears green but there are no saffron vehicles or uniforms?

We MUST fix this, us hard-core right-wing phallus worshipping Hindoos.

By the way kafir my friend, if Indian women do kiss phalluses, what is wrong? Men buy inflatable dolls, what is wrong?

In your kafirabad there is place for a sense of humour or is that coloured red?

well well well...

i`m checking chowk after a week so i missed the transition from discussing what we have to be proud of to indiapak relationships. it took a while, so i`m taking it as a good thing.

as ferozk pointed out, this article was written as a sort of reply to another one that glorified our nuclear capability. it was meant as a tribute to the human spirit. simply that and nothing more.

to the indignant who took the lack of any references to the armed forces as evidence of ingratitude, write your own article about why you love them.

thanks to all those who added names, including gymnosophist and other indians who demonstrated a desire to move beyond the traditional parameters of our interaction and looked for ways (and people) through which we can connect. i had intended to add a disclaimer (already mentioned this in an earlier reply) saying i realised how inadequate my coverage was but in my haste to send this off i forgot to send it. my fault, i tend to be too impulsive.

urstruly..yes it is nice when people read things into articles the author never intended them to read. where did you say this happened?

to all those who feel this was simply a case of looking for a reason to be proud in the face of my own ineptitude...sure. basking in the reflected glory of others is something i try to do as often as i can. it helps me build up an appetite (i`m not just eating for me then you see)and thus maintain the smooth complexion we kgs going, foreign educated/tainted, flute sucking elitist snobs are famous for.

incidentally, that was the only tuition i had, and my mother paid for it by taking tuitions herself.

assadk...we used to be neighbours, didja know that?

shandana

Re: 138 Asim Hayat

Were U writing a reply or submitting a Ph.D. thesis. Thanks to Alla we have no boring guys like U in Kafirabad

I do remember, when Salman Khurshid, then Minister of State for External Affairs in the Narasimha Rao (Cong I)cabinet, faced down the Pakistani delegation at one of these futile slanging matches at an international forum in the mid `90s(the Indian delegation btw under the chairmanship of then Opposition leader A B Vajpayee), the Pakistani delegation called him `bhaade ka Muslim`.

Those who geniunely care to know can do a yahoo search on Salman Khurshid, I am not reproducing his germination records here.

So try to say something new, guys. You had a major problem with your neighbour even when BJP was not anywhere near power. What was the excuse then and during all those years?

And let us ponder one moment on the rule of the `majority`. I vehemently oppose the current (political) movement for a Ram temple at Ayodhya and condemn all religion-related violence, and hold BJP responsible for more that its share of it, but please to ponder for a second, in a hugely Hindu-majority country, despite so much political and other type of muscle being put into it, one temple cannot and hasnot been built so far for 50+ years. Does this look like `majority imposition` or fundamentalism?

If you begin to look at some of the facts, you have to look at all of the facts.

Sadhana

Re : Satish and brick walls.

A brick wall replies.

Satish,

As an aside I take it, saffron is your favourite colour.

In your fervour for ``we are superior than thou``, you failed to or possibly did not want to agree with what i had to say in my last reply. Written law and its practice are two different things in the third world. That is our primary failing. i have a hard time arguing with closed minds, and well, i can see you are not going to budge from your position. i shall let it be. furthermore, perhaps the following article shall highlight the role played by RSS in your religion-less India. Actions, they say, speaketh louder than words. Read and see the religion-less India in action, providing equality, and lifelong liberty to pursuit of success to its Muslims and other minorities.

The Hindutva laboratary

(By Akshaya Mukul)

The dividing line between old and new in Ahmedabad is the decrepit wall erected in the 15th century by its founder Sultan Ahmed Shah.

Today, it’s called the ‘Berlin Wall’ because it has become, over the last decade, both a physical and an emotional-psychological barrier, separating Hindu settlements in spanking new areas from Muslim clusters in the walled city. Those who, consciously or otherwise, choose to defy this segregation do so at their peril. Senior journalist Ashraf Sayeed learnt this the hard way. Some years ago, when Ahmedabad was in the grip of continual communal violence, his Hindu friends advised him to shift from Patrakar Colony to a “safer area” as they feared they would not be able to protect him for long. But when Sayeed tried to purchase a house in posh Gandhinagar, his prospective neighbours forced the Hindu property owner to rescind the deal. Today, he lives in a house bought from a Muslim; predictably, it’s in a Muslim neighbourhood.

Similarly, Hanif Lakdawala and his Christian wife Sheeba George, could not rent space for their Institute for Initiatives in Education. Ultimately, a Brahmin friend helped them. The obverse is equally true: Hindus in Muslim areas face a backlash.

Indeed, the state which produced the apostle of non-violence, Mahatma Gandhi, is a simmering cauldron of hatred. The few who care are mocked at. Meanwhile, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh utilises the Bharatiya Janata Party’s being in government to relentlessly push its divisive agenda.

The public has been so co-opted that the state government’s recent decision to lift the ban on its officials joining the RSS was met with indifference. Similar was the response when banners declaring, “Vishwa Hindu Parishad welcomes you to Hindu Rashtra’s village” mushroomed in several villages following the anti-Christian incidents in Dangs in 1998.

“Only a few decisions are taken publicly,” says former chief minister Shankarsinh Vaghela, once a leading light of the RSS in Gujarat. “The rest is a covert RSS operation, deftly planned and executed. In doing this, the RSS can go to any extent, even kill.”

But killing is usually unnecessary. Threats and intimidation are enough to hasten ghettoisation. When this fails, minorities, especially those in petty business, are boycotted. This is precisely how Muslim autorickshaw drivers were driven out of Bardoli last year.

State home minister Haren Pandya protests that “a communal hue should not be imparted to local issues.” He euphorically cites statistics to show that the number of people killed in communal riots has dipped during the BJP’s five-year tenure.

A senior bureaucrat counters: “The idea is to exert constant pressure on the minorities, and make them realise that the terms of their existence will be set by the majority. Since the government is a party to this, you don’t have to achieve this through riots and killings.”

Adds Lakdawala, “Even the recent Christian bashing was well-planned. You could read slogans like pehle kasai, baad mein isai — first butchers (Muslims), then Christians — on public walls in interior Gujarat way back in the Eighties.”

Why is the RSS using Gujarat as a laboratory for its Hindutva project? And when did this process begin? Replies Achyut Yagnik, coordinator of the Centre for Social Knowledge and Action, “It began with the 1969 riots in which nearly 2,000 people were killed. The involvement of the RSS, Hindu Dharma Raksha Samiti and Jan Sangh was brought out by the P Jagmohan Reddy inquiry commission.”

Gujarat politics underwent a change in the Seventies. The hegemony of the powerful Patidar (Patel) community, exercised through the Congress, was being increasingly challenged. Following the famous Navnirman movement against Congress chief minister Chimanbhai Patel, the party realised that, post-Emergency, it needed a new social alliance to stay in power.

Consequently, it forged the KHAM (Kshatriya, Harijan, Adivasi, Muslim) coalition and stormed to power. When Madhavsinh Solanki formed his Cabinet, Patidars found themselves out of favour. Says Yagnik, “For the first time, there was a divorce between political and economic power. It was an impossible situation.”

Looking for new patrons, Patidars found their opportunity in the anti-reservation struggle that began a year later. The BJP, whose earlier incarnate, Jan Sangh, had built a strong upper caste base through the RSS, grabbed the leadership of the movement.

The picture was now clear: upper castes were drifting towards the BJP; OBCs, Dalits and Muslims towards the Congress. (Dalit-Muslim unity was easily forged because the strong influence of vegetarianism in the state forced them to live in the same neighbourhoods.)

