Chowk@Three: Opening Minds, Winning Hearts

I think Chowk is one of the best site anyone can ever come across.

Regards,

Aisha

Dear Chowkwallas (and especially Chowk Staff)

First and foremost, I want to be on board and yell out ‘Naraa-eeeeeee –Sadaqat’ : ‘Chowk zinda baad’.

The last three years are a monument to the spirit, courage, devotion and commitment of a very special group of people who are the ‘hidden hands’ behind The Chowk. I have had the pleasure to personally meet one and have electronically communicated with a few others. You are all hero and heroines.

We’ve all had our ups and downs, we’ve all loved and hated what we’ve seen and perceived here, but The Chowk has continued to grow and evolve.

It is almost the 26th of August in my time zone and this article has been on the front page since the 14th. It is now at the very bottom and may get bumped off tomorrow. This is quite reasonable. I’m so glad that the rapid-fire era of a few months ago, when articles were going from the top to the bottom of the front page in 24 hours, is over. That, for me was the lowest point of this site. It had also degenerated into a constant bickering match between the factions of Pak-Bharat jang enthusiasts.

I thought at the time, with a real sense of loss, that Chowk was over for me personally, because what it was fast becoming was something I wanted to have nothing to do with. But I was wrong.

This is a virtual community. And any community is only as good or as bad as the individuals that make it up. I couldn’t have been the only one who felt the same disappointment and thus was not alone. This made me come back because I feel this virtual community has enough diversity that each of us can find like minded individuals to exchange and share our views with.

There have been excellent suggestions for the editorial staff to mull over. It is a huge task to undertake and you cannot go wrong if you continue to experiment and be flexible and sensitive to the feedback of the community members.

So keep it up, O Chowk, and boldly go where no one has gone before!

Live long and prosper.

…SR

dude I wasnt even aware of the speaker`s corner and I have been doing this for 2 years! So now I feel a bit foolish :)

I got catchin up to do....

will be back!

the happy one #31:

No, shouldn’t have ‘chimed’ in. Now I know one Staff member who would smile, relax and sit back!
Did a quick scan of gumball site. It appears like another one Harish introduced me to at the atlantic poetry post/riposte. And I marvel at the calibre of responses.

Digression: I feel apart from the logistics here, another inhibiting factor for Chowk is the desi-maaN/behan factor. We desis are not known for displaying restraint and tolerance. Before you can say jana.mana.gana they start off fancying the mating habits of the other’s maaN/behan.

Digression: Go to the SPEAKER’S FORUM, bottom left of the screen and read some relevant comments on the current page and then some more around the #120 marker. (if you have not done that already)

And then you will have a feel of what has been discussed before. Perhaps then you should come with some distilled ideas and we will round up more interactors to discuss it.

As for commissioning articles from established writers, I should have added the caveat that they must interact. Otherwise there wasn’t any point in the exercise.

Varsha takes no prisoners. I like that, without necessarily agreeing with her. Did you read Dilip D’Souza today?

later...

rgds

t

Re: T #30

I`m actually glad you chimed in. As rare an opportunity as it is to have a tete-a-tete with the esteemed Chowk Staff, I was rather hoping to interact with fellow Chowkwallahs on these very basic issues.

The Chowk Staff, by defining their role as that of a `neutral party` or as that of `facilitators` have unequivocally stated that a lot of the onus of defining the `character` of Chowk rests on the interactors. I am disappointed that the interactors don`t sense that power or responsibility... no one seems to want to discuss it!

Regarding the enormous workload that the staff faces, I think they have to solve that one pretty soon. The site is getting more and more popular and the queues are getting longer by the day. They need to either expand their staff or appoint volunteers from amongst the regular interactors. Then of-course there is the option of making the cue a public domain. What are your thoughts on that? Have you been to gumballpoetry.com? They have a magazine that runs independently of the public `self-posting` area, which is a great area for writers of varied skills to post up `in-progress` works and get input. Sure a lot of work tends to be rough-hewn but that alone has its own charm.

Regarding established writers getting `commissioned` to write here, I think that Chowk has pro-actively avoided that whole deal. In a way I am really glad that Ayaz Amir or Pritish Nandy don`t write here. For one they wouldn`t even interact! Why do you think Hoodbhoy & Udaykumar don`t interact? Its cuz they think they are big shots and need to stay `above-it-all`. It wouldn`t be a Chowk anymore.... more like a freakin panchayaat! But I do share your fascination with Ms. Bhosle... she would, I suspect; relish the interaction!

Later.