In 1985, Solanki increased OBC reservations from 10 to 28 per cent, incurred the wrath of anti-reservationists — and bagged 84 per cent of the seats in the election that year. The Sangh, now fearing that its patronage of the anti-reservation stir would alienate it from lower castes, gave a communal twist to the movement. A series of riots inexplicably broke out in the walled city.

The focus shifted. A section of OBCs were wooed and coopted into the Sangh’s upper caste alliance. Simultaneously, Solanki could not uplift the marginalised sections among the KHAM alliance — and disenchantment set in.

Thus, in the late Eighties, the BJP began invoking religious symbols to cash in on the dissatisfaction. Since tribals (7 per cent) and Dalits (15 per cent) constituted a substantial vote bank, the Sangh’s myriad outfits like the Vivekananda Rock Memorial and the Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram started working among tribals, providing relief and indoctrinating them.

The attempt to break tribal-Dalit-Muslim unity succeeded in 1987 when, during a riot in Virpur on the Kheda-Panchmahal district border, tribals attacked Muslims for the first time. KHAM had given way to the politics of religion.

This mobilisation was complete when LK Advani’s infamous Rath Yatra was flagged off on September 25, 1990 from the Somnath temple, its place in Hindu-Muslim communal history acting as the catalyst.

In 1990, the BJP’s alliance with VP Singh’s Janata Dal helped it increase its seats and enter the coalition government. And in 1995, the BJP was in power on its own. Gujarat was thus a successful test case for the BJP, proving the virtues of wooing the middleclasses and gobbling allies.

But why is the average Hindu Gujarati inclined towards extreme and divisive politics? Yagnik traces this to the rapid urbanisation of Gujarat: “This led the middleclass to see itself as a block. It realised that the Hindu identity could counter KHAM.”

Similarly, at the block and village level, the capitalist growth of agriculture and the White Revolution enhanced the prosperity of the farming community, which now wanted to express itself politically. Upwardly mobile farmers were attracted to the VHP and Bajrang Dal because they provided an alternative to subaltern politics. This has resulted in the BJP controlling the state’s powerful and rich cooperatives.

Even tribal and Dalit government officials (Gujarat Dalits have the highest literacy rate among their brethren — 61 per cent) find the Hindutva ideology resolves their identity crisis in cities, where the upper-caste dominated middleclasses scoff at lower-caste identification. Obviously, it also helps to get co-opted.

“Hindutva rhetoric wasn’t just meant for coming to power,” Vaghela points out. “The idea is to perpetuate it for eternity.” For this, the RSS needs yes-men in the BJP and government. This was the reason, claims Vaghela, he was sidelined despite building the party in the state. “I could have posed difficulties for their fascist mechanism of zero-debate,” he says.

Vaghela says even Prime Minister Vajpayee has experienced the RSS’ intolerance for debate. In 1980, he wrote an article, “Whither RSS?”, in a national daily. “So furious was the Sangh leadership that it decided to defeat Vajpayee in the 1984 election — and it did. Vajpayee seriously contemplated leaving the RSS, and even wrote a poem, Jayen to jayen kahan. (Where should I go?) But he missed the bus,” says Vaghela.

But RSS propagandist Mukund Deobhankar says the state is not being saffronised — because it was always saffron. “It’s only more visible now,” he claims, arguing that a Hindu state has its advantages: “If we grow, the minorities will be safe. For, the followers of other religions will have to share our vision of India and its culture. Then, we won’t mind accommodating two more gods (Allah and Christ) along with our 33 crore gods and goddesses.”

Deobhankar justifies the government’s decision to lift the ban on police officers and government employees joining the RSS. Agrees home minister Pandya, “When the chief minister and I are from the RSS, how does it matter if an employee goes to the shakha?”

But a senior bureaucrat in his ministry warns, “Those Hindu employees who don’t join the RSS will be isolated. And your RSS link will become a deciding factor in promotion. I am dead set against the move.”

Economist Meghnad Desai wrote about Gujarat in 1998, “Gods are worshipped in large social gatherings in much the same way as the British go to soccer games on Saturdays as a consumption display event.” When a government relentlessly pushes a communal agenda in a state such as this, the seeds of hatred are easily sowed.

Gujarat is clearly a laboratory where the RSS is conducting its communal experiments. Gujarat today, India tomorrow



Scary stuff, would you not agree Satish.

And yes, we`re back to the ol` `Screw you, Pakis, India/Bharat/Hindustan is best!`.

Re Asim Hayat and a few others:

This started as why Pakistanis have reasons to be proud of their country and has degenerated into the usual name-calling. I posted names of Pakistani winners of the Magsaysay Award to add to the list of those Pakistanis who have done their country proud. But if you insist on dragging India into this, I feel a need to respond.

The current Deputy Speaker of the House of Representatives is P. M. Sayeed (representing Laccadives Islands in the Arabian Sea). The insignificance of Laccadives (both in terms of land area and population) does not warrant giving this significant position to anybody from that Union Territory but the election of Mr. P. M. Sayeed to the post of Deputy Speaker does say something about the representative nature of the Indian Parliament.

The deputy leader of the House of States is Najma Heptulla.

The BJP, which is the rabid, foaming-in-the-mouth Hindu fundamentalist party, holds all of 45 seats out of 244 seats in the House of States. It holds 183 out of 545 seats in the House of Representatives. Thus, you can accuse 1/3rd of the Hindus of India as being rabid, masjid-demolishing, foaming-in-the-mouth, anti-Muslim bigots. That same party, which includes Arun Shourie, also includes Sikander Bakht. I am sure Mr. Bakht is considered the Uncle Tom of Indian Muslims by Pakistanis. I am wondering who would qualify as Aunt Jemimah - Shabana Azmi, perhaps? Jeez, she even acted in that movie `Fire` as the Hindu wife of a God-fearing man who had given up sex and thus had to become a Lesbian! She is no good as a Muslima!

The Indian Muslim League has been reduced to such incompetence that its only two elected members come from the southern state of Kerala, where it is called Muslim League Kerala State Committee, probably to avoid being painted with the same brush as those guys who demanded the Partition of India. This of course gives some of you guys who keep harping on Junagadh, Hyderabad and Kashmir, the opportunity to demand Moplahstan, except that you wouldn`t have learned anything from history. The creation of Pakistan has totally destroyed Indian Muslim League as a political entity and anyone who asks for any special privileges for any *religious * group is going to get nowhere in Indian politics. On the other hand, you find that regional parties based on *inclusion * such as Telugu Desam, DMK, Janata Dal, etc., manage to get the majority of seats from their home states and have reasonable representation for people of all religions. Thus, the Jammu & Kashmir National Conference (yes, I know; that puppet of India) has sent Karan Singh (a Dogra), Kushak Thiksey (a Buddhist) and Sharief-ud-Din Shariq (no prize for guessing his religion) to the House of States while electing 4 Muslims to the House of Representatives (including Hassan Khan from Ladakh which is predominantly Buddhist and wants to secede from Kashmir).

So, why don`t you guys go to http://alfa.nic.in/ and look at the names of the MPs from various parties? It might open your eyes when (and if) you realize that not everyone in the Indian Parliament is a member of the BJP, that the BJP`s hands are effectively tied when it comes to foisting a Hindutva agenda, that not every MP is a refugee Sindhi like LK Advani. The very names might tell you a little bit about how difficult it is to get unanimity of opinion on anything. Except the territorial integrity of India. Thus Kashmir, Nagaland, Mizoram, Sikkim, etc., can kiss their ideas of secession goodbye and sit down and work for the good of the people of their states. (The fact that they have all of 4 and 2 seats in the Lower House means that they have no voting power unless the hated Hindus agree to let them secede from India.)

I am sure you guys are delighted that you have left the tyranny of the majority behind when you created Pakistan. Of course you conveniently ignore the fact that a 35% Muslim population with majorities in Bengal, Punjab, NWFP, Sindh and Balochistan with very sizeable minorities in UP, MP, Andhra and Assam cannot be tyrannized by any Hindu majority, particularly when that Hindu majority is at odds with itself over language, allocation of river waters, share of finances, etc. But go back to your History of Hindustan according to the Pak Education Ministry and close your eyes to the reality of what is happening in Pakistan and in India.