The Happy One #29

(Pls. allow me to interrupt)

You wrote:
[3. Indians and Pakistanis submit roughly equal number of articles but the Pakistanis are quite simply the better writers. (As somebody whom providence planted to the east of the LC, I am distinctly uncomfortable with this possibility ;)]

You know why? If you go by the population percentage than this `roughly equal` spread is uncomfortable.

But even if it were true I am only temporal not (the)happy (one.)

The criteria here, I suspect with occasional lapses, is the quality of form and content though sometime editorial leanings to inject a direction in debate seems like a rushed, spontaneous decision; where the articles selected from the inventory on hand do not live upto the usual standards.

Also, I would bemoan the workload at Chowk, if I may? Being inundated with unsolicited articles (they mentioned 360+ p.m.) being overwhelmed by them, they do not have the time or resources to solicit commissioned articles.

I am sure there are established professional writers out there who would jump at the chance to come here if handled correctly. The exposure here is unlike any other exposure.

I share your disappointment with writers who do not inter-act. This is an inter-actvie medium. Makes me wonder why they write here at all.

regards,

temporal

Reference [Reply 27]

There are over a dozen articles that get submitted every day.

There are over 100 emails that are received, filtered, read, processed and deleted. Many of these emails contain articles, comments, abuse, threats etc. These emails are other than the ones originating form special interest groups who have Chowk as an address where they send everything that they publish.

We choose the content without bias. The name certainly matters - articles written by s.x. * * are rejected outright. Articles submitted by Salman Rushdie are rejected outright :=) Anonymous is very unpopuar. Writers who do not have email addresses that are verifiable get rejected. Plagiarized articles get rejected. And so on.

Chowk is not perfect. It is entirely possible that Chowk has overlooked a great article. Not because of bias, though.

Chowkstaff:

Congratulations!

And sincere thanks.

Reply # 23
Pardon my misspelling of ``Congratulations.``
-- Bila Ahmad

My tribute to chowk!

In Pakistan my morning did not start without reading ``Jang``

For for last 6 months my night does not finish without interaction on ``Chowk``.

My wife says ``You are still here``

Why chowk wants to destroy my family life. I have no idea.

Good job and congratualations!
--Bilal Ahmad

Re: Chowk Staff #21,

Thanks! I think you are going about this just the right (IMHO) way. I like your approach to let the users decide the identity. I have noted how you instigate this debate off and on by publishing articles regarding this topic. I think that should happen frequently because as you pointed out the identity of the people who use the site changes over time and this sort of debate has to be had every so often to hold `referenda`.

It is indeed interesting to see a lot of my fellow chowkwallahs try to attach a nationality to this site. Maybe they are just unwilling to grasp the concept of such a virtual community/ organism and fail to understand that this is not a conventional `magazine`. I like to bring up the corporate paradigm because I have noticed that desis (especially back in des) tend to look at American companies with full or part desi ownership as `desi` companies. To me that is as laughable as saying that Chowk is Pakistani.

On another issue... have you considered reflecting your `Chowk` and `Avenues` paradigm in the graphics of the site? Right now it just looks like any old magazine. I know that being a high access site you don`t wanna go overboard with graphics and make it sluggish but I think if somehow the graphics, iconography & link structure could reflect your `Chowk/ Avenues` paradigm strongly it would be awesome. Any graphics overhauls planned in the near future?

With reference to Replies 16 to 20:

What is the politics and identity of Chowk?

We want Chowk to find its own personality - an emergent personality. To a large extent Chowk is an adaptive purposeful system akin to a living organism. The second dimension called InterAction! lends Chowk the character of a street theater where things happen on the fly. Chowk is real-time journalism, Chowk is antithetical to manufactured consent. We try not to control for the sake of any particular ideology, philosophy, ethnicity.


Chowk is an intersection, a meeting point, a town square. There are always more travelers [those who stay for a few months and then move on] than residents [the regular voices]. Residents have their own leanings and biases. Often these leanings resonate with the travelers.

Chowk does not have a gender, color, religion, orientation, etc. How can it? It is a Chowk.
Residents and travelers are the ones who make Chowk look a certain way on certain days.

There is no bar on what is written - in general we will not let Chowk gravitate to the level of the lowest common denominator.

On the thorny issue of India and Pakistan, North and South - Chowk does not editorialize or promote any message. The residents and travelers have to only abide to the simple rules of Chowk disucssions.

Chowk may not have a visa to enter but it certainly has a passport for identification and passage. On that passport there is no picture, no statement for religion, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, limitation for entry and exit, color, identifying marks, etc.