As a whole lot of people are not tired of pointing out, there isn`t a long line outside the Pak High Commission in New Delhi demanding immigrant visas to Pakistan from any of the oppressed indian minorities. And there isn`t likely to be any change in that situation in the near future.

Now, can we go back to celebrating the common man of Pakistan?

pullu #91
Re` Bihar, I`d like to mention a humourous Hindi essay by Harishankar Parsaai which I really enjoyed on the topic,
``Hum Bihar mein chunaav lad rahe hain``
(from an anthology ``Urdu-Hindi Haasya Vyang``, Ed Ravindranath Tyagi, Rajkamal Pbacks)

The author describes what happens when Lord Krishna himself decides to take an hand in the state(responding to so many ;Hey Bhagwans; being uttered) and how His best efforts meet with so much frustration, the Indian Constitution and Bihar politics sharing the honors :-).
Cheers,
Sadhana

Asim

I know trying to answer people like you is like talking to a brick wall. I will try to reply, pointless though it is, because I cant keep quite in face of white lies coming from you.

Lets just see a few points, should we?

India has a one citizen one vote policy, all our minorities vote in wlwctions, represent people and become ministers etc. Pakistan has a separate electorate of 10 seats when there is a parliament at all, which is rare in itself. These `minority` seats even contain the muslims who have been declared `non-muslim` by the powers that be, such as Ahmadis. These people by law dont represent general populace, but only the minorities, and so are excluded from the regular public life.

India has separate personal laws for minorities which control their civil lives, including the right to marry four wives. All the civil rights availed by Hindus are available to the minorities. Pakistan has Blasphemy law for its minorities.

There is no barrier on Indian muslims to become anything in the Indian Union, and muslims have shown that they can reach any position, including the president of the republic, chief justice, navy and air force chiefs, richest Indian etc.

Minorities in India can establish and run their own educational institutions, without interference from the Government, a right denied for the majorities, prompting hindu institutions like Ramakrishna Mission to go to courts seeking minority status. (It was denied, by the way.)

The fanatic `frothing at the mouth` communal party like BJP seeks such `communal` things as a Uniform Civil Code, no special rights to any states, or group of people in the Indian Union. It has never asked for any special rights for Hindus. The `liberal` pakistani parties have got Koran and Shariah included as the base of Pakistani law, a source of the constitution of Pakistan. They have started Islamic Shariah Courts, and blasphemy law with mandatory capital punishment. The `communal` BJP in India has opened up the economy, boosted the IT, and is trying to put such `frothing at the mouth communal ` bills in the parliament as Freedom of Information Bill and Women`s Reservation Bill.

I guess it is some other group that is `frothing at the mouth.` But guess what? We dont care.

Mayhem!

You reminded me of Rashid Junior. In 1972 or 1974. Both Pakistan and its opponent were equal, even in extratime.

In sudden death time, Rashid Junior took off his shoes. And dribbled from half line to goal and made the goal. I think his village people made him shoes of silver (or gold)

The few other names, which come to mind are Sami-ullah, Shahnaz Sheikh, Haneef Khan, Hasan Sardar, Akhtar Rasul, Islahuddin, Munawwaruz-Zaman, Tanvir Daar, etc. I had lost interest (or grown too big) when the new generation like Shahbaz Senior came.

There is a synagogue in Karachi, great, are there any temples left. The great truth posting pakistanis on the chowk never mentioned that most of the temples in pakistan were damaged in an alleged spontaneous reaction to the babri masjid incident in india.

Read this from dawn of today to understand the religious contex of minorities in pakistan. Stop this crap about pakistan as a religion tolerant country, just say it is islamic.

THE issue of separate electorate for religious minorities in Pakistan is hardly a matter about minorities. It is indeed all about mainstream politics that is firmly couched in Muslim majority. Of course, there are historical reasons for various mainstream politicians to believe that separate electorate was somehow inextricably related to the Pakistan movement and the Two-Nation Theory. For ulema, there are Islamic reasons to support separate electorate inasmuch as politics . Politics has to based on the understanding of different faiths.

Re : Concerned and cliche.

Instead of elaborating upon and explaining your point of view, why are you lamenting what has been said before. If it needs be, explain it once more, if the argument carries any weight, it shall strengthen your argument. I, personally, would like to hear what you have to say, to defend the fair election of a rabid government, on top of making blase, and rather naive statememts about ``leaving religion behind`` in India.

Its the sheer futility of ``we are better than you`` approach that irks me up. Its the ability to mask out one`s own shortcomings and concentrate solely on the opponents weaknesses, in true hypocrite fashion, which irritates me. If need be, i would go so far as to state for the record that the usual ``holier than thou`` attitude suits neither of the two countries. Why must we be constantly at each others throats to defend our countries without regard to equitability, and justice. It`s a relatively pointless discussion if need to feel superior to our adversaries was our only objective. Two mnutes of pride at winning afutile argument is not going to change the stark, dire reality for both the nations.

About treatment of human rights, and minorties, let us just say we are both at ground zero, trying to lookup. Hence the useful saying,

is hemam mein sub he nangey hain

Asim

the same cliched accusations are hurled once more at indians about bjp and rss and vajpayee. in not too distant past some indians took great pains to explain what nda is, what bjp is and what congress was. what can be done by the indian govt and what can not be done. even after all this - newcomers and oldtimers alike discard all that and once again start from scratch to trash indians about `electing a fundamentalist govt`.

the lifelong rss memeber, hindu fundamentalist vajpayee can not dare to do anything that can even vaguely be construed as `hindu oriented`. however, the all powerful, kemalist, progressive, liberal musharraf continues to buckle under fundamentalist pressures and follows that up with daily invocations on jehad. ironic?

Very well written, you truly are an optimist. Too many of us, myself included, moan and complain not about Pakistan but about 97% of the Pakistanis who make the country the way it is. It truly is a beautifull country, yet Darwin`s `survival of the fittest` theory is taken to new thresholds in this land.

He/She who wins is the corrupt one, the evil intentioned one, and the decieving one.

I admire the Pakistani women who in a land of male domination have risen to face challenges.

I admire the men, who value loyalty and personal dignity above riches. You mentioned the great sportsmen of our country-I recall one experience that is testament to your statement.

I recently had the opportunity of meeting the captain of the Stanley Cup Champions, the Dallas Stars (ice-hockey for those who are unfamiliar with the team). His name is Mike Modano. When I told him I was from Pakistan-he said that all he knew of Pakistan was that the greatest hockey player (field or ice) to ever live was from there. He said that while he was trying to hone his skills, he watched the 1994 Hockey World Cup in Australia. He said he saw a player who played with more passion then anyone he has ever seen. A player who had the enduring notion and self-belief that anything was possible (remember his mazy runs from D to D?). Modano, thought that Shahbaz was paid upto $5 million a year (seriously)-but when he found out that the amount the Pakistani players make was nothing, he said it changed his whole perspective on life. Here was someone who had nothing to gain but gave his heart, body, and soul to his country. He compared Shahbaz to men in the NHL who refuse to play for their clubs (let alone their country)unless they are offered cash sums beyond our wildest dreams. He said that he has never met Shahabaz but will always admire him ``as one of the true greats in sport.`` A compliment of the highest order to a man of the highest order, a man of class, the man they call Shahbaz Sr.

These men and women are to Pakistan what Jackie Robinson was to baseball-a gateway to change, hope, and a better future.

There should be more people like the author in this world. People who believe that Pakistan can change-but that change only can come from us. We need to get rid of the hatred, jealousy, and deceit from within us-as a people. Only then will we take steps forward.