Specifically, lest you think Chowk does not have a specific position - Chowk is left of center, modern, rational, independent of doctrine and dogma. We will not preach or allow religious fomentation, jingoism and nationalism, including fascism, etc.

Happy one!

I said this because this site has a pure Pakistani character, with infightings, biases, good thoughts, geniuses, elitist,Islamists, middle class mingled together to make it behave like this as we behave in our country.

(All the cut and paste job done by Mohajir are mostly from Pakistani Newspaper what he/she thinks is against Pakistan)

With turning it into a south asian site, there is a risk of it becoming a oneliner. Justifying our own Government.

And another thing Krashid:

Let`s say you went and worked for a company in the Silicon Valley which was founded by 5 Indians and 1 Pakistani. Let`s say that company had 6 vice-presidents 4 Indian and 2 Pakistani. And let`s say that 50% of the employees were Indian, 25% Pakistani and the rest were sundry. Would you feel that you were working for an `Indian` company?

I thought the whole aim (may not be the original aim but it is fast assuming that mantle) to this site was to demonstrate that when Indian and Pakistanis are thrown together they do not automatically get divided by a fault line. So far the way the interacts go it seems like Chowk actually proves that that`s exactly what happens. But every now and then one sees sparks of hope. To me those are enough for now and worth building upon. Have you not noticed how new arrivals to the site are more rabid but slowly tend to get toned down?

Dear Krashid:

This is an important debate. So let`s talk about it nice and calm.

A few questions for you based on your post.

1. Why and How is this a `Pakistani` site?

This leads to the general question... can websites have a nationality? And if a website can have a nationality... what are the parameters that govern or define that? Where the server(s) is located? Nationality of founders? Nationality of operators? Nationality of users?

These are all great questions. The only way for me to determine the `leaning` of Chowk right now is to believe what the Chowk staff says. And they say over and over again that this is not a Pakistani site. Are you disagreeing with them? Or are you of the opinion that a Chowk is a living and breathing community whose identity is beyond the control of the operators, and since right now most writers and interactors are Pakistani therefore the site is Pakistani?

2. You say that asserting a `no nationality` for the site is tantamount to `repeating Kashmir` here. How so? If this is true then the staff is actually responsible for `repeating Kashmir`.

Regards.

Happyone #16

Please leave the Chowk as a Pakistani site.

You don`t want to repeat Kashmir here.

You are most welcome.

But this is a Pakistani site.

Dear Chowk Staff:

Allow me to chime in with the rest and congratulate you on creating an incredible virtual community. Others and I will watch with great interest the evolution of this site.

This place is so awesome that it had a large part to play inspiring me to try and express my feelings verbally and graphically and what I learn from mingling with the incredible group of people here actually influences the content of my creations.

Thank you all for facilitating my growth as a human.

Now onto the questions the Chowk staff asks us and my own do paisa on them:

1. Nationality or `Leaning` of Chowk:

This comes up off and on when a Pakistani nationality is asserted on this site. I have argued vehemently against this notion over and over again. I don`t think Chowk is a Pakistani site. Its creators may be primarily Pakistani and its visitors may be mostly Pakistani but that still does not mean that Chowk leans to the West of LC. Time and again the editorial staff has defended the likes of me in these debates and it is greatly appreciated.

2. Dividing the site up by region or content:

I think this is quite a good idea. The structure is already in place in form of the avenues.

Currently one arrives at the Chowk and the articles on the main page lead one to the various avenues like Chaathouse and Leafy Glade Inn. The `Town Square` and `Avenue` paradigm fails because when one does click on an article that belongs to a certain avenue, the hyperlinks on that article do not emphasize other articles of that avenue.

I think it would be much better if one looked at the site as many chowks organically connected. This would allow people with specific interests to go to the Chowk that they are in the mood for. It is pretty obvious from the current situation where once an article drops off from the front page the responses stop completely. I think if there were five different front pages by content than the number of articles with active participation would pentaple (is that a word? :)

3. Self -Posting articles to avoid long queues:

I think this is a great idea! Basically it`s a way of letting people see the queue as it moves up. What if all the Chowk submissions were to be in a public area reserved for self posting and then while other people browsed it, the editorial staff could review it simultaneously and pick a handful as `featured` pieces on one of the Chowks? Please go to sites like Gumballpoetry.com to see how an `edited magazine` can co-exist with a `self posting area`. You could use a basic automated sensor for self-posting like you have for interacts.