Dear Shandana by declaring that you are a patriot and then denouncing the nuclear blast in the same 30 volume library is baleful to the ears and the eyes of the Slaves of Allah. Is it any wonder that you all the pan Islamists are attacking with epithets of ``nationalist``. To the slaves : nazis were NOT nationalists they were Christians first adolf hitler was a fervent christian and the war was waged on behalf of a fundamentalist christians against jews , the Papacy and Catholic church supported the Nazis till the end. Naturally the christians like my fellow Muslims would never admit that it was their religion (and its sense of superiority and incitement towards violance) that caused the bloodshed . They will call you an anti Pakistani if you support human rights and peace.
It is a no win situation because they want to dominate and oppress and crush everyone else. I love Pakistan more than Islam and my fellow Pakistani than my fellow Muslim. If I had to sing peans (sp?) in favor of anyone it would be in favor of those who can love. It does not matter if they are americans, indians, jews, muslims or christians. If they can love , they can make themselves comfortable on my lap anytime of the day (or night, preferably night) BUT if I have to love someone outside Pakistan (and I do) than stopping at the Islamic community (instead of the ``pakistani community``) is a poor excuse for a stop (the scenery is quite vulgar and ugly to say the least). I would rather stop at the human community - ideally I would stop at the ``the community of those who are alive`` but the beauty of it makes me cry with tears of bitter memories -- partially since I ate a steak today . . . again . . . what can I say ? flesh is a weakness even though it cost me $60 for the meal for one person not to mention the hassles with reservations and the snobbish ambiance.

veeresh #123

Great examples. But I feel like advising that ultimately deconstruction may also a type of destruction, so in my humble opinion donot fall into such a `trap` even for the sake of making a point. Its like having to prove one is a dutiful son, say, and anyone and his uncle being able to chime in and say, ``but....`` Does such a discussion make any sense, ultimately?

I think you mentioned sometime ago on chowk, getting together with a group to help protect religious institutions. It was great to hear of it. That sort of stuff will eventually speak for itself, in my opinion, without any of your livestock being misappropriated :-).

Sorry for the interjection, however, if inappropriate.
Sadhana

Veeresh,

Judging by your myriads of reponses, they have got, it seems, more than your goat. Settle down old chap.

You claim that Religion does not having anything to do with India, or more radically ``India is going to leave religion behind``. I suspect you are using filters to selectively look at India, which is for all practical purposes a prejudiced approach. The facts, however, narrate a different story altogether, specially since the period of your last elections. Let me explain.

The mere act of BJP, a rabid, right wing(foaming at the mouth) fundamentalist party`s coming to power, would indicate anything but a non-religious indoctrination of politics. Such a victory is unthinkable in US for e.g, where similar right wing fractions are always making a big hue and cry, but the populace, knows better to entrust them with running the affairs of the country. So we have to think, if religious ``Hindu`` supremacist belief was not heavily entertained in your supposedly ``secular`` country, could BJP have risen to power? Your present government sadly, does not entertain the same thoughts as you would like them to have. Enough has been said by the likes of your ``Lord`` Thackeray, and Mr Fernandez, and that veritable bastion of scholarly journalism, Arun Shori, and with great approval from the junta at large for anyone with half an analytical mind to believe otherwise.

Hope you see my point. I am addressing the issue, in light of your repetitive ``claims``; not that we dont have similar ethnic discrimination problems of our very own back in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. You know what they say about,..``People living in glass-houses... should change their clothes in darkness etc``

Reading the lists provided by enthusiasts from both sides, i have arrived at a simple conclusion. Naming of institutions, and roads in either country is not to be contrued as being commensurate to the equality or welfare of the supposed minorties whose names are represented. Its an exercise in PR, at its best.

Regards

Asim H

RE Veeresh:

``At the end of the day, please believe me, religion is no big deal here in India, except with the lunatic fringe``

Stop hiding behind the ``lunatic fringe`` argument. You have a lunatic mainstream, and some people on the fringes of your society talk about peace and tolerance.

Your prime minister is a life long member of RSS. How much more mainstream lunacy can get???

Devkant and Satybadi types:

I have my reasons why I am proud to be Pakistani although I am from Blackburn. Find out where is this B`burn. Goris like me because I date them and give them whatever they ask for. It does not cost me anything except for some kisses. I get some kisses back. My Indian friends envy me and tell me that it is against Hindu culture. I understand, afterall, so many things are against Hindus these days. But they are making tremendous progress.

Besides, I do not have to put up with questions why cows are treated holy in India and called Mamma if we can not call an oxen as Daddy. I do not like such jokes. We in Kafirabad treat everyone as equals - be it elephants, goats, rabbits or cows. I understand very well why horses are so upset in India. The answer is - ``Because cows are treated so special``

Got my goat, this one on Muslim and Hindu names in India. So here is a real one, beat that:- my childhood friend, Babar Khan, great footballer when we were young and we did many things together. comes from a staunch Muslim family. So when he left the tea gardens way back in the late `70s and started a garment export company, he named it . . . Shivam. Because his family religious head told him that it would be lucky for him, and then anctified it. Today Shivam is big. Babar Khan is big.

We go party together here in Delhi, nobody cares what his religion is. Another Muslim friend i got, smaller exporter, after failing 4-5 times he started a company and called it ``Fatalist``. Now he does well.

So what does religion have to do with it??

rooster blues #112

Either you are totally confused. Or too rich all through your life.

Ghaddafi is a lunatic. So are Arabs.

The rise of middle class in Pakistan in 1970`s is related to the hard work of poor people, who went to Arabian countries. (As is true in India). But as a Muslim you should at least have some courtesy,for them if you are Muslim.

You know Arab servants eat with their masters. Not like our countries where they are treated as garbage. If you don`t understand their culture which is mostly tribal related and not slave mentality related like ours, it is not their fault (neither ours). But loathing them for their culture only reflects your state of mind.

The plight of our economy is related to our great neighbour, who due to its hegemonist design, pressures Pakistan into spending money on defense. This you should realize.

Don`t lick the boot which hit you. Don`t bite the hand that feed you.

As far as 1974 is concerned, there was going to be a Islamic block, the vanguard of which were, Shah Faisal of Saudi Arabia, Z.A. Bhutto from Pakistan, possibly Shah of Iran, Colonel Ghaddafi of Libya and possibly Yaser Arafat, in that background that stadium was named Ghaddafi. It was effectively killed by USA. Shah Faisal was murdered, Bhutto was eliminated by a coup and Ghaffadi was forced into a retreat by highhandedness of USA.

It was desire to build an alternative economy and Capital for the benefit of Muslim countries. And to form a Muslim block.

If your eyes are unable to see and your brain is unable to grasp, it does not mean you start, propagating a thing, which is just to have a good food with a man who has every intention to stab at your back.

But I doubt that you are Pakistani.

Who knows rooster blues is an Indian and masquerading as Pakistani.

Urstruly #115

You are missing one of the prestigious institution. Dow (Sir Hughes Dow) Medical College.

Rooster Blues - here are some more famous Muslim institutions in India, post partition and nothing to do with colonial hangovers . . . WIPRO owned by Aziz Premjee, Maulana Azad Medical College, 2nd to AIIMSc in India, VGJTI in Mumbai, 2nd to IIT-Powai, Hamdard all over the place, the film industy in Mumbai & Chennai, and most of all the Indian nuclear programme.

Once again, religion got nothig to do with it here in India, OK? Come and see for yourself, when you drive from Wagah/Attari to Delhi the road is known both as Sher Shah Suri Marg as well as Guru Gobind Singh Marg. But everybody still calls it GT Road or NH-1. How about that?

Oye-veh rooster blues . . . you and your synagogue in Karachi, probably run by Baghdadi Jews . . . not that it matters, but for all of you into daler Mehndi, one of the snazziest (but now unused) buildings in Pune is the main synagogue there, more frequently used for hooting and shooting song dance sequences especially for Daler Mehndi . . .

Beat that, tiger?

We also got a multi-religion ``Bhairon Temple`` right behind the Mughal Purana Qila which has a Hindu-Muslim joint deity where the ``prasad`` (offering is booze. I swear, come to Delhi and I will take you there. Biggest free party in town, now that`s what you call religion, right?

And finally, the main ``Ram Mandir`` in South Delhi is located on Lodhi Road. While Peer Hazrat Nizamuddin Auliya Maqbara is on Mathura Road, holiest of holies.

Why don`t you understand, we are about to leave religion behind in India?

Dear Rooster Blue and other Pakis on chowk . . . somehow this one has moved into, now, naming of streets, ships and stadia, as well as universities . . . please appreciate:

a) Naming is a great game in India. Religion is only one part of it. To give an example, during the Vietnam days the West Bengal Government renamed the street on which the American Embassy was/is as ``Ho Chi Minh Sarani``. True, ask any Bengali (Hindu or Muslim) here.

b) War ships in India are named after places or things, not people. Yes, there is the INS Delhi. Now is that a Muslim name or a Hindu name? Enough Merhcant ships are named after Muslims, in fact one of the captured Pakistani Merchant ships was renamed ``Ajmer`` for a while. is that muslim or Hindu?

c) Cricket stadiums, cricketers, bookies and fixers, religion or name no bar!

d) The Prime Minister of India lives on Race Course Road, which is another good Hindu/Muslim name. Race course Road is between Akbar Road, Tughlak Road and Shah Jahan Road. Beat that?

e) At the end of the day, please believe me, religion is no big deal here in India, except with the lunatic fringe and obscurantists, of which we have the normal percentage. Our population being large, we have more than others, that is all.

f) Finally, there are some secret missile programmes I do not want to talk about, the names for which have been drawn from religious texts of all sorts. Is Zam-Zam Muslim enough?

g) Many of us here in India dislike Indian movies. That does not make us less Indian or Muslim haters considering most of the movie industry is Muslim?

h) When will you Pakistanis understand that religion is not the only thing on our minds? For decades now the Fleet Street of India has been flip-flopping between bahadur Shah Zafar Marg and Deen Dayal Upadhya Marg. However, the area is still called ``ITO`` after the Income Tax Office there.

So, finally, what religion naming is that?

cheers, i got to go pray . . .

Let me jump in with the names of some prominent Indian muslims that come to mind--

What about two presidents of India--Zakir Hussain and Fakhruddin Ali Ahmed--nominally the head of country to whom the military reported.

The former test players Salim Durrani and Syed Kirmani.

The chief minister of the state of Pondicherry [that oasis when Madras was dry in my teens] was a chappie called Farook. You had this dude A.R. Antulay in Maharashtra.

Tons of politicians both big time and ultra big time including scumbags such as syed shahabuddin, Imam Bukhari and Sikandar Bhakt.

tons of bureaucrats and IAS types such as the former foreign secretary Salman somebody [Haider?] --sorry about not recalling the name, but he was during the Gucci Raj of Rajiv.

And of course, you`ve got tons of roads, towns and buildings named after various grandees. In Madras where I`m from, I can instantly think of Habibullah Road, Wallajah road, etc.

Funny thing though is that not many people think of them as muslims as such but rather as Indians who happened to be Muslims.

It`s one thing to be inspired by great people, but often we just elevate these great people to irrelevancy. Sure we all think higly of the mother Teresas and Edhis or come who may. How many of us take this high trust and convert it into action? Including moi, not many, I`m afraid.

In the end, who you are and what you achieve and do with your life matters. Not what your fellow countrymen do or who struck big. It`s one thing if that person is a friend or relative to shine on the reflected glory, but it all amounts to a bag of beans.

Cheers

RE: satish

Well you will be surprised there are bunch of institutions and minority recognition in Pakistan .. Now you seem like got irritated by my question… and institutions that you mentioned are mostly minority based any way.. I was talking about nationally established mainstream institutions, drawing comparison between Pakistani minority and Indian minority is apple and oranges (they both have vitamins!) … Indian minority is huge , Pakistani minority is a minority in itself.. that does not imply that they should have less recognition or rights… Indian science has lot of Muslim contribution in recent history( who is the daddy of Indian nuclear bomb?), yet we don’t here as much recognition…

Off hand I can remember ( I personally don’t remember many, the reason being that I have spent only about 3 years of my life in Pakistan ).. perhaps some one else like to contribute?

Dial Singh Collage in Lahore

There is a Blvd. In Queta named for Major Chritie (I think that was his rank) who was awarded highest military honor

Karachi, Lahore and other Pakistani cities have bunch of roads named after Hindus ( pre-partition)

Nankana (birth city of Sikh Guru)

And I bet a lot of Pakistanis would not know this either – There is synagogue in Karachi!

RE:
ASIM# 114
Satish# 113

Just to get the ball start rolling a few names that are non Muslim:

1. Gulab Devi Hospital
2. Sir Ganga Ram Hospital
3. King Edwards` Medical College
4. Nadir Shaw-Edulji-Dinshaw University, aka NED Engineering University.
5. Mayo Hospital Lahore

If anyone care to remeber that West Pakistan had only one University (Punjab University) at partition, So I hope we are immune from the blame of not having universities named after Hindus , however, there are several colleges that are named after hindus and other non-Muslims, one of them I can recall at this time is Dayal Singh College Lahore and several colleges in Sindh that I came across but cant remeber their names- probably Miliani can help us here.

Rooster Blues

It is difficult to offhand remember the names of Universities on minority people, but let me tell you a few. I cant tell about warships because I dont care for them. Though our chief of navy a few years back was Admiral Idris Hasan Latif.

Universities -

Aligarh Muslim University (A university having special status so that Muslims and Islamic organisations run it)

Jamia Milia Islamia (ditto)

Maulana Mazhar-ul-Haq University of Arabic and Persian, Patna

Osmania University, Hyderabad

Maulana Azad University

Zakir Husain University

Al Ameen Medical College

Al Falah School of Engineering and Technology

Barkatullah University

Jamia Hamdard

These are a few names I can recall of universities with Muslim names or named on muslim personalities. There are many more. Thers are literally thousands of colleges named on muslim personalities and hundreds of thousands of schools.

The main stadium in the city I grew up in, Patna, is called Moinul Haq stadium. The cricket stadium in Delhi is called Feroze Shah Kotla stadium. Another of our big stadia, I forget where, is called Maulana Azad stadium. Again, this list is very far from being exhaustive.

Now, lets hear from you. How many universities/ schools/ stadia in Pakistan are named on Hindus? Come on! even one?

RE: veeresh

I totally agree subcontinent-human does not get much respect in Middle-East or any where for that matter, being born in KSA and spending most of my adult on going life here in US I do find that we (that is Pakistani and Indians) are treated better in the western world. But we are not treated equally anywhere after-all ! As a Muslim ( and a proud one) I do not find anything common with Arabs (besides praying next to one), and although I don’t find a lot of common stuff with Hindu culture either, but it is a lot easier to communicate and draw mutual respect. I have been to Arabic to Urdu to English school systems, it was hard to communicate or befriend an Arab; they always treated Hindi and Pakistani as ‘Sawa Sawa’ (meaning Indians and Pakistanis are the same). I use to take offense in it until American Janam helped me to interact with more Indians (basically more Hindus , since there are a huge immigrant population in KSA). I did find a lot of things that we share yet disagree on more… cricket, marriages, relationships and movies ( although I personally dislike Indian movies .. not for being it ‘Indian’ but content.. but it’s a source of entertainment for lot of Pakistanis). Speaking of Arabs, Pakistanis do (mostly institutional rather than common masses) give more than due respect to Arab’ heritage’ .. why can’t we name Faisalabad Pours-Abad ( he was the brave son of Indus land) and Quadifi stadium after Dulla-Bhati ( stadium should have been named after a hero not a lunatic!) .. speaking of naming.. I don’t find India taking pride in its Muslims or other minorities … how many missiles war ships, universities, schools and stadiums are named after Indian Muslim/minorities notables? (please do point out if you have one .. I mean this in a constructive manner)

Shandana,

This was one good article! Thank you for outlining the main accomplishments of the people with courage....There are many more who are in the shadow of some village or in a goverment offfice and live a life or utmost truth and sincerity...a little prayer for them too...