All in all I think that if there were 25 high profile articles on Chowk displayed so that the linking is prominent and intuitive it will be more fun. I also think that segregation by content is a good idea. And self posting would rock.... you could even have a `live chat moderator`

Dear Chowk ,

A.O.A

I have become a ``chowkwalla`` by design two days ago - though I have been lurking on the periphery for the last 6 months or so.

The experience with my first `interactivity` has been every bit as fascinating as you have implied in the overview.

Yes, please do let the meandering Chowkwallas to roam free, their spirits soaring and their orb ever-expanding.

There would be some falls; is`nt that part of the

human endeavour and discovery trail?!!

Carry on into the next millenium!

Three cheers for your Staff and the coordinators/moderators/comptrollers -- whatever you may call yourself!

Regards,

Mateen

Thanks Chowk staff for creating this great site and for keeping it growing in the right direction.

Thanks for stressing the guiding principles of Chowk, especially at a time when there is frequent & intense debate among the chowkizens on the lines of what/who is allowable/not allowable...

Wish You Many more Happy return of this day!

Dear Chowk Staff,

Once again I`d like to thank all of you for the effort you have put into this site. I`ve been a regular chowk reader for 2 years. The quality of certain writers on this site is so good that I have a better appreciation for a well written piece of prose or poetry.

I`ve also enjoyed taking part in the interacts with people from around the world and look forward to more of this in the future.

Regards,

Fozia Zaidi

thans for bringing the chowk dream all of us

THANKSSSSS AAAA LOTTTT!!!!!!! AND A HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!

Chowkwala..

Adnan.

Two years ago, I accidentally found this site, what I liked about it, was the quality of articles and their Interact responses . I`m hooked since then and enjoy it as much as the time permits. I admit I dont interact that much but still like being a part of this cyber community.

A Job well done! Happy 3rd B-Day and many more to come.

Well wishes

Moez

Chowk Staff:

A very happy birthday to you all.. You guys are legends.. Keep it up!

All the best!

cheers,

Fairdinkum

I have been away, but couldn`t pass up this opportunity to congratulate you on a job so well done. My best wishes.
Aliya Saeed

Great job!

You guys are GRRRRRRRRRRREAT

happy birthday Chowk

happy independence day Pakistan & India

You guys are GRRRRRRRRRRREAT

happy birthday Chowk

happy independence day Pakistan & India

Jash-e-Azaadi Mubarak

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/metro/chicago/printedition/article/0,2669,SAV-0008140026,FF.html

PAKISTANI POLITICS, PRIDE FUEL PARADE

AS CHICAGO`S PAKISTANIS CELEBRATE THEIR HOMELAND, THE SUBJECT OF KASHMIR IS NOT A WORLD AWAY.

By Evan Osnos

Tribune Staff Writer

August 14, 2000

With an old garbage can, some green plastic wrap and a bright red cardboard cone to represent an atomic warhead, Pakistani college student Syed Ahmed brought one gust of a geo-political squall to West Rogers Park on Sunday.

Half a world from the political fault lines separating Pakistan and India--but just hours after the latest bloody clash between militants in the disputed Himalayan territory of Kashmir--Ahmed arrived at Chicago`s Pakistan Independence Day Parade with the mock missile strapped to the roof of his car.

``It`s just saying that we`re powerful too,`` said Ahmed, 22, of Lincolnwood, not an official member of the parade but one of at least two revelers who mounted cardboard bombs on their cars and cruised, horns blaring, through the North Side`s Indian and Pakistani neighborhoods. ``We`re not making a fight here, but the world needs to be aware.``

Watching from across Devon Avenue, though, Mehdi Kahn fumed.

``That has no place here. No good,`` said Kahn, 32, who emigrated from India five years ago. ``That`s for nothing but to make conflict.``

More than two years after their two countries added nuclear arms to their decades-old territorial feud, Chicago`s Indian and Pakistani communities still thrive together happily, working and living side by side with little visible friction. As in past years, Sunday`s parade to celebrate the 1947 partition of the two countries drew supporters from both sides.

But amid a summer of mounting global tension over long-disputed Kashmir, which has been racked by separatist violence since 1989, some in Chicago`s Pakistani community took Sunday`s festival as a chance to voice their politics.

``The [model] missiles are not to scare anybody, but to tell everybody that we are now a nuclear power,`` said Razah Don, 32, a Pakistani cabdriver who wrapped himself in a flag proclaiming, ``Allah is great.``

Parade organizers said they intended no political message this year but understood if residents used the celebration to express theirviews.