Wassalam,

Aisha

Vereesh #108: I agree wholeheartedly. Everytime I travel internationally, I make it a point to avoid Saudia Arabia. My one hajj experience there was enough to understand their views about Pakistanis.

veeresh #108.

hear hear!!

Been watching this article and the inter-action . . . what I don`t understand is why so many Pakistanis who come and discuss stuff at chowk and elsewhere want be proud of an Arab heritage? The Arabs have never considered any of us, from India or Pakistan or anywhere else, as one of them. When we go to the UAE or Saudia, Indians and Pakistanis (amongst others) are lumped together as D-grade humans, let us not be under any illusions about it, and religion has nothing to do with it, either. Go to a place like Dammam or Jeddah on a ship, and you could be Indian/Pakistani Hindu/Muslim, you will still not be allowed ashore.

Point I am making is that this article is GREAT! We in India are proud and very glad that you as a Pakistani are proud to be Pakistanis. Similarly, Pakistanis need to understands that we in India are proud to be Indians. Religion has nothing to do with it, ancestry even less.

There is a simple truth in this.

RE: Slink,

FerozK # 106, Observer# 104

Dont you love those critics/supporters who somehow find hidden meanings, in a piece of writing, that never occured in the wildest imagination of a writer?

Re: All Interacters

I think that Shandana`s intent of being a proud Pakistani was not and should not be interpretated in a political sense, but rather within a humanist context. I think, and please correct me if I am wrong, Slink, she was saying and trying to prove a positive aspect of being a Pakistani, which had nothing to do with the currency of war and death and highlight Pakistani accomplishments, which could stand on their own.

In my first post, I had mentioned my reaction to the article and having followed Slink`s articles over some time, I was under the impression that this article was a knee-jerk reaction to the ``When Mountains Move`` article. In all honesty, I found the other article, to which Slink responded, to be nothing more than a narrative chronology of events which lead to Pakistan irradiating a large tract of its native soil!

There was nothing wrong in Slink`s article, because in a larger sense, she was via her article celebrating the human spirit; the bon vivant to live instead of celebrating the tools of mass dstruction and mutually agreed upon pacts of national suicides. The article should be seen in that light. It is the human spirit, which is keeping the dream, called Pakistan, alive.

Unfortunately, as is the habit on Chowk, the article was viewed through the narrow prisms of nationalistic fervor and painted, as usual, into an excuse to brandish a sense of patriotism. There is nothing wrong with patriotism, though I think it is has been responsible for more deaths after religion in history, but sadly all the interacters on Chowk, either Pakistanis or Indians, wear their patriotism on their sleeves and their continued pledges to it sound shrill most of the time like the empty slogans, which echo across the lenght of South Asia, ``...full of sound and fury signifying nothing...``.

The article was about the human spirit and not about scoring nationalistic points.

Ciao!

Re: Abu-Bakr Usman

Jamaati thaaa
Tufail-e thaa
Ghafoor-e thaa
Mudoodi thaa thaa thaa!!

Yes, bibi, it is mushy, shamelessly contemporary, unthinkingly an attempt at being philosophical, with an aawurd injection of unsuccessful wish to sound literary.

The statement, as it stands as a whole, is so old and musty, so meaningless, so incosequential in its stated or deduced and assumed objective -- and, the misfortune of having been understood so by your readers -- that one cannot but help question, even in a neutral sense, the reason, the motive, the t`ook for writing such an essay. Or, such an essay with such a title.

You know, and I do, that this essay has nothing to do with Pakistan, nor with your reasons to love it or with its claim, however weakly and impotently, to be loved or being lovable.

You are addressing fetid questions, already asked from times immemorial, in terms no better than the so-oft-used malodorous cliches, that it becomes a test of the qari`s patience and the degree of the ability to keep sense of shame in abeyance long enough to read it in its entirety.

At the level of a general statement or an analytical commentary the essay would have had a low claim to respect, yes, even effectiveness, in terms of the ``variables`` I allude to above. At an abstract level, perhaps the claim would have been stronger, though still weak.

Most unhappily, it seem to have been offered as a substantive statement and the readrs [of only a few of whose ``Replies`` I was able to read] seem to have taken it to be a ``realistic``, physical question of description; in its literal sense, that is.

I am no teacher. I say what I feel, as a reaction to the reality I encounter and experience. I call something a spade if I feel I see a spade. You are more experienced and very well educated, it appears. {Not every body gets to be tutored by a Khalid Sahib Ph.D., you see!)

By looking at your list of previously written essays and columns, it also appears that you are a prolific writer.

If you haven`t already, then you are bound to keep giving sustenance to Pakistani journalism and literature. In the final analysis, if you are doing work which makes you feel proud of yourself, and you have helped develop conditions in your society that allow you to do that job unfettered and in conditions of freedom and feelings of independence, then, that alone is enough to make you feel proud of and in love with such a Pakistan. Best wishes.

Sheesh Naag (aka Dildo … ) Man or what ever your existence is … where did I say that I am more learned than Mr. Kamal .. now I did not know that you are his TATAA .. all it was a simple observation .. you made all that conclusion of it .. I did not criticize the desi accent it was again an observation I have no problem with it al all .. And to what ever radio station I listen to is my business.. your business is to find out where was your mama when the lights went out in NY .. your DNA might help!

Abu-Bakr Usman!

Although, Maulana Mowdudi as a scolar, writer is great, and his contribution in the form of Jamat-e-Islami is great in the sense, that he was probably the first Muslim scholar who realized the importance of democratic institutions.

I don`t know how many books you have read. But his approach is to say in one sentence.

Since Islam is natural and good, so it needs to be implemented. I have seen many conversions, who became very militant Islamic.

In our student days, during Zia era. Jamiat launched a movement for their Karachi Nazim Saif-ud-din. Not for the justice to be served according to Islamic principles. But to take back cases of murder against him.

One of our great Mujahid used to spend their night on telephone with their girl friend and in daytime would beat the hell out of NON-MUSLIMS like us.

One of our Mujahid, who used to have good times with nurses, would threaten us, out of Islamic piety.

So, I have seen all the piety and Purdah.

Piety and Purdah is for others to adopt.

For you everything is Halaal.

As far as Khurram Jah Murad. I think he is now some something in Jamat-e-Islami research wing, and research on the search of Maulana Mowdudi.

And Khurshid Ahmed is respected because there is no such thing, as Islamic Economics and he is a big scholar on that.

(Any way in current debate on non Interest based economy, I have seen many prominent names. I don`t remember his name).

Will you forget to mention your honorable Mian Tufail, who is also one of your SCHOLAR, and said about westernized women that THEY SHOULD BE DRAGGED ON STREETS WITH THEIR HAIRS.``

And Maulana Mowdudi used to consider only teaching and doctors profession as honorable. And used to consider nurses and other professions as belonging to whores.

I think you need to read more. Not just a course of ``Rafiq`` (after reading of which you can put only what you have done)

Gymnosophist # 86

Although, it might sound wierd, that Abdus-Salam is highly respected in intelligentia.

But, his being belonging to a certain sect, put him at a disadvantage.

Who wants to associate themselves with Taleban, even though they might be doing some good job.

I think there is a saying in Urdu and I am pretty sure in Hindi also.

Bad Accha Budnaam Buraa.

Bad is good, but notorious is bad.

Who can fight the Pakistani establishment.

Arshy #70

Madame NoorJehan, no doubt a very good voice and a good singer, but she has too many thorns in her feather to be considered anything apart from her voice.

Bilal #87

I have to disagree with the point you raised.

When ethnic violence was at, at its peak in Karachi, Edhi`s ambulance would be there in case of emergency. People would leave unwanted babies at his ``jhula`` instead of killing them. The list is endless and heart moving.

Considering the way Edhi started, his mission. Considering the passion, when he was at his social work at his wedding night. etc etc.

Although, it is controversial these days. But I remembered the lone voice in widely read newspaper of Irshad Ahmed Haqqani against Zia`s Martial Law, when everybody was selling the conscience for thousands of rupees.

The people like Adib Rizvi, Ansar Burney etc whose commitment to their mission is beyond any doubt.

With our life revolving around our family and personal interest, these people are a beacon of light and if not worshipped, but are to be kept in high regards.

For appreciation of their efforts and as a beacon of light to others who want to tread a path of self sacrifice.

sheesh-nag:

push-factored?

care to elaborate?

we may learn a thing or two!

rgds

t

aaf#92

What do we guys think? I do not know about the other ``guys``, but this guy thinks that the Kamal ka aadmi is better read and informed than you are.

Electricity plays the same part in your country that T.V. played in the United States and the U.K. Not all of it, mind you, but do some stepwise analyses.

He even knew his his his history better: He remembered the great ``New York Black-out`` and the ``standing room only`` in the New York Hospitals` obstetric wards and related facilities nine months later.

In contemporary society [beginning with 1968, when I first saw, nay, experienced, a vibrator in Tokyo], the drop in fertility [measured in terms of all contemporary indices and measurements] is inversely related to the availability, sale and use of vibrators in these countries.

Since from your post it appears that you are attempting your ``hand`` at comedy, the following may be of some use to you:

Q: With the availability of the best possible vibrators, [including the Shiatsu], why do women still marry?

A: Because the vibrators don`t mow the lawn!

[Also, while talking over the cellular telephone, to your driving girl/boyfriend, if the volume of the sound become faint, don`t panic or be surprised!].

* * * * * *

To what heights of self-elevation were you attempting to raise yourself, by referring to the speaker as one with heavy Desi accent, by changing his name from Kamal Ahmad to ``Kamaal ka aadmi hai[!], and you, the bonafide Desi, so sophisticated as to be listening not to any WKRP radio, or, WXBT, or KXLX, but to the National Public Radio. You can take...

Oh, man, what a hoity toity people, we the push-factored immigrants try to be to overcome our status inconsistencies !

I searched the site for the Magsaysay Awards and found the following people from Pakistan recognized for their service:

Abdul Sattar Edhi 1989 Public Service

Bano Bilquis Edhi 1989 Public Service

Sir Henry Holland 1960 Public Service

Asma Jahangir 1995 Public Service

Akhtar Hamid Khan 1963 Government Service

Shoaib Sultan Khan 1992 Community Leadership

Syed Adibul Hasan Rizvil 1998 Government Service

Tasneem Ahmad Siddiqui 1998 Government Service

well.....i coulnot agree more dear shandana:)

i couldnot agree more.

i m glad that u replied to that ``sentence`` in a positive way which was sensible. take care

Asim,

Thank you for the info, I stand corrected.

jay.

Having returned from Kerala after attending a wedding where the contract for the `pandal/shamiana` was given to a muslim, where the catering was done by a muslim, where I could take photos of a few muslim women in hijab having food in banana leaves in a temple precinct, I cannot but wait to sink another dagger into the TNT and the correlates of it.

I recognise the need for the articles of this type where an attempt is made to infuse some pride and purpose to a confused nation of bigoted versions of a religion. But politeness, platitudes and chivelry should not mask stating the underlying reasons for this pride steroid.

Pakistan guided bt the TNT has created a version of history following the narrow trail left by islam in the indian peninsula and in that process has pilloried the civilisation at Mohanjedaro and the institutions at Taxila. TNT has abbrogated any pakistani claim anything pre-islamic.

In a society where ancient names of cities are changed to `Faisalabads` and the good old `Imran Khans` are changed to Ismail bin al Mohammeds``, there is nothing much left for the pakistanis to be proud of from their history. In that context, attempts to present the fairy floss of Asma Jahangir as steel wool is commentable and so are the efforts to push straw men on to pedestals. But in the searing heat, in the incessent rains and the dropping from the internet, none of them will remain a source of pride for a generation.

Look for results, look for achievements, however small it might be, in ones own personal lives for a source of pride. A pakistani, proud of pakistan, gene splicers are still at work....

....``reach into a listener’s heart and play *ping pong * (?) with its beats`` ?!??!?!

great stuff nonetheless. as they say, ``keep writing``!

re. rooster-blues # 88

I laughed till I cried. Such are the ``chosen ones`` who officially represent Pakistan abroad. Going by such twisted logic, one can say we are perhaps the only breed of humans on earth who use electricity as contraception! Another reason to be a proud Pakistani!

All too often the people we are really proud of rule little more than our hearts.

Since we are talking about pride and stuff… I just came back from lunch and I had to share this with my fellow chowkies .. I was listening to public radio (in Chicago) and I detected this heavy desi accent slamming US over Kashmir ? guess who he was .. Ambassador Kamal Ahmed ( I think that’s his name ) .. Mr. Ambassador in more or less words summarized the whole problem as the ‘unwillingness of US initiative’ in the region … Mr. Wonderful kept repeating ‘the ball is US court’ .. how could it be a US concern when India denies any reference of Kashmir in Pakistan-India relationship and Pakistan insist that the only part its playing is ‘moral’ .. ?

I can make this a long post but it will end up ….. .. you know where

When asked about the problem of the population in Pakistan , Mr. Kamal (Kamal ka Admi Hai!)

Said .. that we did bring down the rate of population growth and the main reason behind that is electricity … and I said wha?? What ? .. and Mr. Kamal Ka admi explained that since most of the villages in Pakistan did not have electricity in the past ,.. the nights use to be longer and that was the main reason behind population explosion ! .. now if I am interpreting it correctly (keep in mind that I am analyzing sales numbers all morning) Mr. Ambassador blamed ‘horny village population !

What do you think guys??

Bilal: #reply 87

You have veered towards idealism. But isn`t a person Great because others

are/were not so Great? So even if we cannot emulate them, isn`t acknowledging their

achievements and their greatness, in itself a service to society? Albeit a small

one.

I read the article on the day it appeared but I could not relate to it. After I read

read your reply, I could feel the pain,anguish and disappointment over things that at times seem beyond our control.

I suffer from the same feelings of frustration whenever I think of my native state of Bihar.

There is a nice incident that happened in one of my rare journeys to the ``killing fields of the east``(bihar). The train was packed with people and so was my coach despite it being a reserved one. It was one fast moving caravan.

There was this young bihari who was studying Law in Lucknow and was entertaining strangers around him with his witty statements about Law schools.

Just when the train was aprroaching Bihar, he got up and shouted loudly, `` Welcome to the Country of Bihar``. And all of us broke out in a huge laughter.``Country because``, he continued, `` the writ of the Indian constitution does not run here. Rules of Law and Order are separate and our politicians here a few notches above of even the Indian politicians.Aur samaj ke baare mein kya

kahein, Hum aur app hi tho hain.``

There was silence all over and he was smiling.



This sums all that I feel and share bilal with your reply and Shandana`s article.



``There is little to talk about its future,

There is nothing to talk about its present,

Here I am, with a dead past in my lap;

Bihar, where tears run dry,

And sorrows run deep;

A widow whose sons have died young.``

until next time,

pullu

Shandana-

Now how can one be proud of a failed state? a state that has denied basic human rights to its citizens??