``Here we are, thousands of miles away, but our hearts still beat with Pakistan,`` said Javid Kahn of the parade committee.

Above the festival bandstand at Warren Park, where people gathered after snaking along Devon and Western Avenues, a single new portrait had been added this year to the pantheon of Pakistani leaders showcased in years past. Between portraits of Mohammed Ali Jinnah, the nation`s founder, and celebrated poet Muhammad Iqbal, sat the picture of A.Q. Khan, Pakistan`s chief scientist credited with producing its nuclear arms.

``For us, he is as much a national hero as the other two,`` said the parade committee`s Kahn. ``It is not about politics.``

In the parade itself, there were only scattered flashes of international politics between the waving politicians and floats.

Looking little different than the adjoining floats for a gastroenterologist and a travel agent, the brightly festooned entry from the Kashmir Solidarity Front was covered with smiling children and their parents.

They waved and passed out fliers: ``Kashmir--Happy Valley, Valley of Death.``

``This is a free country. We are making our voices known to the world on this important issue,`` said Nazir Mirza, 60, as he distributed a flier urging Muslims to boycott Indian merchants.

Just up the road, though, many younger revelers scoffed at the politics. That`s nothing but the grist of old hatreds, they said.

``It`s doesn`t matter to us--here we`re all mixed together,`` said Indian-American A.J. Kahn, 17. Kahn and four Indian friends hooted joyously and pulled their car onto Devon Avenue, with Pakistani flags in hand overhead.

Happy 3rd B-Day Chowk!

Since the last 2.5 years, you have been my fav site and I am so sorry that I missed 6 irreplaceable months of Chowk!

Continue with the your work and keep the minds stimulated and engaged with your articles!

All the best to you as you start towards your 4th year!

Keep on impressing us and thanks a zillion for everything!

Ciao!

[Contributed by Amitava Kumar - to appear in a newspaper]


Chowk: Where Subcontinentals Hold Talks By Amitava Kumar

Whether there is a ceasefire or not, there is a place where Indians and Pakistanis can always meet for chats. On www.chowk.com, no on comes home in body bags.

It was at midnight, in the moment that joined August 14 to August 15, that the website was launched three years ago. It was the fiftieth anniversary of India and Pakistan`s independence. A few weeks prior to the launch, two engineers living in California, Safwan Shah and Umair Khan, decided that ``the world needed some spicing up.``
Today, there are 4000 visitors to the site every day. The webmasters say that there are also more than 10,000 page hits daily. Pakistani and Indian expatriates make up 70% of the readership.

Although the inventors of chowk are proud of the fact that sites like rediff, sulekha, or chaitime came much after their own site, the site`s real strength might lie elsewhere. On chowk, Indians and Pakistanis are in constant conversation, even if that conversation so often resembles the real-life bickering between the leaders of the two nations. Unlike the latter, however, this conversation never stops.

This conversation can be bitter and even a bit bizarre. A review of a novel can, for example, turn into a discussion of the relations between India and Pakistan without any reference to the review or even the novel!

Suddenly, it makes sense to take note of a poll being conducted on chowk at present. It asks visitors to the site to cast their vote on the following issue: ``Indo-Pak articles provoke discussions that are 1. Useful 2. Useless 3. Neither.``

At the same time, the fact that any issue can be hijacked to discuss Indo-Pak relations suggests that such discussions are necessary. And, more important, that conversations between people from both sides of the border are taking place, despite assertions to the contrary.

Not all participants in the discussions, or even the contributors, are partisan. In the aftermath of the nuclear tests by India and Pakistan, pro-peace writers like Pervez Hoodbhoy, S.P. Udayakumar, Beena Sarwar and Zia Mian posted useful articles on the site that were widely circulated.

When asked about the future plans for chowk, the organizers say they want ``to keep focussing on issues that are generally shoved under the rug.`` They are also interested in drawing attention to ``the rights of women and other minorities`` as well as ``biases against gender and sexual orientation.``

In the meantime, however, the worsening situation in the subcontinent and the strife over Kashmir is likely to hold sway. One Indian writer on chowk recently said that after writing a piece on the site, there came ``a response from an otherwise absolutely sane cousin, hey chump, why are you writing for a Pakistani propaganda site?``
Chowk might be one of the very few places which raises such questions publicly and provides answers to them too.

Amitava Kumar is the author of Passport Photos [reviewed on Chowk] and a regular contributor to chowk.

All Chowk Associates

Pass me a small slice of the cake ----mmmmmm----congrats!

More meaningful thoughts later.....

regards,

temporal