Since we are talking about pride and stuff… I just came back from lunch and I had to share this with my fellow chowkies .. I was listening to public radio (in Chicago) and I detected this heavy desi accent slamming US over Kashmir ? guess who he was .. Ambassador Kamal Ahmed ( I think that’s his name ) .. Mr. Ambassador in more or less words summarized the whole problem as the ‘unwillingness of US initiative’ in the region … Mr. Wonderful kept repeating ‘the ball is US court’ .. how could it be a US concern when India denies any reference of Kashmir in Pakistan-India relationship and Pakistan insist that the only part its playing is ‘moral’ .. ?

I can make this a long post but it will end up ….. .. you know where

When asked about the problem of the population in Pakistan , Mr. Kamal (Kamal ka Admi Hai!)

Said .. that we did bring down the rate of population growth and the main reason behind that is electricity … and I said wha?? What ? .. and Mr. Kamal Ka admi explained that since most of the villages in Pakistan did not have electricity in the past ,.. the nights use to be longer and that was the main reason behind population explosion ! .. now if I am interpreting it correctly (keep in mind that I am analyzing sales numbers all morning) Mr. Ambassador blamed ‘horny village population !

What do you think guys??

RE: Reply #: 86 gymnosophist

``Re Abdus Salaam, how has India treated any person of Indian origin before he received the Nobel Prize? I remember Hargobind Khorana being denied a readership in Biochemistry at some University in Madhya Pradesh on the basis that his undergraduate degree was in Chemistry``

The fallacy in the argument put forth is this: in the case of the stepmotherly treatment meted out to Khorana et. al., it is clearly a case of bureacracy/babudom reaching the exquisitely absurd heights that is only possible in the sub-continent whereas, in the case of Salaam, it is the result of a pogrom initiated by the state against a community in effect trying to exorcise them off the face of Pakistan for their beliefs.

This is not to deny the subtle and not so subtle attempts at discrimination that you describe that occur on a daily basis in India (and, I`m sure, in Pakistan). Those that are ``proud`` of their motherland, be it Pakistan or India, have obviously not gone through the grindmill of eking out an honest living there. I have immense respect for people like Asma Jahangir, Edhi, Azim Premji, Narayanmurthy etc. who have maintained a straight path where the temptation to short-circuit the system to get ahead is such an easy and viable alternative.

nostalgic and nationalistic....nothing innovative in this peace of writing.

....these warm, fuzzy thoughts are probably present in the hearts of all Pakistanis who grew up there but lets not beat the drum to ourselves. Who are you talking to? The disillusioned degree holders paddling from office to office looking for jobs - or to the disabled beggars who are looking for food and shelter? Does this elite population of Pakistan, who reads the internet and newspaper articles, need to be old why Pakistan is such a worthy country?

...our problems are immense and the few people you mention would prefer more hands on help than singing praises in their honor. unfortunately all of us have always been used to singing praises for others, perhaps wishing that someday somebody wil do the same for us.

....Our praises for people are not going to change our lives and our futures. The meritorious deeds of Asma Jahangir and Edhi have to be integrated as a part of our everyday lives, and not story book tales. I have always heard people sign praises of Edhi. How many of them have ever tried to emulate and create another Edhi? Shandana - Have you? We need to move away from idolizing the few people among us who have seen the ``light`` of civic responsibility. We need to educate ourselves that we all need to see the ``light`` soon or there is nothing but darkness for us.

-B

p.s. About taking private tutions in Karachi. While you spent your dad`s money listening to flute instead of learning Math, did you ever think of those students in your class who could barely pay the tutions of St. Pat`s, KGS etc but could never afford those private tutions even when they could have learnt so much from them?

I just watched the interaction to see when an Indian would jump in and say something nasty. I am delighted to see that my compatriots unfailingly meet the low expectations I have for them.

Re Abdus Salaam, how has India treated any person of Indian origin before he received the Nobel Prize? I remember Hargobind Khorana being denied a readership in Biochemistry at some University in Madhya Pradesh on the basis that his undergraduate degree was in Chemistry -- as if there were any BSc degree programs in India in Biochemistry when Dr. Khorana was studying for his bachelor`s degree. On the other hand, once somebody wins the Nobel Prize, the Indians show a level of reverence that practically amounts to butt-kissing. Look at the positions offered to Khorana or to Prof. Chandrasekhar after their Nobel prizes. Why is it that they had to leave the country to be appreciated for their work? It is because you have screwed up your entire university system with caste-based politics. If Abdus Salaam was mistreated in Pakistan because he was an Ahmadiya, at least the Pakis are consistent. (I know that consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, so don`t you go searching for Bartlett`s Book of Quotations.)

Has it ever occurred to you folks that there has not been a single Indian-born Nobel Prize winner who received his award for work done in India since Independence? (Don`t trot out Mother Theresa -- she is Albanian by birth.) Everything has been done to snuff out creativity in our school system so that we can turn out single-minded drones who can goose-step from kindergarten through Grade 12 and move on to a degree in engineering and a career in talking in tongues (such as Java and C++). And they do it with not a care for the poor. With their billions, do they endow a single elementary school in a backward region? No, they give millions to their alma maters so that they can get their picture taken with Vajpayee. I have far greater respect for that cab driver in New York who has started a school in his hometown in UP and spends every penny he earns on that school.

So, shut up already and let Shandana celebrate what she finds worth celebrating while the rest of us techno-geeks can take pride in our nukes, missiles, and IITs.

Asim Hayat #81

``He died a Pakistani.``

Isn`t it ironic that a lot of Pakistani intellectuals take pride in A. Salaam kept his citizenship till his death? No intellectual had the guts to say that while he was alive. Asim, yes all the GOPs were to blame but the ultimate responsibility rests with the society. Can you show me one concerted effort, demo, civil action in support of Salaam, or for that matter against the constitutional injustice to the very community that actively fought for the creation of Pakistan?

FYI, today`s Dawn is reporting that a religious organization has asked that the 10th grade textbooks should remove all references to Salaam, or state that he was an apostate. The daily also reports that the Education Ministry has already given instructions to the authorities. Wonder all those proud ones will respect the dead Salaam as much as they did the live one! A.H., please this is not intended for you personally.

This article must belong to the category of the very best writing not only at Chowk but on all of the Net. I am not a Pakistani. I am an Indian, and proud to be so. But reading this spirited lyrical-radical affirmation of patriotism by Shandana Minhas, I too felt proud of the Pakistan she has described.

SK

I do agree that everyone has the right to have a view.But what is written in this article is shameful publicity of certain persons who have a slave mentality and seem to be impressed and glittered by foreign ideals.I can`t bring myself to say that rights of women and oppressed are not sacred and fighting for them is in anyway an ignoble or less important task.But I think that I am proud to be a Pakistani because of certain people who due to their inherent intelligence, assiduous pursuit of truth and commitment with their ideals fought for whole humanity. I mean people like Syed Abul-Ala Maudoodi, Khurram Murad,Dr. turabi and to some extent Dr. Tahir-Ul-Qadri. I can`t say that I agree with everything they say or do, but I do think that the concept of Islam they preach and practise makes me a proud Muslim.

I`ll try to dilate upon this topic in detail with facts and logics as soon as I get time.

In the meantime, I do say that dear writer, please spend some time in reading the ideas and story of the struggle of these people.

These few names are just gist of hundreds of such scholars and lakhs of their devoted comrades.

God bless everybody and may grant us the vision to see the truth.

I, for the time being, propose everybody to read Syed Maudoodi`s book ``Purdah`` and if you have difficulty in reading Urdu as most english medium school products have, you can read its english translation `` Purdah and Status of women in Islam``. It has been translated by Prof. Khursheed Ahmad, another eminent scholar and soldier of truth.

Assalam-O-Allaikum.